Cannabis or opiates or both?

[mikek9]

Fellow chronic pain sufferers, do you really find cannabis superior to opiates in terms of QUALITY AND EFFECTIVENESS for pain relief?

I know a lot of people are over prescribed strong opiates for more minor things that maybe Tylenol could help and I can see these people turning solely to cannabis for this reason as it likely helps manage their pain properly.

However, for those of you that find Tylenol and even all the way to Tylenol 3 almost a joke effort at controlling the type of pain you have, have you been able to replace your opiate use for stictly cannabis?

I personally find that it just isn't strong enough to manage the worst of my pain on its own and I seem to need the help of opiates. Not that I feel great about taking them, but I don't really have any other options. Edibles don't seem to work incredibly well for me and I require pretty high dosages for a proper effect, but they have come the closest to helping me with relief and for a reasonable amount of time.

How about you guys?

 

[rabblerouser]

I remember reading something about cannabis helping opiates be more effective, like you could use a lower dose of opiates maybe. I rarely vape for pain, unless I happen to injure myself with some sort of blunt force trauma, but that's pretty rare. The hard-hitting concentrates may help more for the pain, I'm thinking about keeping some on-hand for insomnia.

 

[Tranquility]

I remember reading something about cannabis helping opiates be more effective, like you could use a lower dose of opiates maybe. I rarely vape for pain, unless I happen to injure myself with some sort of blunt force trauma, but that's pretty rare. The hard-hitting concentrates may help more for the pain, I'm thinking about keeping some on-hand for insomnia.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22880540

 

[witka]

I try to stay away from opiates but it's inevitable with chronic pain, i think the neurological difference ( at least how i feel under the effects of both)

Cannabis, great pain relief, you still feel a little sore, but it's manageable and last a while

Opiates, great pain relief but short lived, last half as long as cannabis, perhaps better pain relief but it makes you feel like taking more, and more..So the risk of od, addiction etc .

Last time i was in the hospital for my back, i was on 2 oxys every 2-4 hrs, all day... I felt in a permadaze, craving more and more, and you can't function..

having constant cannabis is relatively harmless.. which is why i'm really trying hard to stay away from opiates.. especially with addictive personalities

 

[killick]

Chatting with a buddy about this today. We made him some very strong cannacaps (Magical Butter strong) 2 weeks ago, and he's been able to sleep full nights by taking 3 of them around 9pm, sleeping by 1030. He's off one painkiller (name escapes me) and his only complaint is that he would like to find something faster acting. I'm going to make him a 2 weeks supply of FECO caps and we will reevaluate his pain. Today he was very pleased with the progress he's seen. Ankylosing spondylitis and Chrones...

Personally I've been off all pain meds for the past 5 months, after 25 years of trying most of them out there. It's not perfect, but I'm not in hospital nearly as often as I was before cannabis, and I'll take that as a win.

 

[witka]

Chatting with a buddy about this today. We made him some very strong cannacaps (Magical Butter strong) 2 weeks ago, and he's been able to sleep full nights by taking 3 of them around 9pm, sleeping by 1030. He's off one painkiller (name escapes me) and his only complaint is that he would like to find something faster acting. I'm going to make him a 2 weeks supply of FECO caps and we will reevaluate his pain. Today he was very pleased with the progress he's seen. Ankylosing spondylitis and Chrones...

Personally I've been off all pain meds for the past 5 months, after 25 years of trying most of them out there. It's not perfect, but I'm not in hospital nearly as often as I was before cannabis, and I'll take that as a win.

If you want faster acting, you will have to avoid ingestion..it's by far slowest.. but also perhaps the longest lasting.. so yah

Sublingual (under tongue) seems to be around 20-40 mins on average

Rectally is 15-25 it also bypasses the liver, lessening the 'super high' from thc.

Nasal spray, i JUST made some today, seems to work in about 20 mins.. also bypasses liver.

I've never tried transdermal, but it also bypasses the liver..


aside from inhalation and injection, these are some other options..

this is a great read but very sciency https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689518/

If you want faster acting, you will have to avoid ingestion..it's by far slowest.. but also perhaps the longest lasting.. so yah

Sublingual (under tongue) seems to be around 20-40 mins on average

Rectally is 15-25 it also bypasses the liver, lessening the 'super high' from thc.

Nasal spray, i JUST made some today, seems to work in about 20 mins.. also bypasses liver.

I've never tried transdermal, but it also bypasses the liver..


aside from inhalation and injection, these are some other options..

this is a great read but very sciency https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2689518/

If your friend has Chrones, you should suggest rectally, may help https://www.hellomd.com/health-well...-cannabis-is-a-great-choice-for-many-patients

I make thc coconut oil in a suppository mold, and keep them in the fridge, coconut oil stays solid. it's a little uncomfortable, but such is life

Mod note: posts merged

 

[killick]

@witka - thanks for the pointers! Buddy tried a couple of my decarbed FECO chocolates last year and slept in a lawn chair for 6 hours. It scared him at the time, but now thats what he wants. I'm going to make him a bit of sublingual juice to try. I used some OTC vape juice mix with a bunch of bubble hash, filtered through a coffee filter and saw a blob, so licked it off the spoon. I swear I was feeling it within seconds... Might try this on him, as well, not that it comes to mind...

 

[witka]

@witka - thanks for the pointers! Buddy tried a couple of my decarbed FECO chocolates last year and slept in a lawn chair for 6 hours. It scared him at the time, but now thats what he wants. I'm going to make him a bit of sublingual juice to try. I used some OTC vape juice mix with a bunch of bubble hash, filtered through a coffee filter and saw a blob, so licked it off the spoon. I swear I was feeling it within seconds... Might try this on him, as well, not that it comes to mind...

Yah i guess i'm thinking of ways to avoid VG & PG

 

[witka]

It's scary when you watch any history show, fact or fiction and they talk about 'milk of the poppy' and how they basically only gave it to you for surgery without anesthesia , if you had got your guts chopped out or near death ... Now you get opiates for an ache or pain...

 

[mikek9]

If there is any way you can avoid opiates do it. Although many people truly need opiates they are a severely fucked up substance for human beings.

Always give cannabis the first shot at easing your pain and discomfort. If you need to take opiates do exactly as instructed always being very careful to follow directions and do not color outside of the lines with these drugs. Opiates are very dangerous to human beings where cannabis could very well be the safest substance we have.

I have a dear family member that needs long term opiate medication and so far there have not been any issues, but she follows doctors orders to the T.

That's pretty much my situation. I am, as a result of a few conditions, going to need opiates to manage my pain in the long term and probably for the rest of my life.

About 2 years ago I decided to qui taking opiates all together and over like 4 months I reduced them to almost nil. This was hell though, lots of sickness and gastrointestinal issues which cannabis actually helped me get through. I truly believe without cannabis I would have not been able to manage the side effects of withdrawal. And to remind you, this was done with my doctor monitoring and over 4 months very slowly and it was still hell.

Anyway, I managed to get about 6 months in to my opioid free life using just cannabis, but my pain was never truly managed the same. I increased my prescribed cannabis dosage from 1.5g per day to almost 4g per day just to manage the pain. The problem with this is cost since I don't produce my own and buy from canadas legal licensed producers like www.tweed.com and etc. Whereas some of my prescribed pain meds, Percocet, is covered in entirety by government supportive programs. My other pain med, OxyNeo (formerly OxyContin) is not covered by my current government supports so I have to pay out of pocket. But 1 month of a twice a day controlled release opioid like OxyNeo costs about $90. 1 month of 4g per day is 120g/month. Even if I can get it for the lowest compassionate price available which is 4.80/gram plus tax works out to $650 month of which I have to cover entirely myself.

As you can imagine I had to find something in between. So I had to go back to the pain clinic and tell them I think I need to be somewhere in between. Maybe lessen my opioid dose and supplement it with some cannabis. Now I get away with anywhere from 0.5g-2.5g depending on the day with about 2/3 the dose of opioids I was previously using.

Firstly, the pain control was my first issue. Over the 6 months of solely using cannabis my pain wasn't managed as effectively as it was with the opiates. Sometimes my pain is just too intense for even the strongest of cannabis and we get lab tested buds from out producers up to and over 30% THC. However, for more moderate pain it could control that on its own with edibles and vaping combined. The problem with my and edibles is my body doesn't seem to get as much benefit as others do with lower doses. I need at least 200-300mg for it to be enough help, but that makes me a little sleepy. This drastically increases my costs. Vaping alone just doesn't provide the length of time of relief I seem to need. I get anywhere from 30-45 mins of relief post session. The cost was my second biggest issue with solely using cannabis. It was made worse by my excessive tolerance/incompatibility with edibles.

So, as I mentioned I am managing with my prescribed pain meds (OxyNeo and Percocet) as well as 0.5-2.5g/day of vaped cannabis.

And you know what? I still have fucking pain. I'm sure those with chronic pain conditions can relate.

It never goes away completely and is greatly exacerbated by stress which in this lift is inevitable.

I also didn't mentioned I have several severe anxiety disorders and some other issues we won't get into now and cannabis helps me manage those as well, but similar to the pain meds, it just isn't enough without some help from prescription meds.

Perfect example is I have to go to the dentist in a few weeks and will probably need a cow's dose of Valium or something similar to get me through it. Cannabis just isn't strong enough after so many years of use to produce the "I don't care even though our first is in my mouth" mindset I need to get through it.

Any insight/challenges/questions are always welcome.

 

[killick]

Even if I can get it for the lowest compassionate price available which is 4.80/gram plus tax

And you know what? I still have fucking pain. I'm sure those with chronic pain conditions can relate.

It never goes away completely and is greatly exacerbated by stress which in this lift is inevitable.

I also didn't mentioned I have several severe anxiety disorders and some other issues we won't get into now and cannabis helps me manage those as well, but similar to the pain meds, it just isn't enough without some help from prescription meds.

I was only going to respond to the compassionate pricing question - some of them can be as low as $2.00/g with proof of income. Aurora is one, and I can dig up a couple of others if needed.

Yes - the fucking pain is never, ever gone. Our relationship with it changes. I used to have so many different descriptive words (it's like a blunt knife, about 3 inches deep, and twisting, then moved from side to side). Now it's like 'thats worse. Don't do that' and try to avoid it. I know we all deal with these things differently, but sometimes when it's really crappy it's nice to get some confirmation that there is still a chance it'll work for you.

3 days ago my final months supply of Effexor got tossed into the 'Phuck Pharma' A&W Root Beer lunch box that has been a permanent display on the side of the bathroom vanity. I look at it daily, and sometimes open it up, look inside, and realize the contents could quite easily kill several people without a lot of effort, including me several times. And then I grab a vape, walk outside, and play fetch. Even if I'm sitting in a lawnchair watching the dog do it, I'm still engaged.

 

[witka]

I'm in the same boat i've tried over 20 Nsaid's and multiple opiates... I guess it comes down to quality of life, do you want less pain the ability to somewhat function, or a LOT less pain but risk addiction and side effects, and also tough to function.

As for Canada @mikek9 I am on LTD through work... if you can make a good case for it SOME extended health providers are starting to cover LP cannabis.
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/0...surance-sun-life-jonathan-zaid_n_6881578.html

If you are on governement disability, I'm sure there are some programs to help..
I would get ahold of Cfamm.ca or nationalaccesscannabis.com/ see if they have some suggestions.. I'm sure if you are low income there is some subsidy

I am in the process with my LTD to get them to pay for my cannabis

 

[CurryLeafTreehugger]

For me there is no option other than the cannabis for pain control.

There is no pain med I have ever tried, including the numbered Tylenols, that AT BEST didn't knock me flat on my ass and put me totally out.

Then I get to wake up to headaches and nausea and grogginess for hours. Plus the uncontrolled pain.

Opiates don't help me, they just put me out and make me sicker and feeling worse when I do finally wake up.

I hadn't slept properly in decades, before the cannabis. I was so used to sleeping so badly that I didn't even recognize the deficit. I was so used to it it had become the new "normal". I was so used to the pain that I didn't even recognize the true level I was experiencing - again, it had become normalized.

Lately I've had more pain than usual - almost back up to pre-cannabis levels. But it'll have to be pretty dang bad before I'll even consider any of the opiates ever again. I am so much clearer, sleep normally, and everything is so much better since cannabis.

 

[rabblerouser]

see for me personally, all the few prescription opiates I've been prescribed have done nothing for the pain. The only effect I've noticed is itchiness from some of them. I swear by ibuprofen and cannabis for my pain. although opium does work on me. I think it's something with my liver enzymes, my Mom is the same way. just takes ibuprofen.

 

[witka]

see for me personally, all the few prescription opiates I've been prescribed have done nothing for the pain. The only effect I've noticed is itchiness from some of them. I swear by ibuprofen and cannabis for my pain. although opium does work on me. I think it's something with my liver enzymes, my Mom is the same way. just takes ibuprofen.

yah the opiate itch is uncomfortable for sure.