Concentrate vaporization devices

[sticky555]

Now im not sure about portable vaporization of concentrates there are many pens, atomizers, all kinds of designs it's quite confusing. In terms of desktop vaporization it seems like enails are the best for concentrates but sometimes I feel like water pipes make the hit harder especially recyclers cause it takes so much water and lung power to make them function. Are there any others for desktops im missing that don't involve water filtration? On to my question about portable pens I have a Firefly 2 and while that works amazing for concentrates what the deal with these others that use coils and just straight up scorch the oil are these any good? I've seen those things like honey straws and people rave about them seems less portable though. I guess what im trying to ask is are there any things in missing I don't mind if it's convection or conduction.

 

[invertedisdead]

It shouldn't take a lot of lung power for an oil piece, especially if it's a smaller flavor saver 10mm type. Some recyclers might but that's bad design, I hit a recycler all the time, barely any draw needed for function. I use a Divine Tribe v3 for ultra portable concentrate use but I'm going to try my Vapcap next. A lot of good reports using the Vapcap for concentrates. The v3 is awesome for a fast easy low key hit. Looks like an ecig so I feel very comfortable bringing it anywhere.

 

[herbivore21]

@sticky555

You could always put an e-nail on a dry pipe without water man. It really does not increase the lung energy required by much, depending on the percolator your rig has.

E-nails are the best for concentrates. I find that all of the pens have the same problem - cannot be fully cleaned easily and boil oil very slowly, or too quickly - both ways taste bad, too slow and the latter half to 2/3 of the hit tastes awful and overcooked, too quickly and you get big clouds but terrible taste from the start.

I only use pens for reclaim these days, and THC distillates with very little flavor to be worried about losing.

White ceramic is often porous and fills up with black overcooked oil, which also means it gets a burnt carbon taste behind your errl over time (some may not notice this so much, but compared to my sapphire e-nail, this is distractingly noticeable for me). None of the new coil-less pens are much better than the coil based ones (but they are somewhat better, coils really attract gunk even more).

The firefly 2 is probably the best portable oil consumption device ATM for flavor and efficiency, and that comes nowhere near the e-nail offerings available now. The Firefly 2 also sucks for battery life for concentrate use, and there aren't readily available external chargers to resolve this issue yet. Concentrate pads in some of the flower vapes out there tend to work better IME than most pens for longevity and overall quality of flavor.

Better still, desktop vapes with these kinds of concentrate pads are incredible and are as good as you are gonna find short of an e-nail (vapexnails on the evo are also similarly good to other desktop vapes with concentrate pads). The titanium tipped vapcap range (Omnivap, ti woody and ti glassy etc) are excellent for concentrates too, just sandwich your concentrate between a couple of adequately sized coils of SS wire.

In the end, IMO get an e-nail and be done with it. All of the portables require too many compromises IMO and if you aren't happy with your FF2 for concentrates, it is not necessarily going to get any better with other portables. If you don't wanna hit through water, use a dry pipe with your e-nail or get a nectar collector and use it dry.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

@sticky555E-nails are the best for concentrates. I find that all of the pens have the same problem -

I'm sorry to keep picking this issue with you, @herbi, but it seems obvious to me that you still haven't tried a good ceramic 510 atty on a proper temp control mod battery, yet. Not having tried using something like that, and then going on and saying "all pens have the same problem" is basing your views on an outdated, 2014-era set of facts that have changed drastically. Since you are prolific and articulate on these boards, and people listen to you, I think that is an avoidable dis-service to the vaporizer-question-asking public.

cannot be fully cleaned easily and boil oil very slowly, or too quickly - both ways taste bad,

A temp control mod on your ceramic (or coil-wire) 510 atty will allow your heater to warm up very quickly by setting a high-max wattage, which automatically (and instantaneously) modulates the watts lower when the coil reaches temp, avoiding the bad taste and burning that you refer to.

Not too slow, not too fast, the user can decide. I set my 10mm donuts at 28w and it takes about 2 seconds to reach billowing-vape cloud temperatures, and it tends to coast anywhere from 7-15w in the middle of the puff, but all I have to do is press and hold the button down once, and inhale.

Now, not all ceramic or 510 attys can be fully or easily cleaned, some more than others. the DT v3.0 attys that I favor can be fully dis-assembled and cleaned in entirety, and you can swap out the ceramic donut if it fails, no need to throw away a whole atty. It can also be cleaned pretty well without being taken apart.

This ability to completely rebuild may be too much of a hassle for you, but most people don't have much of a problem with it, including many disabled people. Your level of sanitary requirement may render this class of vapes impractical if you require 100% cleaning of all parts after every single puff, but if you think non-rebuildable crucible cup attys like the puffco+ allow you complete cleaning of the air-intake tracts, you will be let down in that area, even if you can wipe the cup clean more easily. I would like to see a crucible cup on a fully rebuildable 510 ceramic atty, but we don't have it quite yet, hopefully soon.

too slow and the latter half to 2/3 of the hit tastes awful and overcooked, too quickly and you get big clouds but terrible taste from the start.

Without temp control, on VW/VV mode, yes, overcooking and crappy taste seems inevitable with 'pens'. With TC, this phenomena is greatly reduced, if not nearly elminated?

Taste is subjective, of course, so maybe you still won't be satisfied with the 4th & 5th hit on a load on a temp controlled donut, (I don't mind those "reclaim" puffs they can taste pretty good) but combustion and carbonization are verifiable and quantifiable, and is easy to avoid with TC.

Even with TC and repeat use, you will still see some "reclaim" or gunk buildup, but it doesn't have to be tar or ash, and you don't really have to inhale it. You can continually cycle some of this undesirable oil to moderate (390-430F?) temps beyond the point where it yields much vapor, but I don't think it's changing much, at that point. It may just crust-over if the user stubbornly continues trying to vape it without reloading or cleaning.

It's like how I can fill up a fresh donut with oil and set temp control to 390*F, and press and hold the fire button down without puffing on it, and cycle this multiple times even. It will not burn the oil.

It will melt the oil into a puddle, releasing some flavor and terpenes in a modest wisp, and eventually get a little crusty if you continue to fire it with no user-draw on the mouthpiece. It may leak down into the base. But it will not combust.

If you do this on a VW or pen battery, you will combust your oil.

If you put a dab on your heated quartz or sapphire banger or Ti nail, without puffing on the rig, it will combust your oil.

(I feel like all e-nail / heated nail / banger dabbing has some combustion, actually)

This accurate and quick temp control, and being able to vape big clouds at sub-combustion temps really minimizes the gunk and over-cooking, and I feel you're really missing out and I hope you'll finally try something like it sometime soon, @herbi .

I only use pens for reclaim these days, and THC distillates with very little flavor to be worried about losing.

White ceramic is often porous and fills up with black overcooked oil, which also means it gets a burnt carbon taste behind your errl over time (some may not notice this so much, but compared to my sapphire e-nail, this is distractingly noticeable for me). None of the new coil-less pens are much better than the coil based ones (but they are somewhat better, coils really attract gunk even more).

Nearly all of the ceramic donut / crucible cup 510 attys that are popular use non-porous ceramics.

When I get a little crust on my donut, I just set temp to 200F, get my flat-edged dab tool, and scrape, it will be nearly all white after a quick swipe. Maybe repeat if desired. Others get similar results with cotton wads and swipes. You may have a little reclaim hiding under the donut, in the cup, but most people aren't bothered by that, and with reliable sub-combustion vaping temps, the residual reclaim need not be burned or contribute to bad taste. A full breakdown lets you get at the last bits of hidden oil, if needed.

I have tried vapes with porous ceramic, like the vaporesso cCell coils for RTAs, and they worked very well also, before they leaked out on me. There was hardly any degradation of taste and gunking up, not until I tried to vape the tank down dry to the last drop. Temp control on the mod helped with this problem, of course.

The firefly 2 is probably the best portable oil consumption device ATM for flavor and efficiency, and that comes nowhere near the e-nail offerings available now. The Firefly 2 also sucks for battery life for concentrate use, and there aren't readily available external chargers to resolve this issue yet. Concentrate pads in some of the flower vapes out there tend to work better IME than most pens for longevity and overall quality of flavor.

Better still, desktop vapes with these kinds of concentrate pads are incredible and are as good as you are gonna find short of an e-nail (vapexnails on the evo are also similarly good to other desktop vapes with concentrate pads). The titanium tipped vapcap range (Omnivap, ti woody and ti glassy etc) are excellent for concentrates too, just sandwich your concentrate between a couple of adequately sized coils of SS wire.

In the end, IMO get an e-nail and be done with it. All of the portables require too many compromises IMO and if you aren't happy with your FF2 for concentrates, it is not necessarily going to get any better with other portables. If you don't wanna hit through water, use a dry pipe with your e-nail or get a nectar collector and use it dry.

I think some portable herb vaporizers like the FF and the crafty can work reasonably well for concentrates, but that's not really what they are designed for, tends to be more of an afterthought to herbs.

In most cases, you'll still deal with longer warm-up times and lots of condensation build-up on the vapor path to the mouthpiece, although you should be rewarded with plenty of tasty, well temp-controlled vape

I've tried dabbing-grade concentrates on the davinci, ascent, and my volcano, and though it works, the excess condensation and inconvenience makes me not to want to use it for concentrates, especially now that I have donuts.

I still haven't tried dabbing on a sapphire banger, so I won't comment on how good it can taste, and I believe you about how it's the easiest to keep clean. But if you have to heat it to around 500-600F to get a big cloud out of it like any other conventional dabbing medium, I doubt that it will be that idiot-proof and easy to avoid combusting on. Maybe you can set a sapphire banger to ~430F and have it hit super-hard and not end up with a carbonated pool if you mess up your timing or take too big a dab. I don't think you can do that (can you?) and the price of sapphire bangers is still out of the reach of most vapers. (How many hundreds do one of those things cost again?? )

And plus, you need to have it hooked up to an AC wall outlet, or use a big-ol' torch to light it, not very portable or convenient. 510 nails, yes, somewhat portable, but I have no use for those when a small donut can fit and be operated in one hand and warm up in 2 seconds and give me repeat, huge, tasty clouds without reloading or having to burn it.

And I do connect my donuts to glass and dab rigs and hydratubes, for the biggest, coolest hits, the best of both worlds. Actually like 95% of my donut dabs are through water.

I really hope you might reconsider, @herbivore21. This rant is amiably-targeted at the general-FC'ing public, not just you in particular. Maybe @OF would come and agree with parts of my TC-rant if he glanced over it?

Try that puffco+ of yours on that Vtwo Mini you got. (did you?) You can use it on temp control mode, we've figured that out. I think you'll find the taste and vaping experience much better than what you've had before on a 'pen'.

 

[seaofgreens]

You make some interesting points. I haven't tried with the ceramic donuts since back when divine tribe was recommending the invader mini with the 2.5 donut. Got the exact problems @herbivore21 was discussing, and abandoned the whole idea. Might be time to consider it again.

Everytime I have used ceramic however, I quickly find it attains a pizza-stone type flavor in the background, which I really dislike. I find the reason I gravitated towards an e-nail instead was the ability to try out silicone carbide for a dabbing surface, which is theoretically supposed to avoid that problem and last a lifetime as well. Plus... the flavor...

Then there are of course the even costlier sapphire options as you mentioned. Super expensive, and don't have one or plans to have one soon, but the option is there, and it is supposedly glorious. That option doesn't even exist in pens. Yet.

I am glad that the temperature controlled ceramic dounts have come so far though. That is f'in awesome!

 

[invertedisdead]

I make pizza all the time, it doesn't absorb a cordierite flavor from the stone haha
I also just hit my v3, it doesn't taste like stone (or pizza ) just tasty concentrates.

 

[nosmoking]

Just speaking from experience with the DT 3 and the Puffco Plus. If @herbivore21 does not like the Puffco Plus enough to continue using it then he probably won't fall for the DT V3 either. I tried it, I even tried it modified but it left me desiring more so I ended up going back to the Puffco Plus. I find it is much more efficient, provides better flavor throughout the session as well as on first hit, and is also so much easier to clean and load. The big disadvantage to the Puffco Plus is that it is not rebuildable like the DT V3 so after a month or 3 or 4 you have to toss the atty and get a new one.

Still the experience of a concentrate pen is nothing compared to dabbing IME. It's like comparing flower to concentrates. Sure they will get you to the same place, but it will take much longer and many more inhales.

 

[invertedisdead]

Still the experience of a concentrate pen is nothing compared to dabbing IME. It's like comparing flower to concentrates. Sure they will get you to the same place, but it will take much longer and many more inhales.

I agree, that's why my next purchase is a SiC Halo. A pen is perfect for portable on the go convenience but I prefer the effect of a rig hit. Makes my concentrate last a lot longer too.

Your post makes me want to try the Puffco+
Does the flavor really last longer? My experience is no matter flower vs concentrate, or the load size, the terpenes are the first to vaporize and the more puffs I take the worse the flavor is. That's why I find a rig so tasty, you're getting the full package in one draw, so it's flavorful and hits hard. I'm almost wanting to try a Hercules but I don't know...

 

[nosmoking]

I think we are in a similar place...I am just waiting for a 420 sale and the D-Nail SiC Halo will be mine!

I still need a device for on the go that is convenient and effective for day use and travel use. The Puffco Plus is fitting the bill right now, but just barely.

If I keep the temp low I can keep the flavor from degrading too much too quick, but typically by the 4th hit I am losing flavor. I can take as many rips until the cup has so little wax/oil that it does not cover the entire floor of the cup and this is when the flavor will go from ok to bad instantly. It seems keeping the cup from going empty helps to keep the burnt flavor away, however overloading the cup will lead to whispier, less effective hits. It is the whole less is more thing. Three or four hits makes a great session, but if I overload and put like 6-8 hits then it really seems to lack flavor and effect compared to if I did two separate sessions.

I also want to try the Herc...but for $120 if I don't love it then I would be pissed for wasting as much money. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense tho in that I just spent $64 on a G9 pen that is going straight into the trash and I spent $200 on a Source Orb 4 signature kit back in October/November that is not getting used. I could have bought two Hercs already!

 

[invertedisdead]

I think we are in a similar place...I am just waiting for a 420 sale and the D-Nail SiC Halo will be mine!

I still need a device for on the go that is convenient and effective for day use and travel use. The Puffco Plus is fitting the bill right now, but just barely.

If I keep the temp low I can keep the flavor from degrading too much too quick, but typically by the 4th hit I am losing flavor. I can take as many rips until the cup has so little wax/oil that it does not cover the entire floor of the cup and this is when the flavor will go from ok to bad instantly. It seems keeping the cup from going empty helps to keep the burnt flavor away, however overloading the cup will lead to whispier, less effective hits. It is the whole less is more thing. Three or four hits makes a great session, but if I overload and put like 6-8 hits then it really seems to lack flavor and effect compared to if I did two separate sessions.

I also want to try the Herc...but for $120 if I don't love it then I would be pissed for wasting as much money. This doesn't make a whole lot of sense tho in that I just spent $64 on a G9 pen that is going straight into the trash and I spent $200 on a Source Orb 4 signature kit back in October/November that is not getting used. I could have bought two Hercs already!

I had a Source Orb 3 so I know your pain. I want to try one of these HTFSE prefilled carts. Never really having to reload is great, which is nice about the Herc; but the downside to me is not really being able to change strains with the Herc since it needs so much saturation to work. I'm curious how it hits compared to a rig, but it doesn't seem very friendly for others to try so I'm still unsure about it. They are $85 now which isn't bad, kinda tempting. I saw one for sale in the classifieds here with a tesla stealth mod and it was pretty discreet in that setup.

 

[seaofgreens]

@invertedisdead

I meant how a pizza stone itself starts to smell after being baked a few times. I never find the stone itself bakes the flavor into the pizza, but it retains a scent in the stone that I personally find unpleasant, and I get the same sort of vibe off any ceramic nail I have used before.

 

[sticky555]

Oh lotsa replies and interesting discussion going on I purchased the saionara I think it comes with several coils but im most likely gonna use the miracle b which supposedly works well with small amounts it's a ceramic coil. I was gonna pick up the Dtv3 but I read good things about the saionara as well so idk. I also was looking at the herc and apparently it supposed to last forever which is interesting I always hated atomizers and coils and all that. I'd rather pay more upfront vs paying for a bunch of coils ya know? I don't mind cleaning at all. I'll update when it gets here and I try it out. Appreciate the responses guys!

 

[herbivore21]

If you put a dab on your heated quartz or sapphire banger or Ti nail, without puffing on the rig, it will combust your oil.

You have clearly never used an e-nail man. You also misunderstand and conflate the temp on the dial of an e-nail controller with the temp on the dish. This is a common mistake, but a large one. The temp at dish depending on the substance used can be hundreds of degrees lower than what is on the dial!

Also what temps do you think will combust oil exactly? Are you aware that oils can be subjected to higher temps than flowers since the compounds that are especially prone to combustion (lots of dry solid plant materials for example) have been left in the flower? Are you aware that the boiling points and thermal decomposition thresholds for essential oils will vary according to the phenotype, chemotype, variety, extraction method, storage and handling of the starting flower/trim and subsequent extract?

Do you understand how combustion is defined when we consider a liquid, like an essential oil vs a solid like flower? Are you aware that the flash points of the various compounds in an essential oil extract must be exceeded by the temps surrounding the vapor in order for the vapor to combust (it is actually the boiling vapor that combusts when a liquid compound is combusted, not the liquid itself)? If we combusted the vapor, there would generally be a visible flame above the nail! Have you looked into the complex relationships between mixtures of many compounds and the corresponding overall flash point of the mixture? Mounting a conclusive argument that oil; a liquid, is combusting on a nail requires a lot more information than you have provided brother!

I'm sorry to keep picking this issue with you, @herbi, but it seems obvious to me that you still haven't tried a good ceramic 510 atty on a proper temp control mod battery, yet. Not having tried using something like that, and then going on and saying "all pens have the same problem" is basing your views on an outdated, 2014-era set of facts that have changed drastically. Since you are prolific and articulate on these boards, and people listen to you, I think that is an avoidable dis-service to the vaporizer-question-asking public.

I appreciate your concerns man, but they are unfounded and unnecessary. I have extensively used a number of all ceramic carts now (a few donuts, not the latest V3 DT admittedly and the puffco+ of course). I have used every coil and rod variation imaginable and these are all universally inferior to enails, as others above also confirm.

Temp control improves this factor, but does not at all eliminate it.

A SiC or Sapphire enail leaves all pens in the dust. Even the best pens. Even the pens that have improved substantially past most of the competition (like the Puffco+ and some of the other all-ceramic designs).

White ceramic is a shitty substance to clean and over time does build up a hot stone with an overbaked layer of oil residue smell over time with use. Old nail designs that required seasoning could get this same problem with use but e-nails with next-gen materials simply don't have this problem anymore.

Everytime I have used ceramic however, I quickly find it attains a pizza-stone type flavor in the background

This. This is profoundly distracting with high terp solventless concentrates and really takes away from the experience.

With an e-nail, my Sapphire and SiC nails qtip clean as new after every dab in the way that I use them. This is simply IMPOSSIBLE with white ceramic, and white ceramic solutions have never overcome this limitation for me yet. Cleaning them even in the way you describe is just much, much more time consuming than cleaning sapphire or SiC.

Temp control does assist in mitigating the issues I mentioned. Nonetheless, white ceramic all ceramic pens on offer currently simply taste inferior later in the bowl than the next gen e-nails I mention. Others above have noted this before I even had a chance to respond to your post.

I've tried dabbing-grade concentrates on the davinci, ascent, and my volcano

You'll note that I do not recommend any of these units personally for concentrate use. The Davinci and Ascent have enough trouble vaping flower well IME, how are they going to produce meaningful clouds with concentrates?

But if you have to heat it to around 500-600F to get a big cloud out of it like any other conventional dabbing medium, I doubt that it will be that idiot-proof and easy to avoid combusting on. Maybe you can set a sapphire banger to ~430F and have it hit super-hard and not end up with a carbonated pool if you mess up your timing or take too big a dab. I don't think you can do that (can you?) and the price of sapphire bangers is still out of the reach of most vapers. (How many hundreds do one of those things cost again?? )

See above, you've misunderstood the temp reading on e-nails here and once you realize this mistake, you'll understand what is wrong with your claims about combustion.

And plus, you need to have it hooked up to an AC wall outlet, or use a big-ol' torch to light it, not very portable or convenient. 510 nails, yes, somewhat portable, but I have no use for those when a small donut can fit and be operated in one hand and warm up in 2 seconds and give me repeat, huge, tasty clouds without reloading or having to burn it.

E-nails are much more convenient bro. Even torch dabbing is IMO. Even when comparing to all ceramic pens, I can consume more than I could ever even load into those pens in one rapid, instant hit on any kind of nail. The coil and AC wall plug in is a negligible trade-off and limitation vs the time I save not having to huff on a single dab for a session to finish it! I am too busy to spend so long to dose my meds. This is my medicine. I use it to function and work, not to kill time!

I really hope you might reconsider, @herbivore21. This rant is amiably-targeted at the general-FC'ing public, not just you in particular. Maybe @OF would come and agree with parts of my TC-rant if he glanced over it?

In light of my refutations of your concerns, I hope that you might reconsider

Given that you have misunderstood the nature of e-nail temps and not personally used the products I describe as superior, you might appreciate why I am confused that you would ask me to reconsider products that I have used and my judgement that they are inferior? I do not mean to pick on you either here man, I just needed to point out that I am speaking from experience here and it is not controversial among any of those who have used SiC and Sapphire enails that they are better than the very best pens currently on offer.

I appreciate your time to outline what you've said though, because it is better to discuss these topics so that people understand the nuances behind our views I may disagree with your claims, but I appreciate your input as an interlocutor.

 

[invertedisdead]

@herbivore21 Have you ever hit a Hercules?

 

[herbivore21]

@herbivore21 Have you ever hit a Hercules?

Yes, this was actually one of the first pens I tried. I've used the SR74 and SR74x. I hate how finicky the centre pin connection gets with repeated assembly/disassembly and the buffer load is simply odious when you dab concentrates as expensive and low-yielding as I do. Otherwise, flavor and clouds are epic with the right power supply/battery/mod.

Hell, due to the flavor deterioration, I only use pens for RECLAIM! That is the extent to which I find flavor inferior on even the best pens.

 

[PPN]

If there was a sort of auto-cleaning function you can use between every load and the portable concentrates pens would be amazing cause I think taste is pretty nice even with the cheap evolve dual quartz rod when brand news although taste declines very quickly after 3-4 loads. I like the V3 and i think too that's one of the tastier concentrate atty avalaible used with low temp control. I love my Hercules also, taste could be slightly compromised when not cleaned enough butit medicates very hard.

Actually ilike a lot to use my MiVape, Ilite (sort of Vaponic clone better designed for concentrates) and Mistvape Touch for convection and portable vaporization of my concentrates (I just get a good slab of bho from a trade with friend, my Vista+2 Evolve wax pen+Evolve-D for a nice 3.5g bho slab! and a good amount of Kief's rosin).

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

You make some interesting points. I haven't tried with the ceramic donuts since back when divine tribe was recommending the invader mini with the 2.5 donut. Got the exact problems @herbivore21 was discussing, and abandoned the whole idea. Might be time to consider it again.

Everytime I have used ceramic however, I quickly find it attains a pizza-stone type flavor in the background, which I really dislike. I find the reason I gravitated towards an e-nail instead was the ability to try out silicone carbide for a dabbing surface, which is theoretically supposed to avoid that problem and last a lifetime as well. Plus... the flavor...

Then there are of course the even costlier sapphire options as you mentioned. Super expensive, and don't have one or plans to have one soon, but the option is there, and it is supposedly glorious. That option doesn't even exist in pens. Yet.

I am glad that the temperature controlled ceramic dounts have come so far though. That is f'in awesome!

I know exactly what you mean by that pizza-stone type flavor. That is the inevitable result of repeated use. If your concentrates has more "plant-gunk" impurities (isn't de-waxed / winterized) and if you vape it at higher or less stable temps, that dark crust will build up quicker.

I remember the invader mini also, that was a 1st-gen temp control mod, and wasn't particularly well suited to the DT's nichrome and ceramic donuts, it only had Ni and Ti mode, IIRC, but you would be able to get some sort of useful temp control with donuts still?

Maybe this resulted in the donut getting crusted up more easily? Like the crappy eleaf istick 40w TC mods I used for a while, although it did claim TC with only Ni mode, it would routinely burn up your oil and char your donut, no matter how low the temp you set, because it had a slow chipset fixed at 40w which would "overshoot" temps by alot, all the time.

The newer generation of temp control mods are much swifter and more precise, and donut crusting can be avoided and delayed until after many sessions and loads now.

But it still will build up, and if you don't swab it or scrape it away, no problem, you can just burn it off!

Depends on which atty or coil resistance you have, usually setting VW to 10-15w or so and simply holding the button down for many seconds will burn off all that crust and any reclaim oil hiding underneath in the cup. Just do this for a few seconds and your donut will be pearly white again! And you can re-swab with alcohol to get the last bits of reclaim.

I don't mean to belittle if you already know this, but amazingly, alot of people vaping on donuts have no idea they can do this! My friends have asked me how to clean the donut to be white, and I tell them, and show them the videos, but they still don't do it! Most people are very casual and sloppy with their "vape pens"

I make pizza all the time, it doesn't absorb a cordierite flavor from the stone haha
I also just hit my v3, it doesn't taste like stone (or pizza ) just tasty concentrates.

@invertedisdead

I meant how a pizza stone itself starts to smell after being baked a few times. I never find the stone itself bakes the flavor into the pizza, but it retains a scent in the stone that I personally find unpleasant, and I get the same sort of vibe off any ceramic nail I have used before.

Haha, take it from this guy. Baking pizzas for a a living over there in agrabah? (where?) You probably know that baking stone smell/taste better than us. (I use a ceramic stone to bake pizzas at home too)

I bet you keep your donut reasonably clean to give you that great taste experience

Just speaking from experience with the DT 3 and the Puffco Plus. If @herbivore21 does not like the Puffco Plus enough to continue using it then he probably won't fall for the DT V3 either. I tried it, I even tried it modified but it left me desiring more so I ended up going back to the Puffco Plus. I find it is much more efficient, provides better flavor throughout the session as well as on first hit, and is also so much easier to clean and load. The big disadvantage to the Puffco Plus is that it is not rebuildable like the DT V3 so after a month or 3 or 4 you have to toss the atty and get a new one.

Yes, but at least it seems he finally tried his puffco on a properly set TC mod and agrees that improves the flavor and experience to some extent?

I did see your experiment installing the ceramic crucible into the DT V3 rebuildable base, that looked pretty cool (although it looked like it was caked in "pizza grease" when you installed it not good for taste)

All you did was drop that on us, tell Matt to hurry up and make a crucible cup insert for the V3 (chop chop!) and then didn't offer any further updates If you like the puffco for the flat bottom, easy to maintain cup, I'm wondering why you didn't like the source terra crucible in the V3. I would think it would vape similar to the puffco, and allow you to clean it more thoroughly and easily?

Your post makes me want to try the Puffco+
Does the flavor really last longer? My experience is no matter flower vs concentrate, or the load size, the terpenes are the first to vaporize and the more puffs I take the worse the flavor is. That's why I find a rig so tasty, you're getting the full package in one draw, so it's flavorful and hits hard. I'm almost wanting to try a Hercules but I don't know...

Yes, I notice the same thing, no matter what kind of vape or material I use. The tastiest stuff tends to vape first, at the lowest temps. At least with temp control I find the terpene-deprived later reclaim hits to be taste "neutral" but not bad tasting (subjective)

Oh lotsa replies and interesting discussion going on I purchased the saionara I think it comes with several coils but im most likely gonna use the miracle b which supposedly works well with small amounts it's a ceramic coil. I was gonna pick up the Dtv3 but I read good things about the saionara as well so idk. I also was looking at the herc and apparently it supposed to last forever which is interesting I always hated atomizers and coils and all that. I'd rather pay more upfront vs paying for a bunch of coils ya know? I don't mind cleaning at all. I'll update when it gets here and I try it out. Appreciate the responses guys!

Hey, the saionara doesn't get much recognition around here at FC, it seems to be more popular with the reddit crowd, FWIW. Matt from DT tells me the sai outsells his gear multiple times over, it must be popular.

I tried the sai when it first came out, but as a self-described low-temp control flavor snob, I wasn't really happy at all with the first set of coils. Kanthal just combusts through wax at a massive rate, poor taste, didn't like. The first Ni200 coil for TC was so small and meager it hardly made any vape.

Now the miracle B seemed promising, with the ceramic, but it actually turns out it has the wire leads for the heater exposed inside the ceramic, so your oil can and will touch the metal wire (bad taste) and also for some reason, HVT doesn't want you to TC the miracle B. So i just got burny, crappy tasting vape, another fail for me.

Finally, more recently, HVT released a black-ceramic rod wrapped with an SS coil (for TC!) and I tried that, and I actually thought it was ok....Not bad. Only needs 12w, and went up to around 430-450F in TC-SS and it made pretty decent clouds, that tasted ok at first. But the taste declined pretty quick as it got reclaimed up, I don't know how/if you can clean this atty, and I think the oil partially touching a metal rod makes the taste suffer some.

It just made for an amusing distraction for a few days, and collects dust once more. At sub-combustion temps, the sai attys just can't match the flavor and cloud size of my DT donuts. Don't get me wrong, the sai is still a nice, rugged, simple, easy-to-use atty. I would love to see a ceramic donut or crucible cup atty for the sai. But just because I don't like it so much doesn't mean that hundreds or thousands of others sai vapers aren't loving theirs.

 

[herbivore21]

I know exactly what you mean by that pizza-stone type flavor. That is the inevitable result of repeated use. If your concentrates has more "plant-gunk" impurities (isn't de-waxed / winterized) and if you vape it at higher or less stable temps, that dark crust will build up quicker.

Man, nobody is winterizing their rosin. This hot stone flavor happens with the highest end rosins. Do you understand why people might not want to compromise the terps in their rosin just to make it work in a pen when it'll be more enjoyable as-is on an e-nail?

This pizza stone flavor happens even more quickly with full melt in all ceramic pens. Why on earth would I go and process that until it is terpless for pen use when I could dab it on sapphire or SiC and have some of the tastiest, most terp-rich hits known to man and also use the material much more efficiently and not want to waste the end of it?

The cleanest, highest quality solventless concentrates will gunk up white ceramic at low temps over the course of a bowl. The only way to clean this, you address in the next comment: This is not without major comparative shortcomings.

But it still will build up, and if you don't swab it or scrape it away, no problem, you can just burn it off!

Yes, but this is a major battery drain, and much, much slower to achieve than heat cleaning of a SiC or Sapphire e-nail. It has to be done after every dab if you want your pen as clean to dab on as your e-nail will be after every dab and qtip.

Also e-nails do not need to be heat cleaned like this because they actually stay clean from qtipping at dabbing temp - especially if you are using full melt which cannot be used on all ceramic pens due to rapid and unacceptable flavor loss during use. The components that I need to clean the most in my rig are in the rig itself, my nail dish never stays dirty after qtipping, but the titanium base does with time. Still, these parts are much quicker to clean cumulatively than any of my pens.

Yes, I notice the same thing, no matter what kind of vape or material I use. The tastiest stuff tends to vape first, at the lowest temps. At least with temp control I find the terpene-deprived later reclaim hits to be taste "neutral" but not bad tasting (subjective)

When folks use SiC and Sapphire and compare the flavor of the whole hit (which is finished much more quickly than the same sized hit on an all-ceramic pen) to the flavor of the whole hit on any all ceramic pen: everybody here who has done so agrees that the end of the dab on the next gen e-nail materials tastes nearly as great as the start - not tasteless - as opposed to the tasteless and then increasingly bad tasting hits that you get for a long time before the bowl finishes vaporizing in an all-ceramic pen.

This is my point: The all ceramic pens are better than the pen models that came before hand, and temp control makes it noticeably better. However, dabbing is still incomparably tastier and more efficient when you use a SiC or Sapphire e-nail.

At sub-combustion temps, the sai attys just can't match the flavor and cloud size of my DT donuts.

Have you seen my post above defining combustion as it relates to liquids, even viscous and dense ones like essential oil extracts? What temp do you propose is leading to this reaction in the pen? What is the ignition source that can cause a combustion reaction and what is the flash point of the oil? At what temp is the flash point being exceeded?

If you are proposing that autoignition of the vapors is taking place (ie: combustion in the absence of the source of ignition), obviously, you are proposing that even higher temps are present, surrounding the boiled essential oil vapors sufficient to cause autoignition which must be even higher than the flash point of those vapors if an ignition source is present.

Crucially - where is the ignition? Did you see a spark or flame at any point?

As I have said in my post above, you need to first demonstrate that you have ever witnessed actual combustion as defined above in a pen before suggesting that it has happened.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

brace yourself for un-readable multi 10k character essays...

You have clearly never used an e-nail man. You also misunderstand and conflate the temp on the dial of an e-nail controller with the temp on the dish. This is a common mistake, but a large one. The temp at dish depending on the substance used can be hundreds of degrees lower than what is on the dial!

I can't help but detect a hint of a condescending tone in your posts, man. You assume I know very little. I may not be a chemist, biologist, engineer or physicist, or utilize the most proper terminology, but I make an effort to find as much info that is relevant to my vaping interests, time permitting.

I do have a basic grasp of thermodynamics; I'm not so ignorant as to believe that if you set your e-nail temp to 600F, that it necessarily makes your nail or banger uniformly match that temperature, let alone your dabbing oil (cmon)

From my experience, I have to set e-nails to MUCH higher temps than I would use to vape oils on other vapes. Even if the banger and dabbing oil will be much cooler than the metal coil on the nail, this heat-transfer equation is still rather murky and imprecise unless you're measuring it with precise instruments (who does that?)

One reason I think I like vaping with donuts, is with their relatively small mass and quick warm-up time, with the concentrate already loaded and contacting the heater, much more of the heat energy goes directly into melting and vaping the oil rather than heating up masses that don't directly heat your oil. The melting oil almost acts as an extra insulator that the TC mod can detect and react to, on-the-fly. The heat transfer is more efficient and with a smaller temp differential between the ceramic and your oil so that you don't have to heat anything up hundreds of degrees hotter than you intend to heat your concentrates

@herbi , do you know how hot your sapphire banger is when you warm it up and let it settle? And how hot does it make your dab and vapor off that piece?

One time I was messing with my e-nail and quartz banger, trying to get any sort of meaningful cloud, and I couldn't get much below 560-600F. I contacted my Ti tool with a small dab on the quartz and swirled it around and held it longer than usual (got a carbonized pool as usual) and at of the corner of my eye, i was surprised (impressed almost) that the controller unit for the e-nail actually recognized the cooling load on the banger, and the # on the display dipped momentarily, from 560 to about 520 or so for just a few seconds. This didn't happen until many seconds after the dab. I recall this to illustrate the point that the heat-transfer is much less responsive and less calibrated on most people's e-nail / torch rig setups as opposed to TC-mod controlled ceramics, which don't have to heat up to such high temps and can respond to vaping loads much more swiftly.

Also what temps do you think will combust oil exactly? Are you aware that oils can be subjected to higher temps than flowers since the compounds that are especially prone to combustion (lots of dry solid plant materials for example) have been left in the flower? Are you aware that the boiling points and thermal decomposition thresholds for essential oils will vary according to the phenotype, chemotype, variety, extraction method, storage and handling of the starting flower/trim and subsequent extract?

Do you understand how combustion is defined when we consider a liquid, like an essential oil vs a solid like flower? Are you aware that the flash points of the various compounds in an essential oil extract must be exceeded by the temps surrounding the vapor in order for the vapor to combust (it is actually the boiling vapor that combusts when a liquid compound is combusted, not the liquid itself)? If we combusted the vapor, there would generally be a visible flame above the nail! Have you looked into the complex relationships between mixtures of many compounds and the corresponding overall flash point of the mixture? Mounting a conclusive argument that oil; a liquid, is combusting on a nail requires a lot more information than you have provided brother!

I don't really know what temps oils combust at, it varies with so many factors, some of which you mentioned. I know that these oils can have complex, azeotropic properties, and you can selectively vape (distill?) certain desired compounds depending on temperatures, but not reliably. I know from cooking with various vegetable oils, making stir-frys, that the "smoke-points" can be as low as 350-375F, and not really higher than 500F at the high end of refined, high-heat oils. Minus the desirable stuff in concentrates, short of the 99% pure cyrstallines and distillates, isn't the remaining gunk in our concentrate a kind of "cannabis fatty oil?" A gylceride of some kind? (this is part of the "reclaim" puzzle I've been trying to figure out) I would rather leave that fatty crap as reclaim on my donut rather than inhale (smoke) it.

But I know the results when I see it. I may have erred in using the term "combust" if that requires there to be a visible flame. Perhaps the poor results of a e-nail / torch rig that I am referring to is more of a pyrolysis (charring) but that makes it no more healthy or desireable to me.

I appreciate your concerns man, but they are unfounded and unnecessary. I have extensively used a number of all ceramic carts now (a few donuts, not the latest V3 DT admittedly and the puffco+ of course). I have used every coil and rod variation imaginable and these are all universally inferior to enails, as others above also confirm.

Temp control improves this factor, but does not at all eliminate it.

A SiC or Sapphire enail leaves all pens in the dust. Even the best pens. Even the pens that have improved substantially past most of the competition (like the Puffco+ and some of the other all-ceramic designs).

White ceramic is a shitty substance to clean and over time does build up a hot stone with an overbaked layer of oil residue smell over time with use. Old nail designs that required seasoning could get this same problem with use but e-nails with next-gen materials simply don't have this problem anymore.

This. This is profoundly distracting with high terp solventless concentrates and really takes away from the experience.

With an e-nail, my Sapphire and SiC nails qtip clean as new after every dab in the way that I use them. This is simply IMPOSSIBLE with white ceramic, and white ceramic solutions have never overcome this limitation for me yet. Cleaning them even in the way you describe is just much, much more time consuming than cleaning sapphire or SiC.

Temp control does assist in mitigating the issues I mentioned. Nonetheless, white ceramic all ceramic pens on offer currently simply taste inferior later in the bowl than the next gen e-nails I mention. Others above have noted this before I even had a chance to respond to your post.

Well, at least you have used the puffco+ on temp control mode at least once, and will admit it improves the performance to some extent? I wasn't giving you credit for that.

I don't know what to say about the rest, except maybe that your requirements for frequency and convenience of cleaning for your portable devices is much stricter than any other user I've come across except maybe @fernand, and he gets by cleaning his donuts ok. And if you aren't able to remove that "overbaked smelly" layer, then I think you aren't cleaning it right. I have donuts that I have vaped multiple grams on, and after I burn it clean, it does take a slight broken-in appearance, but absolutely no smell or taste!

I don't burn my donut clean after every use, and I'm not bothered by a few specs of reclaim oil on the cup if I only have to heat it to around 400F, it doesn't seem to change much when cycled at those low temps. I think your much higher standards may be mis-representing how good ceramic 510 vapes can be, and may be deterring others who would otherwise be very happy with portable vapes like these?

You'll note that I do not recommend any of these units personally for concentrate use. The Davinci and Ascent have enough trouble vaping flower well IME, how are they going to produce meaningful clouds with concentrates?

But you recommend the FF2 for concentrates as a portable over TC'd 510 ceramic vapes? I would think a good TC mod with a ceramic donut or crucible would match or exceed vape output and flavor with BHOs over a FF2, and would far exceed it in warm-up and battery time, and low cost.

I don't doubt that you and many other people love their e-nail rigs and that it works for you, and I don't doubt the sapphire bangers are super-easy to clean with a a swab after each use, but are you going to use your e-nail and dab rig while driving your car, or during a hike, or at a concert? You can use a 510 ceramic atty in tons of places you can't dab with a rig, and get great results still, which I don't think you're recognizing.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

See above, you've misunderstood the temp reading on e-nails here and once you realize this mistake, you'll understand what is wrong with your claims about combustion.


E-nails are much more convenient bro. Even torch dabbing is IMO. Even when comparing to all ceramic pens, I can consume more than I could ever even load into those pens in one rapid, instant hit on any kind of nail. The coil and AC wall plug in is a negligible trade-off and limitation vs the time I save not having to huff on a single dab for a session to finish it! I am too busy to spend so long to dose my meds. This is my medicine. I use it to function and work, not to kill time!


In light of my refutations of your concerns, I hope that you might reconsider

Given that you have misunderstood the nature of e-nail temps and not personally used the products I describe as superior, you might appreciate why I am confused that you would ask me to reconsider products that I have used and my judgement that they are inferior? I do not mean to pick on you either here man, I just needed to point out that I am speaking from experience here and it is not controversial among any of those who have used SiC and Sapphire enails that they are better than the very best pens currently on offer.

I appreciate your time to outline what you've said though, because it is better to discuss these topics so that people understand the nuances behind our views I may disagree with your claims, but I appreciate your input as an interlocutor.

I'm reading what you're saying closely, and I'm considering. I hope you reciprocate, and what is not understood can be cleared up. It's not just about you and me, but about helping everyone make good vape choices. Credit to anyone who reads these long posts. I'm not trying to refute or discredit nails and bangers in entirety, (not even close) but simply trying to stick up for the merits of other portables.

But to give context and more info on why I love ceramic donut dabbing, can I provide some background?

I have indeed dabbed on e-nails, bangers, and torched nails many, many times. Probably a small fraction as many times as @herbivore21, @invertedisdead, or any dab veteran, but enough times. That is how I first dabbed / vaped BHO concentrates for the first several times. (free "dab bar" at the club )

When I first dabbed, (around 4 years ago?) I was over 2 years into not combusting, only vaping. Years of foolishly smoking too many J's and blunts had made my nasal allergies much worse and I had developed sinus disease. Then and now, I am extremely sensitive to smoke (there can be smoke without "fire") and it doesn't even take much secondhand smoke to send me into an asthmatic, suffocating fit So directly inhaling hot, smokey "vapor" is not a good idea for me

The first time that (over-loaded, wasted) dab tool hit that torched Ti nail for me, I got a huge, chest-busting cloud that felt like the closest thing to smoking I'd felt in over 2 years. The first fraction of the cloud felt tasty and vapey, but it quickly degenerated in a molten, dark, carbonized, ashy pool. A carb cap was lacking, but it wouldn't have made much difference at that point.

I had to cough up big, felt light headed, and sit down (not good) but I DID get stoned as fuck So it wasn't all bad I guess. I tried house dabs at the club many times after that, but never had much more success in getting smoother dabs, always a nasty pool. The ideal of vaping by sublimation always seemed like an unreachable, distant, fractional, theoretical thing to chase after, with alot of margin for error. I would see other people dab and puff with greater skill and coordination than I could, but I couldn't help think that their bodies weren't as respiratorily compromised like mine.

I finally tried various "vape pens" and they were ok for me for a while, but I quickly grew disgusted with the fouling, reclaiming, burning, and inability / difficulty of cleaning early generation dab/vape pens, as @herbivore21 alluded to earlier. The wick/wire or rod/wire atomizers are what I'm talking about, but around late 2014 - early 2015, the first generation of ceramic donut attys hit the market (thanks DT ) and this kind of saved dabbing for me, and this was followed soon after with temp control mods hitting the market, and this just made them perform so much better.

I did end up getting an e-nail later to play around with, and tried Ti nails (tasted poor, hard to clean) and quartz bangers. Quartz tasted better, but still left me with a carbon pool after every dab, and gave me hot, harsh, smokey "vape" after every puff, at any temperature that seemed to make any cloud (not much below 550F) It also seemed to require a much bigger dab, like 80-100mg at least, to get anything, while I could load 3 or 4 donuts and get dozens of puffs with a similar amount, by comparison.

Being too long, what I'm trying to say here is: e-nail dabbing is HOT, and harsh. It is much more difficult to precisely control your vape temp and avoid pyrolysis (not combustion, ok?) and for the velvet-lunged like myself, it's simply not a viable option. I can vape TC'd donuts all day, even without water, but adding water makes it so much more fun.

I only need to use small amounts at a time, so that's great for me. If you need to medicate large amounts and vape big dabs all at once in one puff and your chest can take it, I won't dipsute that an e-nail is a good choice for you... at home.

Lastly, I must add, I'm a stoner, and I can get clumsy at times. I'm not really comfortable having a large, heated metal slab sitting on my desk. If I had e-nail dabbed nearly as much as I've donut dabbed, I'm pretty sure I would have hurt myself, burned myself, or started fires in my house (carpet) but I don't have to worry about that with a donut

 

[looney2nz]

I love this stuff

OK, so... #1, as someone who uses DTv3 and TC MOD daily, I'd REALLY like to see a 'clean' setting on the damn MOD BOX. Something utterly mindless that you can switch in and out of (mode-wise) easily without disrupting your 'normal' settings.
I don't clean it to the level of Herbivore, but I break it down and clean it in ISO regularly, and even with my limitations, it's pretty easy.
A 'burn it clean' setting/button combo would make in between cleaning easier (I've got 4 batteries in rotation, will probably add a couple more, that should be fine for general use AND cleaning).
I think the combo of burning/soaking should suffice for the life of the donut (most of mine fail on the lead due to the compression contact screw, a failure point that should be redesigned). Vape Donkey, we should check the developer info on gitHub and see if this something they can add or perhaps fork the source for that new controller software and have someone else add it?

#2. So I'm gathering that all e-nail stuff is desktop? No one is doing this in a portable format?

I endured those stupid little concentrate pens with the cartridges... YIKES!
Never EVER again.

I've been using the DTv3 and Joyetech Evic VTwin Mini mod-box more than my Herbalaire recently, simply due to it's size and portability (not that it doesn't perform incredibly well). But I'll be firing up the Herbie this weekend for sure, I've accumulated a number of Qtips with many varieties of CO2 oil

 

[herbivore21]

I can't help but detect a hint of a condescending tone in your posts, man. You assume I know very little. I may not be a chemist, biologist, engineer or physicist, or utilize the most proper terminology, but I make an effort to find as much info that is relevant to my vaping interests, time permitting.

I do have a basic grasp of thermodynamics; I'm not so ignorant as to believe that if you set your e-nail temp to 600F, that it necessarily makes your nail or banger uniformly match that temperature, let alone your dabbing oil (cmon)

You have inferred that I was condescending, but then this tract ends with you directing an eye-roll emote at me. That is definitely not the best way to approach somebody before they have had a chance to clarify if they were being nasty or not.

It is not ignorant for you not to fully be across thermodynamics man, like you said, we aren't all scientists and I don't expect you to be! That would be very unreasonable, I agree

I was simply saying that you were calling something combustion when it is not. I was right. You've accepted that in your last post. That is no problem - we're on the same page now

I was very clear in my above post (as you have quoted later) that I am not meaning to pick on you, but that I simply don't get why you cannot accept that all of us who have used the current generation of e-nail technology - let me be explicit; SiC and Sapphire nails, not titanium, not quartz bangers - find this current gen of e-nails incomparably tastier as a low temp concentrate vaping experience (by the way, my tone here is for emphasis and explicit delineation of what I am talking about, not condescension). I do not rate titanium and quartz in the same way that I do not recommend ceramic pens. I prefer white ceramic to titanium and most quartz actually!

You continue in your most recent posts to speak as if we are talking about titanium nails. We are not. We are speaking about the SiC and Sapphire that we e-nail enthusiasts prefer these days. I have never, ever recommended a titanium only e-nail on FC (unless it had a ceramic or more recently sapphire insert!). I do not recommend quartz and have spent the last year or more calling these last-gen e-nails.

I recommended white ceramic for a time in e-nails over a lot of quartz offerings out there for a time, but SiC and Sapphire blew it out of the water in every way.

From my experience, I have to set e-nails to MUCH higher temps than I would use to vape oils on other vapes. Even if the banger and dabbing oil will be much cooler than the metal coil on the nail, this heat-transfer equation is still rather murky and imprecise unless you're measuring it with precise instruments (who does that?)

You'd be surprised man.

Here's an overview that I've provided here in a number of other threads over the last year or so:

Here's a temperature analysis for the SiC Halo (coincidentally, the nail I'm dabbing my rosin on right now, I actually prefer SiC to sapphire for rosin in some cases). Variations in tolerance can influence these heat properties to a very minor extent (especially thanks to QC from the good folks at d-nail). I tend to run my SiC halo at 520f or so. That is around 460f when the temp is measured at the dish itself. We're in the ballpark of flower vaping temps when you look at it that way.

Now consider that the dry plant material from the flowers which is most prone to autoignition and a self-perpetuating cycle of increasing heat is left behind when we extract and so we have additional heat that can be applied before we risk even overcooking the oil, let alone combusting anything.

I hope this makes what I have been saying about nail temps much clearer. Your comparisons to titanium enails are understandable, they are nasty. They have a hot, harsh feel and tend to require higher temps than SiC to operate, as you say. However, titanium e-nails were current tek at least 4 years ago now. We're long since moved on to tastier, more efficient things.

One time I was messing with my e-nail and quartz banger, trying to get any sort of meaningful cloud, and I couldn't get much below 560-600F. I contacted my Ti tool with a small dab on the quartz and swirled it around and held it longer than usual (got a carbonized pool as usual) and at of the corner of my eye, i was surprised (impressed almost) that the controller unit for the e-nail actually recognized the cooling load on the banger, and the # on the display dipped momentarily, from 560 to about 520 or so for just a few seconds. This didn't happen until many seconds after the dab. I recall this to illustrate the point that the heat-transfer is much less responsive and less calibrated on most people's e-nail / torch rig setups as opposed to TC-mod controlled ceramics, which don't have to heat up to such high temps and can respond to vaping loads much more swiftly.

You very rightly identify the pooling problem with quartz (and I agree with your point about temp control, I'm just saying that new materials make an even bigger difference to performance than accurate temp control!), which is a very large part of why quartz is inferior to sapphire and SiC, which do not pool like quartz in e-nail use and allow for much, much lower temps to be used with full vaporization and no pooling/waste to taste.

I don't really know what temps oils combust at, it varies with so many factors, some of which you mentioned.

I should have been clearer, my point was that these temps (the flash point and autoignition point more specifically) will vary based on the properties of the various concentrates that we are considering. You can't presume to know of a single temp that will 'combust concentrates' because 'concentrates' vary very widely.

I have produced all of the different kinds of concentrates imaginable and the different mass and volume across different materials is astounding, before we even start comparing thermal characteristics (many of which are not yet documented for specific concentrates, I am sure).

I don't know what to say about the rest, except maybe that your requirements for frequency and convenience of cleaning for your portable devices is much stricter than any other user I've come across except maybe @fernand, and he gets by cleaning his donuts ok. And if you aren't able to remove that "overbaked smelly" layer, then I think you aren't cleaning it right. I have donuts that I have vaped multiple grams on, and after I burn it clean, it does take a slight broken-in appearance, but absolutely no smell or taste!

I told you man, I can clean the overbaked smelly layer. It just takes far too long compared to cleaning my enail, and is required after every bowl. It is an unacceptable burden for me and I need to dose more quickly/frequently than that sometimes. Of course I'm gonna reach for the tool that lets me medicate with less frequent cleaning and still come away with a better experience!

I can absolutely clean my Puffco + to brand new, it just takes a long time and far too much battery. I could have cleaned my e-nail, dab rig and had a enough dabs to fall asleep by the time I'd done that; if I didn't have much charge left in my pen battery

CONTINUED...

 

[herbivore21]

Continued:

I don't burn my donut clean after every use, and I'm not bothered by a few specs of reclaim oil on the cup if I only have to heat it to around 400F, it doesn't seem to change much when cycled at those low temps. I think your much higher standards may be mis-representing how good ceramic 510 vapes can be, and may be deterring others who would otherwise be very happy with portable vapes like these?

This very much echoes my experiences with newer all ceramic carts. However, what I've said above still stands - e-nails set at higher temps provide a smoother, incomparably tastier experience even with the higher temp I run the surface of my SiC halo at given in the example above. This is a good conversation to have had despite the misunderstanding about condescension because I am sure at this stage you can see why I'm taken time to labor this point. The temp is not the only relevant variable, because different substances can still have different heat transfer properties and the temp on the surface is not necessarily what ends up at the oil itself.

But you recommend the FF2 for concentrates as a portable over TC'd 510 ceramic vapes? I would think a good TC mod with a ceramic donut or crucible would match or exceed vape output and flavor with BHOs over a FF2, and would far exceed it in warm-up and battery time, and cost.

Yes, I recommended it because IME that style of convection (which I have done with many other vapes too, desktops and portables) gets better and more lasting good flavor than TC mod all ceramic pens. The battery in the FF2 is a major sore point though and I have said that all over FC for a long time.

Still, I can use full melt and rosin in an FF2 or other convection vape with a concentrate pad and get the flavor that I expect given what I get from my e-nails when I consume this material. No pen achieves that. That is the reason for my firmly held view that pens are inferior.

but are you going to use your e-nail and dab rig while driving your car, or during a hike, or at a concert? You can use a 510 ceramic atty in tons of places you can't dab with a rig, and get great results still, which I don't think you're recognizing.

Finally, I can finish responding to you by saying this:

No, I tend not to medicate whilst actually driving generally. This is not necessary, dabs last a long time and I can take a dab on my e-nail on the way out the door in not much more time than it takes to look in the mirror and make sure I didn't spill food on myself at breakfast I can use my omnivap with a single, day-long load of full melt which will have flavor that lasts out the whole day with the load. I can't do that with a pen. It'll make the full melt taste like shit before it's even gotten half-way through boiling.

I also explicitly acknowledged in my post above that pens are much more portable, and I still find e-nails more convenient even with that being said! The reason is the same as above. I can consume a single dose of oil instantly on my e-nail. I'll be huffing on a pen for a long time before that material has finished boiling and it'll taste like hard work by the time the bowl starts creating large clouds. I don't need portability if I can get more efficient use of smaller amounts which requires less of my time to dose and consume and allows me lasting dosage and more time to do my work productively. I usually dose with 3-5x .05-.1g dabs in a day. To consume the same in a pen, I'd be huffing that shit for a very long time, many times longer than it'd take me to dab them on my e-nail.

Hopefully my reasons are much, much clearer now.

Again, I did not mean any condescension at all

 

[looney2nz]

it's all about the lexicon brothers

define it first, and avoid all the misunderstandings!

But we illuminate so much in the misunderstanding

 

[herbivore21]

it's all about the lexicon brothers

define it first, and avoid all the misunderstandings!

You would not believe how much time we college academics spend saying this very thing to undergrads