Connoisseur Concentrates

[Bad Ocelot]

I strictly use cc's burners when using cc's dilutants as they have given me the most consistent results (no leaking here). Unfortunately, as with all these tanks and cartridges, there is ALWAYS a certain % failure rate/defect.

Give them a call, they are always so helpful.

Cheers!

Thanks! Will do, they were very helpful when I emailed them before I placed my first order. I know there's always going to be a failure %age, but thought it odd I had 2 out of the 3 I received fail, and I haven't used the 3rd yet. It could be user error, but I've been vaping for a few years & generally pretty handy with this type of paraphernalia, but who knows...

Try sucking on it with the air hole covered, that should help get it into the wick.

Ah, will try that with my one remaining burner. Thanks!

Hello, this is Drew from Connoisseur Concentrates here- You guys have some great questions and I want to be here to answer them personally, so if there is anything we can assist with, fire away!

Good to see you guys here! Love The Solution, however I've had issues with a couple burners. Not sure if you saw my previous post but the first one I used leaked out the LED end, and with the second one it didn't leak but the top of the wick is visibly dry even though I only got a dozen or so hits after loading it with 0.5mL. The fluid seems to have coagulated towards the front of the burner as it's hard to get it to pull or fire at all. Any tips? Also I'm quite interested in the 510s, any word on when those will be available again?

I'm excited to try the Skywalker OG & Sour Diesel flavors whenever I place my next order. Anyone tried those yet?

 

[connoisseurcon]

@connoisseurcon Is there a discount on larger orders of your "burner"? Canadian Dollar sucks at the moment..............

Yes and no, for the time being, on bulk orders of the Solution, orders of 100 grams or more, to help compensate for the dollar difference we are increasing the amount of Solution you receive when ordering in Canada, maybe a 20% increase in liquid, its a case by case upgrade. For the burners, we don't discount the burners or offer free burners, but we may be able to offer some free Solution to help offset costs-

Good to see you guys here! Love The Solution, however I've had issues with a couple burners. Not sure if you saw my previous post but the first one I used leaked out the LED end, and with the second one it didn't leak but the top of the wick is visibly dry even though I only got a dozen or so hits after loading it with 0.5mL. The fluid seems to have coagulated towards the front of the burner as it's hard to get it to pull or fire at all. Any tips? Also I'm quite interested in the 510s, any word on when those will be available again?

I'm excited to try the Skywalker OG & Sour Diesel flavors whenever I place my next order. Anyone tried those yet?

I have worked pretty hard to build the burners as a good pen, we wanted to offer an inexpensive pen so that people without pens could have a quick way to try our product, but as with anything inexpensive, you can have issues. We sell so many thousands of them a month your bound to get failures, I just hate it when it happens. I would love to include a more expensive pen then a disposable, but we wanted to keep the price down, $40 bucks for a sample pack is pretty good in my opinion, and we make almost nothing on them. I would be more than happy for a recommendation on a cheap alternative to them we can give out with our packs. Its a trade off, better pens= higher sample pack cost.... We really wanted to focus on the Solution, and not hardware. Sometime I debate if it would be better to offer a cheaper pack with no burners, but how many people would then have to go out and buy a pen at the store for at least $20 bucks....then they might get a really crappy one and think its our product that's the issue, it a tough call for us.

Having said that, we don't have many failures. Some, not many. I wish none, I hate to hear when concentrates get lost and we do our best to make up for it whenever we hear it happens. Usually, when you get liquid down at the LED level it was because liquid made its way down the center white tube, which goes past the wick and into the battery area. It seems pretty hard to get past the factory seal that holds the liquid in the wick. I never like to put blame on the customer, its a bad way to do business, so we always assume the seal could have leaked. Usually liquid just accidently got inserted in the tube instead of the cloth wick area. We trust that you would just let us know if liquid got down the center tube, and if not, we assume the seals leaked due to a physical, not chemical compatibility malfunction. No problem

From what you have mentioned, I may guess that the extract was not diluted enough, and was a little thick. Hard to tell, each extract react differently due to wax content.

I would be happy to offer to replace the entire kit to help offset your loss, a couple new samples for your time, and maybe you could throw up some pics in the process so we could nail it down. We sell out of the 510s so fast I never had really had time to put them on the site- but we have them. .3 and 1 ml tanks, or third and one gram as we call them. A new batch is shipping from China Mon or Tuesday, and we are also getting some wick based 510s (like the burners) to try out and offer. Ill update the site this time for availability, and you can always call us and we will make it happen.

 

[waxdab23]

I too have been quite pleased with my sample pack of The Solution.

So simple to mix. Smells and tastes great, especially when compared with similar products currently on the market.

I used the included burners so far on my attempts and with mixed results (couple worked great, one not so much). I think my next run I will try the Joyetech Cubis tank. I use one for nic juice and it has a really neat top fill, no leak design that I think might just work with the thc juices.

@connoisseurcon What can you tell us about the ingredients without sharing any trade secrets? I really would like to put my mind at ease and have some confidence that all ingredients contained in The Solution are safe for vaping, and if not, what the potentially unsafe ingredients are.

 

[woolspinner]

@connoisseurcon What can you tell us about the ingredients without sharing any trade secrets? I really would like to put my mind at ease and have some confidence that all ingredients contained in The Solution are safe for vaping, and if not, what the potentially unsafe ingredients are.

Ditto.

PG/PEG/VG have been tested and people know the safety/risks of them and I just don't know if the CC ingredients are safe for vaping. (Note: tests showing safety for oral ingestion is not proof it is safe for vaping)

I don't want to know trade secrets, but if people are putting this in their bodies, it would be nice to know base ingredients. Not the percentages or recipes, just the individual ingredients.

 

[connoisseurcon]

@connoisseurcon What can you tell us about the ingredients without sharing any trade secrets? I really would like to put my mind at ease and have some confidence that all ingredients contained in The Solution are safe for vaping, and if not, what the potentially unsafe ingredients are.

Of course. Its a little complicated due to the amount of different ingredients we use, but I will go over it.

To start, we only source organic terpenes found in the extracts of the cannabis plant. If its a terpene not found in cannabis, we don't use it. By organic, we mean extracted from a plant in nature, and not synthetically created in a lab. We have that option, they are cheaper, and there are some terpenes we would really like to use but they are only available in a synthetic version, so we have to pass. It has been something the customers have been very clear about in what they look for in a product, and we agree.

Our terpenes are food grade or above and come from a very large and reputable company that has been around for a while, servicing laboratories and companies around the world. We have requested and keep on file the msds and certifications of every ingredient we source from them. Our terpenes are certified kosher, non gmo, FDA GRAS, and not tested on animals.

We have been assured that the terpenes are pure by the company we source from, but we have also heard reports of small amounts of ethanol in testing from a customer. I have every terpene in a lab being individually tested for ethanol as we speak. Having said that, we have seen where labs testing our terpenes have had the GCMS misinterpret the terpenes as other components. We have had that happen in a couple labs across the country. It really proves that the lab testing is not as exact as they want you to believe. We have had two companies so far have to completely redo how they test because the tests were showing impossible things, this we proved by performing control tests. I would like to expand, but we are still in the process and do want to misinform. But to be clear, it was absolutely proven the GCMS of two very reputable companies were putting out very false results. Not on purpose of course, but they are focused on a couple forms of testing, for potency and residuals, and never really thought beyond that.
Long story short, I want to make sure the same thing is not happening on the ethanol, that would be an even easier error than what we had found. So we are looking into it and it takes time.

We create blends from a variety of terpenes after performing a lab analysis of the strain, and recreate it. This comprises our Organic line of products. As to the extraction method of the individual terpenes, they are considered a trade secret by our supplier and they will not disclose the methods.

For our all natural line we add pure essential oils, such a lemon, lime, tangerine and so on to our terpene blends. They too are certified organic, in the sense they are not created in a lab, and are extracted from plants.

Our Flavored line is composed of Organic terpenes, combined with artificial flavoring. We work closely with a very reputable, large company that produces many lines of vapor pen fluids. You would know them. I work with the owner, as well as the staff quite often. From them, we source our flavoring we add for blends such as Bubblegum, Green Apple and others not found in nature. They have been in existence for a long time, are well regarded, and are very aware of all the restricted components such as diacetyl, acetoin, sugars or artificial sweeteners, and do not use them, and have provided documentation to us regarding such. We also do not use anything buttery flavored or even close.

Now the flavorings in the Flavored Line does contain Propylene Glycol. It is an emulsifying ingredient use by the flavoring manufacturer. We have requested the same flavoring without it, and they are working on it. Its going to take time, and it might not work. It is a small percentage of the flavoring. We have been very clear about PG being in the flavored line on the site, enough to where anything that does contain PG has to be in the Flavored line, a product line created just for products that contain small amounts of PG.


It is also possible, and probable, that the flavoring used in the Flavored line contains small amounts of alcohol. Its pretty much a given that the flavored line is going to contain items not organic in nature, so we recommend that if your going for testing and organics, stay toward the Organic and All Natural lines. The flavored line is more for fun.

As to the nature of every ingredient of the flavoring in the flavored line, that is considered a trade secret by the vapor liquid manufacturer. They will no more release it to us than any other manufacturer will release it to any one. Our provided documentation states "All ingredients in flavors are approved for use in a regulation of the FDA or are approved as GRAS on a reliable industry list" and would be on par with any reputable lime of vaporizable products available on the market.

Now of course this documentation should be available for review, but we also need to maintain a business model and not disclose our trade secrets and suppliers, so we have provided all our documents and manufacturers to an independent third party laboratory for authentication. This allows a third party to review our ingredients, the size and scale of the companies we work with which lends to the creditability of their statements, and provide a document which we can release that you may present to whomever, while still maintaining our trade secrets. Ill include a copy below.

I hope this answers the majority of your question. Please understand that there are just going to people that will not be happy until we disclose each ingredient and their proportions. Anyone with common sense would understand how releasing recipes of our products would effect our company. Its very hard to distinguish between a curious customer and someone with a larger company trying to steal trade secrets. If you think they would be above posing as a upset customer, think twice lol. Honestly, I think we give out too much already, but I want to be as upfront as possible, because the question is valid. I would be happy to expand on a subject, if I can-

Drew

 

[woolspinner]

Of course. Its a little complicated due to the amount of different ingredients we use, but I will go over it.

To start, we only source organic terpenes found in the extracts of the cannabis plant. If its a terpene not found in cannabis, we don't use it. By organic, we mean extracted from a plant in nature, and not synthetically created in a lab. We have that option, they are cheaper, and there are some terpenes we would really like to use but they are only available in a synthetic version, so we have to pass. It has been something the customers have been very clear about in what they look for in a product, and we agree.

Our terpenes are food grade or above and come from a very large and reputable company that has been around for a while, servicing laboratories and companies around the world. We have requested and keep on file the msds and certifications of every ingredient we source from them. Our terpenes are certified kosher, non gmo, FDA GRAS, and not tested on animals.

We have been assured that the terpenes are pure by the company we source from, but we have also heard reports of small amounts of ethanol in testing from a customer. I have every terpene in a lab being individually tested for ethanol as we speak. Having said that, we have seen where labs testing our terpenes have had the GCMS misinterpret the terpenes as other components. We have had that happen in a couple labs across the country. It really proves that the lab testing is not as exact as they want you to believe. We have had two companies so far have to completely redo how they test because the tests were showing impossible things, this we proved by performing control tests. I would like to expand, but we are still in the process and do want to misinform. But to be clear, it was absolutely proven the GCMS of two very reputable companies were putting out very false results. Not on purpose of course, but they are focused on a couple forms of testing, for potency and residuals, and never really thought beyond that.
Long story short, I want to make sure the same thing is not happening on the ethanol, that would be an even easier error than what we had found. So we are looking into it and it takes time.

We create blends from a variety of terpenes after performing a lab analysis of the strain, and recreate it. This comprises our Organic line of products. As to the extraction method of the individual terpenes, they are considered a trade secret by our supplier and they will not disclose the methods.

For our all natural line we add pure essential oils, such a lemon, lime, tangerine and so on to our terpene blends. They too are certified organic, in the sense they are not created in a lab, and are extracted from plants.

Our Flavored line is composed of Organic terpenes, combined with artificial flavoring. We work closely with a very reputable, large company that produces many lines of vapor pen fluids. You would know them. I work with the owner, as well as the staff quite often. From them, we source our flavoring we add for blends such as Bubblegum, Green Apple and others not found in nature. They have been in existence for a long time, are well regarded, and are very aware of all the restricted components such as diacetyl, acetoin, sugars or artificial sweeteners, and do not use them, and have provided documentation to us regarding such. We also do not use anything buttery flavored or even close.

Now the flavorings in the Flavored Line does contain Propylene Glycol. It is an emulsifying ingredient use by the flavoring manufacturer. We have requested the same flavoring without it, and they are working on it. Its going to take time, and it might not work. It is a small percentage of the flavoring. We have been very clear about PG being in the flavored line on the site, enough to where anything that does contain PG has to be in the Flavored line, a product line created just for products that contain small amounts of PG.


It is also possible, and probable, that the flavoring used in the Flavored line contains small amounts of alcohol. Its pretty much a given that the flavored line is going to contain items not organic in nature, so we recommend that if your going for testing and organics, stay toward the Organic and All Natural lines. The flavored line is more for fun.

As to the nature of every ingredient of the flavoring in the flavored line, that is considered a trade secret by the vapor liquid manufacturer. They will no more release it to us than any other manufacturer will release it to any one. Our provided documentation states "All ingredients in flavors are approved for use in a regulation of the FDA or are approved as GRAS on a reliable industry list" and would be on par with any reputable lime of vaporizable products available on the market.

Now of course this documentation should be available for review, but we also need to maintain a business model and not disclose our trade secrets and suppliers, so we have provided all our documents and manufacturers to an independent third party laboratory for authentication. This allows a third party to review our ingredients, the size and scale of the companies we work with which lends to the creditability of their statements, and provide a document which we can release that you may present to whomever, while still maintaining our trade secrets. Ill include a copy below.

I hope this answers the majority of your question. Please understand that there are just going to people that will not be happy until we disclose each ingredient and their proportions. Anyone with common sense would understand how releasing recipes of our products would effect our company. Its very hard to distinguish between a curious customer and someone with a larger company trying to steal trade secrets. If you think they would be above posing as a upset customer, think twice lol. Honestly, I think we give out too much already, but I want to be as upfront as possible, because the question is valid. I would be happy to expand on a subject, if I can-

Drew

Thank you for this thoughtful response. So is it the terpenes themselves that are liquudizing the concentrate added? That was my question - other than limonene, I do not know what might be in the mix to bind and liquidize the shatter/budder/rosin.

 

[connoisseurcon]

Thank you for this thoughtful response. So is it the terpenes themselves that are liquudizing the concentrate added? That was my question - other than limonene, I do not know what might be in the mix to bind and liquidize the shatter/budder/rosin.

Yes, the terpenes are acting as the Dilutant, as well as the flavoring. And its only the terpenes that are the diluting agent. Unfortunately. I would love to have a flavorless organic cannabis dilutant, and then be able to separately add terpenes, but it goes against the nature of a terpene, which for all intents and purposes is a scent molecule.

We have found limonene to be very harsh compared to our terpenes, and don't use it currently. I'm working on it. In blind testing, whenever we added even a drop, people said it tasted harsh. and that's out of 24 drops. We create 48 drop blends, its how we mix the blends... the math works out. We have some that work when using half a drop, but that's been the perceived enjoyable threshold. I know people extract with it, I would love to see how that compares with our blends. It must be working though for people.

 

[woolspinner]

Yes, the terpenes are acting as the Dilutant, as well as the flavoring. And its only the terpenes that are the diluting agent. Unfortunately. I would love to have a flavorless organic cannabis dilutant, and then be able to separately add terpenes, but it goes against the nature of a terpene, which for all intents and purposes is a scent molecule.

We have found limonene to be very harsh compared to our terpenes, and don't use it currently. I'm working on it. In blind testing, whenever we added even a drop, people said it tasted harsh. and that's out of 24 drops. We create 48 drop blends, its how we mix the blends... the math works out. We have some that work when using half a drop, but that's been the perceived enjoyable threshold. I know people extract with it, I would love to see how that compares with our blends. It must be working though for people.

I was concerned about limonene because I heard it can be a real respiratory irritant at too large a percentage. That is my main concern. I used a more traditional mix for my first liquid and one of the ingredients seems to be setting off my asthma, so I will be curious to try your mix since it contains totally different ingredients, no crossover, I think.
You do not add any VG, right? I think you are fully glycol-free?

Thanks for answering our questions. I, for one, really appreciate it when vendors are on FC answering questions.

 

[Happy Jack]

Of course. Its a little complicated due to the amount of different ingredients we use, but I will go over it.

To start, we only source organic terpenes found in the extracts of the cannabis plant. If its a terpene not found in cannabis, we don't use it. By organic, we mean extracted from a plant in nature, and not synthetically created in a lab. We have that option, they are cheaper, and there are some terpenes we would really like to use but they are only available in a synthetic version, so we have to pass. It has been something the customers have been very clear about in what they look for in a product, and we agree.

Our terpenes are food grade or above and come from a very large and reputable company that has been around for a while, servicing laboratories and companies around the world. We have requested and keep on file the msds and certifications of every ingredient we source from them. Our terpenes are certified kosher, non gmo, FDA GRAS, and not tested on animals.

We have been assured that the terpenes are pure by the company we source from, but we have also heard reports of small amounts of ethanol in testing from a customer. I have every terpene in a lab being individually tested for ethanol as we speak. Having said that, we have seen where labs testing our terpenes have had the GCMS misinterpret the terpenes as other components. We have had that happen in a couple labs across the country. It really proves that the lab testing is not as exact as they want you to believe. We have had two companies so far have to completely redo how they test because the tests were showing impossible things, this we proved by performing control tests. I would like to expand, but we are still in the process and do want to misinform. But to be clear, it was absolutely proven the GCMS of two very reputable companies were putting out very false results. Not on purpose of course, but they are focused on a couple forms of testing, for potency and residuals, and never really thought beyond that.
Long story short, I want to make sure the same thing is not happening on the ethanol, that would be an even easier error than what we had found. So we are looking into it and it takes time.

We create blends from a variety of terpenes after performing a lab analysis of the strain, and recreate it. This comprises our Organic line of products. As to the extraction method of the individual terpenes, they are considered a trade secret by our supplier and they will not disclose the methods.

For our all natural line we add pure essential oils, such a lemon, lime, tangerine and so on to our terpene blends. They too are certified organic, in the sense they are not created in a lab, and are extracted from plants.

Our Flavored line is composed of Organic terpenes, combined with artificial flavoring. We work closely with a very reputable, large company that produces many lines of vapor pen fluids. You would know them. I work with the owner, as well as the staff quite often. From them, we source our flavoring we add for blends such as Bubblegum, Green Apple and others not found in nature. They have been in existence for a long time, are well regarded, and are very aware of all the restricted components such as diacetyl, acetoin, sugars or artificial sweeteners, and do not use them, and have provided documentation to us regarding such. We also do not use anything buttery flavored or even close.

Now the flavorings in the Flavored Line does contain Propylene Glycol. It is an emulsifying ingredient use by the flavoring manufacturer. We have requested the same flavoring without it, and they are working on it. Its going to take time, and it might not work. It is a small percentage of the flavoring. We have been very clear about PG being in the flavored line on the site, enough to where anything that does contain PG has to be in the Flavored line, a product line created just for products that contain small amounts of PG.


It is also possible, and probable, that the flavoring used in the Flavored line contains small amounts of alcohol. Its pretty much a given that the flavored line is going to contain items not organic in nature, so we recommend that if your going for testing and organics, stay toward the Organic and All Natural lines. The flavored line is more for fun.

As to the nature of every ingredient of the flavoring in the flavored line, that is considered a trade secret by the vapor liquid manufacturer. They will no more release it to us than any other manufacturer will release it to any one. Our provided documentation states "All ingredients in flavors are approved for use in a regulation of the FDA or are approved as GRAS on a reliable industry list" and would be on par with any reputable lime of vaporizable products available on the market.

Now of course this documentation should be available for review, but we also need to maintain a business model and not disclose our trade secrets and suppliers, so we have provided all our documents and manufacturers to an independent third party laboratory for authentication. This allows a third party to review our ingredients, the size and scale of the companies we work with which lends to the creditability of their statements, and provide a document which we can release that you may present to whomever, while still maintaining our trade secrets. Ill include a copy below.

I hope this answers the majority of your question. Please understand that there are just going to people that will not be happy until we disclose each ingredient and their proportions. Anyone with common sense would understand how releasing recipes of our products would effect our company. Its very hard to distinguish between a curious customer and someone with a larger company trying to steal trade secrets. If you think they would be above posing as a upset customer, think twice lol. Honestly, I think we give out too much already, but I want to be as upfront as possible, because the question is valid. I would be happy to expand on a subject, if I can-

Drew

There are ZERO terpenes in cannabis that are EXCLUSIVE to cannabis plants. Furthermore, cannabis extracts contain no more than an average of 5% total terpenes. To imply that your solution is made up of NOTHING but terpenes is a flat out lie ..... but assuming it was ... at the add back rates you are suggesting (which is 30%-60%) ...... you are in effect poisoning people. I've tried your product and I'll be the first to admit it does the job ............. but your lack of full disclosure will bring this to an end rather quickly I'm afraid. Buyer beware.

I was concerned about limonene because I heard it can be a real respiratory irritant at too large a percentage. That is my main concern. I used a more traditional mix for my first liquid and one of the ingredients seems to be setting off my asthma, so I will be curious to try your mix since it contains totally different ingredients, no crossover, I think.
You do not add any VG, right? I think you are fully glycol-free?

Thanks for answering our questions. I, for one, really appreciate it when vendors are on FC answering questions.

Answering questions ..... or telling you what you want to hear are two diffent things.

 

[seaofgreens]

@connoisseurcon

Hey, any chance we can purchase "the solution," in smaller than 25g quantities? Like 5g? I would like to try it, the sample pack doesn't interest me, and I am not interested enough to drop a large amount of money right away. Would be nice to have smaller a la cart options for people to sample the product alone?

 

[connoisseurcon]

There are ZERO terpenes in cannabis that are EXCLUSIVE to cannabis plants. Furthermore, cannabis extracts contain no more than an average of 5% total terpenes. To imply that your solution is made up of NOTHING but terpenes is a flat out lie ..... but assuming it was ... at the add back rates you are suggesting (which is 30%-60%) ...... you are in effect poisoning people. I've tried your product and I'll be the first to admit it does the job ............. but your lack of full disclosure will bring this to an end rather quickly I'm afraid. Buyer beware.

While there may be no terpenes that are exclusive to the cannabis plant there are a very wide variety of terpenes that are not found in the cannabis plant, and we choose not to use those.

I would disagree on your comment of poisoning people. Terpenes have been used for centuries and have a huge variety of medical benefits, and to compare the amount of terpenes a person would use to obtain those medical benefits solely to the amount of terpenes that are contained in the cannabis plant extract I believe would be an incorrect comparison.

As a company, we of course do not claim the medical benefits of terpenes, that is for scientists and doctors to do.

We of course take the claims from a customer claiming that we are poisoning people very seriously and would appreciate that you do not say these things unless you have proof of such, other than your opinion.

We will of course respect your opinion, everyone has one. If what you are saying is true the industry has a very large problem as there are many companies extracting terpenes from the cannabis plant which are also being used in vapor pens. That would indicate that a pure cannabis extract would also be poisoning people as we all know that all terpenes are the same regardless of what plant they come from.

Terpenes, as well as propylene glycol and polyethylene glycol as well as vaping in general are all a topic of debate as to the health concerns which many scientists around the world are working on figuring out. Today it is the savior of smoking tomorrow it causes cancer and the day after that it cures cancer. That's life. I'm open for discussion on the topic but I would appreciate it if you refrain from making those claims without proof that vaporizing small amounts of terpenes at a time are poisoning people.

 

[Bad Ocelot]

I have worked pretty hard to build the burners as a good pen, we wanted to offer an inexpensive pen so that people without pens could have a quick way to try our product, but as with anything inexpensive, you can have issues. We sell so many thousands of them a month your bound to get failures, I just hate it when it happens. I would love to include a more expensive pen then a disposable, but we wanted to keep the price down, $40 bucks for a sample pack is pretty good in my opinion, and we make almost nothing on them. I would be more than happy for a recommendation on a cheap alternative to them we can give out with our packs. Its a trade off, better pens= higher sample pack cost.... We really wanted to focus on the Solution, and not hardware. Sometime I debate if it would be better to offer a cheaper pack with no burners, but how many people would then have to go out and buy a pen at the store for at least $20 bucks....then they might get a really crappy one and think its our product that's the issue, it a tough call for us.

Having said that, we don't have many failures. Some, not many. I wish none, I hate to hear when concentrates get lost and we do our best to make up for it whenever we hear it happens. Usually, when you get liquid down at the LED level it was because liquid made its way down the center white tube, which goes past the wick and into the battery area. It seems pretty hard to get past the factory seal that holds the liquid in the wick. I never like to put blame on the customer, its a bad way to do business, so we always assume the seal could have leaked. Usually liquid just accidently got inserted in the tube instead of the cloth wick area. We trust that you would just let us know if liquid got down the center tube, and if not, we assume the seals leaked due to a physical, not chemical compatibility malfunction. No problem

From what you have mentioned, I may guess that the extract was not diluted enough, and was a little thick. Hard to tell, each extract react differently due to wax content.

I would be happy to offer to replace the entire kit to help offset your loss, a couple new samples for your time, and maybe you could throw up some pics in the process so we could nail it down. We sell out of the 510s so fast I never had really had time to put them on the site- but we have them. .3 and 1 ml tanks, or third and one gram as we call them. A new batch is shipping from China Mon or Tuesday, and we are also getting some wick based 510s (like the burners) to try out and offer. Ill update the site this time for availability, and you can always call us and we will make it happen.

Thanks so much for the reply & the generous offer. I'll DM you with details & pictures. Totally understand the economics of the burners, just thought it odd I had two fail but pretty sure the second one was user error. The leaky one was probably a dud though. I've been messing with various vape stuff for several years now so definitely didn't squirt ejuice into the airway, even if an errant drop got in there during the filling process the amount that leaked out was substantial. I suppose it's possible I mixed the first batch too thin, but I wouldn't think that would cause the contents to leak out like that.

The second batch, which coagulated in the burner, seemed like it was at an appropriate viscosity, and the burner worked the evening I filled it & tried it out, but failed the following day. I put the remainder of that batch in a juulpod to evaluate in a different device & it worked pretty well all night, but again the following day it had become too thick to vape. It seems to be something about heating it then leaving it cold overnight. Perhaps something is evaporating out? Regardless I imagine making the juice a little thinner will help. Do let me know if you have any suggestions, tips, tricks, etc.

Thanks again!

 

[connoisseurcon]

Thanks so much for the reply & the generous offer. I'll DM you with details & pictures. Totally understand the economics of the burners, just thought it odd I had two fail but pretty sure the second one was user error. The leaky one was probably a dud though. I've been messing with various vape stuff for several years now so definitely didn't squirt ejuice into the airway, even if an errant drop got in there during the filling process the amount that leaked out was substantial. I suppose it's possible I mixed the first batch too thin, but I wouldn't think that would cause the contents to leak out like that.

The second batch, which coagulated in the burner, seemed like it was at an appropriate viscosity, and the burner worked the evening I filled it & tried it out, but failed the following day. I put the remainder of that batch in a juulpod to evaluate in a different device & it worked pretty well all night, but again the following day it had become too thick to vape. It seems to be something about heating it then leaving it cold overnight. Perhaps something is evaporating out? Regardless I imagine making the juice a little thinner will help. Do let me know if you have any suggestions, tips, tricks, etc.

Thanks again!

You sounds like you know what your doing, and I'm guessing you got a dud, it happens for sure. We would love to make it up to you, I know concentrates are expensive. One of the things we see is that when heating and stirring the Solution/Concentrate mixture, when warm/hot, the viscosity will be very thin, and thicken up when its cooler. What may seem very liquid when hot may be very thick when cool, and mainly due to the wax content of the concentrates. I always recommend that after heating you allow to cool to room temp, and then gauge the viscosity. Granite countertops work great, they suck the heat out in a few minutes. Once you get a working knowledge of how your particular extracts blend with the solution, you'll have an idea on how much to add and can skip this cooling step. If you add the mix into a pen hot assuming one viscosity, and it cools into a thicker liquid, you can see some of the vaping problems.

@connoisseurcon

Hey, any chance we can purchase "the solution," in smaller than 25g quantities? Like 5g? I would like to try it, the sample pack doesn't interest me, and I am not interested enough to drop a large amount of money right away. Would be nice to have smaller a la cart options for people to sample the product alone?

Due to the amount of flavors we have, times all the different bottle sizes, it becomes a lot to work with. We have about 20 flavors and 7 current sizes, that's 140 different options, and we have more flavors to release. We are working to expand our sizes, but it a lot of work lol. Right now we are developing our retail program, which will consist of a retail box with a rechargeable evod unit, 5 different solutions in 2 gram bottles, eyedropper and mixing vial. In addition to retail 25 gram bottles and 100 gram bottles, we will be offering retail outlets a case of (100) 10 gram bottles of the Solution. Should be available in about 45 days. We really don't want to be a retail company, we focus on wholesale, but we understand the desire for retail size products, so we are working on a large program to get the products to local establishments. The retail demand is huge, we have about 2-3 stores a day on average request to carry the line, which we have not advertised. We are working on it as fast as possible. Ill include a pic of some of our prototypes, working hard to provide a Connoisseur grade product and experience The only middle option we currently have is the ten pack, ten items of your choice for $70, which would add up to about 6 grams.

 

[Happy Jack]

While there may be no terpenes that are exclusive to the cannabis plant there are a very wide variety of terpenes that are not found in the cannabis plant, and we choose not to use those.

I would disagree on your comment of poisoning people. Terpenes have been used for centuries and have a huge variety of medical benefits, and to compare the amount of terpenes a person would use to obtain those medical benefits solely to the amount of terpenes that are contained in the cannabis plant extract I believe would be an incorrect comparison.

As a company, we of course do not claim the medical benefits of terpenes, that is for scientists and doctors to do.

We of course take the claims from a customer claiming that we are poisoning people very seriously and would appreciate that you do not say these things unless you have proof of such, other than your opinion.

We will of course respect your opinion, everyone has one. If what you are saying is true the industry has a very large problem as there are many companies extracting terpenes from the cannabis plant which are also being used in vapor pens. That would indicate that a pure cannabis extract would also be poisoning people as we all know that all terpenes are the same regardless of what plant they come from.

Terpenes, as well as propylene glycol and polyethylene glycol as well as vaping in general are all a topic of debate as to the health concerns which many scientists around the world are working on figuring out. Today it is the savior of smoking tomorrow it causes cancer and the day after that it cures cancer. That's life. I'm open for discussion on the topic but I would appreciate it if you refrain from making those claims without proof that vaporizing small amounts of terpenes at a time are poisoning people.

Propylene glycol has been approved by the FDA since the 1940's under GRAS status and has been used in inhaling devices for decades. To attempt to lump PG/VG with your 'mystery potion" is flat out wrong.

Terpenes of course are in so many organisms it would make your head spin.. all in very small amounts. The fact of the matter is ......... in cannabis extractions their presence is very minute and for good reason ............ they can be very hazardous with very dramatic and inarguably negative effects on one's health if taken in greater than safe doses. You mentioned that I should refrain from making claims without proof that vaping terpenes in small doses is poisoning people. I never made such claims ..............I'm positive that vaporizing concentrates made up of 5%-7% total terpenes (which is what anyone will find in any dispensary) is perfectly fine. The issue is ........... that's not what you are selling is it? You are selling a product that is designed to boost the terpene levels of the concentrate from 5% to 60%. A HUGE difference. Where's the proof that is safe?

Since you have no desire to publish a list of ingrediates in your product I stand by my assumption that not only you have something to hide but you have zero research to back up the safety of your product. The burden of proof is on you Drew ....... not me. You want me to stop? Then quit dancing around the subject and lay it out for everyone to see. Until then ...... for all anyone knows ....... the Solution is made up of 10% terpenes and 90% Drano.

 

[connoisseurcon]

Propylene glycol has been approved by the FDA since the 1940's under GRAS status and has been used in inhaling devices for decades. To attempt to lump PG/VG with your 'mystery potion" is flat out wrong.

Terpenes of course are in so many organisms it would make your head spin.. all in very small amounts. The fact of the matter is ......... in cannabis extractions their presence is very minute and for good reason ............ they can be very hazardous with very dramatic and inarguably negative effects on one's health if taken in greater than safe doses. You mentioned that I should refrain from making claims without proof that vaping terpenes in small doses is poisoning people. I never made such claims ..............I'm positive that vaporizing concentrates made up of 5%-7% total terpenes (which is what anyone will find in any dispensary) is perfectly fine. The issue is ........... that's not what you are selling is it? You are selling a product that is designed to boost the terpene levels of the concentrate from 5% to 60%. A HUGE difference. Where's the proof that is safe?

Since you have no desire to publish a list of ingrediates in your product I stand by my assumption that not only you have something to hide but you have zero research to back up the safety of your product. The burden of proof is on you Drew ....... not me. You want me to stop? Then quit dancing around the subject and lay it out for everyone to see. Until then ...... for all anyone knows ....... the Solution is made up of 10% terpenes and 90% Drano.

I appreciate you clarifying that you are not making that claim, and appreciate the discussion. It seems to me that you have two main topics here, our specific ingredients, and the safety of them.

I write lengthy responses, I hope you don't mind. So first, PG has been listed as GRAS for use in food, not for inhalation, and that's all. While there may be studies out regarding the inhalation of PG, it is obviously still being researched and up for debate, and wont be solved here today. All of our ingredients have also been certified FDA GRAS, and we have provided documentation as such.

The argument you make that the inhalation of a substance with 5% terpenes vs 60%% terpenes is flawed, and I will explain why. Just to clarify, we recommend a ratio of 1 gram extract to .5 gram terpenes, which result in a 33% terpene mixture, plus whatever is currently in the extract.

The percentage of terpenes in the extract is not important, what is important is how much terpenes is being delivered into the body in a given time. I could have a substance that is 5% terpenes and drink a gallon of it and I will be exposed to far more terpenes than a small puff off an extract that is 100% terpenes.

So if we are discussing how much terpenes that are being delivered into the body at a given time, lets compare what we already see, competitions and videos where people take 3 and 5 gram dabs. I would argue that at your math, they would be ingesting 1/4 gram of pure terpenes at one time. 5 grams (5000 mg) x 5% terpenes = 250 mg or 1/4 gram. With no ill effects of terpene overdose anyone has seen.

In our recommended ratios, lets go overboard and shoot for twice the recommended amount, 50%. That's one gram extract, one gram terpenes. In our testing, we have found that you receive about 60 puffs from .5 grams of the mixture. Lets make it easier for the math, and say 50 puffs per half gram or 100 puffs per gram. That would mean per puff you would be ingesting 500 mg (half gram Solution) / 100 puffs = 5 mg Terpenes per puff. Now at a very high dilution rate, double the recommended dosage, and a low puff rate, you are still 50 times below what we see people do every day on social media, people who are not reporting any terpene issues.

Now I would personally argue that vaping or smoking anything is most likely not good for you. There are safer methods of receiving medication if you are looking to medicate. I believe we are all vaping because we enjoy it, and do so understanding the risks of inhalation and addiction, in regards to nicotine, and believe them to be very minor.

Terpenes, like nicotine, are not meant to be eaten or drunken. Nicotine can kill you if ingested, in not very large amounts either. Yet we use it in small amount every day. Large amounts for some users who make their own mixes, and what would arguably make me very sick if I tried to inhale, they do so easily every day. The same can be said for terpenes. The only basis I see for your argument is that you currently see people vaping extracts of 5%-7% with no ill effects, and use that as proof of its safety. I would again argue that so far we have been watching people take ridiculous dabs, multiple grams, and using terpenes in vape pens and we are not seeing any ill effects. If the proof you use is in how people are using them, people are using them, and they are fine.


Now, I don't want you stop voicing concerns, I am here specifically to talk about anyone's questions and address any concerns. I just asked that we could discuss it in a way that is not libelous and uncalled for, and I appreciate that you are doing so, we can agree or disagree in a conversation.

I will be very clear on what I have to hide, if you wish to call it that.

I have worked, for years, on this formula. Invested years of my life, many many thousands of dollars, thousands of failures and used time on this I could have been spending on my patents or extraction device line to make a high quality well functioning vape product. It has a business value, and a value to me personally. I am not interested in turning over my recipe or list of ingredients so that my hard work can be easily duplicated, and put myself out of business. Its that simple. There is no magic ingredient we don't want to disclose. With the availability of GCMS its only a short matter of time before our formulas are reverse engineered and I suspect they have been already. In fact I know of someone who did that, and unfortunately for them we were in a non compete that resulted in an unfavorable situation for them, long story. But with the prevalence of required testing that is in the cannabis industry, coupled with the massive amount of customers we have, if there was something in there that was different then we are saying, you would have heard about it.

Lastly, I'm going to use Coke as an example. We have excellent lawyers, and have researched the trade secret laws thoroughly. We have disclosed way more than is required by laws regarding trade secrets.

The UTSA defines trade secret as "information, including a formula, pattern, compilation, program device, method, technique, or process, that: (i) derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable by proper means by, other persons who can obtain economic value from its disclosure or use, and (ii) is the subject of efforts that are reasonable under the circumstances to maintain its secrecy."

We have explained that we only use terpenes found in cannabis, so there is your list of ingredients. If you look at a Coke bottle it lists natural flavoring, or artificial flavoring in other cases. The reason the individual ingredients are not listed is due to the ease of replication, and not because it is 90% Drain-0.

It would be nice for you to come to an understanding about our product, and I hope you do so. I really hope that you take a good look at the majority of items for sale that you use in life and how product ingredients are disclosed. Some companies don't care about if people copy their product, and now they compete with 35 knockoffs. I really don't want to pursure that business model, I believe if you want it bad enough, invest years of your life instead of stealing years of mine. At the end of the day we have gone pretty far to obtain certification on our ingredients, and have presented them, and I belive that will suffice for the vast majority of consumers.

To be very clear, I will post it for you here, again.
We use a blend of plant extracted Terpenes, organic, not synthetic, and only terpenes found naturally in the Cannabis plant. To this we add natural, and artificial flavorings to create our All Natural and Flavored lines. In the Flavored line, the flavoring used contains small amounts of Propylene Glycol.

 

[VEGASMMJ]

Propylene glycol has been approved by the FDA since the 1940's under GRAS status and has been used in inhaling devices for decades. To attempt to lump PG/VG with your 'mystery potion" is flat out wrong.

Terpenes of course are in so many organisms it would make your head spin.. all in very small amounts. The fact of the matter is ......... in cannabis extractions their presence is very minute and for good reason ............ they can be very hazardous with very dramatic and inarguably negative effects on one's health if taken in greater than safe doses. You mentioned that I should refrain from making claims without proof that vaping terpenes in small doses is poisoning people. I never made such claims ..............I'm positive that vaporizing concentrates made up of 5%-7% total terpenes (which is what anyone will find in any dispensary) is perfectly fine. The issue is ........... that's not what you are selling is it? You are selling a product that is designed to boost the terpene levels of the concentrate from 5% to 60%. A HUGE difference. Where's the proof that is safe?

Since you have no desire to publish a list of ingrediates in your product I stand by my assumption that not only you have something to hide but you have zero research to back up the safety of your product. The burden of proof is on you Drew ....... not me. You want me to stop? Then quit dancing around the subject and lay it out for everyone to see. Until then ...... for all anyone knows ....... the Solution is made up of 10% terpenes and 90% Drano.

This guy has had a bone to pick with CC for a long time. This is slander/libel whatever u wanna call it. I think a mod needs to step in here.

 

[Monsoon]

Due to the amount of flavors we have, times all the different bottle sizes, it becomes a lot to work with. We have about 20 flavors and 7 current sizes, that's 140 different options, and we have more flavors to release. We are working to expand our sizes, but it a lot of work lol. Right now we are developing our retail program, which will consist of a retail box with a rechargeable evod unit, 5 different solutions in 2 gram bottles, eyedropper and mixing vial. In addition to retail 25 gram bottles and 100 gram bottles, we will be offering retail outlets a case of (100) 10 gram bottles of the Solution. Should be available in about 45 days. We really don't want to be a retail company, we focus on wholesale, but we understand the desire for retail size products, so we are working on a large program to get the products to local establishments. The retail demand is huge, we have about 2-3 stores a day on average request to carry the line, which we have not advertised. We are working on it as fast as possible. Ill include a pic of some of our prototypes, working hard to provide a Connoisseur grade product and experience The only middle option we currently have is the ten pack, ten items of your choice for $70, which would add up to about 6 gram

Could you maybe list your resellers on your website? That way you can direct smaller orders to them while also giving them some promotion (if they want it). The Potion seems to be one but I haven't come across any others yet.

 

[Happy Jack]

This guy has had a bone to pick with CC for a long time. This is slander/libel whatever u wanna call it. I think a mod needs to step in here.

I've stated what needed to be stated. You can take it or leave it. If you will blindly vape whatever is put in front of you with no regard to what's in it, that's up to you. Here's a suggestion ..... why don't you simply vape the "Solution" by itself and see how you feel? You can do that all day with any PG/VG mix. Peace out ....

 

[seaofgreens]

@Happy Jack

Aside from some referencing to terpene toxicity, which doesn't appear deadly from my research so far, I can't find a whole lot about the dangers you are referencing. Would you be so kind as to link us in to what scientific studies you are referring to?

 

[Genki88]

@connoisseurcon your new droppers are terrible.

 

[connoisseurcon]

@connoisseurcon your new droppers are terrible.

Droppers lol tell me about it. Of all things to have to deal with. You know, we order expensive ones from a reputable lab supply company, they suck, we get cheap ones, they are great and then you cant get anymore of them. You cant win. I'm sorry, I will work on it and check the ones we have now. I have found that just moving the bulb down a little solves the problem for me, I think they just didn't come positioned correctly, but no excuses, Ill work on better ones.

 

[Happy Jack]

@Happy Jack

Aside from some referencing to terpene toxicity, which doesn't appear deadly from my research so far, I can't find a whole lot about the dangers you are referencing. Would you be so kind as to link us in to what scientific studies you are referring to?

If you are incapable of even searching "terpene overdose" ...... I can't be of any assistance.

 

[trichome_renaissance]

If you are incapable of even searching "terpene overdose" ...... I can't be of any assistance.

I believe you are raising some interesting points and thank you for doing so Jack. I also believe you are arguing the position you are arguing because you care about people and don't want them to do something that you believe is harmful to themselves, rather than because you just want to "be right" and be able to say I told you so. With that in mind, perhaps attempting to be less snarky and more constructive / diplomatic would aid in your presumably altruistic goal? No need to undermine the content of your argument with the tone you are presenting it in IMHO.

 

[seaofgreens]

If you are incapable of even searching "terpene overdose" ...... I can't be of any assistance.

Are you?

If you type in "terpene overdose," go ahead, I'll wait for you, since you obviously haven't even bothered to research the term yourself....

...

...

Did you check yet?

Result 1)
Terpene Toxicity: Background, Pathophysiology ...


Result 2)

Terpene Toxicity Treatment & Management: Prehospital ..
EWa

Result 4)

Turpentine oil poisoning: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Result 5)
Marijuana and Terpenes: An Overview - TruthOnPot.com




Gee.... Where the hell is the GLARING information I should get in a simple google search?Why don't you get off your fucking high horse? None of those links blatantly points out deadly risks. Result 3 was about the biomedical significance of terpenes. Doubt that was relevant in any way.

Went ahead and looked through things for a while: This refers to exposure specifically to pine oil and turpentine. All evidence of toxicity so far relates to terpentine or pine oil. Is that important? Are you even a legitimate source for answering that question? These cases I assume are not respiratory, I also have no quantitative idea of how much these folks were exposed to, the disposition of the patients who died etc... This is the kind of information I believe all of us would like to know about. If you have said information, then share it.

Morbidity and mortality[6] associated with exposure to terpenes is largely related to the degree of CNS depression and if aspiration occurs. Despite the toxicity of these agents, morbidity is extremely low.

According to the 2009 Annual Report of the American Association of Poison Control National Poison Data System, 3362 single exposures to disinfectants containing pine oil, 10,714 single exposures to camphor, and 422 single exposures to turpentine were reported.[5] Exposure to pine oil resulted in 2 deaths, and exposure to turpentine resulted in 1 death. No deaths resulted from exposure to camphor.[5]

Of course, you can find this too:

Propylene glycol (PG), a widely used solvent and lubricant, is thought to have low toxicity when ingested. Three cases were identified where PG, either alone or in combination with other chemical agents, contributed to death.

I believe you are raising some interesting points and thank you for doing so Jack. I also believe you are arguing the position you are arguing because you care about people and don't want them to do something that you believe is harmful to themselves, rather than because you just want to "be right" and be able to say I told you so. With that in mind, perhaps attempting to be less snarky and more constructive / diplomatic would aid in your presumably altruistic goal? No need to undermine the content of your argument with the tone you are presenting it in IMHO.

If he cared about other people, he would go ahead and try and assist them. Not call them idiots for asking for information.

 

[connoisseurcon]

As a company, we took time to research the potential dangers of each of our individual components before releasing the Solution. We have and keep on file the MSDS of each of the components we use. From the MSDS you can see that toxicity fell under two different categories, inhalation and ingestion. There are undoubtedly issues with terpenes being ingested in the form of basically drinking them. We weighed this fact, and decided that the same applies with nicotine, and cannabis oils in general. Nicotine would obviously have lethal effects when ingested in small amounts, and I don't thinking drinking a few grams of cannabis oils would be any fun time either. We make sure to include a warning with our products that this product should not be eaten or drunk, and I really don't think any thing meant to be smoked should be eaten and vise versa, the products are usually prepared differently due to the ingestion method and concentrations.

I had also personally taken the time to call the National Poison Control Hot Line to discuss what issues may occur from different types of ingestion of the terpenes we use. The results were interesting.

The terpenes we use were not listed under their database as components that were dangerous, most likely from their FDA Generally Regarded As Safe (GRAS) designation. I was told for each terpene that when ingested through drinking that an upset stomach could occur. That was all. I was also told that in order to treat ingestion you would treat the symptoms, nausea and so on, but nothing else.

Inhalation may cause respiratory issues in the form of a sore throat, or what we commonly see as a harsh hit. We have not seen any reports of an actual sore throats, just a few people saying the mixture was harsh when inhaled. We have had people report harsh hits when the mixture of terpenes to extract becomes higher than about .8 grams Solution to 1 gram extract or about a 1 to 1 ratio. Of the thousands and thousand of these products that we have sold, we have not had one report of a sore throat.

The terpenes should not be vaped by themselves, they are too strong and basically unenjoyable, they need a carrier, and we formulated it to be the cannabis extract. You also don't vape pure nicotine. If you think of them as an alcohol, its easier to understand. By themselves they are harsh to vape, but in the recommended mixture levels they are not harsh at all. When we discuss what amount is safe to vape, I personally think on the ratios we have listed, and seeing when you exceed them it becomes harsh, I would set that at the safe limit before you see any detrimental signs, in the form of a harsh hit.