Does Cannabis mess with our natural “normal” brain rewarding system?

[Curious Gorilla]

CWS is real, but at worst it is a passing "moderate illness

Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome would seem to be a term being used to replace Cannabis Withdrawal SYMPTOMS.
Symptoms and Syndrome are not interchangeable, they mean very different things.
It sounds sexier and cooler than withdrawal, and if You have a Syndrome You have an illness other than Addiction......Hooray.

Is there such a thing as Opiate Withdrawal Syndrome?
What about Meth Amphetamine Withdrawal Syndrome?
Have a google. if there is NO such thing for Heroin or Meth , then its Effete Bullshit.

Addiction itself is viewed as an illness and is not necessarily to one specific drug or activity.
Cannabis Withdrawal does not make You an Addict. Neither does Morhine withdrawal.

Language like Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome is a meaningless term being used to sex up research papers to make money . The people writing the paper/meta data analysis need it to be a 'syndrome' so it can seem they are discovering something new and important, and are setting the market up for any number of must have products for all the poor people suffering from their
Cock Wit Syndrome Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome.

"The cannabis withdrawal syndrome (CWS) is a criterion of cannabis use disorders (CUDs)(Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders – Fifth Edition) and cannabis dependence (International Classification of Diseases [ICD]-10)"
Or in actual language not meant to bamboozle it says---
The cannabis withdrawal syndrome (CWS) is a way of judging of cannabis use disorders (CUDs)
this statement is Non-sense.

What the statement actualy means is-
the (Singular) Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome is a way of judging a whole spectrum of (Many) Cannabis Use Disorders.

The fact they appear to have taken their opening statement from an approved medical manual only makes it worse. The problem is wide spread if that is the case.

Someone please correct me if my understanding of the language is wrong.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criterion

Unless im mistaken completely and CWS stands for Cock Withdrawal Syndrome, when it slips out at just the wrong moment.........

does downregulation actually make any difference beyond increasing tolerance?

I am not convinced downregulation of the CB1 receptor is responsible for increased tolerance.
I think tolerance to Cannabis is a completely different matter to tolerance of Alchohol,Opiates or Meth. Or Heart medications.
I was under the impression that downregulation of the CB1 receptor is part of/responsible for(?) the general downregulation of the Immune system that is actualy beneficial to health in a variety of ways, particularly for those with inflammatory issues / immune system imbalances ?
Reducing immune response reduces inflammation caused by a variety of things. And can help with auto-immune conditions.
That doesnt mean it weakens Your immune system. Somehow it does the opposite but I dont fully understand it yet.
After stopping Cannabis use seems there is a 'bounce back ' effect where there is a slight over correction in the system while rebalancing. otherwise known as 'withdrawal'.
It seems Tolerance with Cannabis modulates very fast.
Building tolerance seems to take longer than reducing it.
I can cut my use to less than 1/4 my normal use . Pain being lower, I have NO issue doing this.
When I stop or reduce My use I need to build tolerance to take enough to treat pain and inflamation without feeling Out of My Head.
So high tolerance is not such an issue for me.
But then, im not trying to get High. Thats just a happy side effect when im lucky. (I do like to push beyond my tolerance on occasion.)

 

[GoldenBud]

I was under the impression that downregulation of the CB1 receptor is part of/responsible for(?) the general downregulation of the Immune system that is actualy beneficial to health in a variety of ways, particularly for those with inflammatory issues / immune system imbalances ?

I think CB1 is a small part of the bigger picture, the bigger picture is the synaptic connections. our brain has 100 billion synaptic connections

 

[bhasma]

Cannabis Withdrawal Symptoms together describe the supposed Cannabis Withdrawal Syndrome which has various underlying causes.

According to D’Souza et al. (2016) "Rapid Changes in CB1 Receptor Availability in Cannabis Dependent Males after Abstinence from Cannabis" -- Repeated exposure to cannabinoids is associated with the development of tolerance which likely reflect adaptive changes in the CB1 receptor system ... Thus, Cannabis exposure, tolerance and CB1 receptor downregulation are linked.

According to McKinney et al. (2008) "Dose-Related Differences in the Regional Pattern of Cannabinoid Receptor Adaptation and in Vivo Tolerance Development to Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol" -- Repeated cannabinoid administration produces alterations in cannabinoid receptors that include receptor down-regulation and desensitization of receptor-mediated G-protein activation and second messenger effects ... This study was designed to directly examine regional differences in adaptation of cannabinoid receptors after administration of varying doses of THC and to assess tolerance produced by these administration paradigms ... These results demonstrate differential THC tolerance in vivo and region-dependent adaptation of CB1 receptors and cannabinoid-mediated G-protein activation as a function of chronic THC dose.

 

[Curious Gorilla]

According to McKinney et al. (2008) "Dose-Related Differences in the Regional Pattern of Cannabinoid Receptor Adaptation and in Vivo Tolerance Development to Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol"

Damn.
Now i have to go read that too........
My reading list gets delayed due to......MORE Reading. Wheres my Glassware? wHERES mY gLASSES?

 

[Curious Gorilla]

McKinney et al. (2008) "Dose-Related Differences in the Regional Pattern of Cannabinoid Receptor Adaptation and in Vivo Tolerance Development to Δ9-Tetrahydrocannabinol" --

''This study assessed cannabinoid receptor function in the brain and cannabinoid-mediated behaviors after chronic treatment with different dosing regimens of THC. Mice were treated twice per day for 6.5 days with the following: vehicle, 10 mg/kg THC, or escalating doses of 10 to 20 to 30 or 10 to 30 to 60 mg/kg THC.''

About 20% to 25% of the weight of Cannabis is resin. Say its good weed and it has 25% THC.
i can use upto 2.5 grams on a bad day.
That works out to about 0.15625 grams of THC.
Split into 2 doses per day, as with the mice, the dose im on is 0.78125
Or 0.010557grams per Kg of body weight.
So the STARTING Dose for the mice is the same as a heavy human cannabis user.
The mice being given 0.060grams twice a day are taking the equivalent of a human consuming around 15 grams a day.........Those Lucky Mice. I hope they were not operating any heavy machinery.....
So yes 15 grams of Cannabis a day would cause some tolerance or other issues.
Not so sure if thats so at the 10mg mark that im at.
For most recreational users at less than a fith of the minimum Mouse Dose or 0.5grams of Cannabis per day, I dont think Tolerance is the issue at that level.
Damn straight tolerance is an issue for that .060gram twice a day Mouse.
I question it being any real issue for anyone capable of setting a daily dose and sticking to it, but that is somewhat different to outright Recreational use, which should cause little to NO Tolerance or withdrawal issues ?

Still need to understand the rest of the article, I think I can see why it suggests CB1 receptor as related to tolerance.
I do not know enough to tell it is definitive evidence. It was also a very short investigation. 6.5 days does not seem long enough?
Would they have gained more data running it for longer? Or is there a reason for the 6.5 day cuttoff?

Now back to read the bits I dont understand. oh how i love to cross reference things I can barely understand.
I am begining to think I am a masochist.

Many and various chemicals used in washing powder/liquid, cleaning agents and household chemicals can effect neurotransmitters and other brain chemistry in a more detrimental fashion than Cannabis. Including Benzene.
There are so many things far more harmfull that are intentionaly hidden or played down.

 

[bhasma]

I guess the initial experiments are trying to prove principles, and more nuanced work then needs to be done on real world, human situations (and that's what D'Souza's later work did). My experience tells me that over the decades my own tolerance has gradually increased, only reducing as the result of a T(olerance) break, scarcity, or self-control.

 

[Curious Gorilla]

I guess the initial experiments are trying to prove principles, and more nuanced work needs to be done on real world, human situations. My experience tells me that over the decades my own tolerance has gradually increased, only reducing as the result of a T(olerance) break, scarcity, or self-control.

Does Your Tolerance reset to your original 'baseline of tolerance' each time You stop or do You find Your overall Baseline Tolerance increased over time ?
Is the Tolerance related to only the High, the painkilling effects , anti inflammatory effects or others?

I find the anti-inflammatory aspects do not seem to build tolerance but need a certain amount to achieve the desired reduction dependant on pain levels in my joints but with other sources of pain it can seem tolerance related?
Certainly I find I am ,unfortunately , more inured to the more fun effects of Cannabis than I once was, but when I stop or hugely reduce my intake, even only for a couple of days it is definately a Giggle when I start again.
It is hard to see in ones self with something so Subjective.

 

[bhasma]

Does Your Tolerance reset to your original 'baseline of tolerance' each time You stop or do You find Your overall Baseline Tolerance increased over time ?
Is the Tolerance related to only the High, the painkilling effects , anti inflammatory effects or others?

I think overall the baseline has risen, and the greater high after a break only lasts a short time. While normally using I'm not sure that I really get high anymore (not like I did, unless it's a massive dose), and that's not what I'm looking for. My only indication of tolerance is general satisfaction per gram, and while I began with grams I gradually progressed to quarters, halves, and now ounces. When I have stopped it doesn't take long for me to get back to normal usage patterns, which is unnecessary and probably just force of habit. My usage dropped when I started vaping and hasn't risen since then.

 

[bhasma]

If my baseline tolerance seems to have risen, then I guess that my "downregulation" is not completely reversed and I probably need more than two weeks off to properly reset. I have only stopped longer (more than one month) a couple of times and that did make quite a difference to tolerance, but it bounced right back within another month of using. I do suffer withdrawal when I stop but it's only a few days of relatively minor discomfort (the worst thing is sleeplessness and lost appetite) and I know it will pass. What I enjoy about using is greater inspiration and noticing details and connections I would otherwise have missed. It helps to pass time in dull situations, adds enjoyment with communal use, and generally improves my focus. Is my life diminished? I don't think so, but I would probably be a different person if I had never started using. For better or worse, I don't know, but I'm happy as I am.

I studied botany and one of my favourite things is walking in nature. I still notice the wonderful diversity and new things always catch my eye, and I don't think that cannabis has dulled my perception or memory. But a long walk while stoned can fly by, with a lot of useful (and amusing) thought along the way.

 

[bhasma]

Research shows that tolerance is related to CB1 receptor availability, but it is also related to the amount of THC in your system. Receptor availability rises and THC levels fall over the first few days, but each of these recoveries has a long tail (up to 28 days or perhaps longer) and together they influence one's tolerance. And subjectively experienced tolerance and experimentally observed tolerance are probably quite different, adding more uncertainty. But theoretically it seems that someone who uses only every third day should not develop a tolerance. This is not a regimen I have ever consciously followed, and I wonder if anyone here has experience of such a pattern, and whether or not their tolerance increased. Microdose or macrodose doesn't matter, since most of the rising and falling levels happens in the first few days no matter how much you used, but importantly two days (or more) apart.

 

[darbarikanada]

I wonder if anyone here has experience of such a pattern, and whether or not their tolerance increased

theoretically it seems that someone who uses only every third day should not develop a tolerance

I get high (almost always v. baked) 1-2x/week, always vape ~10 hits, have maintained this pattern for years, never had tolerance issues.

I actually recently cut back from 12 hits per session - I was getting too high.

 

[bhasma]

So it seems that cannabis can safely be used twice a week without any fear of increasing tolerance or inducing withdrawal symptoms. And more frequent (especially daily) exposure is likely to raise both tolerance and the risk of discomfort on cessation. Medical use will probably have these side effects. And weekend recreational users can enjoy their weekends without any worries. The risks associated with using cannabis are relatively minor, and the changes happen gradually (imperceptibly) over time, but without self-regulation it is likely that a daily user will slowly increase their usage, tolerance and withdrawal symptoms over the months and the years. A gradual reduction from heavy use should eliminate any side effects, and a T-break of two to five days should largely restore normal tolerance (perhaps up to one month for complete restoration). Every decision we make has risks and benefits, and everyone makes their own choices.

 

[TheFatBastard]

Thanks everybody for the inputs!

I’ve started to use Cannabis almost daily, because now I can.

Why? I like it and I’ve noticed it changes my perspective of life for good. I’m naturally anxious, overthinker, some say “high achiever” and sometimes life is hard to bear with being that way.

I usually vape once a day, and try to leave one day or two from time to time, so I don’t vape through the whole week. Ocasionally, I vape around 12 in the morning, while relaxing and meditating at the beach, and maybe in the evening to hear some music, play guitar or watch a movie.

My sessions are around 0.2g / 0.3g. I may use concentrates once a month, or once in three months…as a different experience.

Since I’ve started to vape almost daily (I used to do it only on weekends) I’m trying to find out all the pros and cons, and, so far, the pros are way many than the cons. But I still keep on looking if it is safe and really improves my life. Guess I still have that stigma about the “drug”, and feel somehow guilty of using that often.

 

[Curious Gorilla]

I still keep on looking if it is safe and really improves my life. Guess I still have that stigma about the “drug”, and feel somehow guilty of using that often.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing something that You enjoy and has health benefits. Even if its only recreational or because you just like the taste.
And even if thats the case It Still Has Health Benefits.
If it has no impact on You or Your life in a negative fashion, there is nothing wrong with it.
If it does impact you in a negative way, You should not feel guilty about it. Just try and reduce/stop any harm.
If other people struggle with it and want to judge You, they first need to stop judging people. Then need to stop struggling with Your Choice.
Not aiming this at You TheFatBastard, We probably all know all this, just felt it needed to be said.

Edit . Dont really need to say this tho'........

 

[XpeeN]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing something that You enjoy and has health benefits. Even if its only recreational or because you just like the taste.
And even if thats the case It Still Has Health Benefits.
If it has no impact on You or Your life in a negative fashion, there is nothing wrong with it.
If it does impact you in a negative way, You should not feel guilty about it. Just try and reduce/stop any harm.
If other people struggle with it and want to judge You, they first need to stop judging people. Then need to stop struggling with Your Choice.
Not aiming this at You TheFatBastard, We probably all know all this, just felt it needed to be said.

Edit . Dont really need to say this tho'........

Ad much as I want to agree with you, the one thing that bothers me is that there might be a biological effect from everyday use that we aren't educated enough to know. for example (it's really not my field so take what I say with a grain of salt), if everyday use for a period of time means the ECS will produce less endocannabinoids overall, to balance the overload presented by THC, it might affect people when they're sober, which can lead to substance abuse.

I wish we can verify that a 0.2-0.3g a day or so won't affect you these ways at all, but as for now (from my knowledge) we can't.

Btw, forgive me if I'm repeating things, as I read the thread a few days ago but forgot what I've read XD

 

[Curious Gorilla]

I believe We suffer more harm from benzene and other exaust and petrol fumes while putting a full tank of Fuel in our cars at the petrol station.
Then there is the drive to and from the petrol station.
Course, You may be a sensible person and walk everywhere or cycle. Next to roads full of traffic producing exhaust.
I suspect the equivalent amount of car exhaust to vaping any equivalent amount of cannabis would do you far more harm.
Without the health benefits to weigh out what little harm cannabis may do at equivalent amounts to the car exhaust we breath every day.
If i get To It, i will try and look at the figures and work it out. If i can.
My Current Toit is a Round One.

I am NOT advocating anyone should Vape Cannabis Every Day, unless they understand it, are carefull, are able to stop when needed, and it has no detrimental effect on them or those around them. And they like it.

 

[TheFatBastard]

I am NOT advocating anyone should Vape Cannabis Every Day, unless they understand it, are carefull, are able to stop when needed, and it has no detrimental effect on them or those around them. And they like it.

I can totally stop vaping whenever I want and don’t miss it at all.

Sometimes I’m doing something funny or working on something and I don’t even remember about it.

But when I have spare time, I LOVE to vape and play guitar, sing, listen to music. Mostly when I’m bored. I know I could do all that without vaping, but vaping makes it even funnier.