Big discussion on Reddit re danger of ceramic heating elements in vapes.

[OO]

Seriously, though... wouldn't running the vapor through some sort of water diffuser make any sort of "solid" material, such as dust, precipitate out?

Absolutely not.
The air is full of microscopic dust called condensation nuclei. If it was all filtered out, you would see no smoke following "water filtration".

 

[Dr. Plutonious]

So 7th Floor got back to me with this response:

I'd be happy to help put you at ease a little bit. I unfortunately cannot give specifics as to the components of our heating element, however I can tell you that it is the safest ceramic heating element on the market. We have run multiple extensive tests, and we have found that nothing is emitted while the element is at full temperature except for the small amount of residue left from the fingers of the person who assembled it. We've also kept the very first SSV ever made turned on all day every day for going on 8 years now, and there is no sign of any deterioration to the element. If hit hard enough, it can snap in two, but as far as splintering is concerned, there is none as far as we have seen with out tests. I do know that there are a lot of vaporizers out there that use a slightly lower grade element that has had those sorts of problems. However when it comes to all of the heating elements on the market today, we are using the safest of them. I hope this helps! Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,
Chris

Anyways, this basically has put to rest any minor concerns I may have had. 7th Floor seems like way too good of a company to rely on cheap parts and such anyways.

 

[vape4life]

8 years! WOW!!!!

 

[that herb guy]

Easy - Bake Oven? EasyBake Vape?

That made me laugh so hard, I had to share it with my husband.

Seriously, though... wouldn't running the vapor through some sort of water diffuser make any sort of "solid" material, such as dust, precipitate out?

If 100% of the vapor was being exposed to water, then yes. But the vapor comes up in bubbles leaving the inside 'chamber' of the bubble (can't think of a better word) that has not been filtered. If you're running it through a frit perc or 2-3 sets of trees, it is probably removing most of anything potentially harmful, but one natural perc, etc isn't going to entirely scrub the vapor. Also probably depends on the grit size of whatever 'dust' is supposed to be getting through, larger grit being more easily trapped than finer dust.

Honestly I don't think there's a HUGE amount of risk with this. If you're combusting, you're already receiving tar/toxins as a byproduct. And IF the ceramic were to crack I don't think it would throw a constant 'stream' of dust loose. If anything it might take 2-3 rips for anything that came loose to be drawn out but I wouldn't expect the dust to continue forever from 1 crack. And as pointed out, it's pretty common (if not necessarily smart) for those working with ceramics to work without masks, and that's heavy/constant exposure.

As with anything else just be smart about it. If you believe your ceramic element to be cracked or damaged, maybe it is time for a replacement, just in case. Even a little inhaled COULD be problematic for those with poor health or compromised immune systems.

 

[Norlin]

So guys, I think I may have possibly found where 7th floor buys their heaters....Nothing but speculation, of course. They look similar, but not exactly.

http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/7521675/Ceramic_Heater_for_Electronic_Soldering_Iron.html

 

[vorrange]

So guys, I think I may have possibly found where 7th floor buys their heaters....Nothing but speculation, of course. They look similar, but not exactly.

http://www.diytrade.com/china/pd/7521675/Ceramic_Heater_for_Electronic_Soldering_Iron.html

You are justifying your opinion based on visual similarity?!

My DBV element is different than the one in the pictures, and i don't know how you can tell apart between two ceramic elements of different brands.

Honestly guys, 7th floor has already answered these concerns before, Vitolo has smashed a ceramic element from 7th floor to test its durability, and ceramic doesn't just start crumbling.

I think you guys are confusing the ceramic in these elements from the ceramic in pots and dishes..

 

[Norlin]

You are justifying your opinion based on visual similarity?!

My DBV element is different than the one in the pictures, and i don't know how you can tell apart between two ceramic elements of different brands.

Honestly guys, 7th floor has already answered these concerns before, Vitolo has smashed a ceramic element from 7th floor to test its durability, and ceramic doesn't just start crumbling.

I think you guys are confusing the ceramic in these elements from the ceramic in pots and dishes..

I'm not justifying anything, and it's not my opinion, no. I was simply noting the similarity, though I can totally see how you would think otherwise from my previous post. Especially the "I think I know where they buy their heaters" part, I think I was more trying to suggest that possibility rather than flat out make claims I can't back up.

 

[misanthrope]

You are justifying your opinion based on visual similarity?!

My DBV element is different than the one in the pictures, and i don't know how you can tell apart between two ceramic elements of different brands.

Honestly guys, 7th floor has already answered these concerns before, Vitolo has smashed a ceramic element from 7th floor to test its durability, and ceramic doesn't just start crumbling.

I think you guys are confusing the ceramic in these elements from the ceramic in pots and dishes..

Not all of us have scientific minds. I did initially get spooked by the OP. Then I read further and stopped worrying... Then I noticed two ever so tiny scratches on my SSV's ceramic heating element and got a bit worried again (these scratches glow a bit brighter when heater is on and look grey when it's off).

I take Vitolo's experiment as a strong indication that this is nothing to worry about. It would bring me (and I'm sure many others) great peace of mind if anyone could confirm this and explain it in layman's terms.

Or should I be saving up for a replacement SSV

 

[vorrange]

Not all of us have scientific minds. I did initially get spooked by the OP. Then I read further and stopped worrying... Then I noticed two ever so tiny scratches on my SSV's ceramic heating element and got a bit worried again (these scratches glow a bit brighter when heater is on and look grey when it's off).

I take Vitolo's experiment as a strong indication that this is nothing to worry about. It would bring me (and I'm sure many others) great peace of mind if anyone could confirm this and explain it in layman's terms.

Or should I be saving up for a replacement SSV

The thing is, unless there is something wrong with the element as is not up to par in quality, ceramic dust doesn't happen like this.

I suggest you talk to 7th floor about the scratch but i highly doubt there is anything wrong.. plus, a new ceramic element is quite cheap i think, no need to get a new SSV.

 

[misanthrope]

The thing is, unless there is something wrong with the element as is not up to par in quality, ceramic dust doesn't happen like this.

I suggest you talk to 7th floor about the scratch but i highly doubt there is anything wrong.. plus, a new ceramic element is quite cheap i think, no need to get a new SSV.

I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday who is quite scientific. His surfer also has a couple of little marks like I described "It is just a symptom of something heatingup and cooling repeatedly - nothing to worry about".

I may drop 7th Floor an email, but with your post and his comment, I'm not that worried now. Thanks for getting back to me.

 

[MOTORHEAD]

Hey FC!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I was concerned about this when I found my way in here yesterday. Owning an EQ, I emailed Arizer to ask about this. I included a link to the Reddit post in the email.

Here is the response I received this morning:

Hi Jack,

Thanks for your email and taking the time to write us.

What you read is correct to a degree. The quality of off-the-shelf ceramic heating elements is very poor whether they're coming out of North America or Asia, usually they're cut with cheap silica's to save on manufacturing costs. Unfortunately these ceramics even find their way into low-cost ceramic coated cookware and the cheaper ceramic coated barbecue grills.

I read the comments from the poster, I even know the company in China he's referring to as well as many others. Let me be clear, this company in China and hundreds like them are the absolute cause of the problem. They couldn't care less about what product the heaters are going into. They have one goal and that is to earn the highest profits possible. They cut all their ceramics with cheap silicas and they also manufacture for the food and medical industry. The quality is very poor and they're well aware of it. I nearly choked when I read they expressed concern and said 'they should never be used that way' while they're correct in saying that, they're well aware of their contribution to the problem. They know for sure their products are being used for vaporizers, food products and related equipment. One of my engineers who lives here now is originally from that area, he's been to that factory and we received samples from them and many others years ago, they weren't even worth trying.

Ceramic compounds can be purchased in varying qualities depending on their intended purpose. Our ceramic heating element is custom manufactured to our exact standards, it's been that way since we sold our very first V-Tower. I've been in the industry for a long time and know many of the tricks of the trade, we won't have any part of it. Our heating element is very high quailty and far exceeds VOC testing standards. To the best of my knowledge no other vaporizer company in the world has submitted their heaters or heating elements to be VOC tested. Low-quality ceramics is nothing new, it's an easy material to manipulate so you can lower production costs. I don't just sell our products I use them to, we do not use cheap sub-standard parts.

Glass and steel at high temps have their own set of problems and concerns. Quality ceramic elements are the best by far.

The Arizer employee who wrote this included their name in the email, but I left it out of the quote.

 

[MOTORHEAD]

Here is my original email if it makes any difference.

Hi Arizer,

I ran across this trending article on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/trees/comments/18nk52/why_i_believe_vaporizing_can_be_more_dangerous/

Could you comment at all on this? Is this a problem that could be apparent in your heating elements?

Thank You

 

[Nosferatu]

Well I hope 7th Floor uses a quality one as well...

 

[pakalolo]

We all knew without asking that there are low quality ceramic heaters out there. We also know from that silly thread and other sources that the core issue—whether inhaling anything that they give off during heating—is at most a tiny risk, surpassed by just breathing in many environments. This response from Arizer adds nothing to the discussion except that their heater meets VOC standards.

 

[OO]

I would really like that employee to come here and share what knowledge they have, as it seems they know something about commonly used heat exchanging materials that we do not, and I would like to be aware of the risks.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

that employee stated pretty clearly that Arizer products don't have a risk.

are you asking about risk from other products? that sounds like an exercise left for the reader.

 

[hoptimum]

that employee stated pretty clearly that Arizer products don't have a risk.

are you asking about risk from other products? that sounds like an exercise left for the reader.

Since I use an Extreme Q and a Solo, I appreciated hearing from Arizer. I'd also like to hear from 7th Floor about the quality of their ceramic heating elements.

 

[Dr. Plutonious]

Since I use an Extreme Q and a Solo, I appreciated hearing from Arizer. I'd also like to hear from 7th Floor about the quality of their ceramic heating elements.

I posted an email they sent me in regards to the Reddit thread earlier in this discussion. 7th floor is as safe as anyone. Wouldn't expect anything less from them either.

 

[pakalolo]

The point is not whether Arizer or 7th Floor uses the highest quality ceramic heater, it's whether these low end ceramic heaters introduce any measurable increased risk if used in a vapourizer. Based on what I've read I don't think they do.

 

[OO]

that employee stated pretty clearly that Arizer products don't have a risk.

are you asking about risk from other products? that sounds like an exercise left for the reader.

The employee stated that there are risks with steel and glass. These would be risks I've yet to hear of, nor read anywhere on these boards. Their evidence to support those utterances would be valuable to many who frequent these boards, and I would really appreciate them sharing what they know.

Knowledge is power and I'm always interested in gathering more of it.

The point is not whether Arizer or 7th Floor uses the highest quality ceramic heater, it's whether these low end ceramic heaters introduce any measurable increased risk if used in a vapourizer. Based on what I've read I don't think they do.

Visually identifiable changes in the surface texture of the ceramic elements have yet to be addressed, so don't go locking threads.

There has yet to be a suitable explanation for why the texture of the ceramic surface is changing.
Are the particles migrating over the surface? Are more particles bonding to the surface? Or are there particles spallating from the surface as many have implied?

Either way it is an alumina ceramic, which means that you would be inhaling aluminum oxide dust, which I don't believe to be significantly harmful based upon the literature I have come across, but that does not mean that what I know is all there is to know.

mod note: Please avoid back-to-back posts, use Edit instead. Two posts merged.

 

[pakalolo]

The employee stated that there are risks with steel and glass. These would be risks I've yet to hear of, nor read anywhere on these boards. Their evidence to support those utterances would be valuable to many who frequent these boards, and I would really appreciate them sharing what they know.

Knowledge is power and I'm always interested in gathering more of it.


Visually identifiable changes in the surface texture of the ceramic elements have yet to be addressed, so don't go locking threads.

There has yet to be a suitable explanation for why the texture of the ceramic surface is changing.
Are the particles migrating over the surface? Are more particles bonding to the surface? Or are there particles spallating from the surface as many have implied?

Either way it is an alumina ceramic, which means that you would be inhaling aluminum oxide dust, which I don't believe to be significantly harmful based upon the literature I have come across, but that does not mean that what I know is all there is to know.

mod note: Please avoid back-to-back posts, use Edit instead. Two posts merged.

I don't know where you got the idea that thread would be locked.

Everything else you said is correct as far as I know. I feel that I know enough not to care about that level of detail, since I am convinced it has no effect whatsoever on the risks in my life. Others obsess over such things, that's their choice.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i personally think spallation from plastic-ish tubing is a bigger problem then ceramic particle mobility. and that doesn't appear to have caused harm for anybody, either.

there was a passing reference to problems with borosilicate glass a number of months ago in another thread. since that is the basis of my vape design, i choose to ignore the issue. if borosilicate doesn't contaminate lab results, i am willing to believe it is inert enough.

 

[OO]

i personally think spallation from plastic-ish tubing is a bigger problem then ceramic particle mobility. and that doesn't appear to have caused harm for anybody, either.

there was a passing reference to problems with borosilicate glass a number of months ago in another thread. since that is the basis of my vape design, i choose to ignore the issue. if borosilicate doesn't contaminate lab results, i am willing to believe it is inert enough.

You see, it's statements like this one that really worry consumers. I'm sure it's the result of a statement that was only read from your perspective, but please try to consider how others will interpret what you say before saying it, it's in your best interests if you ever intend to bring your product to market.

As far as borosilicate not contaminating lab results, that depends largely upon the experiment, there are many experiments which borosilicate is not suitable for. Rash generalizations are risky things, especially when they apply to health and business, it would be wise to know the parameters of which you speak.

Which is one reason I really want to know the employee's concerns, I can't with good conscience come to these boards and give advice to others if I feel like there could be health risks that are known that I am not aware of. I want to help others make educated decisions, but I don't want to steer them into a situation where they will be causing themselves and others harm.

I don't know where you got the idea that thread would be locked.

Everything else you said is correct as far as I know. I feel that I know enough not to care about that level of detail, since I am convinced it has no effect whatsoever on the risks in my life. Others obsess over such things, that's their choice.

I have seen numerous threads on this board be locked before an adequate conclusion was reached in my opinion. I imagined an apathetic tone in your previous posts, and didn't want you to hastily end a discussion which has the potential to inform/educate.

Those who do obsess about those sorts of things are a large fraction of the readers of these boards. I do not consider myself to be one of them, but I want to have reasonable certainty that I am not bringing harm to others through my advice.

I hold myself to a somewhat high standard though.

 

[pakalolo]

I have seen numerous threads on this board be locked before an adequate conclusion was reached in my opinion. I imagined an apathetic tone in your previous posts, and didn't want you to hastily end a discussion which has the potential to inform/educate.

Those who do obsess about those sorts of things are a large fraction of the readers of these boards. I do not consider myself to be one of them, but I want to have reasonable certainty that I am not bringing harm to others through my advice.

I hold myself to a somewhat high standard though.

This thread probably should be closed. Frankly, I don't think it will do anything but continue to upset people who either have not done their own homework and are thus misled by exaggerated fears of possible unknowns, or who reject the evidence they do find because they just know there must be something wrong. I am hardly apathetic about issues like this, and I take pride in my research abilities. I determined to my satisfaction that it's just hysteria. I share your concern about not bringing harm to others though my advice, and I have no qualms at all about telling people that this ceramic heater dust scare is bullshit. I owe it to them not to let them get worked up over ignorance and paranoia.

 

[OO]

This thread probably should be closed. Frankly, I don't think it will do anything but continue to upset people who either have not done their own homework and are thus misled by exaggerated fears of possible unknowns, or who reject the evidence they do find because they just know there must be something wrong. I am hardly apathetic about issues like this, and I take pride in my research abilities. I determined to my satisfaction that it's just hysteria. I share your concern about not bringing harm to others though my advice, and I have no qualms at all about telling people that this ceramic heater dust scare is bullshit. I owe it to them not to let them get worked up over ignorance and paranoia.

As admirable as it is that you are willing to put an end to what you feel is a discussion which only breeds paranoia and speculation, think of how the others will see it.

I think that this discussion should be left open to allow those who think they have evidence to allow them to present it and make their case. In the event that they should fail to convince others or have valuable counterarguments presented against their case, what is the cost? At the very least we will just be putting fears to rest, and learning a little from that, or we could learn of a harm that hasn't been considered.

I like to allow everyone to speak their minds. Others will use their own to determine the value of what is spoken.