Ball vape with ss balls and induction heating

[Varden]

Probably not commercially viable, but I wonder if you could make balls with a core of metal and a covering of ceramic/ruby/boro. This way you could heat up the balls by induction, but the air would not touch the metal, plus you still get the benefits of the heat accumulation capabilities of the ceramic/ruby/boro.

 

[dtrdrk]

Im actually nerdy/stupid enough to have written an email to a manufacturer of balls in the eu. Their response was a polite „no“ but who knows, maybe another company could do it. But i doubt it, since it would most likely require the company to work out a process for this. They would need to sell thousands in order to recoup. And i personally know way to little about induction in order to be able to tell if it would even work. If someone else is more knowledgeable, feel free to chime in. I guess the only viable solution of a diy project would be a stainless steel injector with normal balls. As suggested by another user further up in the thread. Maybe a titan injector with a thin ss tube around it might work too?

I did think of an idea that might allow temp control this - maybe. Most injectors seem to be open on the bottom. And since the induction coil would not change position (stationary) during the heatingprocess, one could maybe install an infrared sensor below the coil, pointing upwards to the middle of the coil where the balls sit. It might work. I have no clue. It would certainly require lots of fine tuning.

i had just abandoned the idea of a passive induction thingy. But now im intrigued again. I might just try around with both ideas. Welcome to my adhd world

 

[dtrdrk]

Ok, I got an email from the china coil manufacturer. They can make a 24v coil with 100w. It runs on dc. So the pid further up in the thread should work, as it just triggers a ssr. So instead of feeding 230vac to the relay, i simply feed it 24vdc. I will also buy a 230v coil in order to test the difference. Supposedly the 24v one is slower. But i dont know by how much. Still, a safe ball vape is possible. It might be a tad slower, but it wont kill me. Guess ill take that trade off

oh, and he just let me know that the coils also accept 24vac. Which makes it a lot simpler, as i can replace the 24vdc psu with a single transformer.

 

[BreadStick]

Actually CH produces a 12v version and does sell the coils… its called the „tailgate edition“.
Its made for 12v car batteries as far as i understand. I wrote them a mail.
In the reviews someone complains that its slow to heat up and recover heat… im wondering if this is due to
Them running it off battery, or due to the low voltage.

To match the power of the 250V enails with a 12V enail you'd need a shit load of current tbf. I'm basing that off
Power = Voltage * Current
So unless there's an inverter that brings you back to 250V for the enail I'd imagine it'll be slow like them reviews say because the resistance of the coil is too big to push the big currents you'd need for fast heating. This would kinda defeat the safety of 12V as you're back pushing 250V across the XLR connectors.

I'd love to see a log vape with a PID controller, I think you'd be able to implement the fast heater response of the enails and the low voltage safety of 12V. That's assuming you can get a heater with low enough resistance to support that. I think I'm just describing a desktop version of the TinyMight which if they made a log vape out of that heater and controller I think it'd be the perfect log!

Edit: idk what way I went into this thread but the message I responded too was the last one for me and I just saw the new messages. Maybe double check the output voltage of that PID controller you linked before because I had a look at the datasheet and it only mentions 250V AC as a relay output. It can take DC power supply so it might use an inverter inside?

 

[dtrdrk]

Thanks Breadstick,
i understand everything you are saying, except for the safety concern. You mean by having a high current on the XLR the plugs are way above their rating? True, but I would simply not use xlr. The necessary current (around 4.2A) requires a cable diameter of 1.5mm anyways. Or were you concerned about another safety aspect? Regarding heating time, the manufacturer says the 24v coil needs below 1 minute to heat fully from cold. Sounds a bit too good to be true

Im most concerned about the 1.5mm diameter cable. As the manufacturer would have to install it i guess. Or can one resolder the connections on the coil itself? I doubt it….

 

[dtrdrk]

Thanks for your edit Breadstick,
i will use the ssr output to trigger an external solid state relay. So its the output to the right on your schematic.
It gives out 10mA@17vdc. Should work. The relay output will only be used to shut off the unit in case of overheating. My main concern is the cable diameter coming out of the coil. I wrote the manufacturer again to get an answer on this. Thanks for your input. I appreciate it!

 

[BreadStick]

Thanks Breadstick,
i understand everything you are saying, except for the safety concern. You mean by having a high current on the XLR the plugs are way above their rating? True, but I would simply not use xlr. The necessary current (around 4.2A) requires a cable diameter of 1.5mm anyways. Or were you concerned about another safety aspect? Regarding heating time, the manufacturer says the 24v coil needs below 1 minute to heat fully from cold. Sounds a bit too good to be true

Sorry I didn't word it very well. If we say that we wanna heat the enail coil with 100W at 12V you would need 100/12 = 8.33A (P/V = I). So we take the enail coil we wanna push 8.33A through with 12V and we can determine the max resistance it could be to achieve this with V/I = R, 12/8.33 = 1.44 Ohms. So if your enail coil has a resistance greater than 1.44 ohms you won't be able to heat at 100W using 12V. I imagine an enail probably has greater resistance than that but I could be very wrong and my point on safety is useless. I was saying to get around this lack of voltage issue manufacturer's might use an inverter to give 250V. This seems to be what the crowd that make the controller you linked does looking at the datasheet. That's why I brought up the safety concern around the XLR connector because you might end up back at 250V even if you supply 12V depending on the controller. Good idea staying away from XLR!

Fingers crossed I'm right with my thinking above and I've used the right formulas. I'm also assuming you want fast heating, if not I was waffling for no real reason .

A 1 min heat up from cold could be possible for the coil by itself but very unlikely once you add the ball vape.

Ah okay and are you gonna take the 24V power supply to the PID and use it to power the coil as well? Idk why but I was only thinking of using the outputs from the controller to power the coil. Best of luck with your project, I hope the manufacturer gets back to you soon!

 

[dtrdrk]

Thanks, got you now!
i hope the manufacturer is aware of this. I will ask regarding the inverter. Obviously it would be pointless if thats how it works. on the other hand it might still be safer, as the cable (where things go wrong the easiest due to movement) would only carry the 24v.

Actually ill power the pid with 230v. I got the pid for a steal - 30€. But its the 230v version. So ill power it with 230v and use a psu or transformer to generate the 24v for the coil. Thats the plan atm.

 

[BreadStick]

Thanks, got you now!
i hope the manufacturer is aware of this. I will ask regarding the inverter. Obviously it would be pointless if thats how it works. on the other hand it might still be safer, as the cable (where things go wrong the easiest due to movement) would only carry the 24v.

Actually ill power the pid with 230v. I got the pid for a steal - 30€. But its the 230v version. So ill power it with 230v and use a psu or transformer to generate the 24v for the coil. Thats the plan atm.

Nice one. I can't say for sure it'll be an issue for you but I'm wondering would you have to think about interference stepping down from 230V to 24V for the coil. If the PID controller uses a relay to apply power to the coil you could be dealing with a non-linear load that might cause problems. I'm hopefully overthinking, not trying to discourage you I just want to share anything I can think might be a problem.

 

[dtrdrk]

No, you are not overthinking. I also have that concern. Solution is simple: call my old electronics guru and beg him to help me out He is way more knowledgeable than i am.

 

[General Disaster]

Probably not commercially viable, but I wonder if you could make balls with a core of metal and a covering of ceramic/ruby/boro. This way you could heat up the balls by induction, but the air would not touch the metal, plus you still get the benefits of the heat accumulation capabilities of the ceramic/ruby/boro.

Just on that thought, and apologies if someone's mentioned this and I missed it, but have you considered a mixture of ball types in the same heater? Some steel for induction, some ceramic or similar for thermal properties? Playing around should find a good proportion, though the size of each may also be worth changing relative to each other?

The main issue I could initially imagine would be ensuring a distribution that works well, and ensuring there's no room for movement so they don't settle over time (heavier steel gradually collecting at the bottom). Would need Ti only (or other non-magnetic metals) for the head itself to prevent blocking the magnetic field, and possibly having to distribute the steel in a layer around the ceramics, or in a central core, to reduce outer steel balls preventing the mag field from reaching the inner balls, if that makes sense?
Personally I reckoned thin steel rods or strips inserted laterally into the mass of ceramic balls, at fixed positions relative to the centre axis of the head, would be easier to set up and work with in terms of tuning, and also final production line.

 

[Copacetic]

Great thread @dtrdrk!
I have been thinking along similar lines myself for some time now and just purchased a cheap I/H and a glass joint/tube (female 18mm joint with 22mm tube @75mm long) to try something very similar.
The tube is too fat to fit through my cheap zvs coil, but I'm investigating the possibility or reducing the number of coils in order to increase the diameter.

If you were to use a glass outer tube like mine that just fits inside your induction coil, say 22mm if you have a 25-30mm coil just for the sake of discussion, then you could place a short length of stainless tube inside it (length to match the 'depth' of your coil or the effective mag' field inside it) let's just say around 30mm long, again for the sake of discussion.
Hold the metal tube (something around 8-10mm diameter maybe) in the centre of the glass tube while you fill the empty space around it with 3mm rubys, then also fill the tube itself with the same rubys.
Leave the ends of the metal tube open for airflow.
Hold the whole shebang inside the glass tube with pipe screens.
If the metal tube which is now suspended in the 'middle' of a mass of rubys was of an appropriate mass to be the correct load for the induction heater (say 2/3 times the mass of a vapcap should be fine for a typical diy I/H?) then the heat it produced would spread both inwards to heat the rubys inside it, and equally outwards to heat those outside. Air would flow both through the inside and outside of the metal tube through the surrounding rubys and get hot. That might work?

My own idea is to use a ribbon of stainless steel foil (again, about triple the mass/weight of a VC tip/cap combo') inside the glass tube and simply pull air through while heating.
Or push a bunch of boro' rods into the stainless foil arrangement (think of a Cadburys flake/Galaxy ripple ribbon but made of stainless steel foil instead of chocolate) to provide mass to absorb heat from the foil for use without simultaneous heating.
The foil without the mass would be much faster though, both to heat up, and cool down. I imagine.

 

[General Disaster]

Sounds interesting, but isn't there going to be a risk of the foil melting if it's too thin? Also, I don't believe the eddy currents tend to penetrate through the outer layers, so maybe your steel tube idea would work better? Or possibly a steel spiral coil instead of a tube? But I don't know if inductors prefer a surface or are as happy with a thick wire.

 

[Cheebsy]

Re PID safety;

I have always been troubled by the use of XLR connectors too, but I had always thought my auber was correctly grounded. I'm sure I had read before buying it that that's was the case, and I just trusted it.

Reading this great thread today made me open up the auber to confirm. This is what I found.

I noticed the earth fly lead running to the XLR casing and assumed that grounding was being passed through to the case via the screws or that clip. I put it back together and carried on, intending to update this thread to say that the aubers should be safe on regards to being properly grounded. I then thought I should just double check the continuity. Too my surprise that fly lead isn't for grounding the enclosure, or at least it doesn't work that way. So I popped a loop connector on the end of another earth cable and soldered it to the tab. This has provided the correct ground to the entire case thankfully.

I would like to find a better 5 pole connector though and having found one yet sadly. If anyone has any ideas there is be grateful.

Thanks to @dtrdrk and @BreadStick for unknowingly encouraging me to check it out.

Edit: I also measured the resistance of one of my coils and it was reading ~520 ohms , no idea how typical that is or not

 

[General Disaster]

I know dick about electronics, so probably just making a fool of myself here, but I presume the socket on the right is the mains socket? Isn't that yellow/green wire coming off it to the coil socket, the earth? Are you sure the casing isn't being used as part of the circuit? I'm sure I'm wrong, would be interested in hearing why, but if not, could that additional earth you've added be dangerous if there was a short circuit?

Oh! Yes, I am making a idiot of myself, you're talking about grounding the casing, yeah? Sorry!

 

[Copacetic]

Sounds interesting, but isn't there going to be a risk of the foil melting if it's too thin? Also, I don't believe the eddy currents tend to penetrate through the outer layers, so maybe your steel tube idea would work better? Or possibly a steel spiral coil instead of a tube? But I don't know if inductors prefer a surface or are as happy with a thick wire.

I confess that I don't know either.
I do know that both my existing induction heaters happily heat my small sculpting tools, and they're approx 4mm dia (some are thinner).
I haven't tried the foil yet, and it may not heat, but it's fairly thick foil and I know it's used in high heat applications such as heat treating tools/knifes and forge work without melting. It's much more rubust and heat resistant than aluminum foil for example.
If induction heating does indeed require a tube like configuration to work well then it might be possible to roll the foil up into suitable shapes.

Re PID safety;

I have always been troubled by the use of XLR connectors too, but I had always thought my auber was correctly grounded. I'm sure I had read before buying it that that's was the case, and I just trusted it.

Reading this great thread today made me open up the auber to confirm. This is what I found.

I noticed the earth fly lead running to the XLR casing and assumed that grounding was being passed through to the case via the screws or that clip. I put it back together and carried on, intending to update this thread to say that the aubers should be safe on regards to being properly grounded. I then thought I should just double check the continuity. Too my surprise that fly lead isn't for grounding the enclosure, or at least it doesn't work that way. So I popped a loop connector on the end of another earth cable and soldered it to the tab. This has provided the correct ground to the entire case thankfully.

I would like to find a better 5 pole connector though and having found one yet sadly. If anyone has any ideas there is be grateful.

Thanks to @dtrdrk and @BreadStick for unknowingly encouraging me to check it out.

Edit: I also measured the resistance of one of my coils and it was reading ~520 ohms , no idea how typical that is or not

I wish I understood this better as I've just bought an Ali-express PID Controller with an XLR plug/coil!
The seller is supplying it with a UK plug with the third earth pin, but I suppose that's no guarantee that the earth is actually connected to whatever it needs to be connected to, to be safe.
I'm pretty certain that I have some appliances where the earth pin is just plastic and merely serves to locate the plug physically and the two remaining pins are live/neutral without any earth!

I'm also certain that modding my PID as you have done, with my lack of understanding would be even more dangerous than a shonky Ali-X PID would be out of the box LOL!
I'll have to find a local sparky to check it's safe

 

[General Disaster]

I confess that I don't know either.
I do know that both my existing induction heaters happily heat my small sculpting tools, and they're approx 4mm dia (some are thinner).
I haven't tried the foil yet, and it may not heat, but it's fairly thick foil and I know it's used in high heat applications such as heat treating tools/knifes and forge work without melting. It's much more rubust and heat resistant than aluminum foil for example.
If induction heating does indeed require a tube like configuration to work well then it might be possible to roll the foil up into suitable shapes.

Experimentation is always the way! It'll be interesting to see how that pans out. On the thickness thing, now you mention it (sculpting tools etc) I remember seeing vids of IH coils turning scalpel tips red hot in seconds, and that's not a lot of metal in the field. Also, I guess if the foil has good contact with the ceramic balls (or equivalent) they'll be sucking some of that heat away as it comes in, so may help too.

I'm pretty certain that I have some appliances where the earth pin is just plastic and merely serves to locate the plug physically and the two remaining pins are live/neutral without any earth!

That sounds familiar (I'm UK as well), the plastic earth. I may be wrong but I think it depends on the sort of current it draws, something like a 13amp fused plug should always have an earth, I think.
e.g. My USB charger has a plastic earth.

 

[Cheebsy]

Oh! Yes, I am making a idiot of myself, you're talking about grounding the casing, yeah? Sorry!
Just seems odd having that grey/black wire going to casing too?

Yeah, the circuit was grounded correctly, but the casing wasn't. The connector on the right is the back of the kettle type socket. If either the live or neutral somehow became in contact with the casing (spilled drink, loose connection, something else) you could get a nasty sock as your body would become the earth. With the CPC ( UK electrician talk for earth inside your household wiring, stands for central productive circuit) any short to the enclosure dissipates through your household earth safely, probably tripping a safety device.

but I suppose that's no guarantee that the earth is actually connected to whatever it needs to be connected to, to be safe.

Unfortunately not. Most of the world uses 110v which is safer in some regards and will do less damage in a short. Unfortunately this means a lot of stuff sourced from abroad doesn't comply.

I'm pretty certain that I have some appliances where the earth pin is just plastic and merely serves to locate the plug physically and the two remaining pins are live/neutral without any earth!

That's correct. That's known as a class 2 device and has different insulation rules that basically make it much harder for an accidental short to occur.

Here's a link for anyone technically interested in the differences.

Class I and Class II Equipment Explained

In this article, we'll break down these terms, explore how different classes of equipment safeguard users from electric shocks, and provide typical examples ...

www.pat-testing-training.net

 

[General Disaster]

Yeah, the circuit was grounded correctly, but the casing wasn't. The connector on the right is the back of the kettle type socket. If either the live or neutral somehow became in contact with the casing (spilled drink, loose connection, something else) you could get a nasty sock as your body would become the earth. With the CPC ( UK electrician talk for earth inside your household wiring, stands for central productive circuit) any short to the enclosure dissipates through your household earth safely, probably tripping a safety device.


Unfortunately not. Most of the world uses 110v which is safer in some regards and will do less damage in a short. Unfortunately this means a lot of stuff sourced from abroad doesn't comply.


That's correct. That's known as a class 2 device and has different insulation rules that basically make it much harder for an accidental short to occur.

Here's a link for anyone technically interested in the differences.

Class I and Class II Equipment Explained

In this article, we'll break down these terms, explore how different classes of equipment safeguard users from electric shocks, and provide typical examples ...

www.pat-testing-training.net

Thanks, good link. Is there any difference in the different types of protection according to the devices electrical load? What defines which method of protection is suitable for a particular device?

 

[Cheebsy]

Class 2 device are usually small, they often could be used in less than ideal environments, like the garden. Your electric mower, power drill, that kind of stuff is where it's usually used.

 

[dtrdrk]

@Cheesby
well done. Normally one would get the ground for the front panel directly off the iec socket. One would connect two cables to the iec ground pin, one feeding the according xlr pin, and the other one going to the xlrs mounting screw in order to ground the front panel.
Now, what your mod is missing is a locking washer between your cable lug and the front panel. This will make sure that the connection will not get loose over time and it also makes a solid electronic contact to the aluminum of the front panel via its teeth that will cut through the lacquer. Another locking washer goes between cable lug and nut, which you then tighten properly. You can add a second nut on top, or drop some nail lacquer on screw and nut for additional protection. Your life depends on this connection! When we build commercial units, we additionally scratch off the lacquer beneath the cable lug. A solid connection is essential. See attached drawing.
The tricky part is to make certain, that the front panel also has a solid electronic connection to the main chassis and the other front panel. Again, we normally scratch off some lacquer (where its not visible) to make certain, that all parts of the chassis are connected. I know it’s cumbersom, but thats how a metallic housing needs to be grounded for safe operation. Everything has to be grounded beneath the lacquer. Otherwise the gounding/safety is an illusion. If in doubt, contact your local electronics nerd. Hope i dont sound like a smart ass, just want you to be safe. Best

 

[Cheebsy]

Thanks @dtrdrk yeah, good point with the washers, I'll look for some if those, I think I've got some somewhere. I did test the screw heads on every panel for continuity and it was fully grounded thankfully. The screws go into a one piece body with panels on each end.

As for where the connection comes from, I agree that iec is better, but that solder tab was too easy to use! I considered replacing the crimp and adding there but this seemed more sensible as the cable doesn't have much slack.