Ever wondered what a proper scientific study of dabbing would look like...?

[herbivore21]

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jts/40/6/40_797/_pdf

This is a study that considered the efficiency of THC and CBD transfer when dabbing on a torch and nail rig using a HE Infiniti. It also considered the major cannabinoid content of 57 different cannabis extracts (solvent based, dry hash, water hash and co2 extracts (the field work and experimental work was clearly carried out before rosin swept the nation) sourced from Californian medical patients.

Among the findings:

* "Some media reports have suggested that taking a dab is the equivalent of smoking 5 joints. This seems highly unlikely given that a standard 1g joint would contain approximately 150mg of THC (15% by weight). Even at 50% transfer efficiency (Elzinga et al., 2015), an individual would be exposed to almost 75mg of THC, well over the amount delivered by the average dab" (Raber et al p.803, as compared with 15mg of THC being absorbed from a 0.04g dab in the same study)

* 83.3% of solvent based concentrates that were tested were found to contain residual solvents. Fascinatingly, the most commonly found residual was isopentane! The authors chalk this up to small amounts of isopentane being found in canned butane which boils at a higher temp than butane/propane.

* Pesticides were detected in one third of all samples. The most common pesticide was Paclobutrazol. This is not registered with the EPA for use on food crops, previous research by the authors has found that 70% of this pesticide can be transferred into the smoke stream when the cannabis is consumed.

Hope you guys enjoy this article, it is open literature too! One limitation is that it does not seem that nail temp was very precisely measured.

I will be trying to make time every now and then to share some openly accessible cannabis research literature with you guys

 

[davesmith]

Amazing stuff @herbivore21 thank you.

If nothing else this article just confirms my love of solvent less extracts. Bubble and sift for the win lol

With the pesticides, just out of interest, is there any opinions on whether they are volatized when we vaporize our flowers? I'm just wondering how important organic bud is to me....I do love my mad hydro.

Can't wait to show all the others this report!

 

[NorVape]

As always, thank you for sharing proper scientific information @herbivore21

 

[herbivore21]

As always, thank you for sharing proper scientific information @herbivore21

A pleasure bro! Hope you are very well and wishing a very happy new year to you and yours

@davesmith you are not wrong my friend, made me so much happier about all the full melt I been dabbin' lately! Rosin and full melt sundaes are the most common thing to be stuck to my dabber. The idea is you get .03g of rosin onto your dabber, then dip it into a small jar of full melt (even 4.5 star will do at a pinch!) and dab away on the tastiest dab rig/nail you got handy

The terp explosion is amazing!!! Such uplifting effect. The rosin mixed in melts quicker and seems to provide a buffer for residue so that even a 4.5 star hash's residue on your nail won't get nasty until you've boil the oil out of your rosin and heads

I've yet to try full melt dry sift. It is the final frontier! I am not likely to ever have enough flowers on hand to try this out until it is legal to grow your own where I am though. Such a shame, I've every reason to believe it is one of the best things you could dab!

Also a good question on vaporizing volatilizing the pesticides or not, I'll look at the article they cite and see what they did and whether it relates. Scientists in scholarly research often make no distinction between vapor and smoke.

 

[cptchronic]

Now that we know an average dab is around 15 mg, how much do you think we receive through our normal vape consumption?

Say we had some like 20% buds and we smoked a .1 sesh, should be 20 mg minus the same variables as in the experiment above like vapor path loss etc. If this is the case we should be around our 15 mg dab more or less.

Should both our dab and vape sesh have the same impact on tolerance?

 

[weenstoned]

Part of me feels the parameters are slightly flawed because lots of stoners roll 0.3-0.5 gram joints. Also I would say that stoners (not the media) who I have heard talking about dabbing and when I explain it to someone would say like smoking a couple of joints, not 5.

Neat study though thanks @herbivore21

 

[randomtoker]

Nice one! Thanks for sharing. Regarding contaminants, it bothers me to no end that so many "lab results" on concentrates that you get at shops are just THC/CBD content, and they skip the pesticide and contaminant test. Bud strains are labeled organic, but it's a total shot in the dark with concentrates. I assume none are organic, but I'd still like to see the pesticide content.

 

[herbivore21]

Now that we know an average dab is around 15 mg, how much do you think we receive through our normal vape consumption?

Say we had some like 20% buds and we smoked a .1 sesh, should be 20 mg minus the same variables as in the experiment above like vapor path loss etc. If this is the case we should be around our 15 mg dab more or less.

Should both our dab and vape sesh have the same impact on tolerance?

That is a good question. I am not sure that this has been studied for vaporizing yet at all and the substantial problem with testing vaporizing is the variety of functional difference between different vapes is substantially greater than the variation between nails. They will not function the same as one another nor even similarly and we would not be able to extrapolate results to other vapes more broadly. Still, with enough time for the body of literature grows, we'll get more of a chance to see how vaping works out for us absorption/efficiency wise!

Also welcome to FC sir! Glad to have you aboard!

Part of me feels the parameters are slightly flawed because lots of stoners roll 0.3-0.5 gram joints. Also I would say that stoners (not the media) who I have heard talking about dabbing and when I explain it to someone would say like smoking a couple of joints, not 5.

Neat study though thanks @herbivore21

Remember that this finding was auxiliary to the research questions of the study. Still, we can definitely do the math on smaller joints (I agree many will smoke smaller doobies, I used to use .5g in a joint back when I did, but this was because I was mixing with maybe .3g of tobacco). For a 15% THC bud containing joint at .5g, we'd have 32.5mg of absorption vs the 15mg from the .04g dab. For a 15% THC bud containing joint at .3g, we'd have 22.5mg absorption vs the .04g dab.

No worries brother, glad to provide some light reading lol

Nice one! Thanks for sharing. Regarding contaminants, it bothers me to no end that so many "lab results" on concentrates that you get at shops are just THC/CBD content, and they skip the pesticide and contaminant test. Bud strains are labeled organic, but it's a total shot in the dark with concentrates. I assume none are organic, but I'd still like to see the pesticide content.

Yes! Man I really feel for my Cali friends on this one. Clearly too many growers are doing the wrong thing with regard to pesticides. We really need mandatory and best scientific practice pesticide panels, residual solvent panels and fungus/microbials testing. That is the basic standard as far as I am concerned for all cannabis being sold. Best practice cannabinoid and terp test panels should be run on all medical cannabis product, since these are the most medically relevant compounds! We don't sell other medicine without clearly labelling the active ingredients, do we?

Thanks for your input here bro

 

[KeroZen]

@randomtoker : but if they are commercial companies, let's say in Cali, why would they want to implement tests that could prove they are using solvents and pesticides that are prohibited in the first place? This sounds completely against their interests.

As usual we can't expect companies to do it on a voluntary basis, it would have to come in the form of a legislation, making the testing mandatory.

 

[herbivore21]

@randomtoker : but if they are commercial companies, let's say in Cali, why would they want to implement tests that could prove they are using solvents and pesticides that are prohibited in the first place? This sounds completely against their interests.

As usual we can't expect companies to do it on a voluntary basis, it would have to come in the form of a legislation, making the testing mandatory.

Agreed, and it should be mandatory legislation. You don't get to sell untested shit on a commercial scale to people where I come from. Not as food, but especially not as medicine!

 

[weenstoned]

One of the things that bothered me about that paper was the inference that closed-loop system distilled butane dewaxed vacuum purged bho is the exception rather than the rule. Seems to be the case in Canada at least for any known extract company. I find it hard to believe that a lot of open-blasted bho ends up in Cali dispensaries, but maybe I am wrong.

 

[herbivore21]

One of the things that bothered me about that paper was the inference that closed-loop system distilled butane dewaxed vacuum purged bho is the exception rather than the rule. Seems to be the case in Canada at least for any known extract company. I find it hard to believe that a lot of open-blasted bho ends up in Cali dispensaries, but maybe I am wrong.

To be fair man, they do not say anything to suggest that Californian extract artists are open blasting, but they could have done better to specify that the literature they refer to is talking about DIY home processing. It is normal to include general background like this in the introduction to such a paper, but typically we would qualify it more closely in scholarly writing. Otherwise it can lead to readers getting a different idea from what was meant (as in your case). This kind of writing is painstaking - I should know!

To answer the question considering how many cali extractors use open blasting is probably grounds for another study of it's own. It would be very, very difficult to find all of those using open blasting though, since I am sure they are not gonna want to be identified as such in the same literature that frowns on this practice (remember, open blasting is polluting hydrocarbons into the atmosphere even if no explosion/fire takes place). I am sure a creatively controlled study could account for this though

 

[weenstoned]

It was more the way they talked about open blasting first then said some people do cls, and some even x and even y when in reality any company selling to a medical dispensary should/probably is doing this. Not a huge deal that could be easily remedied with a bit of editing. Would love to see all the tests/names of the products they tested though as well as what PPM level of solvents/pesticides they measured (maybe I missed that, I did a quick read). Just sayin' personally I am comfortable with a low PPM level of solvents (less so pesticides as those are more unknown) considering the amount of chemicals out there in the world.

 

[herbivore21]

It was more the way they talked about open blasting first then said some people do cls, and some even x and even y when in reality any company selling to a medical dispensary should/probably is doing this. Not a huge deal that could be easily remedied with a bit of editing. Would love to see all the tests/names of the products they tested though as well as what PPM level of solvents/pesticides they measured (maybe I missed that, I did a quick read). Just sayin' personally I am comfortable with a low PPM level of solvents (less so pesticides as those are more unknown) considering the amount of chemicals out there in the world.

I wonder if I could contact the authors and get this info? This is not unusual for academics to oblige such requests from their peers

 

[randomtoker]

@randomtoker : but if they are commercial companies, let's say in Cali, why would they want to implement tests that could prove they are using solvents and pesticides that are prohibited in the first place? This sounds completely against their interests.

As usual we can't expect companies to do it on a voluntary basis, it would have to come in the form of a legislation, making the testing mandatory.

Dinspensaries should always test, and not buy crap. Costs money though. I agree, no one using pesticides, or suspecting their product would have contaminants or residual solvents, would willingly slap a test on their product that showed anything negative. I don't think there's a standard in CA yet for who does the testing (grower, or seller). I've seen product that is marked with test data on the packaging from the grower/producer, and I've seen product that is marked with test data that was done by the dispensary. Seems pretty random right now.

However, dispensaries could start spending the extra cash to do all the testing and position themselves as high-end, premium distributors to stand out from the crowd (there's over 1500 dispensaries in LA alone). If one were to advertise that they lab test everything they buy and only accept a certain standard, it's possible they'd catch on and get popular. I agree that legislation making it mandatory is the obvious best but that's a long road. It's possible that if premium dispensaries became marketable, then others would adopt similar practices to keep up.

A friend recently got her farm organic certified (lots of bureaucracy to do so). She's taken the time and effort to do it to make her product stand out. I think it's a smart approach. As more farms supply product and more outlets sell it, the level of product scrutiny is bound to rise across the board just from competition.

Regardless, we're in interesting times and we'll be seeing a lot of change.

 

[Monsoon]

Then there's the whole issue of the accuracy of testing itself. I've read some controversies lately over inconsistent results between companies partly because standards and processes are still in flux and there's a ton of new companies with no history. I read a story this week that in Washington State that made it sound like some labs are rubber stamping safe on all samples or being too lenient.

 

[herbivore21]

Then there's the whole issue of the accuracy of testing itself. I've read some controversies lately over inconsistent results between companies partly because standards and processes are still in flux and there's a ton of new companies with no history. I read a story this week that in Washington State that made it sound like some labs are rubber stamping safe on all samples or being too lenient.

That info is not a problem for scientific researchers to get hold of if they are conducting a study like this bro, the standards and processes are set in the AHP monographs and other scholarly resources. If the compound has been identified in the scientific literature, scientists have the data to replicate the testing that identified it in the first place

The semi-legal US cannabis industry is in a very different situation to research in the academy.

 

[randomtoker]

I suspect he was referring to the general testing I mentioned (the lab test labels growers and dispensaries put on the product), not so much the research study you shared (which is likely more accurate and carefully executed).

It's a valid point from the consumer perspective. You walk into a shop, how accurate are the lab results of the product you're looking at? Or how relevant? Like for buds, mold tests are only accurate at the time of testing, and really only reflect the small sample tested, not necessarily every nug in the batch. Probably a bad example, but you know what I mean. Even THC and CBD levels are going to change over time depending on how the product is stored and for how long. And I sympathize for anyone not wanting to get their stuff tested for fear of false positives as well.

There won't be a perfect solution but I hope that, at minimum, some sort of testing for harmful content becomes standardized and necessary for commercial sales (medical or recreational). These are the benefits of all of this moving out of the black market and into full legal commerce.

 

[herbivore21]

I suspect he was referring to the general testing I mentioned (the lab test labels growers and dispensaries put on the product), not so much the research study you shared (which is likely more accurate and carefully executed).

It's a valid point from the consumer perspective. You walk into a shop, how accurate are the lab results of the product you're looking at? Or how relevant? Like for buds, mold tests are only accurate at the time of testing, and really only reflect the small sample tested, not necessarily every nug in the batch. Probably a bad example, but you know what I mean. Even THC and CBD levels are going to change over time depending on how the product is stored and for how long. And I sympathize for anyone not wanting to get their stuff tested for fear of false positives as well.

There won't be a perfect solution but I hope that, at minimum, some sort of testing for harmful content becomes standardized and necessary for commercial sales (medical or recreational). These are the benefits of all of this moving out of the black market and into full legal commerce.

Oh I definitely and if that is what my friend @Monsoon meant I agree, it definitely seems that testing is not universally up to scratch in any jurisdiction yet. I've said elsewhere in this thread and others that I firmly believe mandatory independent lab tests should be done on all retail cannabis products as a matter of law. I share your hopes completely on that one. There can be as close to a perfect solution as I can think of:

I think we could really see the MJ industry work more closely with academia - I'm thinking a large scale research project where the content of everything tested can come through and be recorded for use as archival data in future studies to further benefit cannabis users of all kinds and public knowledge more broadly. I would love to see this come to fruition, it seems so mutually beneficial for two different groups (researchers and cannabis users) who each have something that the other wants (accurate real world data and peace of mind respectively)!

Who knows, we might see something happen in this space through the industry themselves developing their techniques and methods too.

I definitely understand what you mean on possible issues in analytical methods for testing there too. This is why we really should be having legally mandated and provided best practice analytical chemistry guidelines, outlining which methods to use to perform which tests and all relevant caveats for all cannabis testing facilities. Regular auditing would have to happen at these facilities too to make sure that they are compliant.

 

[NorVape]

The approach you mention there, Herb, would also help the process of international legalization.

My country went from being medival with it's arcaic and inhumane drug laws, and in a VERY short period of time there is a lot of public talk about change. I've never dreamed it could move this fast!

The more science to back us up, the less the ignorant evildoers can stop this movement, with their lies and their fear.

My gf writes her master thesis in drug policies, and she says that most studies of cannabis older than some years are just ridicolous, whether they are hard science or social science.

But she says now though, more and more proper studies are being done, where the researches seem to understand the subject at hand.

Interesting times indeed!

 

[KittensTasteYummy]

I can only speak IRT where I live, USA. I've recently seen the topic of lab testing cannabis, or lack there of, discussed a bit on the Congressional Floor (sadly as a negative, or danger, to allowing its legal use). Hopefully this will gain some positive traction, and soon!

I don't understand how all of our leaders haven't realized the war on drugs has not only failed, but actually caused serious harm and death to people the world over! The negatives far outweigh any positives that resulted from this war. My comment applies especially to me at home in the USA, considering Regan & Bush essentially roped the rest of the world into following suit, and future Presidents only made it worse. I'm glad the tide is turning, I only hope it speeds up.

If I may respectfully suggest (should this apply).. we should all, the world over, consider contacting our respective government representatives and telling them how passionate we are about mandatory certified lab testing, to include standards and guidelines that must be followed! Ask them to take action on our behalf! Perhaps even provide some professional or noteworthy references to the current issue along with being able to state why this would be a positive solution and how it would fix the problem. The more they hear from us the quicker our representatives will consider taking action on our behalf!

Of course if you live in China, Saudia Arabia, North Korea (I highly doubt Kimmy is going to be surfing here), or one of the other countries with deadly consequences should you be caught hanging out with Jane, maybe you shouldn't contact your rep's... at least not via a traceable means. I also feel very sad for you!

 

[NorVape]

Unfortunately, you don't have to live in one of those places to face consequences for speaking up.

If I were to do so they would probably kick in my door. And according to the UN my country is the best place to live in the world.

Unless you prefer cannabis to booze.

Yes, America ruined so much with the War on Drugs, but now you lead the way on changing all that, and you should take pride in that

 

[KittensTasteYummy]

Unfortunately, you don't have to live in one of those places to face consequences for speaking up.

If I were to do so they would probably kick in my door. And according to the UN my country is the best place to live in the world.

Unless you prefer cannabis to booze.

Yes, America ruined so much with the War on Drugs, but now you lead the way on changing all that, and you should take pride in that

Sorry, that is horrible news indeed! I should have further specified that I also included you in the group of those who shouldn't...


I do take pride, especially living in California , however I still feel it's mostly the individual states making progress and that our Federal Government is still against any real change!

One day this will hopefully change everywhere and we will all be able to enjoy life without fear or having it ended!

 

[KittensTasteYummy]

Sorry for DP, it's been way to long for me to edit my last one.

Although I'm aware of many of the dangers associated with consuming and inhaling both pesticides and other chemicals, I had absolutely no idea that cannabis contamination was so prevalent throughout California!

Very few dispensaries in my local area perform lab tests. When I see them they are often due to an out of the area seller who had the testing done prior to sale (most often, Humboldt County, CA). The few that do lab test, sell bud I can just afford but not concentrates. I generally Dab, so I'm forced to decide between non-lab tested concentrates or running out of meds more than a week early. Running out is usually my second choice. I thought I had made a great decision as my current favorite is among the no lab test variety, but declares their supplier is organic and uses no chemicals when growing. Consequently, I figured I was safe and didn't ponder the matter further.

This thread has opened my eyes and my innocence has been taken! I called my favorite dispensary today and asked about their organic claims. They have no proof, info is "word of mouth." They also won't tell me the name of their grower (no surprise there, and I both understand and can appreciate their right to keep their grower secret). With nothing to backup their claim, I'm now skeptical of both them and all other non-testing shops.

Thanks to @herbivore21, I've discovered the joys and ease of extracting your own Rosin at home. I've been saving up to make my own Rosin-Vice with @Joel W. plates. Now that I've had time to ponder and do a bit of additional research, I will absolutely be speeding up my vice purchase! Thankfully I can just afford between 1-2 oz of lab tested Jane per month. Sadly, it won't quite be the super dank and sticky variety a lot of my past non-tested concentrate purchases were made from, but I think this is likely a better option than inhaling a side helping of poison! Soon, I will be able to make my own, on-demand, fear free concentrate! I can't wait!

It feels like near every day on FC, I discover a new tidbit of knowledge, or an amazing new device or accessory, that transforms my experience in a very positive way. I've said it before and I'll likely say it again (many times)... I love FC and am ecstatic daily to have accidentally ended up here in the first place!

 

[herbivore21]

Sorry for DP, it's been way to long for me to edit my last one.

Although I'm aware of many of the dangers associated with consuming and inhaling both pesticides and other chemicals, I had absolutely no idea that cannabis contamination was so prevalent throughout California!

Very few dispensaries in my local area perform lab tests. When I see them they are often due to an out of the area seller who had the testing done prior to sale (most often, Humboldt County, CA). The few that do lab test, sell bud I can just afford but not concentrates. I generally Dab, so I'm forced to decide between non-lab tested concentrates or running out of meds more than a week early. Running out is usually my second choice. I thought I had made a great decision as my current favorite is among the no lab test variety, but declares their supplier is organic and uses no chemicals when growing. Consequently, I figured I was safe and didn't ponder the matter further.

This thread has opened my eyes and my innocence has been taken! I called my favorite dispensary today and asked about their organic claims. They have no proof, info is "word of mouth." They also won't tell me the name of their grower (no surprise there, and I both understand and can appreciate their right to keep their grower secret). With nothing to backup their claim, I'm now skeptical of both them and all other non-testing shops.

Thanks to @herbivore21, I've discovered the joys and ease of extracting your own Rosin at home. I've been saving up to make my own Rosin-Vice with @Joel W. plates. Now that I've had time to ponder and do a bit of additional research, I will absolutely be speeding up my vice purchase! Thankfully I can just afford between 1-2 oz of lab tested Jane per month. Sadly, it won't quite be the super dank and sticky variety a lot of my past non-tested concentrate purchases were made from, but I think this is likely a better option than inhaling a side helping of poison! Soon, I will be able to make my own, on-demand, fear free concentrate! I can't wait!

It feels like near every day on FC, I discover a new tidbit of knowledge, or an amazing new device or accessory, that transforms my experience in a very positive way. I've said it before and I'll likely say it again (many times)... I love FC and am ecstatic daily to have accidentally ended up here in the first place!

Damn man a shame to hear more places aren't testing, but I suppose until the new regulations come in (I believe they had testing requirements?) it is the wild west in Cali still.

The trick is to find the best $ to resin ratio if you are a predominately dabbing kinda guy like me. Try to stop thinking of your bud in ounces but instead in grams of resin. Learn how to identify good resin coverage and understand how resin at different states of degradation will look - this is often as good a predictor of effect as the strain! I have found bud that was $400 an ounce that gave me 9 x as much resin as stuff that was 280 an ounce. I might have only gotten an ounce instead of the two I would have wanted, but it gave me way more than two ounces of the other stuff woulda got me.

If you want more info on how to spot good resin on the flower, let me know by PM always love to chat about this stuff, more than any other topic on FC

Glad to see that you've picked up plenty of great info here just like I did bro It's been a pleasure making your acquaintance here! You'll be stoked with a vise squish setup once you have it.

I am spoilt for options of all the different kinds of extracts I can make (various solvent extractions/dry ice sift/bubble hash/rosin/more advanced shit coming soon) but rosin and full melt bubble hash have become my mainstays. The rosin wows you with flavor, but the bubble just knocks you over with taste! A good buddy of mine and describes full melt as 'too much cordial concentrate' to give you an idea of how much flavor we are talking about lol. He actually prefers the somewhat less terpy rosin to the full melt. I find higher terpene content to be so much more helpful than higher THC. The terps on my current Cluster Bomb flowers have a wonderful uplifting effect!

Rosin is the best place to start when making concentrates and you are gonna have a blast squishing out low temp, high pressure vise rosin with Joel W's plates Then all ya gotta do is find a good consistent dispensary hookup for high quality, high resin yielding flowers at a good price