Do FC Members (Other Than Staff) Really Have Any Input?

[Crohnie]

I'm a bit reluctant to start this thread, but I believe it's necessary. I realize that this is a private forum owned by VTAC and that the rules are made and enforced by him and other staff members. IMO, however, sometimes it seems that regular FC members have little or no input about things on FC.

At the risk of breaking a rule, let me provide an example. Someone started a thread concerning the new rule about no bumps allowed in the classifieds. As soon as some small disagreement with staff occurs, threads like these (giving opinions) are killed. Once again, I realize that Staff has every right to do this, but it just doesn't seem right to stifle member input about something that affects them.

I've expressed these concerns before to staff members, but nothing was done. It is my belief that disagreement, questioning, and MEMBER INPUT are necessary to a healthy forum. I don't expect this thread to last long since I have a feeling it will quickly be locked. Get your opinions in fast!

 

[mvapes]

I personally have over the last 3 years fell in love with FC because at one point felt it was truly about the people. Unlike the crowd at other forums with similar interests to ours that seem to be crowded with an element of members that were different than the people I've met here. IMO over the last 6 months or so things have changed.

It seems to me that there are a few different manufacturers among the forum in which if members voice concerns or opinions suffer backlash from staff.

Personally it's quite apparent to not only myself but many of the people here that I consider friends as well.

I actually thought recently about something and for myself I would have no issue paying a fee for membership to offset the manufacturers ability as well as help the forum gain income as I understand that it's a difficult decision for staff to actively demand certain requirements from developers when I assume there is a monthly fee for them to advertise on FC.

Chronie, I commend your courage for openly asking for opinions without fear of being banned for opening up.

My message is not to hurt or bash any of the staff here but to help raise awareness that membership may start dwindling.

I myself barely post anymore and now most of the friends I have from here have moved our conversations outside of the forum.

I hope coming from a veteran member like myself it will bring attention to get this forum the way it was.

About the members.

 

[lwien]

It is my belief that disagreement, questioning, and MEMBER INPUT are necessary to a healthy forum.

It's such a fine line simply because disagreement, questioning and member input into site management could, in fact, cause a forum to become very "unheathly".

IMO over the last 6 months or so things have changed.

It seems to me that there are a few different manufacturers among the forum in which if members voice concerns or opinions suffer backlash from staff.

This isn't a new concern though, m. Your issue as stated above was mentioned way back when Tom from PD was active here.

Perhaps, there could be a special thread that could only be accessed by long time FC veterans to discuss issues such as these, eh, so that these types of discussions can be confined yet provide some good input to site management.

 

[mvapes]

I agree, but how healthy is when members feel that they can't speak up?

Is a one sided forum better?

Again, I am not blaming staff as much as I am asking them to realize how it may look to us.

I mean if members start to bolt why would manufacturers want to be here?

 

[lwien]

Did some editing to my post above.

 

[Crohnie]

I must agree with MVAPES. I've also noticed that when certain vape manufacturers are criticized (fairly IMO) I've seen staff members come down hard.

 

[lwien]

I must agree with MVAPES. I've also noticed that when certain vape manufacturers are criticized (fairly IMO) I've seen staff members come down hard.

Ummm........The only time that I've seen staff come down hard is when the exact same complaint about a specific manufacturer keeps getting repeated and I've seen this happen to a variety of manufacturers, even those who are not held in very high regard here. Hell, I got my wrists slapped when I was ragging on the NO2 repeatedly.

 

[pakalolo]

@Crohnie, I fail to see the point in leaving a thread that a) keeps picking at an issue on which we have set a policy (after a lot of consideration I might add) and b) simply repeats itself. Would you put up with that from your kid or your employee? What purpose would it serve?

Instead of disallowing any discussion at all along these lines—as almost all forums do—we've given you a Community subforum and allow you to open threads like this. Somehow, this still isn't enough member input for you so we're supposed to leave threads like the bumping thread run on and on. Really?

@mvapes, I'm not sure what you're implying. If you think that a forum with no manufacturer participation would be better—and that people would pay for such a thing, seriously?—then I strongly disagree with you.

If you think we favour certain manufacturers then I take strong exception to that. We get accused of it every time someone has a beef with a manufacturer and takes it too far. We have a rule about this. I've posted about it many times and so have other mods, and I'm sure you know what it is. What would you have us do? If we didn't step in and stop people from posting the same complaint repeatedly, hijacking threads with complaints, and trying to pressure manufacturers with this behaviour, do you think the forum would be better? If you think we do this only for certain manufacturers, your impression is simply wrong.

I also want to point out that we also have to take flak from manufacturers about allowing too much bashing. It cuts both ways, and we're in the middle.

 

[Crohnie]

Paka, I was giving an EXAMPLE of the GENERAL sort of thing I'm talking about. It seems like ANY dissent or disagreement is not allowed. Staff members won't even allow a thread to DISCUSS constructive criticism of the site.

Do you see, finally? Even my posting of this thread discussing constructive criticism is dismissed by you. Is it really healthy not to allow criticism AT ALL?

I expect you'll be locking this thread very shortly.

 

[thesoloman]

I cant help but look at this from a different point, The mod's have a hard job, think of how difficult it would be to constantly be a neutral governing body.
Im saying thanks Mod's for running FC!
I feel that this site is an incredible heaping pile of knowledge. Sorting the bullshit from the information is a hard job, one that ya'll are doing quite well. just my

 

[lwien]

I think one thing does need be said, especially to those long time veterans here.

FC has changed. It is not the same as it was 4 or 5 years ago, but that's the natural progression of things. We don't just have a "core" membership anymore. FC has gotten a LOT bigger and any site, organization, etc that grows has to change with typically more controls put into affect in order to allow it to thrive.

What's interesting though, is the parallel to what has happened here in the US since 911. It's that fine line between safety and freedom. How much freedom are we willing to sacrifice in order to maintain our security and safety. How much freedom are wel willing to give up here at FC in order for the site to continue to thrive. I'll tell ya this. I hope to God that FC NEVER falls into the complacency and idiocy that is prevalent over at GC and I think it is that that the mods here are trying very hard from ever allowing to happen.

Do the mods here ever step over the line and exert too much control? Sure they do. They're far from perfect, but for the most part, taken as whole, there is very little, if anything, that I would like to see changed.

 

[Crohnie]

Tell me then, lwien. Would you be willing to sacrifice your right to criticize the government in order to maintain our security and safety? My point is that there's a limit. Any forum that doesn't allow even constructive criticism IMO, is eventually doomed to failure.

 

[lwien]

Tell me then, lwien. Would you be willing to sacrifice your right to criticize the government in order to maintain our security and safety?

No, but even though I drew a parallel, there is one major difference. This, or for that matter, any privately owned site, is not a republic or a democracy. The fact is, is that we are guests in someone else's house and the owner of that house lays down the house rules. We have a choice. Either follow those rules or find another house. No house is perfect, but in regards to vaporizers, I have found no house better.

 

[pakalolo]

Paka, I was giving an EXAMPLE of the GENERAL sort of thing I'm talking about. It seems like ANY dissent or disagreement is not allowed. Staff members won't even allow a thread to DISCUSS constructive criticism of the site.

Do you see, finally? Even my posting of this thread discussing constructive criticism is dismissed by you. Is it really healthy not to allow criticism AT ALL?

I expect you'll be locking this thread very shortly.

It seems to me that you've made your mind up in face of the evidence, and there's no discussion to be had.

We don't allow discussion of moderator decisions in the threads. Any online forum that does degenerates into flame wars and bickering, and I speak from 30 years of experience. We gave you Community Discussion to allow input and if you think it's all been positive then you simply haven't read the threads. We left the bumping thread up long after it got repetitive. This thread exists, doesn't it? It wouldn't on any other forum I use. You think we don't allow criticism? Try opening a thread like this on any other forum, let us know how it goes.

Frankly, your dis-cognizance baffles me.

 

[Crohnie]

I apologize. I didn't realize that constructive criticism is not allowed on FC. I would humbly request that this rule be spelled out so that in the future I and other FC members won't violate it.

I realize that it's against the rules to publicly discuss staff decisions. That's NOT what I was talking about. I was talking about criticism of the site in general. It was necessary for me to give an example.

 

[stickstones]

crohnie...where do you expect this thread to go? It's most likely going to end up in a bash session or an argument.

My beef with member beefs is that no one ever sends me a pm about these kinds of concerns so we can talk about it openly and in private. It always ends up with a thread in public, which almost always ends up with some troll coming in that we don't know and stirring the pot. I'm just not gonna play that game...it's not fun and it's counter-productive. I wouldn't call out the mayor on the city hall steps if I wanted to see something changed. I would get a much better response by approaching him in private, which can be done on this forum.

I like lwien's idea about an area for established members to post about these types of things. I think we even discussed it at one point amongst mods, but it didn't go anywhere. But I think I would like that because it would give members in good standing like yourself a place to voice concerns where we can objectively hear it instead of it getting mixed in with the bs and trolling.

In the end, the mods are just like everyone else here...individuals who love to vape and talk about it. Mods are nothing more than long standing members who are here a lot, listened to, and have earned the respect of the current staff. The direction of fc is a fluid thing that we discuss constantly, and we would like more input from members. Sometimes we ask someone to be a mod because they are likeminded and here a lot. Sometimes we pull members into a discussion we are having because they have expertise in an area. But it's a pretty thankless job with no pay and a lot of work.

Our shared love for the herb brings with it a good amount of juvenile immaturity from faceless avatars on the internet and, based on perusing the other 'pot' forums on the net, I think good rules followed strictly helps to weed out a lot of this immaturity that would surely drive most of us away. It's pretty hard having an open public thread on a product with the manufacturer present and trying to promote open dialogue while keeping trolls out. Are we going to blow it sometimes and step on the wrong foot? I would bet on it. But I still don't have anyone pulling me aside to talk about any problems they see.

 

[pakalolo]

I apologize. I didn't realize that constructive criticism is not allowed on FC. I would humbly request that this rule be spelled out so that in the future I and other FC members won't violate it.

Okay, I'm calling total bullshit on that response.

 

[Crohnie]

Okay, I'm calling total bullshit on that response.

Wow, really. Isn't that sort of thing against the rules? I didn't know insulting other members was kosher.

 

[mvapes]

Solo, i and chronie agree with you and neither of us are bashing mods. I too agree that they have a hard job but this thread wasn't created to thank mods for their existence.

Frankly, I understand what your saying Pak. I never said there should not be vendors allowed on the thread. I also agree that there needs to be some governing to maintain ethics among members. What I'm saying is that it should be a level playing field.

Pak, I have an enormous amount of respect for you but let's be honest, is every thread being treated equally? Not even close, if you question anything in certain areas you chance having your comment erased or even getting slammed.

All I'm saying is that if we paid a fee to help offset the income to FC to help vtac that may allow him to ease up. I don't like losing client's in my business but once I feel my people are being mistreated or taken advantage of its my job to protect those very people that make me a success.

I think what membership is trying to get across here is we rely on you guy's to protect us, not to attack us for asking questions that we deserve to ask.

I do understand that there will always be the assholes who want to flame but in no way should others who do things the right way should suffer the same consequences.

Pak, before anything you were one of us. I remember those days, that's when I frequented the vape threads - now a days things are different, I'm no longer intrigued by manufacturers as I spend way to much time differentiating when they're being honest or not.

It's just a shame that when we call them out on it we suffer. When in essence maybe they should be the ones confronted - not protected when some of the questions asked are completely deflected. They make the decision on a business venture, if they can't answer the same questions over and over again that's their problem.

Maybe there should be a way for members to vote when a vendor is doing us wrong.

It can even be a score similar to the classifieds reviews.

Almost like an approval rating. Think about it, if you were on ebay and found something you really wanted but the seller had a poor score would you buy it? Or would you say it must be the members on ebay cause their probably full of shit?

 

[stickstones]

now you're the one being silly, crohnie. You are no longer discussing anything here...you're just taking pop shots.

mvapes...the threads already serve this purpose, I think, as people get to read owner experiences. The voting/scoring thing seems like a good idea that would help the casual reader get to the bottom if it quickly, but I have no idea if the software allows it.

And I can tell you I treat every thread I am in the same, but I can't read 'em all.

 

[Crohnie]

now you're the one being silly, crohnie. You are no longer discussing anything here...you're just taking pop shots.

mvapes...the threads already serve this purpose, I think, as people get to read owner experiences. The voting/scoring thing seems like a good idea that would help the casual reader get to the bottom if it quickly, but I have no idea if the software allows it.

So it's ok for staff to insult members? Are they not bound by the same rules?

 

[lwien]

It's just a shame that when we call them (Mfgs) out on it we suffer. When in essence maybe they should be the ones confronted - not protected when some of the questions asked are completely deflected. They make the decision on a business venture, if they can't answer the same questions over and over again that's their problem.

Maybe there should be a way for members to vote when a vendor is doing us wrong.

M, I know you know the latitude that was given to me when I have bashed manufactures and I probably have done more of that more than just about anyone else here. Man, I've taken DV, VaporIcer, Vapir, etc to the woodshed and beat the fucking crap out of them.

 

[stickstones]

So it's ok for staff to insult members? Are they not bound by the same rules?

Calling a post bullshit is not the same as calling a person bullshit.

 

[pakalolo]

So it's ok for staff to insult members? Are they not bound by the same rules?

I let my temper get the better of my judgment, but I stand behind the characterization. You won't like this, but I'll remind you that no, we aren't bound by the same rules. Rules are applied at moderator discretion. If the other mods think I'm over the line then I'll get called out on it.

 

[stickstones]

I myself barely post anymore

I'm laughing at that...this muthafucka's here all day every day!