DBV/SSV - Silicosis Risks With Ceramic Heating Rods?

[Jman5280]

When I look at my DBV ceramic rod, when using a flash light, I can see little black lines that run up the rod, almost like cracks, but I can't tell if the surface is actually cracked because it feels smooth. When the heat cover is removed, these lines burn brighter than the rest of the rod.

Additionally, there are little white flakes on the rod. The white flakes/dust wipe off, but some are hard and almost bonded to the rod. I am very concerned at why/how these flakes are forming.

After asking the internet, I came back with a lot of results regarding ceramic rods and how they can form dust that is harmful when inhaled. Silicosis is very serious and I would hate to think that vaping to be healthy is actually maybe causing more problems. The dust from silica won't show symptoms for 10-20+ years, and these vapes haven't been long enough to know the dangers for sure.

Anyone else see these flakes on their rod? Should I/we be concenerned?

I know that 7th Floor uses top of the line rods, but these changes in the ceramic rod need to be addressed.

I posted this question in DBV but quickly realized it should have it's own thread. It isn't just a DBV concern.

I really hope that this thread doesn't got shutdown, bc I have noticed that any threads that attempt to discuss risks or negative impacts with vaping usually get shut down. Why? I don't know, I think it's ridiculous since we are all here to make better decisions for our health.

This one is a perfect example of the exact topic I am wanting to revisit, but this thread was closed:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/b...er-of-ceramic-heating-elements-in-vapes.8573/

 

[pakalolo]

If you read carefully you will notice that the problems with inhaled ceramic dust come from prolonged exposure at levels much higher than you would get from your DBV. Having said that, if it scares you then get a different device.

The thread you referred to was closed down because it turned into a flame fest, not because it discussed health issues. We have a whole sub-forum (Medical Discusssion) devoted to health issues, including risks from vaping. There are currenly 18 pages of topics. Additionally, there are several threads devoted to this sort of issue in Vaporization Discussion. Threads in Ask FC are regularly closed and moved to ABV when we feel the question has been answered. Note that they don't disappear, they just get closed and moved. Your comment implies that we actively try to suppress discussion of negative aspects of vapourizing. This is both untrue and unfair.

 

[Jman5280]

If you read carefully you will notice that the problems with inhaled ceramic dust come from prolonged exposure at levels much higher than you would get from your DBV. Having said that, if it scares you then get a different device.

The thread you referred to was closed down because it turned into a flame fest, not because it discussed health issues. We have a whole sub-forum (Medical Discusssion) devoted to health issues, including risks from vaping. There are currenly 18 pages of topics. Additionally, there are several threads devoted to this sort of issue in Vaporization Discussion. Threads in Ask FC are regularly closed and moved to ABV when we feel the question has been answered. Note that they don't disappear, they just get closed and moved. Your comment implies that we actively try to suppress discussion of negative aspects of vapourizing. This is both untrue and unfair.

I apologize, I didn't mean to insult the staff and the decisions you guys make. I didn't know that this thread should be in a different area, I would rather this discussion be moved than closed. Once discussions get closed, I can't help but feel suppressed.

Moving on to the topic, I understand that prolong exposure really increases the risks, especially with professions that are around silica dust. But would prolonged use of these types of vapes enough for that risk?

I also want to know if these flakes are normal, do other users of 7th floor see them?

I would like to understand why the flakes form and why they bond to the rod. Additionally, what are the dark lines that look like cracks?

It could be that their is some scientific reason that I don't even know, I don't want to assume that this is something it's not. That's why I am asking the experts on this forum!

 

[pakalolo]

I apologize, I didn't mean to insult the staff and the decisions you guys make. I didn't know that this thread should be in a different area, I would rather this discussion be moved than closed. Once discussions get closed, I can't help but feel suppressed.

Moving on to the topic, I understand that prolong exposure really increases the risks, especially with professions that are around silica dust. But would prolonged use of these types of vapes enough for that risk?

I also want to know if these flakes are normal, do other users of 7th floor see them?

I would like to understand why the flakes form and why they bond to the rod. Additionally, what are the dark lines that look like cracks?

It could be that their is some scientific reason that I don't even know, I don't want to assume that this is something it's not. That's why I am asking the experts on this forum!

Thanks, I'm glad we cleared that up. Your thread is best left in Ask FC right now, since it is a question and you will get more readers here. We can decide where to put it when the time comes.

When I looked into this I reached the conclusion that any increase in risk with ceramic heaters was not enough for me to care about. Everyone has a different limit for risk, so you might conclude otherwise.

 

[Athanor]

I don't know the answers, but particle size is really important. If over 10micron, I don't think it's a health concern, as the particles are too big to get into the lungs.

 

[Jman5280]

I don't know the answers, but particle size is really important. If over 10micron, I don't think it's a health concern, as the particles are too big to get into the lungs.

Too big to get into lungs? I didn't know there was a size limit. I also don't know how to reference 10micron... I'm assuming if I can see some of these flakes, that there must also be smaller pieces that I can't see.

 

[Jman5280]

If you think about this for a minute any ceramic dust particles must some how make it through a loaded bowl of herb before it reaches your lungs. I think there is slim to no chance of this happening and definitely nothing to be concerned about.

I have realized that, but still, if pieces of ceramic are breaking off of the rod during the heating process, I am hoping to learn more. If this was the case, this would mean that you can inhale these, and I wouldn't want to find out that 10 years from now using my vape actually hurt me more than if I kept combusting. Pieces of ceramic or silica are not going to dissolve, and from what I read can create serious lung problems.

Also besides the risks, I need to know if this is a defective rod, or if this is normal and nothing to worry about.

 

[Jman5280]

It's not about whether or not it's going to get through a loaded bowl.

It's about what is happening to the rod, and what risks are presented. In this case, there are black lines and flakes that are unexplainable. Is this the heating and cooling of the rod? Did the rod crack? Are these flakes results of the black lines? I'm not sure, that's why this thread exists.

These are all probably better questions for people who have used, and examined their own similar devices. Regardless, my goal is to discuss and understand what is happening with the rod.

 

[lwien]

Would running your DBV through water alleviate your concerns?

 

[KeroZen]

What about ceramic bowls then? Just asking...

 

[Jman5280]

Would running your DBV through water alleviate your concerns?

I do run it through water. And that's not the point.

The point of this thread is to discuss what is happening to the ceramic, let's not turn this into a trollfest.

 

[smokum]

I don't believe it's a matter of 'trolling', but rather replies based on your thread title is all (I can see the misunderstanding as such setting up for the responses your getting). Wonder if a mod would be kind enough to reword your thread title to avoid this going on further for you ? can't hurt report your 1st post and ask right ?

 

[Jman5280]

There are wires running the length of the ceramic rod, most likely nichrome (NiCr), that glow red hot when current is applied. Those are the bright lines you are seeing.

Because the element is exposed to air and particles at high temperatures the ceramic forms a passivation layer of silicon dioxide over time, protecting it from further oxidation. I don't know if the DBV heating element ever reaches temperatures for a passivation layer to occur but it is an explanation of the white dust you are seeing.

Silicon dioxide can cause silicosis with prolonged exposure. Personally I am not concerned that there is any real risk as for any silicone dioxide to reach your lungs it needs to make it past the loaded bowl of herb. Any amount that would reach your lungs would be so minuscule as to not be a concern to me personally.

Filtering your vapor through water is the key if this concerns or bothers you.

Thanks, that was a very helpful response.

I never knew that wires ran inside the rod, to me the black lines looked like surface cracks because they were inconsistent with each other.

I now need to look up what silicon dioxide is, and how that might be resulting in this.

I would love to hear from other users of 7th floor, and see of they have witnessed anything similar on their unit.

Thanks!

 

[Jman5280]

sand — In this case it is formed through oxidation (the addition of oxygen to a compound) caused by the heating of the ceramic.

So oxygen passing through the rod causes oxidation, which can result in a dust/sand. I wonder if this is with every rod, or if my DBV is defective. It wouldn't seem that people would be inhaling off a ceramic rod, knowing that this happens.

Also, if it's sand, would living on the beach be more risky?

 

[Jman5280]

Thanks for explaining that, I don't want to annoy the thread by asking questions I probably should have learned in science class back in the day.

I am worried enough that I have stopped using the DBV, but it was my favorite device.

I am also worried because some of these flakes,
are bonded to the rod and they are hard to get off, if not impossible. Would this be a result of the same oxidation process? Or is this the ceramic rod actually changing texture as it is heated up?

 

[Jman5280]

Maybe the ceramic rod always had a hardened flake like texture and you just noticed it through examination? I would contact 7th floor regarding this and share what you learn with the group.

There is a chance for that to be the case, other DBV/SSV owners may be able to confirm this if their units show similar findings.

I tried contacting 7th floor but no luck. I really want to use my vape without worries...

 

[Jman5280]

I am an SSV owner and I personally think you are actually creating things to worry about. IMHO there is not a single thing to be worried about using 7th floor products and I know this without any doubt.

But if you're scared it is good you quit your DBV.

Knowing that, does your SSV share similar findings?

 

[lwien]

I do run it through water. And that's not the point.

The point of this thread is to discuss what is happening to the ceramic, let's not turn this into a trollfest.

My question to you was an attempt to alleviate your concerns with ceramic dust entering your lungs. You did say that you're concerned about that, didn't you?

A trollfest? What the >>?!?

 

[Jman5280]

No, I don't have dust, cracks, or defects of any kind that is of concern to me. If I had cracks or chips I would contact 7th floor and give them a bit of time to respond. See what they have to say.

Can you post some images of this damage your DBV has so we can see it here?

Not chips, but if you shine a light and look closely, do you see any flakes/bumps on the texture?

I can't get a photo with good enough resolution...

 

[Scott A]

My 3 year old DBV has no signs of any cracking, chipping, or flaking of the ceramic. Some times a tiny particle of weed would touch the heating element and leave a little ash on it that kind of looks like flake. I used to think it might of been something to do with the element until I saw it happening by chance one day.

edit- my rod is smooth too (pun intended)

 

[Athanor]

The silicon dioxide is going to form it its surface, faster at higher temps. Pretty much any material "rusts" (oxidises). Some like iron oxidize to flakey things, aluminium is a thin layer that protects the aluminium underneath, stainless steel has other metals added in that oxidize faster than the iron, forming a layer on the surface. So that part is completely normal and to be expected.
IDK how small of particles could be released from the surface, if any. Sorry I can't speak to that part.
10micron is tiny enough you'd need magnification to see it. The smallest a person can see is 40micron, and that's a much younger person than me. All relevant EPA and OSHA regulations for particulate matter (whether silica or other) only care about <10micron, and they divide <2.5micron and <10micron into separate allowable limits.
I'm looking more toward doing concentrates and an rda with ReadyXWick in a diamondback coil in the future, and while it can fray some at the ends when you're using it, it's reputed to not release small enough bits to be an issue.

 

[Jman5280]

My 3 year old DBV has no signs of any cracking, chipping, or flaking of the ceramic. Some times a tiny particle of weed would touch the heating element and leave a little ash on it that kind of looks like flake. I used to think it might of been something to do with the element until I saw it happening by chance one day.

edit- my rod is smooth too (pun intended)

Do you see any lines in your rod? Not cracks but just discolored lines?

On page 7 of the DBV thread the discussion talks about these lines...

 

[pakalolo]

I do run it through water. And that's not the point.

The point of this thread is to discuss what is happening to the ceramic, let's not turn this into a trollfest.

@lwien's question was in no way trolling. Please don't imply that another member is a troll. If you think someone is trolling, report it and do not respond. Calling someone else a troll is a violation of our Be Nice rule and could earn you a warning point.

@steama has done an excellent job of explaining this ceramic flaking to you. This issue has come up here (and elsewhere) many times before. If there were better information on the topic then someone would have uncovered it by now. What we do know is that no one has shown a firm reason that there is a risk, nor has anyone been found who can link ceramic vapourizer heaters to a risk. Everything is arising out of suspicion that there might possibly be a risk. Again, if you think there's a risk, get another vapourizer.

You are trying to get absolute proof that something isn't a risk and refusing to accept anything that diminishes that idea. No one can prove that ceramic heaters in vapourizers pose no health risks whatsoever. On the other hand, I am willing to bet my house that nobody on FC knows any more about the risk than you've already discovered, and that almost all of us think that if there is any risk at all it is too small to worry about. That's intentionally a pretty big if, by the way.

 

[Scott A]

Do you see any lines in your rod? Not cracks but just discolored lines?

On page 7 of the DBV thread the discussion talks about these lines...

Nope, just checked. It is on right now though so I will take a look next time its off too.

 

[Jman5280]

Nope, just checked. It is on right now though so I will take a look next time its off too.

Thanks, please do

Here are some photos:

You can see the white texture. At first I thought it all wiped off, but now I realize that it bonds to the rod. However it still flakes off...

And you can sort of see the black lines. Towards he bass of the rod I see what looks like scratches from the heater cover, but maybe they are stained from material spilling into the rod?