Clear or Cloudy - What's Best - Device Dependent ?

[His_Highness]

This pertains to two different vapes so I thought I'd post it here instead of one of the specific vaporizer threads...

MFLB user guide mentions little to no vapor is normal and is actually preferred since seeing vapor meant you might be wasting product. This was a tough concept for me since the MFLB was my first vape. Initially I really craved the feedback in the form of some vapor when exhaling to know it was working. It didn't take me long to get comfortable with the concept of not seeing any vapor because the truth teller was I'd be baked.

Then came the Solo and cloud chasing. I've seen threads mentioning the Solo session is beat when the vapor stops being produced. I also turn off the unit just before I hit for the last time and keep at it until no vapor is produced.

So..
If you were trying to optimize product use with both vapes would you seek to eliminate seeing vapor on exhale? Or when working the Solo should you always strive for a little visual vapor on exhale?

 

[theCerberus]

Honestly if you think the effect is enough from non visible vapor, its probably safer to stay in that range of temperature.

Most of us are looking for big clouds because we dont feel much effect in these temperatures and would go back to smoking if the MFLB or other low quality vaporizers like a box/whip vape were the only option.

Some people look at these types of vapes as gimmicky and dont quite give you a "real high" as a result this could lead to them thinking vaporizing as a whole is gimmicky and doesnt work. But if you are fine with the effects you are getting thats really all that matters.

IMO however most medical users who are in serious chronic pain need more of an effect and therefore do not get symptom relief without larger clouds from a quality convection vaporizer.

Yes, I consider a bowl done when it does not produce any more visible vapor. But you would have only taste to go by if you stick to lower temps.

 

[killick]

I get wispy hits from my NO2 and Extreme-Q. The taste at low temp is great, and I feel the effects starting quickly. But when they start is when I start bumping the temps up, but neither of these are capable of Big Clouds without some tweaking (elbow packing the Q as an example), so I'm currently looking for a log vape to sit on my desk, and hopefully it works as well as a home unit as my new stealthy unit does! The best thing about the units is the adjustability, so you can keep it low for flavour, and them bump it up as you go. I usually use 10 degree bumps to make sure I'm getting max effect from the meds. But what do I know - I'm learning on the fly

 

[lwien]

Ummm.........I don't know if clouds are temp dependent. I can get HUGE clouds from my LSV without cranking up the temp while the ABV remains a very, very light brown. A lot of this also has to do with bud quality and air to vapor ratios independent of temp.

Now that's not to say that high temp vaping doesn't produces more clouds, but again, I can get huge clouds at low temps as well.

In regards to the high, I get higher quicker with clouds than without.

 

[His_Highness]

I can't argue against the fact that clouds will get you higher, quicker and taste better in many cases. Guess that's why we chase em ....

but what about optimal use of the weed? Would easing up on the clouds to the extent that little is exhaled get you just as baked over time and also conserve the weed? I have a feeling it would but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra care and foregoing the joy of the cloud itself. Kinda like the difference between nibbling on a chocolate chip cookie OR taking a big ol' chocolaty bite. Nibbling would make the cookie last longer but oh man, that big bite would be really good.

 

[lwien]

For me, I like chasing clouds on lift-off but then go for the non-cloud hits for maintenance.

 

[hoptimum]

I like both, hence, vaporizing. You don't have that option when you're smoking

 

[max]

Most of us are looking for big clouds because we dont feel much effect in these temperatures and would go back to smoking if the MFLB or other low quality vaporizers like a box/whip vape were the only option.

First of all you're assuming a lot by saying "most of us". What range would "these temperatures" cover? Personally I feel a lot of effect from low temps. It's just different from the high temp effects. Neither the Magic Flight nor name brand box vapes are low quality. That's an absurd statement. I can get the same effect from an inexpensive vape as I do from one costing half a grand.

Initially I really craved the feedback in the form of some vapor when exhaling to know it was working.

You're not alone there. I think it's more or less human nature.

It didn't take me long to get comfortable with the concept of not seeing any vapor because the truth teller was I'd be baked.

I wish more people would get that truth. If you had to see big clouds of vapor to get the effect, blind vaporists would be up shit creek.

If you want a satisfactory answer to your question use both methods with the same amount of herb and try to figure out which one leaves you more medicated. If you don't detect much difference just choose what suits you. Since I've personally seen people get high from both 2nd hand mj smoke and vapor, I tend to disagree with those who say that all active compounds in a huge hit are extracted by the lungs in just a few seconds. If that were the case then 2nd hand vapor would have no effect. I've found, going back many years before I'd ever heard of vaporzing, that I tend to hold hits longer when the herb is high quality, and that applies to my first hit as well, before I've even decided by effect that it's good. I call it listening to my lungs. It works for me.

 

[lwien]

If you had to see big clouds of vapor to get the effect, blind vaporists would be up shit creek.

Yeah, but I would bet that blind vaporists can feel those clouds that they can't see.

Compensating senses, if you will.

 

[His_Highness]

Max - I'll take your advice and experiment a bit and report back after a few days. Should be fun.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

I wish more people would get that truth. If you had to see big clouds of vapor to get the effect, blind vaporists would be up shit creek.

LMAOOOOO


I think that if you have a very low tolerance, wispy vapor might get you really really high, but with a decent tolerance, leaving out the stuff you miss at the higher temps (365-395F) will wend up wasting more herb.

 

[KeroZen]

A lot of this thread answers are non-sense and/or misguided...

You guys are completely confused and mixing several unrelated concepts:
1) temperature-dependant physiological effects
2) vapor particulates size and visibility
3) vapor/air ratio
4) lungs absorbtion speed and capacity

(1) depends on the strain you use (genetics), in what environment and with what nutrients it was grown (ex: some compounds are only produced in response to UVB presence etc), the temperature you select and how well your vaporizer is able to control and maintain its set temp (some have no active control at all...). The number and spacing of temperature levels you do also has an impact.

(2) depends on strain, growing conditions, dryness, curing, vaporizer heat source and design, set temperature, external temperature, room humidity, and lighting conditions on exhale. Switch your lights off, set your vape to low temps and shine a flashlight across your mouth and you will see huge amounts of vapor at temperatures you would usually say there is nothing but "wispy hits".

(3) is entirely dependant on vape design (and how you pack the load). It just affects the concentration (and thus (4) to some extent) but provided you could absorb it the same, two hits containing the same amount of compounds, one diluted and the other less, can in theory provide the exact same effect but you're going to see the diluted one less.

(4) is open to debate but @max made an excellent point: if you can get high from second hand vapor, then it means there are still actives left in the exhale. Re-breathing a few times (with fresh air) works for me and boosts the effects. For me anything you see on exhale is wasted, but I don't care too much as we all wasted much more when we were combusting, and we were not obsessed by "keeping it all" (like Golum and his "Precious"!)

 

[lwien]

LMAOOOOO


I think that if you have a very low tolerance, wispy vapor might get you really really high, but with a decent tolerance, leaving out the stuff you miss at the higher temps (365-395F) will wend up wasting more herb.

Wispy hits does NOT necessarily mean that you are vaping at low temps.

KZ above made some very valid points.

I can get HUGE clouds vaping at low temps with my LSV and I can get wispy hits at high temps through my MFLB. Not only that, but all of the things from the type of bud you are using, the moisture content of the bud that you are vaping, etc etc.............all of that makes an impact on the density of the vapor, so basically, what you stated just doesn't stand up to any kind of logic.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Wispy hits does NOT necessarily mean that you are vaping at low temps.

KZ above made some very valid points.

I can get HUGE clouds vaping at low temps with my LSV and I can get wispy hits at high temps through my MFLB. Not only that, but all of the things from the type of bud you are using, the moisture content of the bud that you are vaping, etc etc.............all of that makes an impact on the density of the vapor, so basically, what you stated just doesn't stand up to any kind of logic.

A wispy hit doesn't mean that you are at a lower temp than another vape, but the fact is the higher temps will almost always produce bigger clouds with the same bud in the same device.
Device does have to be taken into consideration, to see if it is even capable of producing enough airflow/heat for clouds, but if you can pull visible vapor from a vape, it's most likely going to hit harder than if you had lowered the temp to where it was invisible.
Not because of the visible cloud, but because of the higher temp extraction.



Were people to inhale the same volume of air/vapor, hold it for 3 seconds, and exhale at the same time, the ones who blew denser clouds would probably feel like the hit was stronger (even if they were blindfolded) and didn't know. It would've been a more thorough extraction.

 

[NorVape]

I gave a friend of mine the first, tasty hit of a vapman session the other day, and kept the heat low so he could really enjoy the flavours. He has a low tolerance, but it wasn't always so. In other words, he know the effects of cannabis when he feels them.

He was knocked out by an almost vaporless hit of some high grade meds.

 

[Roger D]

I enjoy big clouds. If I exhale a huge lung full of vapor I know I'm going to be medicated. The vapor stays in the room, most of the times the windows are closed so you end up breathing it in anyway.

 

[His_Highness]

I'm going to do a little self-discovery using the temp settings on my Solo. What I'll be looking to discover is whether herb use/optimization is influenced by cloud size. I can keep the temp setting at 4, which is average for me, and by moderating the draw, can either produce large clouds or very small clouds. What I want to find out is whether smaller clouds will require more hits to get the same high but will cause the herb to last longer versus larger clouds. As I mentioned earlier in the thread...I don't think there is any debate that larger clouds tend to be more satisfying and can get you higher, quicker but can you extend herb use and get just as high with smaller clouds, and if so, by how much. I'll start this during my Thanksturkey time off at the end of this week.

I realize that this won't be a true scientifically grounded experiment but I will try and keep it to an apples to apples comparison as best I can:
- All testing done at level 4
- Same herb used throughout the test cycle and at the same grind
- Same amount, as close as possible, of herb used in each session
- Aim for the same time each day (7pm) so as not to be unduly influenced by eating schedules, etc.

There are multiple things that could skew a one-person experiment like this such as .. mental state, physical state, what was eaten earlier, etc. but I'm willing to make the sacrifice

Any other suggestions? Anyone care to shoot a few more holes in this idea?

 

[His_Highness]

Tried to discover whether limiting cloud size could result in more efficient product use and still allow for the same high....couldn't force myself to continue the discovery because it was taking the joy out of the session

The issue I ran into was patience and session satisfaction. I did find that I could get just as baked by limiting clouds/cloud size, using smaller, less cloudy draws with similar hold time but it did take longer to 'get there'. I also found that I did use a little less to obtain a similar high when I limited cloud size but it wasn't worth it to me because the difference wasn't significant enough versus the session satisfaction level. Maybe over the long haul it might be worth it but I'll never know. I didn't enjoy the draw and session nearly as much without the clouds AND I didn't enjoy it taking longer to get to the destination . Ultimately I succumbed to the same fate as many computer companies..... by eventually going to the cloud .

This isn't a valid test in any sense and what I have learned isn't life changing or surprising.....clouds provide a higher level of session satisfaction, large clouds will waste some product and although you could stretch herb use by limiting clouds it can detract from the enjoyment of partaking.

And might I add 'DUH'.

 

[grokit]

I can't even stretch herb when I take small hits, I just end up taking more hits to compensate.

 

[His_Highness]

I can't even stretch herb when I take small hits, I just end up taking more hits to compensate.

I was monitoring my intake so closely on the smaller, non-cloudy side that it was taking all the joy out of it. I wouldn't allow my lesser clouded hits to be much more than 3-4 seconds followed by deep inhaling of oxygen with a hold that involved letting out 1/2 my lung capacity and then drawing more oxygen in and holding again. Contrasting the less cloudy sessions with the 'Cloudy enough to block out the sun' sessions may have increased my dissatisfaction a bunch.

 

[zor]

If you really like clouds then hydrate your herb, the water vapor ought to scratch that itch

 

[Dr. Plutonious]

It's also worth noting that different strains produce different amounts of vapour at the same temperature. I have some Green Crack I'm using with my EVO right now at around the 1PM range on the machine and get MASSIVE hits. At the same temp when vaping my Kaia Kush though, I get much less.

Honestly, most of this is just down to preference. I like the visual aspect of clouds, but I prefer thinner vapour now since it is easier on the lungs. I usually only crank up the temp for the super thick/ completely opaque hits when I wanna show off the EVO to someone who hasn't seen it before.

 

[Chainfire]

A lot of this thread answers are non-sense and/or misguided...

You guys are completely confused and mixing several unrelated concepts:
1) temperature-dependant physiological effects
2) vapor particulates size and visibility
3) vapor/air ratio
4) lungs absorbtion speed and capacity

(1) depends on the strain you use (genetics), in what environment and with what nutrients it was grown (ex: some compounds are only produced in response to UVB presence etc), the temperature you select and how well your vaporizer is able to control and maintain its set temp (some have no active control at all...). The number and spacing of temperature levels you do also has an impact.

(2) depends on strain, growing conditions, dryness, curing, vaporizer heat source and design, set temperature, external temperature, room humidity, and lighting conditions on exhale. Switch your lights off, set your vape to low temps and shine a flashlight across your mouth and you will see huge amounts of vapor at temperatures you would usually say there is nothing but "wispy hits".

(3) is entirely dependant on vape design (and how you pack the load). It just affects the concentration (and thus (4) to some extent) but provided you could absorb it the same, two hits containing the same amount of compounds, one diluted and the other less, can in theory provide the exact same effect but you're going to see the diluted one less.

(4) is open to debate but @max made an excellent point: if you can get high from second hand vapor, then it means there are still actives left in the exhale. Re-breathing a few times (with fresh air) works for me and boosts the effects. For me anything you see on exhale is wasted, but I don't care too much as we all wasted much more when we were combusting, and we were not obsessed by "keeping it all" (like Golum and his "Precious"!)

wow, thanks man. Great post!! very informative!

 

[slick]

So..
If you were trying to optimize product use with both vapes would you seek to eliminate seeing vapor on exhale? Or when working the Solo should you always strive for a little visual vapor on exhale?

I can get massive clouds and take 2 hits, or 6 ghost hits to get the same effect. I don't feel either conserve more, just different ways to get to the same place.

I do find though that if the oven has enough of a heat load for clouds, the rest of the session will be cloudy until done. So maybe I am just missing the subtle different effects at different temps.

 

[His_Highness]

I can get massive clouds and take 2 hits, or 6 ghost hits to get the same effect. I don't feel either conserve more, just different ways to get to the same place.

I do find though that if the oven has enough of a heat load for clouds, the rest of the session will be cloudy until done. So maybe I am just missing the subtle different effects at different temps.

The info for the MFLB (My first vape) mentioned that not seeing clouds was optimal use of the herb and turned out to be true for me. I didn't see much vapor but was getting baked. The MFLB info even suggested that NOT seeing vapor on exhale meant I was doing it right because seeing vapor on exhale meant I was wasting product. Common sense would imply if I see vapor on exhale it meant I wasn't absorbing it.

Then I started using the Solo which was easier for me to create clouds versus the MFLB. This thread was an attempt to see if limiting the clouds would limit the waste. I did find I could get a little more use of the herb if I tried not to see clouds on exhale BUT it didn't seem to make that much of a difference AND it wasn't as satisfying.

With the Solo's ability to create clouds....I have a suspicion that not seeing clouds means no feedback and no feedback causes folks to take additional hits while waiting for the high to kick in....I was trying to find that equilibrium point but it was taking the joy out of the session for me.