Giving dogs Cannabis for medical reasons

[t-dub]

I guess Im on the other end of the spectrum hearing countless stories of 'the dog ate my stash'.

Makes me remember this little episode . . .

Pedro: Man, what is in this shit, man?
Man Stoner: Mostly Maui Waui man, but it's got some Labrador in it.
Pedro: What's Labrador?
Man Stoner: It's dog shit.
Pedro: What?
Man Stoner: Yeah, my dog ate my stash, man.
Pedro: Yeah?
Man Stoner: I had it on the table and the little motherfucker ate it, man. Then I had to follow him around with a little baggie for three days, man, before I got it back. Really blew the dog's mind, ya know?
Pedro: You mean we're smokin' dog shit, man?
Man Stoner: Gets ya high, don't it?
[Song, "Rockin' Robin" plays... ]
Man Stoner: I think it's even better than before, you know?
Pedro: Uhhh, I wonder what Great Dane tastes like, man.

t-dub

 

[stroh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNTUlsOYuPU

 

[tdavie]

Ok I started the thread so I'll chip in with a couple of peer reviewed papers.

1. Journal of Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology. Pages 363-372, July 1973. Rats didn't fare too well, but not a single mortality was noticed in dogs or monkeys using doses ranging from 3000-9000 mg/kg body weight. That's 3 grams to 9 grams of pure THC. Per kilogram.

2. Clinical Toxicology [Clin. Toxicol.]. Vol. 46, no. 5, p. 384. Jun 2008. Out of 431 anecdotally reviewed veterinary cases, 1 dog was found to have died (Tom's note; the cause of death is not given).

I don't want anyone to give their animal something if they are not completely comfortable doing so. Or knowledgeable. Or both.

Tom

 

[franky2222]

my dog ate about 10 roaches from the astray when he was a puppy and when i came home he was puking and when he sat up he was wabbling from one side to another ,,,scared the shit outta me but afterward he was fine , hes likin his ass now LOL,,but yea dont give that to your dog

 

[Havelock Vetenari]

Overtoking a dog is almost cruel.

Almost?
Given the unfortunate lack of trustworthy data on this,i'd always recommend very high caution against playing vet yourselves.
The dosage is in no way comparable to human for starters,dogs have different digestive systems and this also greatly varies per size/species of the dog(for instance you can't simply give a two times smaller dog,a halve dose,it's a bit more complicated than that alas).
I'm not saying it couldn't have some good applications,but i am saying there's a lot of BS out there on the internet.
Big doglover and owner myself,just some precautionary advice not to let dogs become victims of our wellmeant,but inexpert administrations.

 

[akwardsauce]

Heh i give my bird pot, ill smoke a bong and blow some onto him. Its a sulphurcrrested cockatoo and it bloody loves weed. Itll move into the cloud of smoke, itll try to eat my buds when theyre on the table, andhe stsrts singing all the songs that he knows, really funny as he gets all talkative, dances heaps when music comes on and hes ripped, its really quite fun to see.

I thinkhe obviously enjoys being ripped, as he gets rather pissed off if i dont blow any smoke his way when im toking as i try not to get him baked too often.


He also says the word hydro alot too.

Oh well i think its better thsn giving the bird alcohol as some people do.

i would actually pay to see a youtube video of this in a theater...

EDIT: if you already happened to have a video of this, that is...

dont really make on one my behalf...you never know how this could be received by youtube viewers...it could be a hit, you may just get a lot of negative ratings & comments, or they might make you the michael vick of birds...

id bet that you would get a shitload of views for any of those above reasons...

my thoughts to bird-man:
1. vapor is probably better than smoke (for dogs, birds, and anything else that breathes, i would imagine)
2. small doses of vapor are probably safer than edibles for certain pets (esp for their digestive systems)
3. and if you know your bird's personality (which i assume you do, since you are its owner), you probably know when its having a good time (dancing, acting "happy", etc)...so maybe its ok for occasional/rare instances, but always be gentle?

those are just my thoughts...im not an expert. ive seen a dog get a little vapor exhaled for it & it just took a really nice nap for about 45 min. it was alert during the nap & responded when called. still was motivated enough to do "tricks for treats". id say no harm in that situation.

EDIT: no stumbling, wobbling, drooling, breathing issues, freak-outs, physical differences, or atypical behaviour was noted from the dog (i paid attention to all of these things out of curiosity/concern - i did not dose the dog myself & it wasnt my idea or dog)

but every animal is different & has different personalities...so be careful not to hurt/scare your buddies!

 

[WatTyler]

I saw this on tv and looked it up;

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dv...or-pain/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/735878

A Seattle company is working on the development of a pot patch for pain control in dogs, cats and horses that could be rolled out to the market by the end of the year.

While its reported that medical marijuana use in people has gained in popularity in last few years, a veterinary pain management expert says transdermal use of marijuana could have a place in a veterinarians armamentarium.

It actually really could be beneficial if its something that is well developed, says Dr. Lisa Moses, VMD, Dipl. ACVIM. Moses serves on the board of directors for the International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management (IVAPM) and leads the pain management service at Angell Animal Medical Center in Boston. The problem with a lot of stuff is that we know theres a lot of things that should work, but because of manufacturing sloppiness or poor regulation on a supplement, we dont know if our patients are getting what we think theyre getting.

The patent rights for the marijuana patch were obtained in February by Medical Marijuana Delivery Systems (MMDS) of Seattle. The product will be marketed under the name Tetracan, according to the company, for transcutaneous delivery of medical marijuana to humans and animals.

"Tetracan will become the dominant identity for medical marijuana across the United States and throughout the world," says MMDS spokesperson Jim Alekson. "The industry needs to shed the word 'marijuana,' and focus on the holistic, therapeutic pain relief benefits of topical applications."

Fifteen states, plus Washington D.C. now allow human medical marijuana use. Those states are Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. Six states are considering allowing medical marijuana use, including Illinois, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Medical marijuana influences the cannabinoid receptor system, which was identified in the 1990s and found in the most primitive animal forms. The cannabinoid receptor system is the most widespread receptor system in the body, according to the National Pain Foundation (NPF). It has receptors in the brain, spinal cord and periphery, as well as on immune tissues. Molecules called endocannabinoids are produced by the body and interact with these receptors, much like endorphins interact with the body's opioid receptor system. The cannabinoids may help lessen pain and affect a wide range of symptoms and bodily functions, according to NPF.

But the benefits of medical marijuana are still up for debate. In June, the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) ruled there was no accepted medical use for marijuana, and the U.S. Department of Justice announced that it was reinforcing federal restrictions on the drug. The clash between state and federal laws on marijuana make it nearly impossible for physicians in states that allow its use for medicinal purposes to prescribe the drug without violating federal laws. In fact, by prescribing the drug in states were medical marijuana use is permitted, a physician could lose his or her license, according to NORML.

Moses says she isnt sure what legal complications may accompany medical marijuana use in animals, but thinks many veterinarians would be hesitant to carry it in their clinics.

I can certainly see a lot of veterinary clinics being worried about diversion and abuse, Moses says, adding if DVMs could write a prescription for clients to get the drug from a drugstore rather than the practice, I bet it would be more accepted.

But aside from the logistics and regulatory concerns, Moses says she would be interested in learning more about medical marijuana for pain relief in animals. If the patch truly allowed veterinarians to give their patients proper doses of the active ingredient in marijuana, Moses says it could help increase appetite, reduce nausea, improve overall energy, control pain and promote an overall feeling of well-being.

There are definitely reasons to believe the active ingredient in marijuana affects certain pain mechanisms in the nervous system, she says. Its something I would definitely be interested in trying if it was available to me.

 

[Havelock Vetenari]

Holistic...brrrr.
Lisa Moses VMD, DACVIMMoses, CVMA
Certified in Veterinary Medical Acupuncture
And again...sticking needles in animals,with no scientifically provable effects of acupuncture in people other than the phychosomatic(real and significant as those effects may be,IMAO certainly not therefore applicable to animals,with quite different mindsets about being subjected to pain)...BRRRRR.

Don't get me wrong,there might be usefull and sensible applications,but i'd rather see them being put forward by people of a somewhat less questionable nature. :/
Just my 2 cents.

 

[StickyShisha2]

Dr. Lisa Moses serves on the board of directors for the International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management (IVAPM) and leads the pain management service at Angell Animal Medical Center in Boston.

 

[Ghostcula]

Weed, ABV in particular can be very dangerous for dogs, definitely not recommend

 

[Havelock Vetenari]

Dr. Lisa Moses serves on the board of directors for the International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management (IVAPM) and leads the pain management service at Angell Animal Medical Center in Boston.

Therefore she must be right?
Nicely named the International Veterinary Academy of Pain Management,quite a mouthfull,but i'm not very impressed myself.
And yes i am quite a sceptic,mea culpa.
I do believe there is a limited effect in humans subjecting themselves to having needles stuck in their flesh,although that IMO would be totally due to the placebo-effect and not due to any real physical changes etc..
Humans also have the ability to make their own decisions about these things,animals however are sadly completely at the mercy of our ministrations.
As they cannot speak for themselves,i'm throwing in some counterarguments on their behalf and would like to plead with all animalowners to think,think,think and please think again before using any alternative 'medicines'.

Some things to consider :
From the AMA(1997) :
Critics contend that acupuncturists, including many traditionally trained physicians, merely stick needles in patients as a way to offer another form of treatment for which they can be reimbursed, since many insurance companies will do so. Critical reviews of acupuncture summarized by Hafner and others conclude that no evidence exists that acupuncture affects the course of any disease...Much of the information currently known about these therapies makes it clear that many have not been shown to be efficacious. Well-designed, stringently controlled research should be done to evaluate the efficacy of alternative therapies.

From the NIH(1997) :
Despite considerable efforts to understand the anatomy and physiology of the "acupuncture points", the definition and characterization of these points remains controversial. Even more elusive is the basis of some of the key traditional Eastern medical concepts such as the circulation of Qi, the meridian system, and the five phases theory, which are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information but continue to play an important role in the evaluation of patients and the formulation of treatment in acupuncture.

This was quite good Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial and on quackwatch you find a lot more info.

 

[WatTyler]

It's not really anything to do with acupuncture? That just seems to be one of her alternative interests. She is still well qualified and seemingly respected vet. It shouldn't really reflect on her professional abilities regarding established theory and practise- there have been plenty of brilliant experts with ideas that are slightly unconventional. In a sense that's partly how we make progress. I'd say prefer my doctors and vets to be open minded progressive rather than ultra conservative.

Also, in fairness to Vet Moses, as far as I can tell she has just been used as a recognised veterinary pain expert to give an opinion on the product for the article for Veterinary News, and has simply said that it has potential, rather than actually being the one pushing the product.

I can absolutely see your point though HV- it's a bad and immoral idea for stoned pet owners to take it upon themselves to medicate their pets in a haphazard fashion however they feel fit. No argument from me there.


(finally, I'm not really into my alternative therapies at all, but I understood acupuncture to be one with the most potential- Acupuncture: An Evidence-Based Review of the Clinical Literature, DJ Mayer, Annual Review of Medicine, 2000 seems to be significant in that it has 130 citations according to google scholar, and finds evidence that it is "effective" in 2 given conditions, or "may be useful" in another 12 conditions. I have no strong opinion either way, but this is enough for me to keep an open mind for now....)


(edit to add- also worth adding that this 'Tetracan' patch isn't psychoactive source

....getting high through smoking or eating marijuana is one of the potentially unwanted side-effects of medical marijuana therapy. TETRACAN transdermally delivered products are able to provide the same level of pain relief with none of the side-effects of marijuana use.

)

 

[ktx49]

i'm sorry but anyone who subjects another conscious being(a dog) to mind altering substances without their consent or knowledge...its just wrong.

not to mention all the problems cannabis can cause for canines, just think about what your doing....imagine if when you were like a real young kid(like 6 or 7 years old) your parents spiked your brownies without your knowledge?

 

[BudderScotch]

While I personally think getting any animal high for the hell of it is just plain fucked up, I occasionally give our 55# 8 year old German Shepherd Dog small (1/4-1/2 pat) doses of cannabutter for anxiety. Prolonged fireworks and thunder get her so worked up she is hard to handle. A one or two doses and she mellows, but is still fully alert. We've been doing this for six months and have observed no adverse effects. It is also more effective than anything we ever got from the vet. I am concerned about the toxicity issues, but since I only use it occasionally, and in small doses the benefits outweigh the risk. It would be great to find some unbiased research being done on this subject. It may be just the thing for those high-strung, yappy little ankle-bitters.

I wish I had known about the therapeutic uses of cannabis four years ago. Our ten year old female GSD was suffering from Degenerative Myelopathy, Breast Cancer (Adenocarcinoma) and separation anxiety so severe she would chew raw spots on here fur. We had to put her down at 13. There is no effective treatment for DM-only diet, exercise and pain management. With breast cancer our only option was removing the tumors and hope for the best or subject her to chemo. Even if I could have afforded the $10,000 cost of chemo, I wouldn't want to put her through that. Had I known about Rick Simpson oil as a possible cancer treatment, I would have given it to her.

Perhaps whatever toxic substances there are in marijuana are water-soluble and don't wind up in an extract like butter or oil. Although there are differences between humane and canine physiology, a lot of the drugs prescribed to dogs are the same as those prescribed to us for the same symptoms. For example: morphine, benedryl. NSAIDs and amoxicillin. It seems likely that our pets can receive medical benefits from cannabis similar to what we get from it. Thanks for starting this thread tdavie.