Cannabis-friendly Mental Health Programs

[phooka]

Hi everyone. I tried to keep this short but it ended up being long anyway. Thanks in advance for reading.

I'm not going to go into details about my story, it's beyond the scope of this forum. All I'm going to say is that I'm in dire need of some mental help to deal with my losses, anger, anxiety, OCD, childhood trauma, the list goes on..

I reside in a state where recreational use is illegal and medical is very restricted. Inpatient and outpatient programs that I tried all take urine tests and kick you out if you use cannabis. I've ceased the use of cannabis by my own volition several times for extended periods, but I reached the conclusion that cannabis is an essential part of my life. It has improved my quality of life on so many levels. I was suicidal before I found cannabis. I have needed mental help since childhood but not received it, partially due to all of my physical health problems taking precedence.

I have very little money and I would most likely need my insurance to cover the therapy. Does anyone know what's available that would allow me to use cannabis freely? The programs that I tried were very pharmaceutical based and federally regulated, and definitely just in it for the money.

I appreciate Buddhism and it's practices, and meditate regularly. I would like for my therapy to be very much along these lines, with an emphasis on herbal remedies rather than pharmaceuticals.

What is available for me?

 

[weenstoned]

Honestly not sure there is a ton out there. Most therapists probably are going to steer you away from Cannabis. I would suggest looking into online courses/programs which you should be able to complete on your own. Have heard good things about Ecouch: https://ecouch.anu.edu.au/welcome which is cognitive behavioural therapy based just hard to get the motivation to get started while depressed. CBT is supposed to be as good if not superior to pills as it focuses on retraining how you think.
https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome This is another course by the ecouch people that is also CBT based.

http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/resources/consumers.cfm This site also has a number of modules that look like they might be handy to work through.

Depending on the size of your city you might also want to explore seeing a doctor of chinese medicine or a naturopath. If you are down for that maybe also look into accupuncture? Also consider a private therapist who won't piss test you. I have been considering possibly seeing a hypnotherapist as I think that might somehow help with persistent negative thoughts.

 

[CarolKing]

I think going to a hypnotherapist is a good idea. I've thought about that myself far as anxiety goes. You have to be a real trusting person though, some folks have trust issues. Cannabis helps me with anxiety and pain.

 

[herbivore21]

Honestly not sure there is a ton out there. Most therapists probably are going to steer you away from Cannabis. I would suggest looking into online courses/programs which you should be able to complete on your own. Have heard good things about Ecouch: https://ecouch.anu.edu.au/welcome which is cognitive behavioural therapy based just hard to get the motivation to get started while depressed. CBT is supposed to be as good if not superior to pills as it focuses on retraining how you think.
https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome This is another course by the ecouch people that is also CBT based.

http://www.cci.health.wa.gov.au/resources/consumers.cfm This site also has a number of modules that look like they might be handy to work through.

Depending on the size of your city you might also want to explore seeing a doctor of chinese medicine or a naturopath. If you are down for that maybe also look into accupuncture? Also consider a private therapist who won't piss test you. I have been considering possibly seeing a hypnotherapist as I think that might somehow help with persistent negative thoughts.

Wait, what the fuck? There are therapists that urine test you? That is fucking unconscionable!

How the fuck can therapists purport to deliver help to people that need it if they are going to subject them to testing that could scare them off from even seeking help??? This is such an elementary oversight on the part of people, who with any psychological credentials simply should know better! As a researcher in the field with relevant postgrad qualifications, I am shocked.

How the fuck do these idiots even have jobs?

Sorry man the rage is not directed at you of course but fuck my psychological practitioner peers really bother me sometimes!

BTW to the OP, sadly, to get qualified therapists interested in medicinal qualities of cannabis, I had to do my own research, produce my own medicine and let them observe the results over a long period.

After using my research credentials and the established scholarly literature and many months of argument to convince them of it's usefulness, they now support my use. However, even these therapists still would probably not be likely to recommend anyone else do so. Scientific standards of evidence for extrapolative validity are extremely high, and rightly so!

Still, with legal hurdles moving out of the way, the research that we need to support more generalizable conclusions and less case-study specific ones is around the corner

 

[weenstoned]

@herbivore21 ya sounded absurd to me as well but in the first post he mentions in-patient and out-patient programs that piss test. I can sort of see how they might come to the conclusion that drug use is the problem instead of a symptom of an underlying issue/potentially actually helping it. Sometimes I think of quitting cannabis and wonder if I am an addict in denial trying to justify my usage as having medical benefits. Then I just think of the alternative of being addicted to prescription meds with dubious side effects as well as the fact that most people on meds still suffer from depression/anxiety.

 

[herbivore21]

@herbivore21 ya sounded absurd to me as well but in the first post he mentions in-patient and out-patient programs that piss test. I can sort of see how they might come to the conclusion that drug use is the problem instead of a symptom of an underlying issue/potentially actually helping it. Sometimes I think of quitting cannabis and wonder if I am an addict in denial trying to justify my usage as having medical benefits. Then I just think of the alternative of being addicted to prescription meds with dubious side effects as well as the fact that most people on meds still suffer from depression/anxiety.

That's what it is all about brother, is the cannabis effective at treating your symptoms, and are the other effects of the cannabis more or less tolerable than the pharmaceutical alternatives. In the case of anti-anxiety (although I must say, CBD is essential to get anxiety relief from MMJ IME), sleep medications, anti-depressants and anti-psychotics (this example is reflecting the research literature, not relevant to my case specifically) the answers in my case have been a resounding yes!

 

[weenstoned]

@herbivore21 definitely with you on CBD for anxiety. Trying a few high CBD strains about 2 years ago is what really made me a believer. More recently I have been able to try some CBD pills and extracts and am even more convinced. Feel so much more calm with some CBD in my system.

 

[herbivore21]

@herbivore21 definitely with you on CBD for anxiety. Trying a few high CBD strains about 2 years ago is what really made me a believer. More recently I have been able to try some CBD pills and extracts and am even more convinced. Feel so much more calm with some CBD in my system.

Definitely man, best results I have ever had with anxiety are with high CBD extracts. Also seems to diminish any negative effects from too much THC containing stuff!

Glad to hear you've had such good results with CBD too, I really want my psych peers to recognize this shit ASAP, it is such a no-brainer even compared to other medicinal benefits of cannabis! We even have the beginnings of an understanding of the mechanism of action of CBD as an anti-anxiety medication!

 

[weenstoned]

Ya I would love to give every anxious person who says that weed freaked them out after trying it once a puff of a high cbd strain.

 

[phooka]

one of my best friends from high school just blew his brains out with a pistol.

fml.

so far doctors say they can't prescribe desired medications due to possible unknown interactions with cannabis. Tell me to go to a therapist
therapist thinks cannabis is going to trigger insanity. Tells me to stop smoking.
inpatient and outpatient want to take me off the meds that actually help me (benzodiazapines) and also remove cannabis. They urine test and if at any point levels increase they kick me out of the program.
I'm sick of hearing "stop the cannabis. take prozac instead"

hypnotherapy.. accupuncture. like carol said you need to be a trusting person. I don't even trust myself.. plus it is my opinion much of it is placebo-based

ill try ecouch and moodgym. thanks for the replies everyone.

ultimately not feeling like a criminal in my own house would probably be a great place to start. thanks anyway, society.

 

[phooka]

Just popping in to update everyone.. found a friend who referred me to a local therapist who will not be critical of my cannabis use. First session on thursday. I think everything will be okay. I love you all.
::tears of something maybe hope but mostly sadness::

 

[herbivore21]

one of my best friends from high school just blew his brains out with a pistol.

fml.

so far doctors say they can't prescribe desired medications due to possible unknown interactions with cannabis. Tell me to go to a therapist
therapist thinks cannabis is going to trigger insanity. Tells me to stop smoking.
inpatient and outpatient want to take me off the meds that actually help me (benzodiazapines) and also remove cannabis. They urine test and if at any point levels increase they kick me out of the program.
I'm sick of hearing "stop the cannabis. take prozac instead"

hypnotherapy.. accupuncture. like carol said you need to be a trusting person. I don't even trust myself.. plus it is my opinion much of it is placebo-based

ill try ecouch and moodgym. thanks for the replies everyone.

ultimately not feeling like a criminal in my own house would probably be a great place to start. thanks anyway, society.

man tell me about it. They told me to give up the herb and take ssri's too. It worked out really shittily. I'll never take SSRI's again.

Cannabis is the best medicine for depression. I find that nothing lifts my mood like a nice dab of some especially tasty shatter or rosin or full melt bubble that I have extracted myself. I even find the act of making extracts therapeutic and I am glad that a psych that I didn't even seek out for this purpose can respect my use rather than fight it. Glad to hear it sounds like you've found one that can too, all the best with it my friend!

 

[psychonaut]

These 1:1 or higher cbd ratios are absolutely phenomenal for depression and anxiety. I have some that's 1:1.5 and all the worries in the world cease for the next couple of hours.

I hope you can get some relief in all ways and best of luck on the mmj side. I moved for my freedom and while it wasn't easy, the anxiety relief now being in a legal state is huge.

 

[phooka]

These 1:1 or higher cbd ratios are absolutely phenomenal for depression and anxiety. I have some that's 1:1.5 and all the worries in the world cease for the next couple of hours.

I hope you can get some relief in all ways and best of luck on the mmj side. I moved for my freedom and while it wasn't easy, the anxiety relief now being in a legal state is huge.

Yeah I hear you about the environment. I am currently seeking other places to live, but ultimately, this shouldn't be necessary. I shouldn't need to flee to another state away from my family just because my home state's cannabis law suck, especially at a time when I need them the most.

I think the world needs to wake the fuck up

Let me just remind the world, THIS IS A FLOWER.

 

[herbivore21]

Yeah I hear you about the environment. I am currently seeking other places to live, but ultimately, this shouldn't be necessary. I shouldn't need to flee to another state away from my family just because my home state's cannabis law suck, especially at a time when I need them the most.

I think the world needs to wake the fuck up

Let me just remind the world, THIS IS A FLOWER.

Most definitely my friend, and considering the alternatives that my clinical peers in the psychology/psychiatry give to people with depression/anxiety - I think it should go without saying that if somebody with these symptoms wants to take cannabis, that this should be encouraged!

How many people have no sex drive ever since they went on SSRI's? Even years after they stop using them in some cases?

How many people get more anxiety or extrapyramidal symptoms from this stuff too? How intolerable are the discontinuation syndromes from this shit?

What about the only pharmaceuticals that have worked with any success for actual relief of anxiety (for me obviously) when it happens IME - benzodiazepenes? This shit is as addictive as it gets, withdrawals are insane and the effects are pleasant too - gargantuan potential for abuse! Meanwhile CBD has been immeasurably helpful for me and I can dab the shit all day without a chance of getting dysfunctionally high. Doctors are cool with doling this shit out to everybody, hell, I was given benzos for DAILY use for my insomnia. What the fucking fuck????

I just laugh at people now when they tell me that my cannabis isn't the best medicine for my symptoms - I didn't reach this position with no experience of the medical alternatives! I am not some quack who is immersing myself in pseudoscience. I am a qualified scientific researcher. I am only interested in what rigorous research has to say about the credibility/aptitude of a therapeutic product. However, even without the growing body of literature surrounding the therapeutic potentials of cannabis and its derivatives, I can't overlook the obvious benefits I have observed for myself.

I had originally ended up settling for atypical antipsychotics which seemed to get me to sleep best. However, withdrawal type behaviours and a high potential for abuse are beginning to be discovered with the use of these drugs in prison populations too. The stuff also could often keep me asleep for 20-30 hours at a time if I wasn't careful with dose and even then! I lost so much more of my precious productive time due to this stuff! This is check out of life medication as far as I am concerned.

Insomnia is the one that strikes me as an absolute no-brainer argument for mmj: we already prescribe the most addictive shit out there for sleep and people like me can have trouble sleeping every single night! That is a recipe for disaster. Now with mmj concentrates, I can reliably get myself high quality, lasting sleep when I need it, without waiting for a pill to take effect (fuck I hate that shit). I can cease use at any time (and do frequently for a day or two at a time) without debilitating withdrawals. Also I can have a good day and not need any mmj and not have to worry about nasty withdrawal/discontinuation effects if things are going well and I forget to medicate for a day or two. My SSRI's and shit were not at all so forgiving.

 

[Chill Dude]

@herbivore21, I agree that SSRI'S have significant and sometimes long term side effects. They make you sick during the initial 2 weeks of use and they make you substantially sicker when withdrawing from them. The discontinuation syndrome is real and is really uncomfortable. Additionally, as you stated, they can totally kill the sex drive in both males and females.

I find Cannabis Very helpful for anxiety, insomnia and mood enhancement. As to Benzo's, they are extremely addictive and are not recommended for everyday use. That said, I do take klonopin on an as needed basis only for panic attacks. For me, cannabis is not helpful for a REAL panic attack. I don't get them frequently, but when I do I need a heavy dose of klonopin. IMO, cannabis is great for stress and General Anxiety Disorder, not so much for panic attacks. The problem is, most people that get prescribed a Benzo' end up using them everyday, build a tolerance and begin using more and before they know it they develop a serious addiction. I had a family member addicted to Xanax, and withdrawals were terrible and it took about a 4 month taper to get clean..

Now you got me thinking, perhaps a low thc, high Cbd dab would calm a panic attack. I know for a fact that a high thc dab will exacerbate a panic attack in most cases.. The problem is panic attacks are so scary that you really don't want to experiment lol...

 

[biohacker]

Great posts guys, (especially @herbivore21 - I always enjoy your posts) as i'm presently going through this in my life. I agree with most of what you are all saying, especially in respect to the SSRI's, however I just wanted to add some of my experience as well (and countless others that are dependent on cannabis, and have severe withdrawals).

I can cease use at any time (and do frequently for a day or two at a time) without debilitating withdrawals.

You're lucky. Like clockwork if I don't have my vape within 24hrs I start withdrawing which starts with ridiculous cold chills and sweats, debilitating insomnia, and it all just gets worse over the week or 3.

Insomnia is the one that strikes me as an absolute no-brainer argument for mmj

It's not a no-brainer. Many people cannot sleep while medicated, and whether it helps or hinders sleep still has yet to be proven, although it is proven that it can mess up your sleep cycles (longer slow wave, shorter rem, blah blah blah). I've been at this for nearly a decade....it started to help me sleep more soundly, developed into a major dependence, and now is having the opposite effect.

Fortunately my psychologist is cool with it, but mostly if I keep tolerance low, and use just the bare minimum effective dose. This is refreshing since obviously my psychiatrist is against it and just pushes the SSRI's. I know alot of my present health issues revolve around sleep, and i've tried to get off the cannabis soooo many times to see how much better I can sleep, and eventually it does happen (after rem rebound), but then I find a reason to vape myself to sleep again. Since i'm presently off work with my mental health issues, i'm thinking it may be the right time to do another detox and see what happens to my brain.

The problem is, most people that get prescribed a Benzo' end up using them everyday, build a tolerance and begin using more and before they know it they develop a serious addiction.

Substitute cannabis for Benzo, and that statement just described me perfectly. Presently at about an 1/8th per day. After a decent detox it goes down to like .1g-.5g.

 

[little maggie]

Just to clarify: most psychiatrists don't do therapy- they prescribe medications. If you go to one or a psychiatric nurse practitioner that's what you're going to get.
Psychologists, social workers and licensed counselors do therapy in most states. And they can't prescribe medication. A "therapist" who specializes in addiction is likely to discourage mood altering drugs. Otherwise I think more and more therapists are not opposed to "herbs". I think too many of you are jumping to an erroneous assumption about therapists.

In the very old days I went to a psychologist who discouraged my using antidepressants so I wouldn't "medicate my pain away". Eventually I said I had to do something and went on drugs and much later he realized that therapy works better if you have a somewhat functioning brain rather than one in total misery.
More recently I talked to my therapist (a rare non prescribing psychiatrist who does therapy) about my vaping. He confessed that he and his wife (also a therapist) had driven to a dispensary in a nearby state to try something.

If you have PTSD please find someone who is trained in that area. Not everyone is. And if you want to do it yourself- not ideal for PTSD- check out emofree.com or the most recent book by Francine Shapiro about healing one's past using a technique developed for trauma called EMDR.
And for a panic attack, try sticking your face in cold water for 30 seconds. Odd but it really works.

 

[phooka]

Just to clarify: most psychiatrists don't do therapy- they prescribe medications. If you go to one or a psychiatric nurse practitioner that's what you're going to get.
Psychologists, social workers and licensed counselors do therapy in most states. And they can't prescribe medication. A "therapist" who specializes in addiction is likely to discourage mood altering drugs. Otherwise I think more and more therapists are not opposed to "herbs". I think too many of you are jumping to an erroneous assumption about therapists.

In the very old days I went to a psychologist who discouraged my using antidepressants so I wouldn't "medicate my pain away". Eventually I said I had to do something and went on drugs and much later he realized that therapy works better if you have a somewhat functioning brain rather than one in total misery.
More recently I talked to my therapist (a rare non prescribing psychiatrist who does therapy) about my vaping. He confessed that he and his wife (also a therapist) had driven to a dispensary in a nearby state to try something.

If you have PTSD please find someone who is trained in that area. Not everyone is. And if you want to do it yourself- not ideal for PTSD- check out emofree.com or the most recent book by Francine Shapiro about healing one's past using a technique developed for trauma called EMDR.
And for a panic attack, try sticking your face in cold water for 30 seconds. Odd but it really works.

Wierd I just heard of EMDR for the first time yesterday, a friend is currently undergoing EMDR. I will find out out how it's working.

About the cold water, I have experience with this. Before my Radio-frequency catheter ablation, I had Supra-Ventricular-Tachycardia which would send my heart into a rhythm of 240+BPM. Sometimes I was able to stop it with cold water/ice on my face. The cold water contacting your face triggers the Mammalian Diving Reflex, lowering your heart rate and a number of other fun things. I love how smart our bodies are.

 

[phooka]

I met my therapist
She is a deadhead
Me and her together be like


my old Tx it was like

 

[herbivore21]

As one of the only people here with actual psychological credentials, there is so much I feel like I must respond to in this thread. However, my research work which said credentials entail is occupying the time I would need for these responses.

Just wanted to make this post to say to @phooka that I am so glad you have found a therapist that from the look of it, is going to work out well for you! I wish you all the very best with your therapy, my friend!

 

[biohacker]

@herbivore21 I hope you get some free time because I would love to hear some more of your responses, especially with your credentials, experience, and love for concentrates! This topic is front and centre in my life presently, and I refuse to take any pharmaceuticals so vaping is really my only salvation presently, just having a hard time experimenting with "dialing my dose". My psych just doesn't want me dependent on it, which I am.... but i'm working on it.

 

[phooka]

@biohacker Don't even worry about your dependence on cannabis. Your psych would probably be fine if you were on Prozac.. I'll be damned if that's any better than cannabis. and regarding dependency, Prozac is soooo hard to stop taking. if you want to talk to me about dependency, cannabis won't even come up. How about Deforestation, Oil, Money, the Healthcare system, foreign slave labor, GMO Pesticides Herbicides, ANY Pharmaceutical? I would say dependency on these should be a bigger focus topic than an herb... Let's take a look at the bigger picture here Doc.. Our environment is fucking TOXIC. Yeah I would get some minor physical withdrawal if I stopped cannabis right now, but it's minor. Especially compared to what I went through when I stopped taking just small doses of Lexapro, Xanax, etc. It's my opinion if a psych wants to stop you from using cannabis, they are not fit to be practicing!

 

[biohacker]

Just to clarify, the psychologist is cool with the cannabis, obviously the psychiatrist is not. I completely agree and wouldn't go near an SSRI (fortunately I never have before). I'm worried about my dependence due to its effects on sleep chemistry. Even though withdrawal is hell for me personally, eventually when I do start getting REM rebound, and my sleep gets better, it's an incredible feeling. It's just a balancing act i'm still experimenting with, and my usage always depends on my sleep. I've been finding with a good sleep, I don't even vape in the morning, otherwise I have to so I can mitigate the inflammation I feel in my brain.

I'm so fortunate that my therapist isn't against it...well, she's not for habituation and tolerance, so that's what i'm trying to presently tackle. She doesn't want me using it in predictable patterns, as to not have my brain expect it. She advises against alcohol and caffeine both of which i'm free of for several months.

 

[phooka]

@biohacker
I agree with staying away from alcohol.. that shit is toxic. In my opinion, Alcohol should only be used to carry medicine, ie tinctures.. because it is a wonderful solvent and increases absorbancy of medicinal (but also harmful) chemicals.

If you need a little caffeine, the content in green tea is much less than coffee. beyond 75mg of caffeine you start getting the jitters and 1 cup of coffee far exceeds that, 2-3x recommended dose of caffeine, and thats just 8oz... tiny cup
I stole this:

Beverage Caffeine Per 8 oz Cup
White Tea 30-55 mg
Green Tea 35-70 mg
Oolong Tea 50-75 mg
Black Tea 60-90 mg
Coffee 150-200 mg

You mention sleep trouble, I want to strongly suggest Valerian Root extract, tea, pill, etc. if you are having trouble sleeping. Acts on the GABA receptors in a similar fashion as Valium and other Benzos, but is a natural alternative. Considered weaker than Valium, personally I prefer the overall feeling of Valerian better than Valium. Some studies also show efficacy increasing with extended use, but other studies warn against chronic use of Valerian. Moderation is key.

You also mentioned inflammation, I highly suggest you use Chamomile tea. It has a nice calming mildly sedative effect, so it's great for anxiety and insomnia, but most importantly is a strong anti-inflammatory. Before I ever took a pharmaceutical, Chamomile was my go-to for panic attacks

I'm going to ask my Tx more about the habituation and tolerance as you mention, if it is something to concern myself with or not. I will say this, I used concentrates HEAVILY for over a year and it totally botched my tolerance. I spent a week in denver helping a friend last month and if my tolerance wasn't fucked before that, haha. ha. Got home and didn't take a dab for weeks until just yesterday actually, a friend had some nice Sour diesel Qwet . I've just been using my newly purchased E-Nano and it has totally changed how I medicate. I only use tiny pinches of herb and get baked. Whereas before It would take about 10 fat Dabs to get to where I needed to be, and I was wasting alot of time making oil too.. seems so silly now that I get such efficient flavorful vapor from the E-Nano. My heart is happier too. Dabs were kinda stressful at times.. but using E-Nano is like a sacred ritual

Wish you the best on your Quest