Combustion vs. Vaporization: What are the temperatures?

[MauiWowee]

I have been reading a lot about vaping lately. One of my concerns was that my cheap conduction vaporizer might be burning the herb. However, I came across some temperature information for combustion vs. vaporization, and I wanted to ask you all if this sounds right:

Vaporization of THC takes place at around 400 degrees fahrenheit.

Combustion of herb takes place at around 1,100 degrees fahrenheit.

Does this sound right? If so, does that pretty much eliminate the concerns that anyone might have about burning their herb with a vaporizer? I mean, as long as your vaporizer heats at less than 600 degrees fahrenheit, it can't burn (combust) the herb - am I correct?


It seems hard to find much information on Google about combustion temperatures, but here is something I found that describes the combustion temperatures of wood:

"There are three basic stages to wood combustion:

Water is removed by evaporation and vaporization. This heat does not warm the stove or room.
At 500 degrees Fahrenheit, the wood starts to break down chemically, and volatile gases are formed. These vapors contain from 50 to 60 percent of the heat value of wood. At approximately 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit, these gases, when mixed with the proper amount of air, break into flames and burn. To ensure complete combustion, maintain this temperature and a sufficient air supply.
After the release of gases, the remaining material (charcoal) burns at a temperature in excess of 1,100 degrees Fahrenheit. When charcoal is completely burned, a small amount of ash remains."

That's where I got the 1,100 degrees fahrenheit temperature from.

 

[max]

Combustion temp varies a little I think, but it's not as high as 1100.

"while combustion occurred around 230 (446F) or above."
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy1.html

 

[MauiWowee]

Combustion temp varies a little I think, but it's not as high as 1100.

"while combustion occurred around 230 (446F) or above."
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/vaporizerstudy1.html

Thanks!

Here is a quote from that study:

The NORML-MAPS study tested a device called the M1 Volatizer, an aromatherapy vaporizer developed by Alternative Delivery Systems, Inc. It consisted of an electric heating element in a chamber that radiates heat downwards over a sample of marijuana sitting in a standard pipe or "bong" bowl. Output from the vaporizer was analyzed and compared to smoke produced by combusting the sample with a flame.

The vaporizer produced THC at a temperature of 185 C. (365 F.) while completely eliminating three measured toxins - benzene, a known carcinogen, plus toluene and naphthalene. Carbon monoxide and smoke tars were both qualitatively reduced by the vaporizer, but additional testing is needed to quantify the extent of the decrease.

Although the study was not designed to detect the highly carcinogenic tars known as polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are thought to be a leading culprit in smoking-related cancers, there was good reason to believe that they were suppressed, since they normally form at much higher temperatures of combustion.

When vaporized, the marijuana emitted a thin gray vapor and was left with a green to greenish-brown "toasted" appearance, whereas the combusted sample produced thick smoke and turned to ash.

Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200 C. (392 F), while combustion occurred around 230 (446F) or above. Traces of THC were in evidence as low as 140 C. (284 F).

So, they are basically saying that carcinogenic tars will start being released at temperatures of 200 C. (392 F), does that sound about right? In other words, as long as your vaporizer heats at higher than than 185 C. (365 F) and lower than 200 C. (392 F), you're probably safe?

That was very informative, thanks again! It sure makes a good argument for buying a digital unit. I don't know what temperature my conduction unit is.

 

[MauiWowee]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before. I did a search and couldn't find anything. This really helped me so I appreciate it.

 

[MauiWowee]

Let me take this a step further with another question:

Do you lose any THC when you use a bag?

The reason I ask is that I am trying to determine which method of vapor cooling loses more THC - water filtering or using bags.

 

[Hennessy1414]

Let me take this a step further with another question:

Do you lose any THC when you use a bag?

The reason I ask is that I am trying to determine which method of vapor cooling loses more THC - water filtering or using bags.

water filtering


next question..?

 

[vtac]

water filtering

How did you come to this conclusion?

MauiWowee, clearly you are hungry for knowledge and that's good. But don't get 'analysis paralysis'. Also why are you taking this thread off topic when you already made a thread on Do you lose THC vapor when passing it through water?

Again, please use existing threads instead of creating duplicates or derailing others.

 

[Hennessy1414]

it would seem that water is more able to grab up the 'goods' more than the bag...

whatever...both work thats why they on the market

vapor is vapor unless you use those dome vapes you have

yo out man

 

[SpiralArchitect]

it would seem that water is more able to grab up the 'goods' more than the bag...

Are you a scientist, or did you just stay at a Holiday Inn last night?

I think the difference would be negligible.... thc is a sticky molecule, so condenses on everything, even vapor whip tubing, it's just a part of the process. Most likely unavoidable, but it really doesn't matter in the long run as most of those 'remnants' can be extracted in one way or another....

 

[partially veiled]

^

Why is water "more able" to grab up goods, more so than bags that is? It doesn't make sense to me...is glass more able to grab up the goods than plastic? Some points seem logical, some are more obscure...the fact is that I'm sure there ARE some truths to be discovered behind all of this, but I really call BS on the fact that you're doing all the research Henny. A lot of the mechanics is based purely in science, but if studies aren't being done with the exact parameters we're talking about (IE. controlled studies specifically on Cannabis usage in the methods and with the temperatures we're using, in dreamland), then most of the "facts" we're espousing amount to nothing more than opinion, hopefully based in experience, but often based in rumor. Sorry, but I think that's just a bold statement to make and it's being made to someone who is trying to enter the world of vaporizing, which is already confusing enough...so at least add a disclaimer that these "facts" are actually just intuitions from your experience or in your opinion or whatever...and that's more acceptable. I dunno...it's not cool to make sweeping statements, especially when you're trying to "educate" people...it so does not work that way IMO!

Anyway, MauiWowee and as others have said, you'll find that research is going to become your best friend. Consider it the gift you give yourself...as it'll pay back when you're really digging on vapor and digging on WHY you're digging on it at the same time...ya digg? Haha sorry...

Still, while we're on the topic of research...most research that's been done is a) for smoke b) challenged by some group or another. I share Spiral's sentiment that it's simply "part of the process", and I think you should just do what works for you.

To give you an example: I'm now using a home made in-line bubbler (water filtration device) with my SSV. That means I'm using the same wand I was using before (glass condensation point), MORE tubing than I had previously been using (need more tubing to go in and out of the bubbler...plastic is also a condensation point), water, more glass (the bubbler/mason jar itself)...so I should "technically" be loosing THC to condensation, more so than with my last set up at least. In my actual experience, I'm getting higher. I don't know if it's because I can hold the vapor deeper in my lungs longer thanks to the coolness, because I can take bigger, longer, harder hits thanks again to the cooling and filtration (I was having trouble with my SSV before this mod, finding it a little too hot at vaping temps)...I really don't know, but I know my experience...so I stand by saying "do your homework, and then try some shit out"

Find what makes you happy and you'll be happy. Welcome friend. Enjoy vapor. =)

 

[MauiWowee]

water filtering

How did you come to this conclusion?

MauiWowee, clearly you are hungry for knowledge and that's good. But don't get 'analysis paralysis'. Also why are you taking this thread off topic when you already made a thread on Do you lose THC vapor when passing it through water?

Again, please use existing threads instead of creating duplicates or derailing others.

I can't seem to please you for some reason. I added my extra questions to this thread like you asked me to instead of starting a new thread, and now it seems I have done wrong again and am being accused of derailing threads. Is this chastize the newcomer week?

 

[Hennessy1414]

I can't seem to please you for some reason. I added my extra questions to this thread like you asked me to instead of starting a new thread, and now it seems I have done wrong again and am being accused of derailing threads. Is this chastize the newcomer week?

chill out bro....i just got thrown off by all of your threads you started and the vape you have....we chill

yo PV...in my experience..i got higher from straight up hits rather than water filtered hits..

so in the end i think ill be able to give you a good idea of the 'answer' before any "study" is done on vaporizers..

 

[max]

So, they are basically saying that carcinogenic tars will start being released at temperatures of 200 C. (392 F), does that sound about right? In other words, as long as your vaporizer heats at higher than than 185 C. (365 F) and lower than 200 C. (392 F), you're probably safe?

That was very informative, thanks again! It sure makes a good argument for buying a digital unit. I don't know what temperature my conduction unit is.

Don't go overboard with the temp thing and toxins. Unless you live in the woods like Bigfoot you probably get worse on a daily basis. They haven't been able to nail pot smoke for causing cancer, let alone vapor. And the effective difference between 365 and 400 is small compared to smoke. IMO living on fast food and soft drinks is more dangerous to your health than high temp vapor.

As for digital vapes, they're nice. And expensive if you want accuracy. And then there's reliability to consider. The Purple-Days was built, so to speak, on the grave of a $500 Super Vapezilla. :/

 

[Hennessy1414]

The Purple-Days was built, so to speak, on the grave of a $500 Super Vapezilla. :/

saved quote

seriously tho...why even fuck with variable if you only puff weedz

 

[partially veiled]

I can't seem to please you for some reason. I added my extra questions to this thread like you asked me to instead of starting a new thread, and now it seems I have done wrong again and am being accused of derailing threads. Is this chastize the newcomer week?

I know you're probably just joking around, but just in case...he is right. The title of the thread is "Combustion vs. Vaporization: What are the temperatures?" so anyone who might potentially be looking for information on water cooling, or water cooling vs. no water cooling, or any of that stuff...well, they won't be looking here. The point is if we have any meaningful conversation then the things we have to add to the discussion won't matter as much because they're out of place, and some one who is actually looking for an answer to the question we happen to be discussing will probably miss it if they're just "passing through".

Anyway, forums can be tough some times so just take some time to figure it out. There's definitely an etiquette...but there's a lot of chaos, as well. We have a nice balance of polite and crazy here, I like it. =) Again welcome but you join us at a time when defining ourselves is important, so something we want to focus on is keeping information where it belongs...this is hard, but worth doing. It will benefit people who really need answers, in the long run.

 

[partially veiled]

seriously tho...why even fuck with variable if you only puff weedz

Dude, seriously? Again, because there are different people out there with different preferences, and different strains with different needs...etc, etc. The PD is great and all but some people might well want to vaporize at a higher temperature. Or vaporize in one hit more than the small bowl will allow you to vaporize at one time. Or whatever...it's personal, so that's why we fuck with variable temperatures and units besides the PD.

 

[MauiWowee]

I can't seem to please you for some reason. I added my extra questions to this thread like you asked me to instead of starting a new thread, and now it seems I have done wrong again and am being accused of derailing threads. Is this chastize the newcomer week?

I know you're probably just joking around, but just in case...he is right. The title of the thread is "Combustion vs. Vaporization: What are the temperatures?" so anyone who might potentially be looking for information on water cooling, or water cooling vs. no water cooling, or any of that stuff...well, they won't be looking here.

I was told to keep everything in one thread so I was just trying to abide by the rules. My bad.

Actually I probably just did one two many tests on my new vape and my brain failed. Sorry.



mod note: posts merged

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

seriously tho...why even fuck with variable if you only puff weedz

Dude, seriously? Again, because there are different people out there with different preferences, and different strains with different needs...etc, etc. The PD is great and all but some people might well want to vaporize at a higher temperature. Or vaporize in one hit more than the small bowl will allow you to vaporize at one time. Or whatever...it's personal, so that's why we fuck with variable temperatures and units besides the PD.

yes, i am one of those that wants to vape at a higher temperature than the pd offers, its nothing against the pd, its still a great unit, but i enjoy getting the heavy couchlock-ey effects, when i vape indica through the pd, it gets me really high, but it doesnt lay me out like i would like it to, there are those of us who actually prefer indica to sativa, and id rather be vaping and get absolutely layed out than having to waste my herb putting it through my pipe

medicinal users really need to get more of the full-spectrum of thereputic compounds, not just the stuff that makes you high, theres much more to the great medicine than thc

edit: i want to make it clear, i am not dissatisfied in the least with my purchase of the purple days, but it does have limitations as even tom will tell you, it also has a ton of other stuff that makes it really awesome, and will always find a spot in my lineup

 

[vtac]

Sorry for the confusion, Maui. Some of your threads were similar in scope to threads that already exist here, what I was saying earlier was please try to post in existing threads rather than create duplicates.

In this thread I was bitching about posting off topic: The 'THC loss in water' question when the thread title is 'Combustion vs. Vaporization: What are the temperatures?' You had already made a thread titled 'Do you lose THC vapor when passing it through water?' so I was curious why you asked that in this one.

Shit does that even make sense? Well, I guess you can appreciate the desire to keep things organized... sometimes I'll risk sounding like a rule crazy asshole in the hopes of making it less necessary in the future. And if that makes sense to you, you're higher than I am.

 

[Acolyte of Zinglon]

ehh thats what makes a great admin

 

[MauiWowee]

Well, I guess you can appreciate the desire to keep things organized...

I definitely appreciate it. It's like having files in the right drawers. If you don't keep up on it they become scattered everywhere.

Kind of like my brain feels at times.

 

[cannabananabis]

^

Why is water "more able" to grab up goods, more so than bags that is? It doesn't make sense to me...is glass more able to grab up the goods than plastic? Some points seem logical, some are more obscure...the fact is that I'm sure there ARE some truths to be discovered behind all of this, but I really call BS on the fact that you're doing all the research Henny. A lot of the mechanics is based purely in science, but if studies aren't being done with the exact parameters we're talking about (IE. controlled studies specifically on Cannabis usage in the methods and with the temperatures we're using, in dreamland), then most of the "facts" we're espousing amount to nothing more than opinion, hopefully based in experience, but often based in rumor. Sorry, but I think that's just a bold statement to make and it's being made to someone who is trying to enter the world of vaporizing, which is already confusing enough...so at least add a disclaimer that these "facts" are actually just intuitions from your experience or in your opinion or whatever...and that's more acceptable. I dunno...it's not cool to make sweeping statements, especially when you're trying to "educate" people...it so does not work that way IMO!

Anyway, MauiWowee and as others have said, you'll find that research is going to become your best friend. Consider it the gift you give yourself...as it'll pay back when you're really digging on vapor and digging on WHY you're digging on it at the same time...ya digg? Haha sorry...

Still, while we're on the topic of research...most research that's been done is a) for smoke b) challenged by some group or another. I share Spiral's sentiment that it's simply "part of the process", and I think you should just do what works for you.

To give you an example: I'm now using a home made in-line bubbler (water filtration device) with my SSV. That means I'm using the same wand I was using before (glass condensation point), MORE tubing than I had previously been using (need more tubing to go in and out of the bubbler...plastic is also a condensation point), water, more glass (the bubbler/mason jar itself)...so I should "technically" be loosing THC to condensation, more so than with my last set up at least. In my actual experience, I'm getting higher. I don't know if it's because I can hold the vapor deeper in my lungs longer thanks to the coolness, because I can take bigger, longer, harder hits thanks again to the cooling and filtration (I was having trouble with my SSV before this mod, finding it a little too hot at vaping temps)...I really don't know, but I know my experience...so I stand by saying "do your homework, and then try some shit out"

Find what makes you happy and you'll be happy. Welcome friend. Enjoy vapor. =)

Sorry to go a little off-topic again, but with water and more tubing you are losing THC. You can get higher because you take bigger hits, but that's because there's a higher concentration in your lungs - meaning more absorption.

THC isn't very water soluble, but just as with the tubing it passes through it still loses some, and the more surface area it's exposed to, the more it loses plain and simple. The tubing on my PD, for example, is already getting brown after only having a couple days, and that's just a few inches long.


Those numbers in earlier posts (365-392 F) sound right, I think I recall reading that each PD goes at around 375-385. I've only used a friend's volcano (a year or 2 ago) and my new PD, so I'm curious about vaping at hotter temperature - to get more out of it, as acolyte mentioned.

 

[Hennessy1414]

heres how you get "all that" outta your weed without it hurting your lungs...


save up all your PD duff(already vaped bud) and cook it into butter/canola oil. make the canna oil and your ready to go on the rest of the high from all of your nuggets. it actually taste pretty good in a cake mix...im posting pics about that very soon to the cooking thread



(IMO fuck vaporizing at higher temps. because it only gives less taste and more burnt taste...no fun )

 

[cabessativa]

here is a study on Combustion vs. Vaporization :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/294969/Medical-Marijuana-Vaporizer-Study

take care

 

[nicelytoasted]

A a chemist, I can state that as you increase vaporizing temp, you do tend to uptake more particulate into the air stream.

Latest research shows that it may be the size of any inhaled particles (and any chemical that may have bound to them) that may play a role in toxicity. Humans generally inhale particulate at ~10 microns and respire at ~2.5 microns. Anything smaller (like aerosols) are respired into the lungs.

That said, the effect is negligble vs smoking, and the lower boilers do taste so good. Personally, I prefer ramping in the lower temp range, but the exact temp range is subjective, and differs somewhat for each person and each vaporizer. Keep in mind that a thick cloud does not necessarily mean maximum effect for everyone.