Fuck combustion? no no no...fuck tobacco

[Hennessy1414]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAf_df9yds&feature=related

Amsterdam has put a ban on tobacco use in coffee shops. And that part with the lung doctors cracks me up....haha finally the true light shines thru!

 

[Pseudonymous]

I think it's kind of lame. But I'm pretty libertarian (no, not one of those right-wing libertarians).

 

[Hennessy1414]

Harmful, addictive and less beneficial then mary J...yea your right, its lame they try to restrict that from coffee shops.



:/

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

Harmful, addictive and less beneficial then mary J...yea your right, its lame they try to restrict that from coffee shops.



:/

its lame that theyd restrict anything

 

[lwien]

Hmmm.......let's see.

"Tobacco use kills an estimated six million people worldwide each year and drains $500 billion annually from the global economy in lost productivity, misused resources, and premature deaths.

By 2015, an estimated 2.1 million cancer deaths annually will be caused by tobacco products."
----MedicineNet

And who in the hell pays for all the medical costs associated with lung diseases due to tobacco? We all do, and that's the problem. I have no problem if someone wants to kill themselves. Personally, I think we should legalize suicide. I just don't want to have to pay for it.

 

[Hennessy1414]

dude...you make FC work. I love it^^^^^^

 

[Mark]

Of that 500 billion, with our current tax, a lot of money is going to our government services then to the tobacco company's. I would not say wasted, it is in fact taxed, and the company's then use the money on electricity and employees and land and fertilizer, money goes round, people get fed. Whats a few millions deaths compared to a couple hundred thousands jobs max.

 

[Happycamper]

I knew about this at the time. Ive always wondered though about the pre rolled mixed joints some shops have. You're not really supposed to smoke MJ out on the street, the locals detest visitors coming over and doing that. So what do you do, take it away? If your hotel maybe will allow it.

 

[CrazyCracker]

So what do you do, take it away? If your hotel maybe will allow it.

Most likely they will allow it, and if you stay at a hostel they usually have a common area you can stay and smoke @

 

[Pseudonymous]

Harmful, addictive and less beneficial then mary J...yea your right, its lame they try to restrict that from coffee shops.



:/

That isn't the issue. The issue is that they are banning legal substances in some areas. They (should) have no right to do so. If the coffee shop owners are for it, fine. But if they aren't, then it's just restricting civil liberties.

Nobody is forcing you to go to coffee shops which allow tobacco smoking so what makes you think you (or anyone else) should have the right to restrict people form partaking in a legal activity on private property?

 

[Hennessy1414]

you dont get it...I aint gonna argue

 

[lwien]

Harmful, addictive and less beneficial then mary J...yea your right, its lame they try to restrict that from coffee shops.



:/

That isn't the issue. The issue is that they are banning legal substances in some areas. They (should) have no right to do so. If the coffee shop owners are for it, fine. But if they aren't, then it's just restricting civil liberties.

Nobody is forcing you to go to coffee shops which allow tobacco smoking so what makes you think you (or anyone else) should have the right to restrict people form partaking in a legal activity on private property?

My take on this is that it should not be legal.............anywhere, for the reasons that I stated in my previous post.

Or, if it's gonna be legal, that no insurance companies will pick up the tab for anyone that is a known smoker that comes down with any life threatening diseases and that emergency rooms will turn away any known smoker that comes in for any kind of treatment for any life threatening disease unless they can pay for it out of their own pocket.

Like I said, I think suicide should be legalized. I just don't want to pay for it.

So........like everything else, things happen in baby steps, and if restricting civil liberties on tobacco use in coffee shops is a baby step to an overall ban on tobacco, so be it.

(and I used to smoke 3 packs a day..................)

 

[Pseudonymous]

you dont get it...I aint gonna argue

No, you clearly don't get it. You made a response to me. I elaborated upon my response. Restricting liberties is not good. What gives anyone the right to restrict these things?

Harmful, addictive and less beneficial then mary J...yea your right, its lame they try to restrict that from coffee shops.



:/

That isn't the issue. The issue is that they are banning legal substances in some areas. They (should) have no right to do so. If the coffee shop owners are for it, fine. But if they aren't, then it's just restricting civil liberties.

Nobody is forcing you to go to coffee shops which allow tobacco smoking so what makes you think you (or anyone else) should have the right to restrict people form partaking in a legal activity on private property?

My take on this is that it should not be legal.............anywhere, for the reasons that I stated in my previous post.

Or, if it's gonna be legal, that no insurance companies will pick up the tab for anyone that is a known smoker that comes down with any life threatening diseases and that emergency rooms will turn away any known smoker that comes in for any kind of treatment for any life threatening disease unless they can pay for it out of their own pocket.

Like I said, I think suicide should be legalized. I just don't want to pay for it.

So........like everything else, things happen in baby steps, and if restricting civil liberties on tobacco use in coffee shops is a baby step to an overall ban on tobacco, so be it.

(and I used to smoke 3 packs a day..................)

What about alcohol?

 

[lwien]

What about alcohol?

Ok, good question. In the context of this thread of the original post, having the same restrictions on tobacco as we do on alcohol may make some sense. You can't serve alcohol unless you have a license, and.........you can't just go into any coffee shop or restaurant and bring your own booze.

But in a more general term, like we have been discussing, alcohol, while destructive in it's own right, is no where NEAR as dangerous or widely addictive as tobacco. There are too many people that can have a glass or two of wine every night and not ever become alcoholics. Same thing can't be said for cigs. And, there is much evidence lately that those one or two glasses of wine can actually benefit your health. There is no health benefit for cigs.

I don't think that there is anything on the planet that is so widely used and is as toxic as tobacco.

Apples and oranges in my opinion.

 

[CrazyCracker]

Alcohol, while destructive in it's own right, is no where NEAR as dangerous...

I think that's up for debate. Alcohol has a very low therapeutic index (easy to overdose when compared to how much it takes to get drunk). The long term effects of alcohol consumption aren't very nice either. 2 glasses of wine a day might have some health benefits, but so does a couple glasses of cranberry juice.

Getting back to alcohol Vs. tobacco restrictions in public...when someone is drinking a beer I don't have to smell it. When I'm in a small and/or poorly ventilated room full of people drinking beer I don't get respiratory irritation.

When your civil liberty gets in the way of my air quality I don't mind the government getting involved.

 

[lwien]

Alcohol, while destructive in it's own right, is no where NEAR as dangerous...

I think that's up for debate. Alcohol has a very low therapeutic index (easy to overdose when compared to how much it takes to get drunk).

Look at the stats in post #5 and tell me that alcohol even comes close to the destructive power of tobacco, both from a health and economic perspective. I don't think it's up for debate at all.

 

[Hennessy1414]

hell yea lwien...lay down that iron fist.

lets vaporize alcohol? :/

 

[Pseudonymous]

The question was meant as "do you think alcohol should be illegal?"

You cite the health concerns about tobacco, but alcohol is a pretty brutal drug.

I've never had to feel the need to defend myself against someone who was just smoking a cigarette, but I recall more than one instance when the person was drunk.

CrazyCracker, I again state that you aren't forced to go into those coffee shops. You are given a choice. This is nearly no different than telling people what they can do in their own homes. A privately owned establishment is a privately owned establishment and smoking is a legal activity.

Hennessy, vapourizing alcohol is ridiculously dangerous. I don't know if you're already aware of that or not.

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

hell yea lwien...lay down that iron fist.

lets vaporize alcohol? :/

http://www.awolusa.com/
already illegal in many states

 

[rayski]

CrazyCracker, I again state that you aren't forced to go into those coffee shops. You are given a choice. This is nearly no different than telling people what they can do in their own homes. A privately owned establishment is a privately owned establishment and smoking is a legal activity.

I think the law is also for the benefit of the employees who work in these establishments. They can't just walk by if they need the job.

 

[CrazyCracker]

Look at the stats in post #5 and tell me that alcohol even comes close to the destructive power of tobacco, both from a health and economic perspective. I don't think it's up for debate at all.

Ok, ill bite...Its all in the way you define destructive, addictive, harmful ext.

If you go on how many people die in the US each year, then 79,000 deaths annually from alcohol is obviously a distant 2nd place. However statistics don't always tell the whole truth. Daily excessive cigarette abuse is widespread in this country. If most of these people quit smoking would tobacco suddenly become a less dangerous drug in your eyes?

Alcohol withdrawal CAN kill you. Cigarette withdrawal cant kill you.
Overdosing (DEATH) from alcohol is pretty easy. Cigarettes not so much.
So as far as acute toxicity alcohol is the hands down winner.

Lets move on to long term effects...(there are many more, but Im pressed for time)

Alcohol causes scarring of the liver, once that happens fat starts depositing in your organs. http://www.liverfoundation.org/education/info/alcohol/

"Alcoholism increases levels of the female hormone estrogen and reduces levels of the male hormone testosterone, factors that contribute to impotence in men." http://www.answers.com/topic/alcohol-consumption-and-health I learned in my psychopharmacology class that alcohol can actually scar you testicles. Good times ! :/

Chronic Alcoholism can lead to serious psychological problems as well. "In France approximately 20% of admissions to mental health facilities are related to alcohol related cognitive impairment most notably alcohol related dementia." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_alcohol#United_States

Or how about some Korsakoffs syndrome...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsakoff's_syndrome
"There are six major symptoms of Korsakoff's syndrome:

1. anterograde amnesia and
2. retrograde amnesia, severe memory loss
3. confabulation, that is, invented memories which are then taken as true due to gaps in memory sometimes associated with blackouts
4. meager content in conversation
5. lack of insight
6. apathy - the patients lose interest in things quickly and generally appear indifferent to change.

Conditions resulting in the vitamin deficiency and its effects include chronic alcoholism, and severe malnutrition"

Lets get back to comparing the negative effects on society. Cigarettes may cause more health related costs to the country, but someone who is smoking isn't any more likely to beat their wife/children. Here are some stats from http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/violence.htm (There are more on the page)

"An estimated 480,000 children are mistreated each year by a caretaker with alcohol problems.

In 2002, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 were victims of alcohol-related sexual assault in the U.S.

In 1997, 40 percent of convicted rape and sexual assault offenders said that they were drinking at the time of their crime.

Women whose partners abused alcohol were 3.6 times more likely than other women to be assaulted by their partners."


I absolutely abhor tobacco. So I don't mean to come across like I'm defending it. I just think saying "cigarettes are worse than alcohol" is grossly oversimplifying the matter.

 

[lwien]

I just think saying "cigarettes are worse than alcohol" is grossly oversimplifying the matter.

I don't.

 

[CrazyCracker]

Thank you for the well thought out reply

 

[lwien]

Thank you for the well thought out reply

You're welcome.

 

[THC(g)]

Private establishments should have blatantly obvious signs of Tobacco Smoking Permitted and then go on about how it hurts pregnant women, etc..
Private establishments that used to house smoke and never got the radioactivity levels lowered should have a sign listing that info as well

Cigarettes and alcoholism are both problematic and should be done away with.

weed should be the only recreation drug you ingest. in the form of thick ass vapor smoke <3 vhw