Europe's legalization

[Seek]

I've never thought we would have to discuss this in here as this community is quite scientific.
Autism is a spectrum of a brain development disorder, it makes the brain structure slightly different.
Vaccines are low or deactivated doses of a pathogen that makes your immune system learn what is is and how to kill it.
So your body can be immune to it even when it get attacked for reals.
How, in any kind of logic could these two be linked?
A low dose of a pathogen could at most make some threshold starting symptoms before it gets killed.
You can't change the structure of the brain like that, it must be genes or a constant exposure to some mutagen. Not one injection every few months/years or once in a lifetime.
Also it's easy to say there are mountain of evidence, but can you find a serious scientific study confirming a link?
Just a bunch of people repeating a myth is not an evidence.
A fact that msot autist have been vaccinated is not evicende either because most people get vaccinated.
You could say that every autist drank dyhydrogen monooxide at least once in their lifetime, so it might be athe cause...?
And even is we suppose that is really is a big conspiracy, that there is some special kind of long-acting mutagen in vaccines and goverment is doing that on purpose - hwo twould that make any sense?
It couldn't be for money, the vaccines are not expensive and frequent enough to really make a lot of money and I don't think autism could make the goverment or pharmany any money either.
There is no cure or even treatment for autism, so there are no pill to constatly sell to them to make money and severe autists probably hurt economy by nbot being able to work and also stressing their family so they also have less time to be productive.
So why wouldthe goverment even want to make people autistic?
Even if their plot was much more evil and they wanted to kill us off, because of overpopulation - even that wouldn't make sense, because autism is not fatal and autists are not killing more people that neurotypicals.
Just think about it...
Anyway this thread should be about legalization, right? This has got quite off topic...
I agreee that big-pharma doesn't exactly have our best interest in mind, but that doesn't mean every single thing connected to them absolutely must be a huge a and insance conspiracy.
Vaccines are capable of completely eradicating horrible diseases like they erased smallpox. Only if all the people cooperate like they did in smallpox epidemic. Even if it would somehow cause autism in small percent of people, a one geration with more autists would be worth eradicating a disease forever.

 

[KeroZen]

In this recent article >> https://www.rt.com/usa/390222-autism-research-suramin-symptoms/

"The causes of autism, however, are not yet fully understood.

Research has shown that cells harden their membranes in response to attacks from viruses or pollutants. The reaction, known as ‘cellular danger response’ (CDR), is a common defense mechanism that allows cells to wait for danger to pass. Autism is thought to develop during early childhood when cells can become ‘stuck’ in this mode."

The alleged problem with vaccines is not the deactivated pathogen, it's the adjuvants (ex: aluminum etc) but this is completely off-topic in this thread. And I don't think there is any conspiracy to do it on purpose, they have to add the adjuvants because they can't produce the actives in large enough quantities so they have to "boost" the vaccines induced response.

 

[kellya86]

I've never thought we would have to discuss this in here as this community is quite scientific

And as such we should be open minded to all possibilities.... until undeniable evidence proves otherwise....

"The causes of autism, however, are not yet fully understood.

Neither is the brain, body, or universe...
We know diddly squat in the big picture...
The world may well be flat.... not really...

 

[The Beagle]

@The Beagle , I was shocked to hear about Italian government passing compulsory child vaccinations recently!
And they are trying to crack down on alternative (basically anti-establishment) mecia with a bill to fine and imprison people for speaking against them and their treacherous ways, with tetms like "harms the public interest."

So that anyone who RIGHTLY says vaccinations cause autism, coukd be jailed.
The public interest is to be dumbed down and basically murdered!

As a rationalist and a firm believer in the scientific method I absolutely disagree with you on this.
I think that compulsory vaccinations is the right thing to do in my country as anti scientific propaganda and general ignorance made the immunization rates drop in the last years and that's not acceptable in a first world country.
In my opinion 99% of alternative cures and medicines are not more than snake oil and usually only benefits the pockets of people exploiting other people ignorance, fear and in a lot of cases despair for an incurable illness.

So I think you are right about Italy sadly being a long way from legalisatiin right now.

I think the opposite: one of the main reason why we will not see legalization happening in the next years is the same behind the drop in vaccinations: ignorance and distrust regarding the scientific method. Politicians speaking about links between the use of weed and heroin addictions share this ignorance and distrust with politicians spreading fear regarding vaccinations.

There is a mountain of evidence proving the link between vaccinations and damage and mental health problems and autism.

As far as I know there's no evidence linking vaccinations to autism and most of the "proof" I've been showed is nothing more than bad science and biased researches.

One last thing: I'm not going to further discuss this issue here as I know from experience that this leads to nothing except for reciprocal accusations, flames and general bitterness as we are debating things concerning personal beliefs that (sadly) often goes beyond scientific evidence and demonstrable facts.

 

[Seek]

And as such we should be open minded to all possibilities.... until undeniable evidence proves otherwise....

I think I'm fairly open-minded, that's why I gave it such extensive thought and asked for some scientific evidence for it, instead of just denying and closing the conversation.
Well, i kinda tried to close it, but that was because we're discussing this in the wrong thread and not because I want to shut this conversation down.
Some mod probably should cut this conversation and make it into a new thread...
Open-mindedness is great, but also should be accompanied by a healthy dose of skepticism and logic so that you wouldn't be unqetionalbly open to something that doesn't actually make sense and could hurt you.
I thought there wasn't any science linking these, until I've read KeroZen' response - which is actually very recent and donesn't actually sound like nonsense.
If there is a link, a mechanism like that is probably the only way it can be linked, and I'd like to see this reseacrched further.
When the claim was made, it din't have any evidence back it up, for a long time, and it still not there yet.
And since it could only make sense in a very rare and unusual case, I've used the Occam's razor to decide to believe there is no link until proven otherwise.
Occam's razor doesn't prove anything, but it's a useful tool to decive what to temporarily believe until science finds out.

Neither is the brain, body, or universe...
We know diddly squat in the big picture...

Yes we do. I think the science already know at least half of the entire big picture. We've yet to figure out some difficult details, like quantum mechanics and consciousness etc.
The brain was not understood at all for a long time, but recently it's been studied and understood quite well, we almost know how exactly does it function in its entirety.
The consciousness is not understood yet, I think it might have something to do with quantum entaglement, but science will probably find out soon.
WE also know a lot about out body and universe, only figuring out some complex interactions in out body and few extremes in the universe, suich as black holes.
I wouldn't underestimate how much does humanity know, I'm already really impressed how we figured all of this out.
When you have a puzzle at least 50% completed, you can already see the big picture clearly, and that's where the science is right now.

 

[BaroneBarra]

Yes.
Science is not democratic.
"You can't decide the speed of light by show of hands".

Please, please don't rely on articles on some webpages to form your opinion. 1 out of 1000 people have permanent consequences from measles. 1/2500 dies, it happened recently in Portugal and Austria (the last country in Europe for vaccines coverage).

Scientific method is rigorous, and not questionable: have you ever tried to publish something? It will be tore apart by colleagues, every comma will be scrutinized thousands times, every data discussed.
It's easy to go to newspapers and give them a great headline about how we were all misled all our lives. It's easy to spread accusations so you can get votes from people that believe everything is debatable, and the Illuminati are out to screw us. It's also easy to convince a mother or a father of a ill child that there's hope, there's alternative medicine capable of saving them.

There are a lot of things that could be said about this topic, one of them is, as @Seek said, that "Big pharma" has no interest in vaccines: they are dirty cheap, and they prevent illnesses for which, otherwise, you would have to buy hundreds of meds, maybe for all your life.

But even discussing the merit is futile.

This is medicine, it's science.
If you find a scientific article that links vaccines and autism, then rely on that.
Spoiler, though: they don't exist.

 

[The Beagle]

I wouldn't underestimate how much does humanity know, I'm already really impressed how we figured all of this out.

This is something that drives me mad: we, as a species, have obtained so much knowledge and went so far in our technological achievements and yet a lot of people (who usually benefit daily from all of this) choose to ignore or despise it.

Science is not democratic.

Scientific method is rigorous, and not questionable

But even discussing the merit is futile.

 

[Alexis]

Some interesting statistics and facts on vaccination safety, risks and the huge sums of money paid out in compensation fir vaccine damage, a well as the unsrupulous methods by which the drug companies have absolved themselves from responsibility in recent years.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2015/06/23/vaccine-injury-data.aspx

 

[C No Ego]

Vaccinations?????

THCV ( tetrahydrocannabavarin )

and THCVa ( tetrahydrocannabavarin acid)

the new ( OLD) super drugs for the world.... found in wild land race cannabis genetics slightly untouched by man... in the future for sure but just so you know NOW

 

[stardustsailor]

Back to the topic.

It seems to me that actually what's holding EU to adapt a more "soft"
legal -mainly- approach towards cannabis is public health issues.
Yes,except if I'm understanding something wrong ...

It's because in EU we do not VAPORISE that much as in the US ,
that it's holdin' " 'em " back !!!

Read for yourselves :


http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/4541/TDAT17001ENN.pdf
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/edr2017
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-developments/2017

 

[kellya86]

Back to the topic.

It seems to me that actually what's holding EU to adapt a more "soft"
legal -mainly- approach towards cannabis is public health issues.
Yes,except if I'm understanding something wrong ...

It's because in EU we do not VAPORISE that much as in the US ,
that it's holdin' " 'em " back !!!

Read for yourselves :


http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/4541/TDAT17001ENN.pdf
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/edr2017
http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/edr/trends-developments/2017

This is something that annoys me..

All the published scare mongering relates to smoking of cannabis...

Even in the kids school books, they state that cannabis causes cancer....
Then in the small print with an asterisk, it's states when smoked.... what bullshit is that...
Lying to my kids...

Alot of the negative studies published also use combustion as the delivery method...

It's all just manipulation of the truth to aid their agenda.....

 

[Seek]

Well, majority of people are unwilling to vape or eat it and they will always smoke it. It should be studied how the mj smoke affects you too.
But I agree it's painting mj in much more negative light than it deserves.
Ignorant people are making it dangerous and then we study that danger.
If only everyone vaped, right? But wanting all people to be smart and responsible is too much.
Have have a lot of smart people, scientist, people who figured everything out...yet still most poeple are stupid and we just have to deal with that.
If a IQ of 100 is average, then half of people are below that.

 

[C No Ego]

^ regardless of if you eat it or smoke it the psychosomatic circuits are activated...

people need to choose over all health to align their actions with their intent... when it happens smoking will not be on the radar of the health minded individual

 

[blackstone]

There's a good argument for legalization I saw once that applies to distributing safety messages on consumption methods or other warnings,
such as "Quit tobacco and smoking, buy a herb vape".
Basically, safety bureaus have found the most effective place to put these messages is at the point of sale.

Like how a beer mat says you shouldn't drink and drive.
And it's impossible to do that with prohibition.
Besides protecting people from other substances or violence!

Holland have long been ahead of everyone on this ever since you're allowed smoke the herb in a coffeeshop, but not tobacco!
I thought that was great coming from a place where they allow you drink and smoke filthy tobacco till you suffer from it, but not even vape/eat the other thing!

 

[C No Ego]

There's a good argument for legalization I saw once that applies to distributing safety messages on consumption methods or other warnings,
such as "Quit tobacco and smoking, buy a herb vape".
Basically, safety bureaus have found the most effective place to put these messages is at the point of sale.

Like how a beer mat says you shouldn't drink and drive.
And it's impossible to do that with prohibition.
Besides protecting people from other substances or violence!

Holland have long been ahead of everyone on this ever since you're allowed smoke the herb in a coffeeshop, but not tobacco!
I thought that was great coming from a place where they allow you drink and smoke filthy tobacco till you suffer from it, but not even vape/eat the other thing!

the world of opposites where we are allowed to legally consume the unhealthiest stuff and it is condoned yet introduce a bio active healthy substance to your experience and go straight to jail! it is called reverse psychology, lol

 

[Drexciya]

There's a good argument for legalization I saw once that applies to distributing safety messages on consumption methods or other warnings,
such as "Quit tobacco and smoking, buy a herb vape".
Basically, safety bureaus have found the most effective place to put these messages is at the point of sale.

Like how a beer mat says you shouldn't drink and drive.
And it's impossible to do that with prohibition.
Besides protecting people from other substances or violence!

Holland have long been ahead of everyone on this ever since you're allowed smoke the herb in a coffeeshop, but not tobacco!
I thought that was great coming from a place where they allow you drink and smoke filthy tobacco till you suffer from it, but not even vape/eat the other thing!

The Netherlands are indeed ahead when it comes to giving its people an easy access to buying marijuana with a maximum of 5 grams to most countries and it has been for a while.

But I wouldn't say the Netherlands are ahead when it comes to knowing the possible health benefits neither when it comes to using it in a more healthy way. Most users are recreational, most users use tobacco. Even in coffeeshops the knowledge is sometimes scarce when it comes to these two points.

The government is not promoting anything healthy in the marijuana department. Funnier even, the place where you can buy your 5 grams still does not have a legal way to buy the stock the sell at the counter.

 

[stardustsailor]

Cannabis ( great ) news from Greece:

Cannabis usage for medical purposes is officially decriminalised in Greece .

 

[blackstone]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tribution-spain-region-petition-a7816981.html
Catalonia legalises marijuana consumption, cultivation and distribution

It follows a campaign which gathered 67,500 petition signatures, forcing a government debate


This region of Spain includes Barcelona as it's capital, so all those social clubs have got the green light it seems. What a great example to set to all it's neighbors.
Unfortunately it aims to make cannabis tourism difficult or impossible, but it's all good really?

Also this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...ganisation-drugs-decriminalised-a7818726.htmlUnited Nations and World Health Organisation call for drugs to be decriminalised

 

[The Beagle]

Unfortunately it aims to make cannabis tourism difficult or impossible, but it's all good really?

I've been to BCN two weeks ago, I think the clubs are going to find a way to sell to tourists as the market is too big. If that's not the case say hallo to your black market dealers harassing people on the streets just like happened in the NL when the Wietpas was enforced.

 

[The Beagle]

So from yesterday is official: the italian parliament will discuss only the part of the new law regarding medical use of cannabis. No legalization or at least decriminalization of recreational use. No growing for yourself, not even if you are a registered medical user because it would be impossible to control the quality of what you grow and "no doctro would allow that". We choose to just ignore what's happening in the rest of the world and keep our retrograde policy.

 

[BaroneBarra]

So from yesterday is official: the italian parliament will discuss only the part of the new law regarding medical use of cannabis. No legalization or at least decriminalization of recreational use. No growing for yourself, not even if you are a registered medical user because it would be impossible to control the quality of what you grow and "no doctro would allow that". We choose to just ignore what's happening in the rest of the world and keep our retrograde policy.

I've been furious for two days. Politics in Italy is becoming a joke, it's a fucking race to be more stupid that the other.
I hate to sound this populist, and I strongly reject the "politicians are all the same" position. Deep in me all these years I've always thought "They're not great but I mean, at least the party historically is from the left. At least it's them and not on of the other two comedians" but now it's really hard to justify their actions.

Anyway, it's a real shame.
We lost yet another great opportunity as a country to be forward-looking.

Guess I'll just have to vape my sorrows away

 

[C No Ego]

So from yesterday is official: the italian parliament will discuss only the part of the new law regarding medical use of cannabis. No legalization or at least decriminalization of recreational use. No growing for yourself, not even if you are a registered medical user because it would be impossible to control the quality of what you grow and "no doctro would allow that". We choose to just ignore what's happening in the rest of the world and keep our retrograde policy.

who can grow it? is it a only two large approved companies can grow it monopoly?!?

 

[The Beagle]

who can grow it? is it a only two large approved companies can grow it monopoly?!?

It will be all state grown in a single plant in Florence run by the army. Because you know, weed is pretty dangerous stuff.

Deep in me all these years I've always thought "They're not great but I mean, at least the party historically is from the left. At least it's them and not on of the other two comedians" but now it's really hard to justify their actions.

Same for me, they just left another political battle to the M5S because of their cowardice and fear of displeasing the mythical "center" while they're losing their natural constituency.
Ma d'altronde è quello che capita se dipendi dai voti di Alfano...
It's going to be very difficult not to abstain in next year elections.

 

[C No Ego]

It will be all state grown in a single plant in Florence run by the army. Because you know, weed is pretty dangerous stuff.



Same for me, they just left another political battle to the M5S because of their cowardice and fear of displeasing the mythical "center" while they're losing their natural constituency.
Ma d'altronde è quello che capita se dipendi dai voti di Alfano...
It's going to be very difficult not to abstain in next year elections.

Ok, well if the growers are lucky they will not suffer transposed reefer madness while watering the plants... at least the growers are armed army vets and can protect themselves if the plants decide it is not enough to just absorb sunlight peacefully but decide to suddenly do something else harmful?!?

 

[Pustupillo]

Ok, well if the growers are lucky they will not suffer transposed reefer madness while watering the plants... at least the growers are armed army vets and can protect themselves if the plants decide it is not enough to just absorb sunlight peacefully but decide to suddenly do something else harmful?!?

LOOL yeah

I remember an italian television news where in Rome police found an underground cannabis grow with more than 200 plants, and also found some anti-gas mask, and the news said that that masks were needed to protect from Toxic exhalations of the cannabis plants LOOL toxic exhalations... That mask was needed to protect from Pesticides and disinfectants used in large scale / high humidity cannabis grow from SHIT people, this is the truth.

And an other cool story is that if you get caught growing 1-2 plants, your situation will be written on a shit town news paper and police will weight NOT only your flowers, but the ENTIRE PLANT (jar, leaf, soil) so from 2 little plants you could get like 2 kilograms of cannabis LOOL

You know what? In italy 90% of the population is TV / SOCCER / RELIGION addicted, so they already have their own drugs, they dont give a fuck about cannabis, UNTIL they get old, maybe with alzhaimer for example, and the doctor prescribes cannabis as the main treathment (this happened to a my old aunt, she was in HATE with cannabis, now she LOVE and grow it for her pains and IT WORK)

We live in an IGNORANT world guys.. We are destroing our planet but who gives a fuck. The most important thing is thet at the end of the month we get our little money to buy our shit.