Discussion on using a single-strain in the creation of both "day" and "night" cannabis oil

[OldOyler]

Hi everyone on FC!

Being my first attempt at a new thread posting, please forgive any clumsiness. :-)

I simply wanted to try and give something back to FC, since I have taken ALOT.

I wanted to try and start a specific discussion about using a single strain of cannabis to create both a "daytime" and "nighttime" version. It isn't really *quite* how I wanted to put it, but I figured that title would be easily recognizable and understandable.

If someone has access to a dispensary (which I do not), the idea of procuring two oils - one "daytime" and one "nighttime" (which is fair enough) seems to also usually mean and that they would probably be from two different strains if the plant source is being considered (or is an option to the purchaser), or that it is simply a "high-THC" or "high-CBD" oil, respectively. Again, absolutely important! I won't bore you with the specifics of why I personally chose the following mentality for choosing a single strain - plus the various reasons will be scattered throughout (I hope). But what I am hoping is to hear all the things that the rest of the FC community does (or does not do) to this end using a single source strain.

A quick note about what I was shooting for my oil to do - I wanted an oil that "did it all" - daytime or nightime, pain or depression/PTSD, plus I wanted a single oil that I could use sublingually, vape in my Kangertech (mixed with EJMix), and coulse as a topical for cuts, burns, etc. (I've never seen anything like the topical healing properties of cannabis - wow!).

As usual, I roiled around for a long time before actually making a decision.

Finally, I decided that since I could control things from seed to oil (growing myself), a single high-THC strain with what *I* considered at least a respectable CBD level was the way to go.

My strain choice was based on the thought process that since CBDs are pretty much "set" in the genetics, I would instead attempt to finesse the THC-to-CBN degradation in order to make the resulting oil more "daytime" or "nighttime". Since I could control turning THC into CBNs but NOT vice versa, I wanted the starting THC level to be as high as possible.

So...

1. I chose a strain that was the high-end of low-CBD (1%) and high-THC (24%).
2. Used a growth technique called "manifolding" or "mainlining" to create long colas for the best flower (I manifold out to 16 colas, since my particular 400W HPS setup can really only penetrate down to about 12-14" of cola depth) when growing
3. Harvested the plant at its highest THC level (per trichome cloudiness through a jeweler's loupe)
4. Did a 1 week dry after trimming (individual cola branches upside down in 20% Rh dark environment) followed by a 2 week cure only after removing the bud from the branches (would have gone 2 more weeks of curing back in the combustion days)
5. Froze dem buds
6. Used an ethanol extraction (in my case, Everclear 191) to create the "mash" for the resulting cannabis oil and strained with grade 90 cheesecloth (I'm the only user of my product, so I don't filter any further)
7. Kept first-wash extraction mash and second-wash mash completely separate (something the skunk pharm folks do sometimes)
8. Used 180-degree (Fahrenheit) heat in a boiling water bath (aka - double boiler) to evaporate the Everclear from each set of oil

And I did all the previous steps this "way" to get to try and gain some control over the character of the resulting oils in the last step:

9. Used 250-degree (Fahrenheit) heat in a boiling oil bath (I use a fondue pot that has a pretty decent temperature control, and is known *not* to have "dead bands" around the 250-degree Fahrenheit range) to finish decarb on each set of oil and to control the amount of THC to CBN conversion. (Source for my reasoning: http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/). I will watch the bubble production drop off, pull out 1/2 the oil and consider it the "daytime" version, then let the rest go until bubble production is pretty much completely gone and consider that the "night" version

(One other note for continuity of the post - used first-wash oil batch for sublingual, second-wash for oil/EJMix vape juice and topical products)

I then can even create various "versions" of the resulting oils by doing some mixing in a simple warm, low-heat environment with some various other ingredients - I make skumk pharm's "Holy Anointing Oil - Topical", for instance, with alot more coconut oil ratio, or I might use the original recipe recipe for "Holy Anointing Oil" for the times when I want a little cinnamon in my life, or I might choose to simply mix the resulting oil with EJMix and vapbong it from my Kangertech. (Recipes are from skunk pharm, link is http://skunkpharmresearch.com/holy-anointing-oil-and-holy-shit/)

And of course this can all be tweaked even a bit more based on how long I had let the decarb process go on. As mentioned in the skunk pharm link about decarb above (here3 again: http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/), after 70% of the decarb process has occurred with cannabis oil in a 250 degree (Fahrenheit) oil bath, *THC-to-CBN degredation will begin to sharply outpace THCA-to-THC conversion*. Skunk pharm used this point to make a more daytime or nighttime version of their oil.

I use some 1/2oz (15ml) amber glass containers with the built-in glass droppers to store all resulting mixtures, and then put little stickers on them using my own weird system of understanding, like "HOA - DAY" on one (pulled out of oil batch after solvent purge but before decarb spike reached, then added the cinnamon and myrrh flavors per skunk pharm recipe), or maybe "RSO - Night" on another (let it go long in decarb, no flavoring), or "HOA Topical" (full long decarb, only used 1/2 the amount of cinnamon called for, but increased the coconut oil a bit so it was smoother for me)

Well...that's it.

And yes - I know this is all very general knowledge, and I haven't stated anything particularly amazing.

I really just wanted to put forth the idea that it can be easy to "chunk up" how we analyze our oil-making. We discuss extraction methods in isolation, what kind of source material to get somewhere else, then go talk about decarb techniques somewhere else, etc. and THEN we each individually kind of "put the pieces together" and try to apply them.

But I think, for those who have some degree of control over the source material (its harvest and curing in particular, whether by growing it themselves, or knowing the grower, or having a dispensary that has control over the grow, etc.), and over the creation of the cannabis oil, there is something to be said for looking at oil creation as something that has a LOT of points of control throughout the process that can create a more versatile end-product without having to have a huge number of strains to increase certain effects or to ameliorate others. That is how a few places I found are looking at it now - Elemental Wellness talks about it in their literature (http://www.elementalwellnesscenter.com/UnderstandingCannabis.pdf), but I still see even these ideas being used as assuming different strains are needed for day versus night, or for different treatment effects, etc.

So, I am hoping to expand my understanding of how the real experts approcach it (uh, that's *you* folks, FC!).

Now, if I can finally get the guts to copy-and-paste this, and post it...

I only ask - please be gentle with me, experts. :-)

Peace and lots of good things to you all!

 

[mayan]

Thanks for posting this! This is something I'm thinking about as well. Very helpful and A LOT to digest and consider.

 

[Snappo]

Hi everyone on FC!

Being my first attempt at a new thread posting, please forgive any clumsiness. :-)

I simply wanted to try and give something back to FC, since I have taken ALOT.

I wanted to try and start a specific discussion about using a single strain of cannabis to create both a "daytime" and "nighttime" version. It isn't really *quite* how I wanted to put it, but I figured that title would be easily recognizable and understandable.

If someone has access to a dispensary (which I do not), the idea of procuring two oils - one "daytime" and one "nighttime" (which is fair enough) seems to also usually mean and that they would probably be from two different strains if the plant source is being considered (or is an option to the purchaser), or that it is simply a "high-THC" or "high-CBD" oil, respectively. Again, absolutely important! I won't bore you with the specifics of why I personally chose the following mentality for choosing a single strain - plus the various reasons will be scattered throughout (I hope). But what I am hoping is to hear all the things that the rest of the FC community does (or does not do) to this end using a single source strain.

A quick note about what I was shooting for my oil to do - I wanted an oil that "did it all" - daytime or nightime, pain or depression/PTSD, plus I wanted a single oil that I could use sublingually, vape in my Kangertech (mixed with EJMix), and coulse as a topical for cuts, burns, etc. (I've never seen anything like the topical healing properties of cannabis - wow!).

As usual, I roiled around for a long time before actually making a decision.

Finally, I decided that since I could control things from seed to oil (growing myself), a single high-THC strain with what *I* considered at least a respectable CBD level was the way to go.

My strain choice was based on the thought process that since CBDs are pretty much "set" in the genetics, I would instead attempt to finesse the THC-to-CBN degradation in order to make the resulting oil more "daytime" or "nighttime". Since I could control turning THC into CBNs but NOT vice versa, I wanted the starting THC level to be as high as possible.

So...

1. I chose a strain that was the high-end of low-CBD (1%) and high-THC (24%).
2. Used a growth technique called "manifolding" or "mainlining" to create long colas for the best flower (I manifold out to 16 colas, since my particular 400W HPS setup can really only penetrate down to about 12-14" of cola depth) when growing
3. Harvested the plant at its highest THC level (per trichome cloudiness through a jeweler's loupe)
4. Did a 1 week dry after trimming (individual cola branches upside down in 20% Rh dark environment) followed by a 2 week cure only after removing the bud from the branches (would have gone 2 more weeks of curing back in the combustion days)
5. Froze dem buds
6. Used an ethanol extraction (in my case, Everclear 191) to create the "mash" for the resulting cannabis oil and strained with grade 90 cheesecloth (I'm the only user of my product, so I don't filter any further)
7. Kept first-wash extraction mash and second-wash mash completely separate (something the skunk pharm folks do sometimes)
8. Used 180-degree (Fahrenheit) heat in a boiling water bath (aka - double boiler) to evaporate the Everclear from each set of oil

And I did all the previous steps this "way" to get to try and gain some control over the character of the resulting oils in the last step:

9. Used 250-degree (Fahrenheit) heat in a boiling oil bath (I use a fondue pot that has a pretty decent temperature control, and is known *not* to have "dead bands" around the 250-degree Fahrenheit range) to finish decarb on each set of oil and to control the amount of THC to CBN conversion. (Source for my reasoning: http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/). I will watch the bubble production drop off, pull out 1/2 the oil and consider it the "daytime" version, then let the rest go until bubble production is pretty much completely gone and consider that the "night" version

(One other note for continuity of the post - used first-wash oil batch for sublingual, second-wash for oil/EJMix vape juice and topical products)

I then can even create various "versions" of the resulting oils by doing some mixing in a simple warm, low-heat environment with some various other ingredients - I make skumk pharm's "Holy Anointing Oil - Topical", for instance, with alot more coconut oil ratio, or I might use the original recipe recipe for "Holy Anointing Oil" for the times when I want a little cinnamon in my life, or I might choose to simply mix the resulting oil with EJMix and vapbong it from my Kangertech. (Recipes are from skunk pharm, link is http://skunkpharmresearch.com/holy-anointing-oil-and-holy-shit/)

And of course this can all be tweaked even a bit more based on how long I had let the decarb process go on. As mentioned in the skunk pharm link about decarb above (here3 again: http://skunkpharmresearch.com/decarboxylation/), after 70% of the decarb process has occurred with cannabis oil in a 250 degree (Fahrenheit) oil bath, *THC-to-CBN degredation will begin to sharply outpace THCA-to-THC conversion*. Skunk pharm used this point to make a more daytime or nighttime version of their oil.

I use some 1/2oz (15ml) amber glass containers with the built-in glass droppers to store all resulting mixtures, and then put little stickers on them using my own weird system of understanding, like "HOA - DAY" on one (pulled out of oil batch after solvent purge but before decarb spike reached, then added the cinnamon and myrrh flavors per skunk pharm recipe), or maybe "RSO - Night" on another (let it go long in decarb, no flavoring), or "HOA Topical" (full long decarb, only used 1/2 the amount of cinnamon called for, but increased the coconut oil a bit so it was smoother for me)

Well...that's it.

And yes - I know this is all very general knowledge, and I haven't stated anything particularly amazing.

I really just wanted to put forth the idea that it can be easy to "chunk up" how we analyze our oil-making. We discuss extraction methods in isolation, what kind of source material to get somewhere else, then go talk about decarb techniques somewhere else, etc. and THEN we each individually kind of "put the pieces together" and try to apply them.

But I think, for those who have some degree of control over the source material (its harvest and curing in particular, whether by growing it themselves, or knowing the grower, or having a dispensary that has control over the grow, etc.), and over the creation of the cannabis oil, there is something to be said for looking at oil creation as something that has a LOT of points of control throughout the process that can create a more versatile end-product without having to have a huge number of strains to increase certain effects or to ameliorate others. That is how a few places I found are looking at it now - Elemental Wellness talks about it in their literature (http://www.elementalwellnesscenter.com/UnderstandingCannabis.pdf), but I still see even these ideas being used as assuming different strains are needed for day versus night, or for different treatment effects, etc.

So, I am hoping to expand my understanding of how the real experts approcach it (uh, that's *you* folks, FC!).

Now, if I can finally get the guts to copy-and-paste this, and post it...

I only ask - please be gentle with me, experts. :-)

Peace and lots of good things to you all!

Excellent post! This definitely needs to be tested! Thank you!

 

[OldOyler]

Excellent post! This definitely needs to be tested! Thank you!

Snappo,

I would be *extremely* humbled to have someone else try this. Means a lot to me that you would say that.

As for me, my results were exactly what I expected based on those ideas. The oil that was pulled at the peak of decarb bubbles was uplifting and energizing, while the oil I let run until the decarb (CO2) bubbles had come to a crawl has a more relaxing effect. Allows for inner exploration if I want, or deep sleep! (6 hours now - that's a big deal for me!)

And of course, things *never* happen like that for me (theory correctly equates to my observed results), so I would *love* to know if the results just "accidentally" matched the theory, or vice versa, as disappointing as that might be. (I would simply turn around and look at the next thing to try - @Grow Goddess has developed some potent oil she has termed "ND Sap", since it decarbs naturally, and I am running that experiment now as well)

Anyway, two drops of the HOA under my tongue, and an hour later I am whuuu-acked. Good 6 hours total. My vape version (1:1 unflavored oil to EJMix) works awesome, too!

And one other thing I was afraid to throw in the mix - I am also deeply interested in the idea of synergistic effects between the cannabinoids and the terpene profile based on target therapeutic effects (one of the reasons skunk pharm says in one of their replies they posted on their site to someone's question that they chose the 240-degree (F) temp, since many terps aren't destroyed at that temperature but decarb could still occur).

But one thing at a time, sorry!

:-)

- OldOyler

 

[Grow Goddess]

At 240F some of the terpenes do not evaporate, but there is something that must be considered. Did the terpenes oxidize? In other words, were they chemically changed to a low to no value medicinal terpene. Any additional heat causes damage. I am 100% confident. I have compared many different temperatures.

I can't speak it scientifically, but I can from experience. The less damaged the terpenes are and the more terpenes are present, the longer the buzz. This would be as long as the buds/flowers had the terpenes to begin with.

 

[nintey2]

I have come to believe after much research that much of the couchlock/ sedating effect of marijuana is due to CBN, and oxidative product of THC. It makes sense if you think about it. Edibles often have a much heavier and sedating high, why is this? Because you must decarboxylate THC-A to THC and in the process some is converted to CBN. If you don't believe me just look at some of the analysis online of edibles that have been lab tested, almost all of them have a CBN component and it is usually around 50% of the total cannabinoid content.

There is also other terpenes that play a role in the sedation, I am actually in the process of making a ejuice for dissolving bho made form a mixture a terpenes that will complement the high.

@Grow Goddess, some of the terpenes do in fact oxidize and will convert to other compounds (the oxides), but since we do not have enough information about any of these things it is impossible to say what has more or less medicinal value.

One more anecdotal story to compliment my point. I used to make alot of homemade pressed kief and at some point I discovered if I pressed it with a hot iron to harden and melt it together, I would end up with a product that was much more sedating, it would completely change the high from a heady and clear high to a much more muddled and sedating buzz, to the point where no matter the strain I used, if I pressed it with the hot iron than that particular hash would induce a nap almost 100% of the time.

Just something to consider.

 

[Enchantre]

This is good thinking. Also, good writing! I'm currently growing my first crop, and plan to turn part of it oil. I'll try this, too!

 

[OldOyler]

At 240F some of the terpenes do not evaporate, but there is something that must be considered. Did the terpenes oxidize? In other words, were they chemically changed to a low to no value medicinal terpene. Any additional heat causes damage. I am 100% confident. I have compared many different temperatures.

I can't speak it scientifically, but I can from experience. The less damaged the terpenes are and the more terpenes are present, the longer the buzz. This would be as long as the buds/flowers had the terpenes to begin with.

GG,

Yes, this has had me perplexed as well. (Hence my excitement over ND Sap!!!).

Winemakers make the following suggestion when I did some looking - adding sulfites and/or ascorbic acid to avoid oxidation. But that might be at room temps only? Heck, could be completely irrelevant. I don't know. :-)

I also sent an email to the skunk pharm folks asking them whether they had "the rest of" that chart. It shows some other temps over time as well, but it stops after xx hours to the right. But the original chart was from the Russians from 20 years ago or something, so that may be "it" for that chart.

One last note, I noticed that Rick Simpson has put a few updates to his website that touch on some of this. He has been thinking about terps as well!

The link is: http://phoenixtears.ca/producing-the-highest-quality-oils-possible/

(Starting at like the second paragraph he discusses trying to rig things up to catch terps in the RSO creation process.)

Thanks as always GG!

 

[nintey2]

It would also be possible to make some sort of reflux condenser for those wishing to decarb bot not lose any terps. It is important to note though the terpenes may themselves undergo reactions under heat and change conformation into another compound. for those interested exactly what that is here is a link to a photo of one http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11206

Basically it is something that heats the bottom of the flask and than cools the neck of the bottle by running water through an outer chamber that surrounds the glass so as the more volatile compounds evaporate they are cooled back down and return from the gas phase to the liquid phase. This would be the best way to decarb w/o losing any of the terpenes, but it would require a small investment into some glassware(probably less than 50$)

Ask if you have anymore questions on the matter

 

[Grow Goddess]

GG,

Yes, this has had me perplexed as well. (Hence my excitement over ND Sap!!!).

Winemakers make the following suggestion when I did some looking - adding sulfites and/or ascorbic acid to avoid oxidation. But that might be at room temps only? Heck, could be completely irrelevant. I don't know. :-)

I also sent an email to the skunk pharm folks asking them whether they had "the rest of" that chart. It shows some other temps over time as well, but it stops after xx hours to the right. But the original chart was from the Russians from 20 years ago or something, so that may be "it" for that chart.

One last note, I noticed that Rick Simpson has put a few updates to his website that touch on some of this. He has been thinking about terps as well!

The link is: http://phoenixtears.ca/producing-the-highest-quality-oils-possible/

(Starting at like the second paragraph he discusses trying to rig things up to catch terps in the RSO creation process.)

Thanks as always GG!

Kind of recently I spoke with Gray Wolf (Skumkpharms) about my findings with the naturally decarbed oil being different, an improvement, and containing all of the terpenes without having to buy any special equipment.

I have been sending my information to Rick Simpson for quite some time now too. I guess he is just now starting to take it seriously.

The only way RSO is going to contain the terpenes of the naturally decarbed oil, and even then may not be as good is, to pre-steam distill the buds and collect the terpenes with additional equipment. Then you can add the terpenes back into the oil.

I had e-mailed Rick and others about the naturally decarbed oil and never received any replies back on that, but did get replies on other topics.

The terpenes from the naturally decarbed oil truly make it a wonder oil. I sprained and scraped my thumb the other day. I put about 1/2 drop of the ND Sap on the scraped area and the pain just disappeared within 5 seconds. It was amazing. The pain is still gone, just a touch stiff is all. It should be black and blue and it is not. The naturally decarbed oil is just amazing, I can't brag it up enough. Same goes for the toothache, it is amazing how it took the pain right away. I give the credit to the oil being naturally decarbed and containing essential terpenes where RSO does not have those medicinal properties.

 

[Grow Goddess]

It would also be possible to make some sort of reflux condenser for those wishing to decarb bot not lose any terps. It is important to note though the terpenes may themselves undergo reactions under heat and change conformation into another compound. for those interested exactly what that is here is a link to a photo of one http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=11206

Basically it is something that heats the bottom of the flask and than cools the neck of the bottle by running water through an outer chamber that surrounds the glass so as the more volatile compounds evaporate they are cooled back down and return from the gas phase to the liquid phase. This would be the best way to decarb w/o losing any of the terpenes, but it would require a small investment into some glassware(probably less than 50$)

Ask if you have anymore questions on the matter

It can naturally decarb on it's own with out a heated process. It just needs to be in a liquid state, like honey or thinner and stored in a sealed vial or jar with a back up plate or cup in case it leaks due to the pressure from the decarbing. 100 to 120 days it should be totally naturally decarbed.

The terpenes still being in the product is amazing.

I had been making RSO for 4 years. Now I have been making naturally decarbed oil for about a year now. There is just no comparing the two, a night and day difference.

 

[Grow Goddess]

GG,

Yes, this has had me perplexed as well. (Hence my excitement over ND Sap!!!).

Winemakers make the following suggestion when I did some looking - adding sulfites and/or ascorbic acid to avoid oxidation. But that might be at room temps only? Heck, could be completely irrelevant. I don't know. :-)

I also sent an email to the skunk pharm folks asking them whether they had "the rest of" that chart. It shows some other temps over time as well, but it stops after xx hours to the right. But the original chart was from the Russians from 20 years ago or something, so that may be "it" for that chart.

One last note, I noticed that Rick Simpson has put a few updates to his website that touch on some of this. He has been thinking about terps as well!

The link is: http://phoenixtears.ca/producing-the-highest-quality-oils-possible/

(Starting at like the second paragraph he discusses trying to rig things up to catch terps in the RSO creation process.)

Thanks as always GG!

I just went to the link you provided and did not come across anything regarding terpenes. I tried helping him understand a few things. If you read the link he states he does not know why the product is more potent and higher in THC after it has been vaporized. He says we need to learn more about the decarbing. I think I do fully understand. I have been trying to tell him, but he will not listen.

Rick is probably still using naphtha. His vaporized method would be more noticeable if using naphtha for several reasons. I saw a chart showing all different solvents and what the results were on CBD, TCH, THCa. It showed on the chart that using naphtha it would produce the lowest THC levels and the highest THCa (undecarbed THC) levels. This was most drastic when using naphtha as a solvent. His oil is not fully decarbing. If he kept his oil in more of a liquid state and allowed it to sit for 2 to 8 weeks after making it, then allow it to air dry for the final product, his oil would be fully decarbed and there would be no need for the additional vaporization BS. The reason why I say it is BS is because reheating the product is destroying all of the medicinal properties. I hate to burst his bubble, but I am 100% confident. If you read his article, he says he is not.

I have experimented with the oil using the exact same strains, grown indoors to perfection, for 5 years. Yes, I am sure Rick has increased the THC percentage in his oil at the cost of destroying the CBDs and destroying 100% of the terpenes including losing them. THC is not the only miracle product in cannabis. Percentage numbers don't mean squat to me. If my naturally decarbed sap was at 55% THC because it is loaded with terpenes and CBDs, (just an example) my 55% THC would blow the doors off his 95% because mine contains the terpenes. I think the terpenes may be more valuable than the THC when we are speaking medicinally. Terpenes can drastically increase the THC and increase the way the body is effected by it by more than 100%. Mixing the terpenes can increase the potency of the terpenes. There are terpenes in cannabis that can pass through the blood brain barrier that assist the THC.

Here are a couple of pictures of some of the best RSO I have ever made. It is half way naturally decarbed. It was treated extremely gentle. It was only about 60% decarbed when the product was removed from the heat. 2 to 6 weeks later it became 40% more decarbed. These oil pictures don't even come close to the naturally decarbed sap that contains the terpenes that has never been heated. I don't care if the naturally decarbed sap comes out brown. One of my strains produces a brown oil when using grain alcohol. That batch of the darker oil was by far superior to the oil in the pictures below. That is not just in potency. It is for all kinds of medicinal uses that RSO was lacking.

One rice grain size dose keeps me buzzed for 24 hours. I was not able to reach that 24 hour point until I started to halfway naturally decarb it. From the fully heat decarbed RSO the longest buzz I could get was 12 hours. Now that I am using no heat and naturally decarb my oil, that little rice grain dose provides me a buzz for about 48 hours sometimes more. That is 4 times stronger than my heat decarbed oil. I am positive my percentage of THC is low. What Rick needs to do is get a book about essential oils, like Modern Essentials Sixth Edition. Maybe then he will realize what terpenes can do and how fragile they are. Medicinally speaking it opens up a more wide spectrum of cures. I have seen it myself. Who knows what can be done with all of the other plant terpenes. Heat only causes damage. It causes everything to oxidize or evaporate out. I wish I could share with him a sample of the ND Sap. Too bad the laws have to stop us from helping each other.

ND Sap, besides being more medicinal, potent, and longer lasting, it is safer to produce, more medicinal, and less equipment required to make it. 3 times in a row I have seen ND Sap do what RSO could not. Terpenes are medicine. I believe with the cannabis plant and terpenes from other plants, all illnesses could be successfully treated.
Here is a picture of ND Sap.

I am still eating off of this, it is from months ago. It is so potent I can't take it every day, I have to take it every other day. Due to the terpenes and no heat, my oil consumption has been reduced by 50% or more.

sorry for rambling

 

[OldOyler]

GG,

Quick note - I have the worse luck on my computer when I "quote", so I am responding to your last post without including it, sorry. It makes my browser just freeze up. Sigh.

Anyway, I am really sorry I didn't check that link again before I posted it! I have it printed out on my desk, and he is discussing terps and thinking that "someone might be able to figure out how to catch them". It was from December, so I have learned a lesson that should benefit all of FC regarding any future links I post (since I will check them right before I post them!).

I found it interesting though - but that's because I think ND Sap will end up *explaining* some things about *how* the various current methods work that weren't known before, and same goes for anything new. Besides, they could be on to something cool *too*, although I shuddered when I read the description, and prayed for the poor oil. Like, alot...

But I think it shows that there is a universal "gut-feeling" that there is something *more* to be found out, even with the current methods. It has kept the "amateur scientist" in me going for quite a while.

But nothing tweaked that amateur scientist in me like your discovery of ND Sap. Because I had followed your stuff for a long time - both your dealing with patients stuff, and your own personal observations of various effects, which I found to be spot on - well, I had (and have) no doubt as to the validity of what you have found. (On a side note, if anything I posted here or anywhere else gave you a different impression, that wasn't my intention. :-))

Because ND Sap made me consider that something *other* than high heat could cause decarb. I mean, I have read plenty of articles (too many) covering the degredation of cannabis and cannabinoids, but it was either "fast" (as in high-heat decarb) or "slow" (degredation while still in plant state). But slow...OIL decarb?

My first thought was "Well, of course!".

When I had finished my first grow, I had been too impatient to not try to get some of it dry NOW NOW NOW, and of course trying to dry too fast/too hot was inferior and spotty as opposed to just "giving time time".

Where I kept getting stuck was on what *happens* during this "time" in the oil. We obviously *are* technically applying heat even at room temperature (the ND Sap-in-waiting I have is, in effect, sitting in a 40-degree Fahrenheit "air-bath" I suppose, since it is 72-degrees in the room, i.e. - 40 degrees above freezing, although I guess calling it a 72-degree "air bath" makes more sense", but hopefully you'll get my drift).

I have personally been on a theory-hunt about an ethanol/water exothermic reaction occuring in the oil - although this is only supposed to happen at 176-degrees Fahrenheit at avg sea-level "1 atmosphere" of pressure. But then of course the pressure could be getting raised somewhat by the reaction, or even completely differently, or a temperature transfer that occurs but is done before it would ever be able to be measured, or a previously unknown reaction with the bond to be decarbed while using ethanol, or it could even be doing something while still in mash state, etc.

And I was just using "ethanol" generally, like for theory, you know? Like I know that exothermic reaction occurs something like 10-degrees (F) cooler for ISO than for Everclear 191, for instance.

There I went digressing, sorry GG.

What I was trying to get across is that my money is on ND Sap. And I want to make sure we can show everyone *why*, because I think that unlocking the "why" to ND Sap is going to explain some things currently being attributed to heat in the other high-heat processes!

Like, when I looked at the skunk pharm 250-degree (F) oil bath decarb they illustrated on their site with pictures to drive home the time v. temp chart, I noticed something - the caption on the first picture said something like "ignore these first BIG bubbles, that's the residual solvent...". So the residual solvent (in the case they had used ISO) could be doing *something* to contribute to the process.

Or, closer to home, when I switched from taking an hour to cook off the Everclear 191 in my original-RSO recipe to four hours, it completely changed the nature of the oil for me (at least subjectively, but I am pretty sure objectively as well), and that was what got me "ready" to try some other things, like freezing the mixture AFTER I made the mash but BEFORE heating, even though both had just come out of the freezer in order to make the mash in the first place. I noticed a difference, but can't now enumerate to you what it was between the two that caught my attention.

I am committed to trying to find out what occurs *outside* of what we consider normal. So...

I have decided to take 16 zips of flower from my upcoming White wid harvest and split it into 4 equal parts - so I will use 4 zips in each of four test batches. (I really only had 3 test batches in mind, but I like the idea of using 500ml of Everclear 191 per each of the 4 zips, that has seemed to be a good ratio for me, so I simply threw in one of my "I wonder about...but not enough to actually use flower on it" ideas)

And as always, comments and suggestions are cool as anything! :-)

So, here is what I have in mind:

I will dry the bud slowly over 7 days, then jar cure it for 14-21 days more (I can usually tell when it's Ready Freddy, but at least they will all be at the same drying point for each batch)

I will freeze the Everclear 191 and bud overnight, then make a mash from 2,000ml EC191 and 16 zips dried/cured flower

I will pour the mash into 4 equal portions into 4 stainless steel containers (not how I want to do all of them, but for scientific method...sigh)

Then, for each test batch:

Batch #1 "ND Sap": Air-evaporation of EC191 only, kept in dark at 70-75 degrees Fahrenheit for 90 days (GG, you'll have to give me guidance here if that's sounds right-ish)

Batch #2 "Equatorial Shmectitorial": Air-evaporation of EC191 only, then kept in dark at an ambient temperature of 100-105 degrees Fahrenheit (What I considered a high heat that might actually occur within nature, i.e. - a "naturally occurring high temperature")

Batch #3 "250-degree Oil Bath": Air-evaporation of EC191 until oil is almost purged, then placed in a 250-degree saffron oil bath until, using the method of watching for the sudden drop-off of CO2 bubbles as described by the skunk pharm, heating the oil until it appears to have reached "peak decarb" state

Batch #4 "Surface of the Freaking Sun": I will follow Rick Simpson's described method by transferring the oil from the stainless steel container into a borosilicate beaker, placing that beaker in a 400-degree Saffron Oil bath, and then rigging up a classic distallation setup (I'll post those final specs after I get feedback, etc - Amazon has something I can use with my fondue pot that's like a "student distillation kit" or something) to catch...whatever it is that's coming out the other end!

And then, I have a friend at a lab. I will give him a little of each, maybe a gram of oil. Or less if he can run spectography or whatever on less amount. I don't think our current methods of measuring finished oil product are particularly mature, but that is SO just my opinion). And I don't think that THC, CBD, CBN, etc. levels alone tell the whole picture of course. But I expect ND Sap to be the highest "proper" ratio among the samples by a long shot.

But more importantly, I think the proof will already be in the pudding.

I think people will flock. You may want to get yourself a few extra email accounts.

:-)

(Ha of course I am joking. I think even small fame or notoriety is poison. Just trying to illustrate a point that I think it you won't be having to "try" to get folks to listen.

:-)

Peace and healing to us all!

 

[Grow Goddess]

@OldOyler
Thank you.
Looking forward to hearing of your results. It is kind of exciting actually.

For starters, doing that large of amount, play it safe and go 120 days for the ND Sap. I have not made it enough times yet to have that process nailed down yet as to the exact number of days.

You will see it release the CO2 bubbles when you open the lid! It will foam over like a shaken soda. This may happen more than once if you choose to burp the vial or container. Something I also want to compare, burping the vials during the process vs not burping.

I have already done the test comparing RSO to ND Sap and it is a night and day difference. Keep it in a liquid state and it will for sure decarb properly. You can always allow it to "air dry" after the decarbing process.

I am still trying to get the time to do my comparison of 192 grain alcohol and 200 proof KleenXtract. It is on my to do list. I have all of the material, just need the time to do it.

I am putting a lot of my focus towards the terpenes. I will never use heat again. That I am sure of.

 

[OldOyler]

Hi everyone,

I am studiously (for a cannahead) working on the science-ey parts of this discussion. I am not a stupid man, but I will certainly require assistance and input. (If not for FC.com and you folks, I would never have looked at ANY of this in the first place, so a big heart-felt thanks to everyone. No sappy smoke blowing intended - just an honest "Wow, you all rule!".)

Anyway, I wanted to give a quick and hopefully immediately useful update.

I had missed the fantastic tweak that had already occurred in one of the previous posts because I was looking at a different angle.

Here's what I found: The simple addition of coconut oil, cinnamon bark oil, cinnamon leaf oil, and myrrh made the resulting product very different in its subjective "buzz" (the recipe for Holy Anointing Oil from skunk pharm). The recipe has been much used and much promoted, but I wanted to give some specifics given our topic here.

IMO, the coconut oil *greatly* increased the bioavailability of the cannabinoids when I used it sublingually. The buzz begins to come on in a matter of minutes (used to take at least 30), and is much more intense for the next 6 hours (I take it every 8 hours). It is much more uplifting - my crippled behind is up running around the house in projects for hours and hours. It IS almost a bit TOO intense. Ha. Who am I kidding...

I am really, really happy with the result! And I didn't have to DO anything different TO the oil except mix it in a warm (not boiling) water bath. I am sure a boiling water bath is fine, I just decided to see how simple I could do things.

And what was SO funny for me in all this was that I was *actually* trying to solve a *different* problem with that recipe, which was solved as well!

RSO is so thick (the version I make, to be very fair, is homemade-ey) that it was hard to work with. For a long time I used a stainless steel container to store the oil, and just used a toothpick or the like to get my dose out. In the end, a 1ml syringe worked the best, but even then if a single bit touches *anything* else, the grease-like consistency means it would get on my fingers, a counter-top, etc. (I had a permanent stainless steel "reclaim" container ready to be Everclear-ed on everything at all times!). It also could take a long time to melt under my tongue, so that a single involuntary swallow while waiting (usually 10 minutes) could mean less time the oil had spent sublingually, more went down to be processed via ingestion - a different buzz (liver processed vs blood stream).

I had already been storing the oil 4 grams to a 1/2oz (15ml) amber glass bottle with built-in glass dropper in order to mix 1:1 with EJMix for vaporizing. I thought it would be cool to be able to use it right from the glass containers for everything (since my sublingual version was in the 1ml syringes).

The simple addition of the ingredients mentioned means that I now can. (A quick note - I obviously NOT mixing any oil until *after* decarb, so if making ND Sap I don't mix until *after* the long, natural decarb process. Sorry to be a worry-wart - didn't want anyone to follow this and ruin their ND Sap. It may be possible that we will find out if it effects the result or not, but I'M certainly not trying that additional step out - waiting 120 days and finding out I ruined a batch will have to be SO a side project at a later time!).

Sigh, I did it again. Mr. Digression...

Now, I should mention that I used a slightly different ratio - I mixed 4 grams of oil with 4 grams of coconut oil, 2 drops from each of the cinnamon oils right from the essential oil containers they are in, and 1 drop myrrh from its essential oil container. I pre-melted the coconut oil in a little stainless steel measuring cup (that was light enough to measure and tare on a 100g scale since the coconut oil was alot heavier than my eyeballs would have guesstimated) in a hot water bath (as hot as my tap, not boiled), added the 3 different essential oil drops into *that*, and used a cool little stainless steel funnel (that I found on Amazon that is meant to fill essential oil bottles) and poured the coconut oil mixture into the amber bottle that was holding the 4g RSO. Awesome, since the oil is always the hardest thing to have to "move" for me. No moving the oil!

I sat the amber bottle in the tap-hot water for about 5 minutes, both stirring with the built-in glass dropper and drawing it up/squeezing it back out of the dropper for mixing. It mixed very well, and I mix a bit like that each time I use it.

My RSO dose was "rice grain sized piece under the tongue". I now drop out 2 drops under my tongue, 1 on each side so I can see the dark color in the mirror, for my dose.

The bite from the cinnamon and myrrh (especially the latter) let me know RIGHT where the oil is under my tongue, as well as when it has begun to hit my throat. It seems to "tack" extremely well under the tongue now - really the bottom of the mouth, but you know what I mean - so that I can tell exactly where it is. And it seems to be all done melting in about 5 minutes - excellent. I used to wait 10, and still swallowed 1/2 the oil. Which is what some people DO want with RSO. So I am only speaking for myself, and to our specific topic of using tweaks so that we can start with a single oil and get multiple types of effects depending upon what we "do").

The action on my pain is MUCH faster. I would say that 2 drops under my tongue is now 3 times as effective on my peripheral neuropathy (two limbs, left arm and left leg, perm nerve damage, for the medically inclined), though somewhat shorter in duration of "full effects" (pain control does begin to drop off somewhat at about 6 hours, but I simply add vaping and I'm "good").

I would be extremely interested in hearing what others find if you do this. I also wondered if the "sum is greater than its parts", since cinnamon oils and myrrh have fantastic properties of their own.

But no offense essential oil folks - not trying it without the canna-can!

Sorry to be so long as always.

Much peace and healing to you all.

OldOyler Edit: On a side note, does anyone (GG?) have an opinion on the post-harvest processing of the cannabis I will be using for our tests? As in drying, curing, etc. for the best starting material for our little endeavor? I outlined before what I was thinking, but since we *will* have control over drying curing, I wanted to see if anyone had something "outside" of the usual slow dry over 7 days, jar cure for 14 more, etc. type of "classic" post-harvest methods. Thanks as always!

 

[Grow Goddess]

Kudos to you OldOyler! I am really enjoying your enthusiasm! It is very inspiring!!

For drying buds intended for an extraction. I have always just allowed them to dry a little extra. More dry than I would like for smoking. Usually 5 to 7 days depending on the humidity. Then jar them up until ready to extract.

I have extracted from fresh dry buds and old dry buds. As long as they were treated and stored well, the extractions came out about the same.

I suppose if the buds naturally decarbed on their own, like jarred for 4 months or more. I am guessing that the oil may already be decarbed and ready to use. I have not proven that theory yet though. I could, just haven't had the time. I do have some buds that have naturally decarbed. Hmmmm, maybe on my next extraction test.

I have nothing against getting the buds dried then doing the extraction right then. That may even be best. I think the medicinal properties degrade more quickly in bud form vs. oil form. Just an opinion.