GAMMA IRRADIATION - Is it safe for your medicine?

[biohacker]

Recently I have discovered that the Licensed Producer I obtain my meds from Gamma Irradiates all of their products. It is not an actual requirement in Canada, as long as the labs tests prove that standards for mold, pesticides, fungus, etc. has been achieved, so many licensed producers use it to sterilize, but others do not. As one to rather be on the safe side, I have changed my supplier to one that does not Gamma Irradiate.

This discussion has started in the "Canadian Licensed Producer" thread, and after searching only found one short closed thread that mentioned this radiation process to sterilize meds. What are your thoughts? Is it safe? Do you think it's harmless? I haven't done much research on the subject other than reading a few articles, and i'll finish this post off with a quote. Please discuss!

We also know that gamma radiation destroys the essential oils, called terpenes, which are naturally produced by the plant and play an important synergistic role in the body.

 

[biohacker]

Didn't think this thread would be so popular, perhaps Gamma Irradiation is something that doesn't concern anyone? Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

 

[herbivore21]

hahaha man this is nothing that those of us in prohibition land can relate to, having never come across such material.

However, I would not want irradiated material because it can and will indeed degrade the actives that I so cherish. My personal position is an irrelevancy to the market though, since when legalization happens, I will grow my own medicine. Not interested in leaving it up to someone else if I don't have to. You guys all know I'm a DIY guy where I can be

Still, irradiation to me strikes me as an initial, crude answer to providing high levels of quality assurance of the absence of some common nasties in flowers. I am sure better ways will be employed in future - there's certainly gonna be a huge number of people calling for it. I'm sure noone wants to have buds treated in a way that degrades actives if it can be avoided

In the meantime man, it isn't a mandatory standard - were I in your position, I'd just not buy it and make sure it is clear that you are voting with your feet by letting the retailer know you are not interested in buds that have been treated this way.

Smart businesspeople will stop irradiating if they know that consumers are not interested in irradiated nugs - I'm willing to bet that they like customer's money more than gamma radiation

I hope they never mandate irradiation of flowers in Canada. It is a place that a Herbivore like me might love to live someday!

 

[biohacker]

Thanks for your reply and insight! I completely agree! I stopped purchasing from this producer as soon as I found out (I should have done more due diligence), and am presently only purchasing meds from a producer that does no Irradiate. Apparently alot of our food, spices, etc. gets irradiated as well? Not sure if it has to be labelled or not though. I thought this practice was even more prevalent in your land of prohibition... do the legal states not also irradiate? Here in Canada, basically some do and some don't.

 

[herbivore21]

Thanks for your reply and insight! I completely agree! I stopped purchasing from this producer as soon as I found out (I should have done more due diligence), and am presently only purchasing meds from a producer that does no Irradiate. Apparently alot of our food, spices, etc. gets irradiated as well? Not sure if it has to be labelled or not though. I thought this practice was even more prevalent in your land of prohibition... do the legal states not also irradiate? Here in Canada, basically some do and some don't.

That's the way bro, if you haven't already (but then again, I'm sure you have) make sure you let your friends know who appreciate the herb that this processing can degrade the resin. I'm sure they'll thank you for it

AFAIK Irradiation is indeed found in some legal parts of the US (IIRC I have heard someone mentioning it in that context - maybe someone who has seen first hand could help us out here). Still, no illegal commercial grow is gonna be irradiated lol! Imagine an illegal commercial operator giving that much attention to getting the nasties out of their material??? That would be the day

I actually think we could largely chalk this practice up to new MJ operators in legal jurisdictions hearing that this is a good way to sterilize their material, which I can understand would sound appealing until they eventually learn that this is counterproductive to the reason that people want to buy the product! I think here may be one rare occasion where speaking up as consumers may actually be fruitful

I only really remember hearing about tobacco being irradiated in this way. However, it is entirely possible that this is used with other crops. In those cases, we would need to consider the chemistry of the crop as well as the method or irradiation to determine whether this actually matters though.

 

[biohacker]

Yep, i've read enough on it to scare me enough away from it, and the only order I received confirmed the lack of terpenes! They claim that Gamma Irradiation is a "Pharmaceutical Standard" but we all know that is bullshit. It's just easier for them, and perhaps some people are so immune compromised that they may even need it.

Hopefully 2016 is the year that it becomes fully legal in both the United States AND Canada! Fuck irradiation!

 

[herbivore21]

Yep, i've read enough on it to scare me enough away from it, and the only order I received confirmed the lack of terpenes! They claim that Gamma Irradiation is a "Pharmaceutical Standard" but we all know that is bullshit. It's just easier for them, and perhaps some people are so immune compromised that they may even need it.

Hopefully 2016 is the year that it becomes fully legal in both the United States AND Canada! Fuck irradiation!

That would be a wonderful thing to hear on legalization, definitely crossing my fingers with you and many others here Also for our Euro, Asian, African and Middle Eastern friends. It surely would do a lot of good for a lot of the hotheads out of control around the world right now!

Actually, for some applications I am sure gamma irradiation is a reasonable pharmaceutical standard. Still, for our purposes - I'm with you man! If it degrades the actives then surely we should be heading back to the drawing board. It is about suitability for purpose - I long for the day that we can get sterile flowers, but let's not lose sight of the whole point of cannabis here!

 

[mikek9]

Apparently gamma-irradiation is used for immuno suppressed/compromised individuals. I'm guessing that level of sterility is necessary to ensure they don't get any contaminants in their bodies.

Where is the source that claims this process kills terpenes and other essentials from the cannabis plant? I saw this posted in the other thread but don't know how factual it is.

Terpenoids and flavonoids are very delicate compounds with low boiling points so I can see these being the first to go in processing, but if this doesn't involve heat how do they degrade? Unless it uses light in the process. But I am thinking what degrades cannabinoids and its light, oxygen and heat from what I recall.

I don't know enough about the process of irradiation.

Recently I ordered some super silver haze from my provider and later found out it was cold water pasteurized/gamma-irradiated, but I really like the flowers. They do maybe lack an over abundance of terpenes, but that could just be the flowers. The potency is all there, it tests at 19.4% thc and that's after the sterilization process.

 

[biohacker]

I'll have to research the source but there was an extensive discussion about how bad it was. I lost interest when I ruled it out.

 

[MinnBobber]

Where is the source that claims this process kills terpenes and other essentials from the cannabis plant? I saw this posted in the other thread but don't know how factual it is.

Terpenoids and flavonoids are very delicate compounds with low boiling points so I can see these being the first to go in processing, but if this doesn't involve heat how do they degrade? Unless it uses light in the process. But I am thinking what degrades cannabinoids and its light, oxygen and heat from what I recall.

I don't know enough about the process of irradiation.

...........................................................................
X2
I'd also question that it kills terps off as process should not heat the herbs.
Like to find more on that---if any real scientific tests have been done.

Given a choice I'd for sure avoid IF it really does degrade the terps.

 

[biohacker]

Well I can assure you that as a customer of 6 gamma irradiated strains, the terpenes are in fact pretty much long gone. Not even sure what I should do with the rest of this shit! I'll take some pics later with some other awesome strains mixed in, and we'll play "can you tell which strains are irradiated"? lol

Here is a start for those of you that are interested....lots to read!

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...=UTF-8#q=gamma+irradiation+terpenes+marijuana

In addition, gamma irradiation has been shown to destroy terpenes like myrcene and linalool (fan et al, 2002),(1) which have known therapeutic properties and are found in high concentrations in some strains of whole-plant cannabis.(2) Terpenes may also play a significant role in the synergistic effect and bioavailability of THC and other cannabinoids.(4)

Sources:

1. CSA website: http://safeaccess.ca/research/flinflon/Fan_Cilantro_Irradiation .pdf
2. McPartland & Mediavilla 2002.
3. Russo E & McPartland J. 2001. Cannabis and cannabis extracts: greater than the sum of their parts? From E. Russo�s Cannabis Therapeutics in HIV/AIDS. Haworth Integrative Healing Press.
4. CSA website: http://safeaccess.ca/pr/csapr7.htm

 

[OF]

Gamma irradiation is 100% safe. This process does not damage herb in any way that you could ever notice. There is absolutely nothing to be concerned about at all.

Spot on! This is by no means new WRT marijuana, it predates most Members on this forum I'm sure. Gamma (AKA "x-rays") has been used for at least 50 years on the cannabis seeds that are used for bird food (don't want 'volunteer' pot plants in grandma's garden now do we?). Yes, they are valued for the oils, helps with fancy feathers I understand. While it has no practical effect past destroying enough genetic materials to make reproduction possible the result is not radio active nor a threat in consumption. It should not destroy terpenes any more than THC itself, there's no heat involved. One has to wonder what the job satisfaction is like for a guy who spends all day irradiating pot seeds.......

When I was in Saudi Arabia many years ago it was done to the only milk you could get which came in metal capped bottles like short soft drink bottles. In a land of no refrigeration it allowed fully healthy whole milk with nearly infinite shelf life. Way past being homogenized. Arabs drinking their tea 'British style' (preloaded with milk and sugar) used it far and wide. You'd automatically get it ordering tea in the few restraints around (generally in big hotels catering to westerners) as well as 'in the field'.

While it's entirely possible the radiated herb you might by is 'missing terpenes' or has other issues I sincerely doubt this is why unless they somehow screw it up or also heat sterilize which is also very commonly done in medical circles prior to disposal. Standard sterilization techniques.

IMO because it's radiation and largely not understood it gets some automatic condemnation.

Once again, Stema is right. No reason to fear or shy away that I know, but if it makes you uncomfortable by all means do so. If you're caught with some of this evil weed please feel free to send it to me..........I'll risk it for you.

As always, such calls are yours.

OF

 

[herbivore21]

Whoa, this thread went six ways from anything I was talking about!

Gamma radiation is electromagnetic radiation, just like all forms of visible and invisible light. Gamma radiation is higher frequency (all EMR comprises oscillating electric and magnetic fields) and of a lower wavelength than X-rays, UV light and visible light in that order. Gamma rays and X rays are not the same thing. They are two of the highest frequency types of EMR however.

It is not dangerous to expose crops to gamma radiation. I have not said this at all here. However, it will degrade actives. Thanks Biohacker for bringing in some sources to demonstrate this. There are many more studies that show this effect in a wide variety of gamma irradiated crops. This is a well studied and understood phenomenon in various industries and fields (both literal and metaphorical).

Check out the below google scholar for the peer reviewed science. Sources here also confirm that gamma irradiation causes more frequent occurrence of secondary oxidation products of volatile fatty acids in hemp and sunflower seeds, another example highlights that gamma irradiation has been shown to 'significantly reduce' levels of terps like linalool in coriander.

This is nothing revolutionary when we understand the nature of oxidative degradation. Plenty of shit on the EMR spectrum degrades terpenes and volatile fatty acids etc (visible light, UV, gamma rays are all examples). Ionizing radiation of all kinds tends to speed up oxidative reactions in all kinds of organic matter.

Unfortunately, a lot of this literature is closed literature, but you can find out the summary of method and findings in the abstract. This will generally be available without subscription.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q...ved=0ahUKEwjQlIT24tfJAhUEpJQKHQ98BP8QgQMIGjAA

So to recap; I have never suggested there is anything unsafe about cannabis that has been irradiated. Just that it degrades the very actives that are so sought after for medication and recreation alike.

I have come to value the terpenes more than anything else in my medicine. There is a reason I've switched from solvent based absolutes to full melts and rosins - it is much easier with much better yields for me to just turn my flowers into solvent absolutes! Nonetheless, I have found my own personal consumption has decreased five-fold with the discovery of higher terpene, lower THC concentrates. A vac and/or sustained heat will always degrade more volatiles.

Hopefully this all helps to explain the nature of gamma irradiation a bit more and why it is not ideal and something I would entirely avoid for now in our application*.

If you don't mind losing terps, that's your personal business of course.

*I will qualify this all by saying that I am personally aware right now of more than one way of retaining volatiles whilst gamma irradiating the rest of a sample of material. However with flowers this would be extremely intensive work and potentially not viable in terms of cost. This could definitely be achieved with extracts without losing anything good though

@mikek9 your post is a good illustration that you can certainly still get material that has been gamma irradiated but is good nonetheless.

 

[herbivore21]

Personally I do not agree that you are losing terps in any noticeable amounts whatsoever so this just does not matter where I intersect with gamma radiation and my beloved herb.

You have a right to your disagree man, but an entire body of scientific literature is at odds with your view. Ionizing radiation applied in this way speeds up oxidative degradation in plant matter.

'Significant reduction' is the exact scientific language for 'noticable amounts' in the case of the article highlighting the degradation of linalool, one common terp in cannabis varieties. You may not mind this net loss, but this doesn't mean that it is not lost in levels that are detectable and significant!

 

[herbivore21]

Yeah, there is a lot of junk science out there or maybe the 'junk application' of science. Gamma irradiation completely safe for the way people are using it.

You've ignored what I've said and are arguing with a straw man bro. Never said gamma irradiation was unsafe. Explicitly said it is safe several times above

 

[herbivore21]

True, I agree.

I feel this is insignificant to the point that could put a gamma irradiated bud next to one that received no treatment and you could never tell the difference.

I understand how you might think that using flowers (especially with stuff like Mike mentioned above), but it is not strictly true. Especially for me, extracting the resin - I will notice a difference in terms of net loss in yields and increased presence of oxidation byproducts.

I understand you may use for different reasons and this may not matter to you, but this is not the same as demonstrating that there is no significant change in the nature and quantity of the actives. I hope you appreciate my distinction which I agree may not matter for you personally, but is objectively a noteworthy difference with consequences for plenty of other people personally.

 

[herbivore21]

You can visually see the state of degradation of resin. Any grower or extract artist will tell you this. You can taste a higher net presence of terpenes in an extract especially strongly. I wish I could give you a few dabs of various extracts from the same material to show different levels of oxidative degradation and terp retention and the markedly different effects, flavor and appearances that come with these variations. Also it never hurts to share a dab with someone from around these parts

Also not all kinds of processing will lead to loss of terps my friend, in fact ev some advanced isolation techniques can assure almost 100% retention, if not that! Any remainder can also be supplemented by isolates taken from more of the same kind of herb. Watch this space in coming years.

None of this even takes into account extractions performed in a nitrogen environment, which is a whole new ball park.

 

[davesmith]

Well I've never heard of gamma on consumables like this before so have no real input, other than........

 

[herbivore21]

I don't notice anything different at all

I think that because it is so obviously clear some people DO NOT want gamma irradiation mean that it must be included on every label. We people are this concerned opinions on this topic take a back seat to people having the information they seek.

If people do not want gamma irradiation it should be easy for them to avoid. Still, I think it is a non-issue but that doesn't matter if my brother feels bad about it.

This is a perfectly reasonable post. You could definitely not personally notice the difference in flowers, especially depending on what is available to you, you may find that non irradiated flowers were less mature or had less glands to begin with, in which case you could conceivably even find irradiated flowers that are more potent than others that are not. There are many factors and I am talking about an all-things-being equal scenario - which may vary in different locations.

I agree, it is not something that needs to be banned or stopped altogether and I can see a time when it doesn't damage actives depending on what producers decide to do. Still, if nugs are irradiated; it would be good for it to be clearly marked as such

Always a pleasure discussing with ya man

 

[OF]

True, I agree the use of the term 'safe' was incorrect in relation to your posts.

I feel any degradadtion is insignificant to the point that could put a gamma irradiated bud next to one that received no treatment and you could never tell the difference.

I agree mostly, the title of the thread includes "safe" but makes no mention of taste or even effect? I think we can agree that it is in fact safe? That is there's nothing to fear.

While I'll concede that there might be a change in 'light stuff', it makes no sense to me why that should be nor do I consider it really important. Especially to MMJ types. In fact it might even have an advantage there???

If there is a change large enough to taste (and that's a couple of 'maybies strung end to end) I strongly suspect that it's small compared to the normal spectrum. That is irradiate 4 of 8 strains, put all 7 out and ask folks to pick out two of the irradiated strains we'd most likely end up with 50-50 results? That is random without respect to the irradiation.

Well I've never heard of gamma on consumables like this before so have no real input, other than........

I have, and have consumed some, therefore have a minor contribution which I've already offered. BTW the hospital I went to work at in Saudi Arabia also had the world's largest (at the time) Cobalt based Gamma facility. It was off the loading docks in the back (next to the morgue of all places). It had an overhead trolly system into the cell, about the size of a phone booth for those that remember phone booths. At night trucks would pull up to one dock and unload boxes that went into the 'cars', through the maze, past the source, through the other maze and out to the other dock where they'd be unloaded and go back on trucks. In the day the hospital ran bedding, gowns and other stuff through. When it was shutdown, the sources (there were 4 total) were lowered back into the pit full of water for shielding. There was a catwalk above you could then safely go on and look down into the water.......which was glowing purple just like in the movies. Spooky indeed, looking into sure death save the water in the tank. A pit of radioactive snakes.

There were photos of them loading the sources on the wall. They were trucked overland about 300 clicks on trailers with giant lead cylinders on them with the source inside. A cable was attached to the source and a bell shaped cover of steel went over the lead with a second, larger, open top bell over that with a few inches of space for air to cool the inner structure. The project was 3 years old and the director (a Yank, fun guy who showed us around one day) made a big show of it. It's a sealed source, no chance of a leak, but he stopped the trucks in the yard and had a crane lift the protective cover off. He then sent in guys in 'space suits' with mops and buckets to 'decontaminate' it...... Huge clouds of steam rolled off the hot steel, giving the Arabs a real thrill. After another guy in a space suit with a Geiger counter crept cautiously up, swept the container and flashed the 'all clear'. The Director busted up telling us about it, got red in the face and finally just pointed at the photos and saying 'look at the faces'. They'd then put the shipping containers next to the pit, attach the cable, then retired to outside the shielding. They'd raise the source out the top, it'd swing over the water and Bob's your uncle as they say, down it went into the water. Not sure how they get them out.....not my problem. Fun times in a strange country.

Sorry to ramble, but it sorta fits.

OF

 

[biohacker]

Holy cow! Thanks for the discussion fellas..... mostly opinion, but a healthy dose. I'm not sure how to take it, but sometimes things like "GMO's are safe" and "Dental xrays are safe" pop in to my head. I surely would appreciate any food that I purchase be labelled GMO or Irradiated or "contains Bovine Growth Hormone". I know Canadian law is different than US for this kind of thing, but i'm all for INFORMED CONSUMER.

Maybe my irradiated buds are crappy because they are greenhouse! Regardless, I still would rather support a producer that can meet lab standards without having to resort to Irradiating. There is plenty of information online for a consumer to make an informed decision for themselves.

I think we can agree that it is in fact safe? That is there's nothing to fear.

"Gamma irradiation is a controversial decontamination technique that has never been studied for safety in smoked or inhaled products anywhere in the world," CSA wrote in its letter. "Although it effectively destroys most bacteria, it does not destroy viruses or mycotoxins, and is often used to cover up biological contamination resulting from poor production, processing or handling practices. One of the bi-products of gamma irradiation is the production of Unique Radiolytic Products, which are a new class of chemicals resulting from irradiations that are not otherwise found in nature. Of significance in the gamma irradiation of whole plant cannabis is the potential production of cyclobutanones, which are toxic, carcinogenic chemicals that form when fats are subjected to gamma irradiation, and which have been directly linked to the development of colon cancer in rats. In addition, gamma irradiation has been shown to destroy terpenes like myrcene and linalool, which have known therapeutic properties and are found in high concentrations in some strains of whole-plant cannabis."
So much for "patient safety".

Um, yeah, Fuck Combustion......and FUCK GAMMA IRRADIATION!!!

 

[Hashtag46&2]

First and foremost...I do not know a damn thing about Gamma Rays., but I do know Oxidation., so....

Personally, if the Irradiation leads to any oxidation of the Glandular Head, it is of lesser potency, rather missing a very important piece of the full flavor spectrum .
(Which is more than just taste, Terpenes modulate Cannabinoid content)

Cannabis without Terpenes would be a very dull, flat high, lacking flavor and effectiveness.

However, this will only be at a noticeable level in the world of Mechanical Separation Extractions, Dry Sieve and Water Sieved Resins.

I do a lot of preventive measures to prevent oxidation of my Bubble Hash, Kept below 55F and zero humidity levels.

The hashes in which I "Miss" the Cure (Exposed to excessive moisture, and ambient temperature ) are very different from my perfect cured hash.

Non-Oxidation... Resin remains either very sticky and Aromatic, or ends up exactly like glassy, brittle shatter.

Oxidation, Resin turns into a chalk like powder, aromatics take a huge nose-dive very quickly....

In closing, if Irradiation fucks with my Trichomes, I don't like it...lol

I love this Forum.

 

[mikek9]

Well I can assure you that as a customer of 6 gamma irradiated strains, the terpenes are in fact pretty much long gone. Not even sure what I should do with the rest of this shit!

My question is do you think the terps were even there to begin with?

I haven't ever had a terribly fragrant batch of irradiated cannabis before, though I have only tried 2 types, but they definitely had terpenoids as my LP lists a "terpography" map showing the concentrations of the terps in a chart:

It doesn't show much here, but the claims that mycrene is destroyed are questionable as myrcene is the most abundant terpenoid available in this strain of Nordle+ .

Additionally, Bedrocan Canada, which irradiates all their medicine, lists concentrations of terpenoids on their product page showing there are plenty of terps available even after gamma-irradiation:

Though I think another terpene called linalool was also claimed to be eliminated during sterilization and I don't see any quantity of it at all. Could this be a result of gamma-irradiation or just the genetics themselves not producing any?

Oh and in response to if gamma-irradiation does anything to trichomes, I also don't know, but here is a picture of the 19.4% Super Silver Haze from Tweed. This strain has been irradiated, but look at the abundance of trichomes?

 

[biohacker]

Good point @mikek9! I honestly couldn't tell you, my LP does not show those labs. All I know is what I see and smell, and what i've researched briefly. I think much of my issues with my LP could have to do with their greenhouse grown buds, because I certainly have nothing that looks like your Nordle! I'll post pics of all the strains later if I have time. Hopefully i'm ordering from Tilray today! They don't irradiate.

 

[chris 71]

biohacker , i would wager your RedeCan buds , if lacking flavor and or smell probably has more to do with drying and handling methods then the irradiating process .
also i would bet that the reason for the lp ( Bedrocan for example ) doing this process as routine , has more to do with covering there ass then trying to salvage a poor crop . as has been stated a few times in the discussions on different threads here on fc for a reason to do it .

i think you will be happy with tilray ( other then price ) be sure to let us know . dont forget though that if you only order the cbd strains and the milled products as good as they are . you need to order some of the higher thc strains to get that real awesome looking and tasting bud like we see pics of posted in some threads here on fc. if your having probs with the high thc strains as i have read on some of your other post . try mixing the high cbd with the high thc works really well to mitigate some of the unwanted side effects of the high thc strains alone . ( for me anyways not that you will have the same results as me as we are all different but thought i would throw this out there ) i find i get better results this way then with just the high cbd strains alone . also keep in mind tilrays charts showing terps are not reflective of actual numbers but more in relation to terp amounts of other strains