Gathering thoughts on a concept for a future vaporizer.

[Vaporware]

@Dan Morrison Sorry, I probably wasn’t clear enough about the bimetallic disc thing being a suggestion for salvaging the original idea of this thread by allowing you to use a torch or other heating method on the heat battery and still hit the right temp.

Sounds like you’re pretty done with that idea anyway, but I think it’s still a good point to clear up!

I think something like this could work with just about any heat source, but it may not be the ideal choice for battery power.

 

[fangorn]

A Nomad or Toad could always be fitted with a longer pipe-like stem.. maybe that's enough to bring the pipe vibes back in.

I feel like I'm not on topic at all... but too bad...

I love the idea...or rather part of the idea...
maybe you could use the heating from your existing vaporizers... in a pipe design...
I know that Pipeline managed to integrate 18650 in their ecig pipe...
I don't know how this could be technically possible of course... (I imagine that a block with the heating would clip on top of the load..)

you have already worked on an excellent heating... and from what I could understand... "you manage" in the craftsmanship of pipes" (ahaha)

I'm salivating just looking at the concept...

 

[Dan Morrison]

@fangorn I've seen the pipes that have integrated 18650, and 18350s... but they just don't do it for me. I've drawn every which way of fitting a battery into a pipe... and it never feels right, haha.

And yes... the logistics of fitting a convection heater in there as well, with electrical contacts... it's quite a challenge. I've pretty much given up on the idea of an all-in-one pipe.

@Vaporware I get you now!

_____

Alright, what about this idea then....

A wand vape. Yes... I poo-poo'd the wand concept... claiming that it wasn't "cool" to two-hand operate a pipe.... but maybe I have come around on that.

A wand vape, with a cord, that is attached to a small cylindrical base. This cylindrical base would house four 18650s, with a DNA 100c Chip for regulation and TC.

The wand would be quite nimble, and use my heater technology for on-demand TC convection. The heater would be many times larger than what is possible with my Nomad/Toad unregulated design, so this would aim to compete with desktop power.

Instead of heat soaking a high mass heater, it would instead be an on demand style heating... so temp stepping between hits would be possible without any waiting.

This portable unit would include some sort of power cord retraction and wand storage, so that it could be packed up as a self-contained unit to be brought outside. Perhaps the size of a thermos or water bottle.

 

[Vaporware]

That’s a pretty interesting idea! I am hoping I’ll be good with the Toad/Nomad for portables in general, and I think they’re the more practical for every day use, but if you have the time and space to sit down and use a kit like that it could be great!

Unless you had help making both at once, my guess is the Nomad/Toad line is the most useful to the most people.

On the other hand, you do small batches of unique vaporizers (including the Okin which fit a certain niche rather than having mass market appeal), so delivering another unique portable would fit your brand. I think there would easily be enough interested people to keep a small shop going if it had desktop level power.

I’d be one of them, although again I’m guessing it would be something I used on trips and stuff, or maybe around the house rather than trying to carry it around every day. The size and weight would just be too much for comfortable pocketability I think.

If you looked at other battery options, that might change things on the portability front, but you might have to make custom housings rather than using bare batteries for some other battery types…

It is an interesting idea though, and I’m sure anything that made it through your design/prototyping/testing phases would be well worth checking out!

 

[MoltenTiger]

I really like the idea of the wand system, beyond the battery idea. Heat on demand is practical enough to negate needing multiple heaters like the battery/hotplate idea, plus it can compensate rather than cool down during the hit. It's nicer IMO if the temp ramps up as a vape is used rather than ramping down.

A wand vape system could be based off of a 12V or 20V power rail, then it can be supplied by a mains power supply or USB-C PD via battery bank (PN: QB823 for up to 65W, laptop specific battery banks and emerging models will handle more power) and triggered by a ZY12PDN (PCBA capable of 100W DC output) something like this would be very versatile with just the chamber and heat exchanger requiring development and production.


This is the kind of set up I needed last night. Travelling with the V3 Pro but I forgot my WPA
Native 14mm and more power would have been very good to have!

 

[Dan Morrison]

@MoltenTiger I was actually considering the power bank idea.. but ran into the roadblock of not knowing how to get the power to flow on demand... i had no idea those ZY12PDN chips existed!!

That is a total game changer. I think the power bank source is an AWESOME idea. A 30000mAh bank would last a very long time, and would be very portable around the house. You've got all the built-in safety, fast charging..etc..

AND, a power bank like that would be so handy to just have around... for charging things. It would be a no brainer to pack on a camping trip.

I also like the idea of the mains power option if you wanted.

I also think it would be enough to just have a power source that has a constant output, maybe adjustable, essentially one step above unregulated. And skip the whole idea of TC with a DNA style chip.

With a wand, and the types of pipes I am imagining, you'll be able to view the herb chamber as it's being vaporized. This visual guide makes it so much easier to use an unregulated heater. IME, it takes practically all the guess work out of it. And with a constant output power source... you get a bit more consistency vs. purely unregulated.

 

[kanal]

I dont know if its allowed to post links here. But for Eds WoodScents there is a "Travel Light Controller" available thats basically the chip and a LED dimmer to control the power. This makes the Log kind of mobile. I think thats similar to the way you are heading.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@kanal, Yep, that's essentially it. For the wand, The usbc cable would be connected directly from the wand handle to the powerbank.

 

[MoltenTiger]

I dont know if its allowed to post links here. But for Eds WoodScents there is a "Travel Light Controller" available thats basically the chip and a LED dimmer to control the power. This makes the Log kind of mobile. I think thats similar to the way you are heading.

That's pretty cool - I might have even mentioned the trigger board to Ed a while ago. Looks like that's what going on there.

The chip is reverse engineered and somewhat bootleg (guessing it would at least seem that way to the IP holder [I think Qualcomm]).

But it's such a good way to go to get portable DC power. I use it with a soldering iron, and occasionally a dust buster vacuum. After I got it I realised I don't have many 12V appliances. Have hooked it up to the legacy grasshopper with a dummy battery and slotted adapter. Not enough grunt with only 65W to power the hopper io. Wasn't worth it to try different USB C sources as they were quite expensive a little while back. Things have changed since, with more universal high power demand and GaN semiconductor tech changing the market every quarter. If supplying a full system, it used to make sense to use DC Jack connections (like the WS) but now it is getting close to where an affordable mains brick can be bundled that the device ships with, with the device only needing a USB C header. The user can source the battery bank themselves, they've still got a ways to go until 100W is easy to source for the right price.

The beauty of such an affordable PCBA set up is they have already developed a robust header/assembly (from experience this is not simple, we have implemented all sorts of test equipment and now epoxy some USB C headers as they are fiddly for mass production, the metal housing prevents x-rays for inspection too). It simplifies things so much, it's a really cool element of modern modular electrical design.

There are other options available which do similar things, however the given model is probably a fairly safe bet to avoid availability issues with chip shortages etc.

I'll be watching this space and I'm now looking forward for the day where I am watching my herb wither and cook. Sounds wonderful!

 

[RustyOldNail]

Okay, but still want accurate temperature monitoring with these analog heat sources? Use a mini surface thermometer directly on the hotplate.

I had never seen a temperature gauge so TINY, until the photo you posted. I have many ways to check temps on my various devices, but nothing this small, and no wires. The cost seemed reasonable at $75.00, but $20 for UPS-ground shipping (only option), for something so small and light, seemed excessive. I wrote them about it, and they never responded. But…. since I could not find that model #676F, anywhere else, I caved and ordered it. There are plenty of the larger sized models on Amazon, but not the tiny one. So thanks!

PTC® Miniature Spot Check® Surface Thermometer 50° to 750°F

www.ptc1.com

 

[Dan Morrison]

@RustyOldNail Awesome! And yeah... this seems like the only option out there. It is pricey, but seems well made, in that old-school american manufacturing sort of way.

Let me know how it works out! I kinda want one for the woodstove...

 

[RustyOldNail]

@RustyOldNail Awesome! And yeah... this seems like the only option out there. It is pricey, but seems well made, in that old-school american manufacturing sort of way.

Let me know how it works out! I kinda want one for the woodstove...

My initial impressions aren’t good in terms of accuracy. It’s built okay, but seems to be reading 20 degrees Fahrenheit higher then my digital Thermapen Pro with bell type probe. I went back to their site to look up any published accuracy specifications, but don’t see any. They do offer an option for “certified” versions that cost a lot more. It’s useful for rough readings in tiny spots where other temp probes won’t fit.

 

[Dan Morrison]

Damn... You would think that it would be pretty spot-on... I mean, isn't thermometer tech pretty much figured out by now?! I didn't even really consider that to be a thing that could happen.

Likely a red flag for any of my ideas involving mechanical temp sensing.

Thank you for sharing,

 

[RustyOldNail]

Damn... You would think that it would be pretty spot-on... I mean, isn't thermometer tech pretty much figured out by now?! I didn't even really consider that to be a thing that could happen.

Likely a red flag for any of my ideas involving mechanical temp sensing.

Thank you for sharing,

Maybe that’s why they call it “spot check”?

 

[Dan Morrison]

They claim 2% plus or minus accuracy, so it does seem like something is off. I wonder if there is a way to calibrate it? I think many dial thermometers require calibration, might be worth looking into?

 

[RustyOldNail]

They claim 2% plus or minus accuracy, so it does seem like something is off. I wonder if there is a way to calibrate it? I think many dial thermometers require calibration, might be worth looking into?

Where on their site did you see that spec.?

 

[Dan Morrison]

PTC® Surface Thermometers Made in the U.S.A.

www.ptc1.com

" Our thermometers have an accuracy of ±2% of full scale range and are backed by a one year warranty."

PTC® Miniature Spot Check® Surface Thermometer 10° to 400°C

www.ptc1.com

Under the Specifications Tab,

• Accuracy of ±2% of Full Scale
• Diameter 3/4 in. (1.9 cm).
• Height 3/8 in. (1.0 cm).
• Weight 0.2 oz. (5 g).
• Shipping weight 1 lb. (454 g).

I think their website is a little incomplete, because the 676F model number page is missing the spec. tab. But from what I gather, I believe all their thermometers are plus or minus 2%.

BUT.... since your scale is in F, 50 - 750, that would be a full scale of 700 degrees. 2% would allow a deviation of 14F. Close to your measured deviation, but still off.

 

[RustyOldNail]

PTC® Surface Thermometers Made in the U.S.A.

www.ptc1.com

" Our thermometers have an accuracy of ±2% of full scale range and are backed by a one year warranty."

PTC® Miniature Spot Check® Surface Thermometer 10° to 400°C

www.ptc1.com

Under the Specifications Tab,

• Accuracy of ±2% of Full Scale
• Diameter 3/4 in. (1.9 cm).
• Height 3/8 in. (1.0 cm).
• Weight 0.2 oz. (5 g).
• Shipping weight 1 lb. (454 g).

I think their website is a little incomplete, because the 676F model number page is missing the spec. tab. But from what I gather, I believe all their thermometers are plus or minus 2%.

BUT.... since your scale is in F, 50 - 750, that would be a full scale of 700 degrees. 2% would allow a deviation of 14F. Close to your measured deviation, but still off.

Oh, that’s why I didn’t see it. Yeah the degree lines on my model are in 10 degree steps. Placed inside my CH DCup resting on the 30mm sapphire dish, PID at 450F, my +2% digital thermometer confirms the PID setting with the Delta offset, but the analog PTC gauge reads 470F. I did some other temps higher and lower, same 20F high reading. However, placed inside the tiny oven of the HerbOven decarber with lid on, tested with both 250F and 300F presets, the readout was much closer. So it’s still useful to me, just not super trust worthy.

 

[Farid]

It could still have some value. You learn what the temperatures indicated relate to, and that can act as a reference point. So long as the gauge is consistent, it could be useful.

 

[RustyOldNail]

It could still have some value. You learn what the temperatures indicated relate to, and that can act as a reference point. So long as the gauge is consistent, it could be useful.

I’m aware…

Below is the surface meter I use. It agrees with my Fluke DMM, using a K-Type bell surface probe. The bead type probes are only accurate if physically mated to the surface being read or in liquids. Don’t get me started on how misused IR thermometers are here and other sites.

Pro-Surface Thermapen®

Specializing in cool, unique and professional temperature tools. Super-Fast thermocouples, thermistors, infrared thermometers, data logging and more.

www.thermoworks.com

 

[seriousTone]

My initial impressions aren’t good in terms of accuracy. It’s built okay, but seems to be reading 20 degrees Fahrenheit higher then my digital Thermapen Pro with bell type probe. I went back to their site to look up any published accuracy specifications, but don’t see any. They do offer an option for “certified” versions that cost a lot more. It’s useful for rough readings in tiny spots where other temp probes won’t fit.

Damn!! That thing is so slick, I wanted one just to have but eh..

First thing I noticed about the description was the "spot" check as well so maybe it is that literal - but maybe not cuz your thermapen is giving a different reading in the same spot?

Also, are ir thermometers inaccurate in general or decent? I know the surface shouldn't be shiny and something else...I have one that I rarely use but have always wondered just how accurate they are. @RustyOldNail

 

[RustyOldNail]

Damn!! That thing is so slick, I wanted one just to have but eh..

First thing I noticed about the description was the "spot" check as well so maybe it is that literal - but maybe not cuz your thermapen is giving a different reading in the same spot?

Also, are ir thermometers inaccurate in general or decent? I know the surface shouldn't be shiny and something else...I have one that I rarely use but have always wondered just how accurate they are. @RustyOldNail

IR thermometers can be very accurate if used as they were designed for. Best on dark non-reflective surfaces, the decent ones like my Fluke IR #62 Max+ has manual adjustment for “emissivity”, a chart gives you the offset/delta to enter for various surfaces. But, I find the most misunderstood function, that makes for inaccurate readings, is the minimum distance the meter can FOCUS on. The only ones recently designed for close readings, are the ones placed under a glass dab rig. Most if not all hand held IR temperature meters, including mine, are calibrated for longer distances, you can check your meters manual or online specs., that list the MINIMUM DISTANCE from meter to subject. The Fluke I use has two lasers that appear on the subject, that illustrate visually the area covered by the IR BEAM, the specs are 1- INCH wide at 12” distance.

 

[namasteIII]

If its not to expensive or hard to craft I think the heat batteries are still viable.

To me, the moment I read this I imaged you cooked this idea up staring at your wood stove. Wood stoves invoke this wonder in me as well, I'm especially fascinated by cooking on wood stoves, its just such a lovely wholesome process.

Hot plates are meh indeed. But if you can make them easily the vibe and ritual of the wood stove would be prefect for the on occasion, special and slow vape.

On the topic of fire, another interpretation is the vape battery version of when you play with a campfire, sticking sticks in it and getting them glowing hot. If you could make long skewer type handles with heat batteries on the end, and you stick it in your fire, have a few in rotation and then take it out and place on top of your bong bowl or pipe, that would be really cool, and fits you really well. With the ritual, occasion, mindfulness, process, ceremony type feelings many of your creations and thoughts tend to keep circling around.

I to love batteries for what they do for modern life.

But I also experience pain caused by modern life, and cherish the moments of simpler times, like sitting around a fire, the first battery, unchanged in all this time. So the design philosophy of for the occasion, or not, but not let me blast these chemicals into me, but instead have a moment, do a thing, be present. This idea is on that track and its at least really lovely. Fair of course if it can't be a product, but it deserves to exist.


On the other designs. We talked before but I love the idea of a mega suped up heater. Just a big heater with tons of power, a nice wood housing and handle system. I wonder since you don't love desktop if it could be both. What if it had the 510 attachment at the end of its cord and it could be used with mods, or plugged into a box that plugs into the wall and has temp, or voltage control.

Big bonus points being you don't have to make the mod. I'm not sure if theres a desktop readymade thing of if you will have to make the box with the input for the 510, and type of temp control plus wall outlet. I was researching this path myself a while ago and its not to complicated (unless the 510 thing itself adds a lot of complexity but its just a port / way of transferring power right, same as a cable pretty much) so its just a few things connected and a box. And we all know you could make a killer box.

And yeah same thing, It would be sick if it can work on bongs 18mm or 14mm we already have, Herborizer style, and with cool pipes and other that you make.

Cool thread Dan. I'm a fan of your mind, and hands.

https://imgur.com/a/Ltv4BrR

 

[seriousTone]

IR thermometers can be very accurate if used as they were designed for. Best on dark non-reflective surfaces, the decent ones like my Fluke IR #62 Max+ has manual adjustment for “emissivity”, a chart gives you the offset/delta to enter for various surfaces. But, I find the most misunderstood function, that makes for inaccurate readings, is the minimum distance the meter can FOCUS on. The only ones recently designed for close readings, are the ones placed under a glass dab rig. Most if not all hand held IR temperature meters, including mine, are calibrated for longer distances, you can check your meters manual or online specs., that list the MINIMUM DISTANCE from meter to subject. The Fluke I use has two lasers that appear on the subject, that illustrate visually the area covered by the IR BEAM, the specs are 1- INCH wide at 12” distance.

Nice to know, thanks a lot.

 

[Dan Morrison]

@namasteIII After playing around with some very crude heat battery ideas, it seems to me that they require a lot of heat input in order to store enough heat for the required output. There is just so much heat loss during the heat transfer, no matter which way you go, that I don't really see it as a viable portable option. I think the best version of the heat battery is likely some sort of plug-in desktop that stays on at all times. If you follow that design path, I think you'd end up with something like the Couchlog.

For my style of use, I love on-demand heating, and the ability for at least some level of outdoor portability, even if it's just for camping trips or picnics.

@MoltenTiger I've been thinking more about the USB-C PD route, and I think it has some key advantages. The newest battery banks pack a lot of power into a relatively tiny package. You get all the safety features built in, and a steady constant voltage output, which acts like it's own regulated power supply.

The vaporizer itself doesn't need to house any of those bulky electronics, it's all contained in a battery bank. And these battery banks can always be upgraded at a later date.

Like you mentioned, a wall charger could be included for at home use.

Pairing the above power sources with an "unregulated" heater (like the style I make for the Nomad/Toad) would give you partial regulation in the form of a constant voltage, so you wouldn't have any voltage change as the battery level drops.

I've drawn out some ideas...

The base unit is seen on the left. It would be quite small, able to fit in the palm of your hand. You can see the USB-C cable plugged into the bottom, that'll give some sense of scale.

I imagine using the thinner and more flexible silicone insulated USB-C cables, for a higher quality feel.

It would be a simple on-off heater operation, same as the Nomad/Toad.

The main difference being that I could make the heater much larger, higher mass, and higher surface area. The higher mass would give a slightly longer heat up time, maybe about 10 seconds, but this would allow for a larger window where the heat output is optimal. A slower heat up with more stored heat is easier to control manually, vs a smaller heater that heats up faster.

The heater would be very similar to the ribbon coil I developed, but with thicker ribbon and a wider over-all diameter. This heater would be non-removable.

I would likely be using the 12v or 15v output standard, with a heater wattage of around 30-45w. This allows for greater battery bank compatibility, and from experience, this seems like a good wattage range for unregulated heaters, where it's not going to run way too hot.

I imagine a herb chamber diameter of around 14-18mm. The herb chamber would be in the form of a removable glass capsule. The glass capsule could be left in the vape most of the time, and loaded directly like a regular bowl, or...with multiple glass capsules on stand-by for swapping them between sessions. Glass capsules would likely run about $3 - $5 each, so they could be easily replaced if broken.

The "stem" portion of the above drawings are all glass, but I imagine you could also do a glass dome with wood stem, or all wood, or other combinations. There would also be an adapter for WPAs that keeps the herb chamber upright, no need to flip the entire thing upside down..... The point being that the USB-C cord is always facing downwards.

I have really grown to love longer stems, and curves provide great cooling.

The glass herb chamber combined with the glass stem gives a clear view of the herb chamber in use. You can watch the vapor flow directly out of the herb chamber, and check the color of your AVB without needing to disassemble anything. These two points are nice creature comforts when you're using a manual heat source with stem cooling, since you can directly see what's going on as you're vaping.

The main connection between the body and stem is shown as an O-ring connection... which I prefer over a taper joint.

Anyhow, just playing around... I feel like this thread has already steered me away from some dead-end ideas... It feels like I'm better able to wrap my head around designs after I post them here...for whatever reason. Thanks for playing along!

p.s. - The Shargeek Storm2 and Storm2 slim would be great companion battery banks to pair with this. Their cyberpunk design and high quality would maintain the cool vibe throughout the entire package, no need to pair this thing with a boring black plastic box. There are also plenty of high-end USB-C cable makers out there who can customize your cable with woven wraps, coiled cords, etc..etc.. So, lots of fun options there as well!