CCA710 LIGER - AIR

[Anon3200]

You missread the paper... low specific heat makes it less ideal as an insert but more ideal as a heat transfer material to the insert (your heat Bank).

It's the lower specific heat that is why it's not great to dab from directly (higher heat capacity means higher vaporizing capacity at a lower temperature).

Dabbing directly off by titanium leaves a white residue or reacts with it to produce a white oxide that has an extremely low heat transfer rate and is porus, sucking up your good stuff.

Unlike aluminum oxide which we all love for dabbing. Twice the specfic heat of quartz and 20x the heat transfer rate, without the chazz.

You don't get this white residue with a liger.

It sounds great on paper doesn't it? Yet in real life it tastes like a dental pick when dabbed from.

 

[Anon3200]

Dude the air path on the liger air is shorter than Hitlers dick. I seriously doubt that there is any detectable difference between a quartz and titanium air path of that length. That part must be in your head.

I used to have a titanium "radiator" pipe and the thing was the shit. Way better flavor than glass as long as you kept the tube clean.

The sharp flavor that you described is more likely from you exhausting the heat capacity so some of your juice is sitting there breaking down and basically turning into resin before it is vaporized. You get the same issue if you drop a gram into a 50 mm thermal banger. The Taste is terrible and it's from the breakdown of the dab just like how resin tastes crappy.

The only thing IIcan see quartz adding to a hot Sapphire is a little extra background heat capacity. However you should get the same or better effect from using the glob mode on your controller. Or raising the temperature 10 degrees before you drop your dab. That way you have a little extra background heat coming into replace the heat that is lost from vaporization. You could also do smaller dabs.

You can also add those Sapphire Spheres to increase heat capacity.

I'm going to ask Josh about making a Sapphire dish that goes inside the insert or a thicker high capacity insert.

 

[9solrac]

Its semi Polished. And i dont believe you can even patent an earth mineral being unpolished which is natural, or semi polished or polished.

Read about WIK.



The clealiness is what everyone is after!!!!! the pure clean taste of the diamonds and terps! Not the sharp flavor of ti that ruins the terps.

If you love Ti so much. Just dab on it directly!!!! Fuck the inserts! Back to my point.

SAME REASON YOU WONT DAB ON TITANIUM IS THE SAME REASON I DO NOT WANT TITANIUM IN MY AIR PATH.

What dont you understand about that statement????? Like i feel like your trolling!


I dont even see why this matters when you are using a COIL!!!!! If you were using a quartz bucket with torch compared to a Ti bucket with torch. Yes your are right. But im not. Im using a sapphire insert inside that holds heat twice as long as the quartz surrounding it!


So because a company hooked me up, im supposed to lie for them? Promote them only!!!! I get shit from all companies!

Adapt Tech hooks me up. So im so supposed to advertise for them only? No!

And im not advertising shit. Im informing the public of other options and if they find it better, all the better! That is what this forum is all about!

Dont get me wrong, if i need a sapphire insert from Josh, ill order one again but i have 4 as i bought in advance knowing how shitty his service and delivery times are.


***Edit***

I feel like if i dont provide others with options that i have experienced, im doing the forum an injustice as we are all here to share ideas, experiences and knowledge.

I would like to think i could have help this guy out by saving him a hundred or two to have a cleaner and purer taste.

Since I'm the guy that was helped I just want to say that since switching my order (and successfully getting a refund) I've dealt with 4 different companies today, 710 Life aka 420life.com, 710 coils, adapt tech and cca.

The bottom line is that cca's customer service is atrocious while the other three companies are awesome, helpful, attentive without astronomical prices for their products. I personally will not support the way CCA currently conducts business with my money after my recent experience. I did say that I would reconsider ordering from CCA if they get their customer service, shipping issues and business practices in order because their product looks legit, but paying a premium for goods should come with nothing short of excellent service throughout the whole customer experience (from the order till it is received).

I don't foresee any issues with heating as I only use coils, so I always know the temp I'm at for my dabs. I start low and go up in ten degree increments until I find the sweet spot for my set up.

I'm not here to say one set up is better than the other, but I generally lean towards removing any type of metal from my set up if possible which is why the recommendation works for me, it also costs less overall and it will all be shipped to me in days instead of weeks or months.

I came to this board for info, and I am so grateful that I was assisted, because CCA was not communicating with me.

Thank you to everyone who responded to any and all of my inquiries, you all helped me find my way.

P.S. 710life will look into creating a 30mm axial coil since I called to let them know i was planning to buy from a 3rd party. We shared pin information from both companies and my heating unit is not compatible with the 30mm sold by 710 coils. Shout out to both companies for helping me figure that out so that I could avoid blowing a fuse in my heating unit.

 

[Anon3200]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with CCA, I know Josh is busy and takes awhile to get back to people. He would probably make it right if you gave me a chance.

Honestly though I really feel that the flavor that shooby described was definitely from chemical breakdown of the dab before it was vaporized. I've tasted the same taste and had the same experience with quartz. One might associate that taste with surplus temperatures on a titanium nail. You get this if the temperatures are too high or too low as it will degrade over time in as little as maybe 10 seconds. You need to balance temperatures with the size of your dabs. Or if you are a Terp snobe then low temp it and wipe up the leftovers before it tastes bad. This is wasteful, Ideally you should be able to clear your dab in one inhale (IMO).

Reclaim taste different than dabs because it is changed (degraded) chemically by the heating. Reclaim quality would be lower if you are using too high of temps or not fully vaporizing it qui enough as the residue would be double degraded.

Sapphire is made of metal and oxygen by the way.

 

[invertedisdead]

Sapphire is made of metal and oxygen by the way.

But it's not a metal. Do you agree?

 

[Shooby]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with CCA, I know Josh is busy and takes awhile to get back to people. He would probably make it right if you gave me a chance.

Honestly though I really feel that the flavor that shooby described was definitely from chemical breakdown of the dab before it was vaporized. I've tasted the same taste and had the same experience with quartz. One might associate that taste with surplus temperatures on a titanium nail. You get this if the temperatures are too high or too low as it will degrade over time in as little as maybe 10 seconds. You need to balance temperatures with the size of your dabs. Or if you are a Terp snobe then low temp it and wipe up the leftovers before it tastes bad. This is wasteful, Ideally you should be able to clear your dab in one inhale (IMO).

Reclaim taste different than dabs because it is changed (degraded) chemically by the heating. Reclaim quality would be lower if you are using too high of temps or not fully vaporizing it qui enough as the residue would be double degraded.

Sapphire is made of metal and oxygen by the way.

You are killing me lol. Now I dab too hot when I use the liger? Go look up my past post on the 3.0 thread, with the liger, I'm at about 480 ish on my pid on the norm giving me a dish temp of about 430-440f ish.

Once people are aware of another sapphire inserts option out there that doesn't need a $200 metal housing and months to get, more will explore that option. They just don't know it exist or is possible yet. Thats what we are here to change And being cheaper and getting it faster all with a smile is a bonus.

 

[9solrac]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with CCA, I know Josh is busy and takes awhile to get back to people. He would probably make it right if you gave me a chance.

Honestly though I really feel that the flavor that shooby described was definitely from chemical breakdown of the dab before it was vaporized. I've tasted the same taste and had the same experience with quartz. One might associate that taste with surplus temperatures on a titanium nail. You get this if the temperatures are too high or too low as it will degrade over time in as little as maybe 10 seconds. You need to balance temperatures with the size of your dabs. Or if you are a Terp snobe then low temp it and wipe up the leftovers before it tastes bad. This is wasteful, Ideally you should be able to clear your dab in one inhale (IMO).

Reclaim taste different than dabs because it is changed (degraded) chemically by the heating. Reclaim quality would be lower if you are using too high of temps or not fully vaporizing it qui enough as the residue would be double degraded.

Sapphire is made of metal and oxygen by the way.

I do believe in CCA's products, but the wait and customer service is a deal breaker for me. I just finished my order with the other three companies and I'll be dabbing on a 24mm sapphire insert placed in a 30mm quartz banger in 3 to 5 business days. This is the kind of prompt and attentive service that I'm looking for when I'm investing $500 of my money (and the set up mentioned above cost me $392 for a 30mm coil, sapphire insert and 30 mm banger).

CCA had a chance to make it right today but they chose to not give me a solid date of when I could expect my products or any type of discount for their less than adequate service. They offered my a free obsidian insert which i guess some people would take but if I wanted an obsidian insert I would have included it in my original order. If they would have offered 25 percent off, which on a $500 order comes out to $125 off my total bill (the price of an obsidian insert) I would have considered waiting for them to churn out my products. But for me, more product doesn't make up for my bad customer experience. Recieving some of my money back would go a long way in showing that they value not only my business but also my time.

I hope CCA reads this and gets it together, then I'll happily invest money with them as well. As I would love to post and share comparisons of the pros and cons of each set up.

 

[Anon3200]

No, your using too low of temps and putting too much material in at once. Only do what you can inhale in one rip. If you leaving it cooking too long then it will break down the way it does at hot and hurty temps of 750-850 degrees.

Quartz is only cheaper and tell it breaks or chazzes up. Your boy at Nautilus says up to 2 per year can be needed even if your using sapphire and another rig for cleaning.

You are killing me lol. Now I dab too hot when I use the liger? Go look up my past post on the 3.0 thread, with the liger, I'm at about 480 ish on my pid on the norm giving me a dish temp of about 430-440f ish.

Once people are aware of another sapphire inserts option out there that doesn't need a $200 metal housing and months to get, more will explore that option. They just don't know it exist or is possible yet. Thats what we are here to change And being cheaper and getting it faster all with a smile is a bonus.

 

[Anon3200]

Sapphire and quartz are both crystalline molecules that contain metal atoms but are presented in a non-metallic form.

 

[pxl_jockey]

@Shooby I just saw your ad in the classified section and promptly spit my evening tea on my iPad.
LMFAO! You funny, man. I’m sure you’ll get plenty of interest!

All Quartz Liger Set up with sapphire insert for Sale

 

[Shooby]

No, your using too low of temps and putting too much material in at once. Only do what you can inhale in one rip. If you leaving it cooking too long then it will break down the way it does at hot and hurty temps of 750-850 degrees.

Quartz is only cheaper and tell it breaks or chazzes up. Your boy at Nautilus says up to 2 per year can be needed even if your using sapphire and another rig for cleaning.

440f is not low dish temp.

I dab fine on sapphire and quartz but dab like shit on sapphire and titanium. Same amount. Same shit . Titanium sucks ass.

My temps are fine on the liger. Its just the liger sucks cuz of the ti. Using so much titanium. Ti is old school. Nothing new is made from titanium any more. Graduate with the times.

And yes. Sapphire will last indefinitely with proper care. It will not stain or fade.

Sapphire and quartz are both crystalline molecules that contain metal atoms but are presented in a non-metallic form.

No shit This means what? I'm sure most of us went to school. But if you hand someone sapphire, they aren't gonna say that's a nice piece of metal.

Smh. What are you trying to prove. Cca is the shit? Titanium is the best thing dab with?

What is the point of all your statements besides trolling?

 

[Anon3200]

Sorry but in my opinion but you are just wrong. I use my Liger every day and the thing it freaking awesome. Trust me, I talked about this with an MIT educated engineer, titanium is not chemically reacting with your vapor. The sharp taste is from degraded terpenes. Your doing something wrong on your end. Seriously how big of a dab are you doing? Are you clearing it in one hit? Tells us your exact procedure.

 

[invertedisdead]

titanium is not chemically reacting with your vapor.

That's why it tastes worse than quartz despite far superior thermal properties.

 

[Shooby]

Sorry but in my opinion but you are just wrong. I use my Liger every day and the thing it freaking awesome. Trust me, I talked about this with an MIT educated engineer, titanium is not chemically reacting with your vapor. The sharp taste is from degraded terpenes. Your doing something wrong on your end. Seriously how big of a dab are you doing? Are you clearing it in one hit? Tells us your exact procedure.

What do you not understand, the same way I dab on the liger, i dab with quartz. It taste like ass with the liger but fine with quartz. That's just it. Nothing you can tell me will change my experience. I did it with a quartz liger and it was cleaner and smoother.

Small or big dabs. No matter the size dab I drop in my quartz/sapphire set up, the outcome is the same.

So your MIT engineer friend is telling many in the flowerpot thread that the ti bowls are better than boro? And the improvements in vape isn't contributed to changing ti to boro?


***Edit***

The whole dam liger is a oven vaping vape off of sapphire and then titanium.

Do you think ti is the new tech in this industry? Everyone is moving away from it and if they don't adapt, they will fade. Highly educated were smart as hell to get into the quartz game to keep them alive.

All those old titanium companies are fading or gone or adapted to glass. Titanium is a great metal and I love it but not in my vapor path. And I'm not alone on this.


And it's not like the second hit is shitty tasting with the liger. The first and second hits are the same. Small or large, they taste the dam same.

 

[Shooby]

Sorry double post

 

[Anon3200]

With a vapor path short as the Liger, it's not the vapor path. The effect you are noticing must be from the extra thermal mass of the quartz. If you take your half OZ sapphire and put it in 1 ounce of quartz then that total amount of thermal mass is going to be higher than if it's in a tiny piece of titanium that holds very little Heat.

Maybe Josh needs to make some extra big sapphires.

Anyway try doing a smaller dab, if you keep the dab in proportion to the thermal mass the results should be the same in terms of flavor. It's like the difference between the 20 and 30mm liger. The 20 mm is like a taster, while the 30 is better for heavy users. I'm definitely noticing better flavors when I do a large but not ginormous dabs.

At some point the high thermal transfer rate of the obsidian might make it better than Sapphire for giant multi-inhale dabs.

 

[Anon3200]

Dude you say the liger sucks but you bought three of them and five sapphires from the CCA? Lol that does not make sense. I think your bias because your new buddies are hooking you up.

 

[Hogni]

I think there is no reason for bashing each other. But theory of Anon sounds interesting. For sure there are some scientific basics to find about.

 

[Anon3200]

It's funny when people don't want to believe a MIT educated engineers. About 30 years ago the same dude was working at a company that produces and sells medical lab equipment. They were making devices do surgery using electricity. This guy actually invented the adhesive that they used to transfer the energy.

Anyway the higher-ups wanted to use stainless steel cutting blades for this electrosurgery machine. do told them know you need to plate in gold or used titanium. They didn't listen to him and they were multimillion-dollar lawsuits.

Anyway as far as I know only titanium, gold, and platinum have been approved to be used in the human body due to their corrosion and chemical resistance.

Trust me if they can use titanium for implants inside your body and not have them rest from all the salt in your blood then you good... The metal is not going to react chemically to Vapor traveling though an inch and a half of titanium.

 

[Baron23]

I have a Liger, 20mm, v2 w-obsidian and SiC inserts. I love it and the taste is comparable to my D-nail SiC Halo and no bad it Ti flavor.

The only time I got a rotten taste in my Liger was when live resin became available in my recently med legal state. But I dropped my temps down 40 degrees and it then tasted lovely.

I also have a @710Coils 25mm banger and coil set that I’m just starting to use. Simple, no drop down needed and it has the best taste of the three by a small margin.

Love my @710Coils kit but I’m not giving up my Liger. IMO, mine is the best Liger design he has put out.

 

[Anon3200]

The thing about live resin and the newer concentrates is the terpenes that are very fragile chemically. That is why they have to freeze the material right after it's grown to make it. These terpenes will degrade at regular temperatures, just imagine sitting in a 400-degree puddle.

The other thing will happen if you exceed the immediate thermal availability of your insert is that you will start fractally distilling your vapor. You will get all the terps first, but then the heavies including the nasties will all come at one time during the end.

 

[invertedisdead]

It's funny when people don't want to believe a MIT educated engineers.

Are you saying an MIT degree means they can't be wrong about anything? Does this person actually dab?

@Anon3200 do you yourself feel titanium produces better tasting vapor than quartz? As you've pointed out multiple times, titanium has far superior thermal properties. However, many of us feel that it does alter the vapor in a negative way.

Anyway as far as I know only titanium, gold, and platinum have been approved to be used in the human body due to their corrosion and chemical resistance.

Actually titanium is not as bio-inert as once thought. Some are switching to technical ceramics.

 

[Anon3200]

In theory titanium is better for transferring heat to an insert. It is also more durable and allows the manufacturer to use more complicated designs. The issue here is that dude is depleating the heat available in the insert. He needs to do dabs that are more appropriate for the thermal mass, to turn up the temperature to match his dab size, or to use glob mode so the heater coil is transferring additional heat though the titanium to maintain the temps on the sapphire (and to compensate for thermal lag). Also, are you using the CCA profile on your kubeone? if you're using a quartz profile instead of a titanium one then that's going to not be as good of a match.

Titanium is a better thermal conduit then Court. Quartz has higher thermal Mass especially if you're comparing three or four mm to maybe one mm at the most on the liger air.

The last time I was able to get dabs for less than 15 / G, I bought a QP but that source is gone and I just don't see myself needing to do penny dabs at current prices. I know things are different for people in other areas of the country but for most of us, a dab the size of a bb or 2 is as large as one really needs or wants to go on a regular basis. The liger offers an incredible weight to performance ratio, is extremely efficient, and produces excellent flavor with BB sized dabs.

I think these newer High terpene mixes have a higher entropy of vaporization, so they take more energy to vaporize even if it's at a lower temperature.

There is nothing wrong with using titanium in the way the Josh is doing with his company. I don't think it is fair for you to make these statements implying that his fundamental manufacturing process is flawed because it uses titanium, when that is not what is going on. He is selling the liger as a lightweight device. Maybe he will come out with a heavyweight device or find a way to increase the thermal mask for crazy people that want to take giant penny dabs at super low temperatures and don't want to use glob mode. The cool thing about him having his own machine shop now is that he can come up with these new designs and make small changes with high precision and high tolerances.

However if people are getting misled by your statements and believe that there is something wrong with using titanium in nail manufacturing then he won't be able to come up with new technology for us to play with. I know they're working on a bunch of new designs over there, for me I've been very happy with CCA products for several years and I can't wait to see what they come out with in the future!

I just plan for slow shipping times. I will place an order and months or weeks later it will show up generally on my birthday (for the last 3 years, oddly enough). He really should put 3 to 6 week waiting in his order form, at least tell he catches up on his backlog.

The problem with having a backlog of orders is that you want to work as hard as you can on getting them out but you also have more customers contacting you and that takes time from manufacturing. This happened to me at a former workplace seven or eight years ago. The phone would not stop ringing with people asking about the orders and we didn't have enough time to give as good at customer service as we like because we needed to get the orders out, also we were working overtime and not performing as well because of it.

I bet Josh raised his prices as a way to throttle the orders until he catches up. I know the dude is trying and says he is crazy busy still.

Those obsidian inserts are pretty good I would have taken a free insert if I was that guy or if I wanted a partial refund I would have requested it before going online to complain publicly.

Remember when his website glitched a few years back and allowed people to buy any configuration of liger kit for $99 if they change the color after adding the inserts and caps. One guy came out here bitching cuz he wouldn't the sell him a $700 kit for a hundred bucks. He got nothing whereas I was nicer and more patient and Josh actually came with a compromised for me after his stock numbers were better. I have been a loyal customer since.

Give him a break, I think the logistics here are a lot more complicated and difficult than we understand. It seems like he is trying to the scale his company to improve a logisitics but it takes time. Honestly I am amazed that the transition from CAD design to running an actual machine shop in-house went so smoothly. The quality of the machine work is higher than ever then the firm he was outsourcing manufacturing to and they have been machining for several years. That is an amazing accomplishment.

Let's see how he does after he is done with the backlog. If it still takes him 3 to 4 weeks to ship an item then I'm still going to buy from him.

 

[Anon3200]

So considering the liger air is a lightweight option. How much does your all quartz set up weigh compared to the liger air?

I guarantee you that if Josh made a heavyweight version with the same mass of titanium and extra Sapphire to make up the weight difference that the performance with your ginormous globs would be way better than quartz. Quartz is not strong enough to maintain sapphire to housing ratios of that titanium can.

Please understand you're comparing two devices with incredibly different mass and thermal mass specifications. It's not the vapor path.

 

[Anon3200]

@Shooby

Are you selling that Halen quartz ring because you are getting better performance from one with a thicker bottom? If so that sort of proves the factor here is thermal mass not Vapor path.