Benzene: Thoughts on the known carcinogen?

[chris 71]

By the way TAR stands for total aerosol residues, not the stuff used to make roads. When I combusted and smoked joints, sometimes I could get a nasty brown sticky residue gathering on the tip of the filter, and when I tasted that it was just horrible (same shit gathering in glass pipes and bongs) Now that I vaporize I get a brown sticky residue on my glass stems but when I taste it it's delicious and tastes like hash/oil... My intuition tells me it's a sign...

And isn't vapor "aerosol particulates" in the first place? How do you know if in your studies "byproducts" is not just "everything not THC" including all the good terps and flavs, all other cannabinoids and more?

this is basically the same idea i have about the ( tar ).
the tar is the stinky crap from the burning in smoking. the tar from vaping is the essential oils from the plant after being extracted using heat but not enough to burn .

these essential oils, which one would think would be much more nice and safe materials for our bodies in a sence of not toxic crap like in smoke .
but that doesnt mean that putting any kind of sticky oil in our lungs is good for them, espically if its plugging them up and leading to copd .

then againg maybe theses oils could even be good for our lungs in a maitence healing and cleaning way .
cant wait till the science catches up and we see some real answers..

 

[purplegrass]

sorry to bump an old thread, but was it ever found out if passing the vapor through water filters out some of the benzene?

and to clarify, these last 2 charts posted, so they are basically saying that vaping at the high temp releases more goodies while only slightly more baddies?

Also, the way I think of it, if smoking grass does not cause cancer due to the grass counteracting the effects of the smoke, then surely the much less negative effects of vapor are thoroughly taken care of by the holy grass.

but yes, COPD is also another issue, but I feel if you are only vaping and even passing it through water then surely it is not a problem

 

[C No Ego]

sorry to bump an old thread, but was it ever found out if passing the vapor through water filters out some of the benzene?

and to clarify, these last 2 charts posted, so they are basically saying that vaping at the high temp releases more goodies while only slightly more baddies?

Also, the way I think of it, if smoking grass does not cause cancer due to the grass counteracting the effects of the smoke, then surely the much less negative effects of vapor are thoroughly taken care of by the holy grass.

but yes, COPD is also another issue, but I feel if you are only vaping and even passing it through water then surely it is not a problem

Vapor has a tendency to open airways as an expectorant of sorts to help clear the airway...
the cannabinoids in cannabis offset some of the negative effects from carcinogenic smoke because our endocannabinoid system (ECS) has cannabinoid receptors that those same plant cannabinoids activate. ECS is our homeostasis regulating intracellular signalling system utilizing lipid crystalline molecular structures to regulate/modulate/toggle calcium ion flow for the health of every cell..

water filtrates certain particulates but thc/cbd etc is not water soluble only fat soluble.
after vaping through water in my bubbler the water is quite truly funky when done... it filtered something for sure and it left a funk in there so I'm glad it's in the water and not as much in me, lol.

 

[acolyte]

purplegrass - Like t-dub, I have also never seen any proof that there is benzene in cannabis vapor. Not only that, but I have seen proof that benzene is specifically not present in cannabis vapor.

Even still, I'm not sure where the benzene would come from. Is liquid benzene present on the cannabis itself? If so, it would evaporate extremely quickly. Source:
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/benzene#section=Odor-Threshold

< video of ether evaporating, and ^ states benzene evaporates 2.8x faster

Otherwise, I've seen it claimed it could be a byproduct of heating the cannabis. But again, no proof of this I've seen so far. I did find this study which states benzene, toluene, and napthalene were completely eliminated with all vapes. CO was eliminated with one vape, but apparently present on another vape.. yet it combusted after, which flooded the chamber and they were unable to determine the CO level, and I guess they didn't have the thought to try it again?
http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-9.pdf

I did find this web site which has this claim:
"Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200° C. (392° F), while combustion occurred around 230° (446°F) or above."
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/Study-Shows-Vaporizers-Reduce-Toxins-in-Marijuana-Smoke

But the only study they link to is the one I listed above. Which does NOT state that the vapor contains benzene at any point. Unless I'm misunderstanding and there's another study that does in fact state this.

I also just found this about COPD and nicotine vaping. Basically, there's definitely no causal link or anything, but vaping _nicotine_ causes symptoms which precurse COPD, including lung inflammation. They found that vaping a saline solution or non-nicotine vape fluid did not cause this inflammation, suggesting it may be the nicotine itself causing the problem.
http://thorax.bmj.com/content/71/12/1119

Of course, there are other chemicals in cannabis, the vapor isn't just water.. but I'm not familiar with most of the terpenes and what not, and what their effects on the body or lungs could be, positive or negative. So I'll leave that to someone else.

Earlier on, someone mentioned the study that "reduced levels of CO compared to smoking". But I checked that study out.. and unless I don't get it.. they're actually measuring the carbon monoxide in the exhaled breaths of the vapers. For a period of up to 6 hours after vaping.

In all of their tests, the smoking sample had higher concentrations, but the vapers had about 2-3ppm CO in their exhaled breath, basically no spike at the beginning at all, just a semi-flat line.

For comparison, this study says the ppm of CO for healthy NON smokers was.. 3.61 + or - 2.15.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611104000034

You can find the study I'm referring to by searching "Vaporization as a smokeless cannabis delivery system: a pilot study." but the official link is $$paid$$ so I didn't want to link anything here.

But basically I think this only proves the point of not having any CO, it's just a poor choice of wording in their abstract.

If anyone does have proof of this, I'd be interested to know. Not sure if it's a real health risk for myself but it would be important to the community. I consider fc the definitive source for all vaping needs so the information should be gathered here IMO.

 

[C No Ego]

purplegrass - Like t-dub, I have also never seen any proof that there is benzene in cannabis vapor. Not only that, but I have seen proof that benzene is specifically not present in cannabis vapor.

Even still, I'm not sure where the benzene would come from. Is liquid benzene present on the cannabis itself? If so, it would evaporate extremely quickly. Source:
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/benzene#section=Odor-Threshold

< video of ether evaporating, and ^ states benzene evaporates 2.8x faster

Otherwise, I've seen it claimed it could be a byproduct of heating the cannabis. But again, no proof of this I've seen so far. I did find this study which states benzene, toluene, and napthalene were completely eliminated with all vapes. CO was eliminated with one vape, but apparently present on another vape.. yet it combusted after, which flooded the chamber and they were unable to determine the CO level, and I guess they didn't have the thought to try it again?
http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-9.pdf

I did find this web site which has this claim:
"Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200° C. (392° F), while combustion occurred around 230° (446°F) or above."
http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/Study-Shows-Vaporizers-Reduce-Toxins-in-Marijuana-Smoke

But the only study they link to is the one I listed above. Which does NOT state that the vapor contains benzene at any point. Unless I'm misunderstanding and there's another study that does in fact state this.

I also just found this about COPD and nicotine vaping. Basically, there's definitely no causal link or anything, but vaping _nicotine_ causes symptoms which precurse COPD, including lung inflammation. They found that vaping a saline solution or non-nicotine vape fluid did not cause this inflammation, suggesting it may be the nicotine itself causing the problem.
http://thorax.bmj.com/content/71/12/1119

Of course, there are other chemicals in cannabis, the vapor isn't just water.. but I'm not familiar with most of the terpenes and what not, and what their effects on the body or lungs could be, positive or negative. So I'll leave that to someone else.

Earlier on, someone mentioned the study that "reduced levels of CO compared to smoking". But I checked that study out.. and unless I don't get it.. they're actually measuring the carbon monoxide in the exhaled breaths of the vapers. For a period of up to 6 hours after vaping.

In all of their tests, the smoking sample had higher concentrations, but the vapers had about 2-3ppm CO in their exhaled breath, basically no spike at the beginning at all, just a semi-flat line.

For comparison, this study says the ppm of CO for healthy NON smokers was.. 3.61 + or - 2.15.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611104000034

You can find the study I'm referring to by searching "Vaporization as a smokeless cannabis delivery system: a pilot study." but the official link is $$paid$$ so I didn't want to link anything here.

But basically I think this only proves the point of not having any CO, it's just a poor choice of wording in their abstract.

If anyone does have proof of this, I'd be interested to know. Not sure if it's a real health risk for myself but it would be important to the community. I consider fc the definitive source for all vaping needs so the information should be gathered here IMO.

Volcano vaporizer goes up to 550 degrees F and it does not combust... those figures at 446 F @ point of combustion are wrong....

 

[MinnBobber]

From the S & B US site with Volcano digital:
Temperature range approx.
40°C to 230°C
104°F to 446°F

Classic:
Temperature range approx.
130°C to 230°C
266°F to 446°

 

[acolyte]

One confounding factor is the distance between heating element and material. On the volcano, as well as my silver surfer, it seems there's a decent gap before the heat hits the herb, so it probably cools it quite a bit.

There's also the fact that temperature could be different across all of the material, both the volcano and silver surfer do a good job at spreading it around but the herb at the back definitely gets a lower temperature.

And in regards to so-called "incomplete combustion", or just little black spots on the herb.. Not really too sure what this is, if it's really a partial combustion or just a darker vape. I do know that any time I've been able to taste, smell, or see combustion in my vape, it has combusted a lot, as in, starts cherrying and you have to plug off the oxygen. It's extremely obvious it's happened. It seems to me that a partial combustion would lend itself to combusting the rest of the material very shortly after due to the nature of fire.. anyone ever seen any studies on this? Or have chem knowledge to really verify?

My volcano has never combusted with heat on max and even small amounts of very dry material, nor has it ever produced black avb.

In the ssv and mflb it's possible to get very dark avb (almost black in some spots, dark brown in most) or even a full combustion with improper technique (it's happened to me a few times).

 

[C No Ego]

From the S & B US site with Volcano digital:
Temperature range approx.
40°C to 230°C
104°F to 446°F

Classic:
Temperature range approx.
130°C to 230°C
266°F to 446°

I am one hundred degrees off, I think 550 or so is the actual point of combustion even though it can combust a little lower? Heck, 550$ was the cost of the volcano

 

[seaofgreens]

a little over 450 is about the point of combustion.

 

[EverythingsHazy]

Bringing this back to see if anyone has any proof that whatever benzene, or other negative vapors that might be released/produced, isn't released in the same amounts if you take enough hits to cash a vape load at a lower temp, than a high one.

What has me curious, is the fact that even though water doesn't boil until 212F, it evaporates at much lower temps, and at a faster rate as those temps increase towards its boiling point. Benzene boils at 176F, so unless it's being created at a certain temperature, heating it to 360F or 395F+ shouldn't make much of a difference, if you don't cause it to combust. All of the water and all of the benzene should be evaporated within a few hits.

 

[Razor]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/293015519479673883/

 

[shredder]

Maybe only somewhat relavent, but to get an easy but unscientific visual of what's going in your lungs inhale vapor from your rig through a tissue on your mouth as a filter. And then inhale vapor as you would normally, then exhale through a tissue. I was really surprised. The difference in the two inhales is what lands in your body.

 

[invertedisdead]

Maybe only somewhat relavent, but to get an easy but unscientific visual of what's going in your lungs inhale vapor from your rig through a tissue on your mouth as a filter. And then inhale vapor as you would normally, then exhale through a tissue. I was really surprised. The difference in the two inhales is what lands in your body.

I just tried this with my Flowerpot Showerhead and dry herb only... The end result looks like high quality hash!

 

[Razor]

Now we just need to test that sample and find out exactly what it's made up of. That would be a great experiment to see. It could tell us how long it stays on our longs and takes for it to absorb or get out of the lungs.

 

[Dirtrider]

Seems like any unhealthy components would be of very very small amounts. I vape only a fraction - maybe 1/5 of a cig in a day or session, and then usually on weekends only. Plus, it is vaping and not smoking. Very small exposure. Keep it in perspective - I see people worrying about this but still eating fast food, processed food, not exercising enough, and taking in other chemicals in their skin or car/house, and not watching their blood work closely, and not worrying about it. Look at the leading causes of death and focus on that stuff first, IMO.

 

[Razor]

That being the case, it still wouldnt hurt to see the exact compound that we're exhaling. It does go into the lungs and I'm sure accumulates. It would be wonderful to know exactly the compound being exhaled in what amounts compared to whats going in to know exactly how much is being accumulated and possibly how long it takes to absorb fully from the lungs.

Benzene is the only real carc i know of that starts around 392. Moreso what would be interesting is not only the carcs but the good stuff as well.

 

[Dirtrider]

Would not vaping above 390 be best? My max temp is 390. I start around 368-370, then 380, then usually 388-390 max.

 

[KeroZen]

@Dirtrider: short answer is no.

I'm surprised @pakalolo didn't chime in here as he's usually the quickest to put the benzene shiznit under a different light. But mostly it's about the fact that 1) it all started with a single study that didn't quantify the concentration IIRC and 2) some sources cite a much lower boiling point for benzene, so low we wouldn't be able to avoid it anyway.

 

[asdf420]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/293015519479673883/

Yeah, this freaking chart... is it implying there's more smoke than vapor at temps over 401F? "Smoke >= Vapor"
It says delta-8-THC is non-psychoactive, but it's actually psychoactive?

 

[Razor]

It was first published by 420 magazine so im not sure how valuable it actually is but as for delta 8

https://herb.co/marijuana/news/delta-8-thc

https://hightimes.com/culture/therapeutic-benefits-dabbing-delta-8-thc/

You are correct as for the vapor vs smoke. The more passed the boiling point you go, the less vapor your getting and the process starts to create carcinogens. Thats because once you go passed the boiling point, everything is vaporized pretty quickly, leaving not a lot of other stuff to happen besides carcs, smoke , etc.

 

[Dirtrider]

I want to add that different vapes heat differently. For one of my vapes I can go to 400 without getting any bad taste but another I am limited to 390. Another gets a bit bad at 384 (has presets). Just saying that the temp read out on different vapes is not always that accurate. I consider it a reference guide for just that vape. I end up going by the temp guide, taste, and how the herb looks after vaping.

 

[asdf420]

yeah, I had read the first one. It's right in the title, says it's psychoactive yet the chart says it's not
that makes it sound like you might as well just smoke if you are vaping at 400F or above... yet if combustion is not occurring, it's probably not that bad. And doesn't "smoke" require combustion to happen?

 

[looney2nz]

yeah, I had read the first one. It's right in the title, says it's psychoactive yet the chart says it's not
that makes it sound like you might as well just smoke if you are vaping at 400F or above... yet if combustion is not occurring, it's probably not that bad. And doesn't "smoke" require combustion to happen?

the temperature that pyrolysis begins in cannabis and pyrolytic compounds are produced, seems to be a moving target as well... some links say 450F, others say 392F and others refer to the temp of a joint, which start around 600-700F.

https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/vaping-versus-dabbing-why-you-should-care-about-heat

http://vaporizertemp.com/components-cannabis-terpene-boiling-points-effects/

sadly items like THCv and CBC are vaped @ 428F, but according to the chart on the link above, Benzene vapes @ 392F

 

[Mulchmaker]

So, here's the thing everyone should keep in mind regarding benzene. Yes, it boils at 80C (176F), but that doesn't actually matter to us because it isn't present at all in cannabis at that temperature.

Aside from the one 2001 NORML study that implied benzene's presence in cannabis, I have seen no other information that suggests the nugget of herb sitting on your desk contains any intrinsic benzene. What is certain, however, is that benzene is a combustion product of cellulose, which obviously represents a large percentage of cannabis' mass. Benzene (along with methacrolein and a bunch of other nasty molecules) is also a decomposition product of the terpenes we love so much (myrcene being the most common of these), when those terps are heated. The good news for us is that myrcene's boiling point is 167C (331F), which is far below the temperature at which it begins to break down.

Long story short--don't worry about it. Unless you're burning your herb, you have very little chance of ingesting any measurable amount of benzene. Vaping is safe. Carry on.

 

[looney2nz]

So, here's the thing everyone should keep in mind regarding benzene. Yes, it boils at 80C (176F), but that doesn't actually matter to us because it isn't present at all in cannabis at that temperature.

Aside from the one 2001 NORML study that implied benzene's presence in cannabis, I have seen no other information that suggests the nugget of herb sitting on your desk contains any intrinsic benzene. What is certain, however, is that benzene is a combustion product of cellulose, which obviously represents a large percentage of cannabis' mass. Benzene (along with methacrolein and a bunch of other nasty molecules) is also a decomposition product of the terpenes we love so much (myrcene being the most common of these), when those terps are heated. The good news for us is that myrcene's boiling point is 167C (331F), which is far below the temperature at which it begins to break down.

Long story short--don't worry about it. Unless you're burning your herb, you have very little chance of ingesting any measurable amount of benzene. Vaping is safe. Carry on.

and with the lack of cellulose, concentrates might even be safer...