steven22 said:
... on my extreme, I vape from 170-225 C ...
Hi,
As a general note: for most, if not all digital vaporizers, the temperature listed on the display is
very unlikely to be the actual temperature at, on, or within the loaded herbs. In regards to vaporization, the critical metric is the temperature at the surface of the herb. Since the specific heat of air is
extremely low, measuring the temperature even a few cm away can easily result in differences as much as 50 deg C. To really know how hot the herb is getting in the microscopic spaces on and in between the ground particles generally requires either a very small thermocouple or infrared optical techniques and very careful procedure.
In regards to the Extreme, we actually purchased one of these units recently and explicitly tested to see how accurate the readout was in our Lab. The working parts of an Extreme consists of a heating unit base which has a ground glass coupling to a glass herb chamber. We know from physical inspection that whatever is used as a temperature measurement device *must* be in the base itself -- not in the herb chamber -- because there is no wire or optical path from the herb chamber back to the base. We therefore tested in two stages: 1) measuring the actual temperature immediately where the hot air stream exits the heating unit base and comparing that with value on the digital display, and 2) measuring the temperature immediately at the loaded herbs.
In regards to our methodology, we would assemble and place a K type thermocouples into the various measurement positions, turn the unit on, set it to the desired temperature and air flow rate, and then wait 15 minutes for the unit to fully and completely equalize thermally. Each time we experimented with a different temperature or fan setting, we would again wait an additional 15 minutes for equalization. It is therefore very certain that the results obtained are accurate and reflecting the real "best possible case" operating conditions in the Extreme system.
It is our observation, as a direct result of these experiments, that real temperature emitted by the Extreme heating unit is generally about 30 deg C cooler than the indicated Extreme readout, and that the temperature at the herb itself (another few cm farther away along the air path) is another 30 deg C or so cooler than that. Further, given that the ground glass parts have a relatively high thermal mass and that
most users are only likely to wait 2 to 5 minutes before using, the actual temperature at the loaded herbs is very likely to be even lower than would be expected from looking at the Extreme digital readout -- at least 50 deg C and likely as much as 100 deg C cooler. Furthermore, while the digital display and the internal heat within the unit itself are fairly responsive to requested changes in the temp setting, coming into stability within 15 or seconds, the actual rate of temperature change at the loaded herb takes MUCH longer -- at least 2 minutes later.
However, it is important to note that these systematic differences in temperature
are not due to any particular failing of the Extreme system -- it is an inherently difficult problem, having to do with the bare physics of devices of this type. For example, even if the hot air path to the herb were completely insulated, the temperature loss would still be very significant -- at least 60 deg C. (We tried this also). Altering the system further so as to measure the real temperature at the herb definitely helps, yet even that is not a real solution since now the real thermal mass effects are fully evident and the overall system performance is glacially slow -- taking dozens of minutes to respond to adjustments. This pattern is evident, for example, with the Purple Days device where it is expected that it will take a *long* time for operating temperature to be reached, and once there, for the device to be left operating more or less indefinitely so as to be ready whenever it is needed.
As such, if you are expecting a realistic answer of how the operating temperature of LB compares to that of the Extreme, you need to be aware that the "indicated temp" display is of very little relevance in regards to the actual operating vaporization conditions of the device. In terms of real temperatures, the Extreme *does* implement real vaporization -- it just does so at a generally overall lower temperature than is indicated on the display -- usually at least 50 deg C cooler, and perhaps sometimes as much as 100 deg C cooler, depending on timing, ambient conditions and settings.
Really, the discriminating vaporizer purchaser needs to understand that the presence of a "digital display" is much more significant from a marketing and sales point of view than it is from a user/functional one. It is the connotation of "digital displays are more accurate/precise" that makes units sell, not the actual real functional performance or correctness -- something much harder to measure and understand. For vaporizers, as with most home appliances, "good enough" really is enough for most people -- everything else is a sales tactic.
steven22 said:
What range does the LB offer in temps?...
The full range of temperatures,
inclusive of all possible operating conditions, intended or accidental, available to the LB is anywhere from ambient to full combustion at 233 deg C. Note that hereafter in this post, we will be referring to real temperatures actually measurable at the real/true surface of the herb. The
typical operating temperature of the LB while in use tends to center at about 200 deg C -- this is the ideal. Accessible/common usage technique can easily allow for anything in the range of 165 to 210 C.
Basically, under nearly all conditions, the LB operates significantly hotter than the Extreme. This accounts in large part for your observed differences in the experience. Different medicinally active aspects will volatilize at different temperatures. At higher temperatures, relatively more of the heavier aspects will be evident in the overall experience.
To get an experience with the LB that is more similar to that of the Extreme, you would need to increase your typical draw rate about 15 to 20%, and be very sure that the battery is not left in the LB for more than 2 seconds before or after the draw.
The one thing that is most important to understand is that the LB is designed to be about 100 times more responsive to user demand changes than the Extreme. Its not about accuracy so much as it is about immediate user feedback -- responsiveness. In other words, the actual herb vaporization conditions within LB can be changed very much more quickly than in the Extreme, making any true "apples to apples" comparison between these units very unlikely.
steven22 said:
... how many seconds with the battery in brings it to combustion temps?
Depending on the specific load (how dry it is, how finely ground, etc), the specific calibration of the particular LB unit and assuming zero draw rate conditions, actual ignition conditions *might* be achieved in as little as 30 seconds. For most units shipped under most conditions, the time will be noticeably longer.
steven22 said:
... one of two things im worried about: could the differences in experience be due to combustion? ... or is it due to me inhaling some byproduct of heated metals?
Neither -- the differences are due to differences in the vaporization temperature. The LB generally operates hotter, somewhat nearer to combustion than the Extreme under most conditions, and this leads to more/different psychoactive volatiles being released, leading to a different experience. For many people, this is a good thing, as those other ingredients tend to have more of the pain-relieving effects sought after by many medical users.
steven22 said:
If my weed turns black, it means im combusting right?
Not necessarily -- "combustion" generally implies a self-sustained oxidization reaction, whereas "blackening" merely indicates that a number of the more complex molecules have been broken down -- "reduced" to carbon. For example, it is possible to blacken nearly any organic materials in the complete absence of oxygen -- a clear distinction/demonstration that combustion is definitely not required for blacking -- ie, the terms/events are identifiably distinct. You will know for sure when combustion occurs because it
always results in ash -- generally a gray powdery residue.
However, blackening is not really that desirable either, for it indicates that at least potentially some of the medicinal ingredients have been overheated, reducing them to less useful compounds -- ie that less than optimal efficiency has been obtained. Usually, it is recommended that frequent stirring between hits be used to prevent blackening, particularly as it improves the overall taste.
-- Magic-Flight
