BaKx (heating principle) inspired desktop vape

[highvaper]

I was/am very disappointed with the mighty+ - i had to get my tm2 repaired/replaced after hitting it too hard/often with a water thing in beast mode and it just couldnt handle it so rarely take it past about 7 or 8 now.

But the mighty+ is just so slow to get to temp and i just hate all the plastic - people rave about the cooling unit but i think its just plastic awful.

 

[TigoleBitties]

I was/am very disappointed with the mighty+ - i had to get my tm2 repaired/replaced after hitting it too hard/often with a water thing in beast mode and it just couldnt handle it so rarely take it past about 7 or 8 now.

But the mighty+ is just so slow to get to temp and i just hate all the plastic - people rave about the cooling unit but i think its just plastic awful.

You may want to look at the Solo III. I've got one on pre-order I was so impressed.

 

[highvaper]

I think i may have used one of their desktops as some point - with a whip type thing - was ok but didnt stand out as a unit for me.

Their portables do look nice but at the moment nothing has come close to the pure glass flavour im getting from my current setup with the tubes.

I havent used any other vape all week its just too tasty - in fact i had my first straw breakage due to it being too tasty me over salivating then dribbling a bit down the tube when it was really hot and a sizzle sound and ping when the bottom bit of glass broke off.

I have found if i hold it horizontally and let the straw rest against the tube wall you get really good conduction (if you slowly rotate the straw to even it out it helps as well) really bakes it nicely and you get very terpy pulls.

 

[TigoleBitties]

I think i may have used one of their desktops as some point - with a whip type thing - was ok but didnt stand out as a unit for me.

Their portables do look nice but at the moment nothing has come close to the pure glass flavour im getting from my current setup with the tubes.

I havent used any other vape all week its just too tasty - in fact i had my first straw breakage due to it being too tasty me over salivating then dribbling a bit down the tube when it was really hot and a sizzle sound and ping when the bottom bit of glass broke off.

Lol. I also drool a ton when I vape. Glass is so tasty.

I have found if i hold it horizontally and let the straw rest against the tube wall you get really good conduction (if you slowly rotate the straw to even it out it helps as well) really bakes it nicely and you get very terpy pulls.

I totally understand the love of glass. It's all I currently use right now in my setups. Mostly with a ceramic heater (DBV baller or Couchlog on glass) but I also have a Vaponic and an all-glass (bowl included) dynavap stem that I use with low temp cap as well as a Terpedo from TRRW which is just a Vaponic on steroids (bigger version).

I wouldn't underestimate the Arizer. The heater is ceramic and the vapor path is all glass. With the beastly heater and the new XL stem that can hold 0.6g I think it's a sleeper. Also does on-demand hits.

 

[highvaper]

Well while testing the terpcicle and element heater i carried on with a little side project to test lipo batteries - i have a few collected over the years and some have less life in than others - in order to power the element with batteries i wanted to pair up the ones which matched the best as i think its safer rather than using old & new ones together.

So with a spare pico and a few resistors and relay plus the one 4mm small tube element i made a little test circuit

https://imgur.com/a/e11CQw2

And with a bit of code it basically takes a volt reading from the battery and turns on the relay so the battery is under load from the element - every 5 secs the relay is switched so the non loaded voltage of the battery can be measured and recorded - if the voltage is lower than 3v and then it doesnt turn the element back on.

With a bit of copy paste and cleaning up the output you can then plot it to get something like:

https://imgur.com/a/8MiwsoH

https://imgur.com/a/15fE4Su

So i grabbed best matched batteries a,b & d and tried them out with the 2mm nichrome element tube - it worked pretty well - but only for about 2-3 sessions (5 mins per session) worth before the volt across 3 batteries in series dropped to 9v from starting at over 12v - these are pretty old batteries so wasnt expecting stellar performance from them so maybe at a push you could get 4 or 5 sessions from new ones. The load element is pretty long too so with a shorted one perhaps a couple of extra sessions.

I'll do a proper write up of the battery power tester if other people think its useful?

 

[LotV]

I'll do a proper write up of the battery power tester if other people think its useful?

This is exactly what I'm here for; love your passion and I'm always excited to see your progress and learn something new!
You dropped this btw:

 

[highvaper]

@LordOfTheVapes cheers - good to know people are enjoying the read - ill try and put a new post up as its pretty simple to make and i suspect a lot of people on here have a load of old lipo batteries they need to figure out which ones to replace.

20mm tubes arrived earlier and the next wave of testing has begun. The PID seems to be pretty good with it and is holding the setpoint with out any tuning from the 2mm settings yet.

https://imgur.com/a/4jOfUl4

The element is a bit under 1 ohm and limited to 80% pulls 135w. Will be doing extensive testing with it over the next few days to see how it compares with the 18mm tube and terpencicle - its much more powerful than both with the 4mm nichrome and longer length of tube being heated. Its balanced better as well so feels nicer to hold.

Not sure if i mentioned this before but in the bottom of the tube i have put a bit of glass to raise up the stem as the element doesnt heat the bottom bit of the tube as well as further up.

I did a test with a thermometer inside the tube as it felt hotter than the other one and its about 15C hotter inside compared to the thermocouple reading - im not fussed about the difference more the fact it holds the temp steady - im not overly happy with the thermocouple position on the tube but had grief getting it to sit under the nichrome - im beginning to think the sandwiching it between a bit of broken glass may give a better reading.

The tm2 stem thing works a bit better than with the terpcicle due to the extra length of the tube being heated and its also a bit tighter fit so more conduction too. Its also better than when in the tm2, you can pack a lot in - took me over 3 sessions work though one load.

Im finding the thinner straw the nicest so far the taste just outshines the tm2 stem or terpcicle - the main difference between it and all the other stems is the length of the chamber (like 2 inches long so a lot in contact with the straw inner glass) - all the other devices i have used/own have more of a shorter wider puck shaped chamber so less surface area in contact with what ever is heating it.

https://imgur.com/a/kqc0rzX

What is interesting is the taste is affected when i add the extra the j-hook thing to the stem with an o-ring to seal it like in the pic - its cooler but looses flavour - maybe the vapour has to be past a certain temp for certain flavours to come through or they condense when too cold? Some of the tastes i get from it i have never really had from vaping before its like an extra level of terps have been unlocked. The draw is tighter with the thin straw but it really does depend on how you pack it - too fine a grind and its just too tight - too loose is ok as it packs itself up the straw when you pull - i find a finger picked apart bud or course grind is probably best - a "rolled" popcorn bud is nice too.

 

[highvaper]

After about day of using the 20mm tube with the 4mm nichrome and its too powerful - the element is too far up the tube so most of the straw gets hot and has less cooling effect. Im not sure if the extra few mm diameter of the main tube is making much of a difference other than allowing the wider tm2 stem in.

I have been taking some readings of the inner tube temperatures and its a lot higher than the outer temperature with both the 4mm nichrome + 20mm tube as well as the 2mm nichrome and 18mm tube - both are at least 15C higher than the outer thermocouple and gets higher as the setpoint is raised like to about 20C difference.

I did think the inner part would be cooler but it makes sense for it to be hotter as the air is trapped inside the coil so will build up heat unlike the outer side where it can dissipate into the room.

However if i take readings from inside of the straw then temps are much lower and are only about 5C out but that depends on how long the straw has been sitting in the tube for / hot it was to start with.

So maybe the best thing to do is assume the straw is the same temp as the tube and then add an approximate tube temp value to the home screen - i will have to work out what the temp differences are depending on the setpoint as the higher the setpoint the greater the difference - this will be unique per tube coil setups i think and would need to be tuned like the pid - it should be possible to automate this data gathering.

However i do have another idea - as i got about 20 of the 20cm tubes and finally a dremel plus some diamond tiny drill bits i may try and drill a 1mm hole into the tube hopefully just enough for the thermocouple to pop in.

Also when out and about doing a food shop i spotted some glass drinking straws basically like these:

Amazon.com

Only a few $ so couldnt get them home fast enough. There are 4 x straight and 4 x bent long straws with OD 10mm and ID 6mm - they are 10" long so nearly double the current 12mm OD purple straws i have been using and a bit too long.

But what i actually got the pack for was the smoothie/bubble tea straws which are also a bit long at 9" but have OD 14mm and ID 10mm

So out of my plain straws i have 6mm, 8mm and 10mm inner diameters - all of them have roughly the same wall thickness.

https://imgur.com/a/WutNcem

I wired up the trusty 18mm tube with the 2mm nichrome as im quite comfortable with it as its been my daily driver for a while now so thought best to use to compare the stems with.

At first i gave the smoothie straw a go - it took a lot of weed and took me a while to work through it - i preferred it to the tm2 hook stem thing - was a very tight fit with the 18mm tube but worked nicely and was good with a fine grind.

Out of curiosity i tried the long 6mm ID one - i wasnt expecting much but was very surprised as it was much more flavoursome than the 10mm and very similar to the 8mm one i have become accustomed to. Also as the draw was so tight it lasted a good session length and a few minutes longer at a much higher temp to finish it off. I tried with some pretty loose large bits and it worked really well - 5 min session with very little bud used.

I have 8 of the 6mm ID ones and the dremel with some diamond cutting disks so hopefully can cut one to a more suitable length without breaking too many as I think they are too long and cooling the vapour too much so killing a bit of the terps but not sure on that yet - it is a bit too long for me and prefer the feel of the shorter purple ones.

Next thing to try is a range of similar ID tubes but with 1mm walls rather than 2mm and also would be good to try ID of 7mm and 9mm.

So completely the opposite to how i was expecting things to go - never been much of a micro doser but that may be changing - i was thinking a much fatter stem was going to be better but it really is more about the chamber length than its girth

 

[highvaper]

Wow i wish i had got a dremel earlier in the build.

First go to drill a hole in a 20mm tube and all went so well that i didnt pull back fast enough and smashed the chuck into the tube and cracked it. Second attempt was perfect and a naked thermocouple fits just right and think some of the PTFE stuff will seal the hole but dont think its even needed other than to protect the thermocouple glass weave lining once i remove the black shrink wrap stuff.

https://imgur.com/a/7AcZF4w

Next up was the bent straw with the diamond disc cutter - again went really well and was ok on first attempt - a bit skew but more than good enough after a few minutes rubbing the edge against some wetordry paper to dull it and is a much nicer length.

https://imgur.com/a/vC5LxQY

So will be working on a 20mm build with an internal thermocouple - im drifting from the pure glass spec with the little bit of thermocouple metal in the tube - also the dremel requirement for the hole or some way to get a hole drilled.

Also i have a nice little routine going with the thin stem - 4 of them = 1 of the 10mm ID ones so i enjoy 4 sessions of lovely terpy goodness followed by a finishing off of the abv from the 4 sessions in a single 10mm ID one up to about 240C - just fits into my small water adaptor too.

 

[Cheebsy]

Nice one with the dremel mate! I hope you used plenty of water whilst cutting. That dust is no joke if you breath it in, and it's good for the cutting edge.

If you have access to a large torch you can flame polish the cut end. Just heat it up and the roughness will start to smooth itself out, keep taking the straw out of the flame to have a look. A gas hob might work too if you don't have a torch but it might take a little longer.

All my electronics arrived , now to find the time to tinker. Thanks again for all your detailed posts.

 

[highvaper]

@Cheebsy - amazed i have lived so long without one

Cheers for the tip to take off the edge have just blasted it with two decent butane torches and its smoothed it out nicely. I did all the drilling outside dribbling a bit of water on it while drilling/cutting - i didnt have a dust mask so will bear that in mind but was using eye protection.

I have updated the repo with all the hardware pin stuff now at the top of main.py to make it easier to change pins when messing about as i am playing about with components in a little box and trying to figure out the best layout so moving stuff about so hopefully should make life simpler for you when having a play - do fire off any questions really keen to see how it works for other people.

Next iteration of the tube is coming along nicely - 3mm nichrome (typo in imgr title cant edit it) about 1cm higher up the tube than the current one - its around 1.2-1.4 ohms so expect it to pull between 100-120w which is within my power supply limit so should be able to run it at 100%

https://imgur.com/a/J2KcjUs

The thermocouple is poking through the hole - the ptfe kind of seals the hole so there is no airflow in through it.

Its hard to take a picture of as the camera doesnt want to focus on stuff inside the glass.

https://imgur.com/a/j2s0g7w

 

[Cheebsy]

Glad the flame polishing worked for you. It's an easy and reliable way to finish dremel cuts.

I'm interested to know if the thermocouple on the inside makes a material difference other than giving a more accurate reading. Looking forward to your findings.

 

[highvaper]

Just having my first few thin straws in the new setup now.

Its much more sensitive temperature reading wise and notices the inhaling - just having a bit of play with the pid tunings as the coil is more powerful than i thought and have limited it to 80% and its pulling just over the power supply limit at 120w. Also there is now a bit of a delay between the element heating up and the thermocouple noticing so tuning is not going so well with a fair bit of oscillation at the moment.

Still amazed how long a thin stem lightly packed lasts over 5 mins of puffing away - not thick clouds more like small tokes on a mini pure jay from my combustion days. For thick clouds the 10mm ID stem seems to do pretty well with the avb (not used it much with fresh - not weighed up how much it can take but has to be 0.5g and could take more if you push the screen up).

My idea with using a tiny might tube as a liner/heat sink is working with the thin stem and seems to keep the temps pretty even and helps the pid on an inhale compared to without as there is more mass to heat the air i suspect. Also as the 20mm tube is quite big i think it helps to rotate the straw if its touching the side so you get a more even conduction effect but you dont need to do this as much with the tm2 liner.

I do think i have set it to low in the tube and should have drilled the hole where i did the first one which cracked as when i inhale the temps initially rise as the air further up the tube is hotter and the fall once the fresh air has entered the tube so works against the pid. I think its better for the pid to know as soon as the cooler air enters and not have the temp initially rise which will mess it up. So will have to drill a new tube with the hole at 1/2 point of where the coil would be - may be easier to fit actually as working at the end of the coil where its get tucked under the victoria clip is difficult.

Temps do feel more like what the readings are now - like i was a bit confused as to why sometimes at 180 it was pretty hot after a few mins but the temp was the same as the start now its much more even with the temp staying / feeling the same for the reading showing at the start or a few mins in. Also temps wise - i use the screwball to finish off my abv at about 260c with a big water thing so have a fair idea of how hot 260C is - i have just done a big 10cm ID straw up to 240C with the small water thing and temps felt about right has hit me nicely - its a bit of a faff if you try and have the heater on the stem while using the water thing but is doable.

 

[highvaper]

interested to know if the thermocouple on the inside makes a material difference

Does the thermocouple in the tube help? - yes i think it does it gives a pretty good reading of the air in the tubes temperature - it also solves the issue of the pid keeping the element temperature stable but the tube getting hotter and hotter over time and keeps the tube temperature more stable instead. The pid reacts much better to an inhale as it notices the temperate change almost as soon as the air flows. When on the outside of the glass there is little change in the temperature when you inhale.

However it does bring up the question what is the temperature or where do you want to measure it. For example at the moment the thermocouple is at the bottom of the tube and in the middle of the tube it is about 10C higher.

Another example if the stem rests on the tube wall and its also touching the thermocouple when you rotate the straw so the part which was touching the glass tube now touches the thermocouple the temperature jumps up as the stem takes a while to transfer the heat from one side to the other - this temperature difference is amplified the wider the stem - if you rotate the stem slowly you can heat it more evenly.

The temperature of the weed in the chamber depends on how hot the stem is / if your inhaling or not and again the weed touching the wall of the stem will be hotter than that in the middle.

Also anything temperature tcr related is nonsense as my other thermocouple measurement was on the element and the pid held it pretty steady with the inner tube temperature slowly rising the longer it was on for - its all good keeping the element at a set temperature but if the tube/stem/chamber keeps getting hotter & hotter there isnt much point - im curious if the bakx suffers increasing tube heat issue and over cooks stuff if you have been using it for a few sessions without letting it cool off.

So my conclusion is pretty much it really depends on where the sensor is located as there are multiple temperatures in the tube, stem and chamber - for me i think i want to get the temperature of the hottest part of the tube and also allow the stem to rest on the sensor so as you rotate the stem you can see how even it is being heated. Also then when you inhale you have some idea of the air temperature when inhaling.

I dont think i have seen vapes state where their temperature sensors get their reading from - opens quite the can of worms.

 

[CaleidosCope]

Cool development.

In the meantime, I have optimized and minimized my system.
(almost) no "warming up" when warm (don't need to heat soak the herb/stem). Fast heat up. 1-2min sessions. Full extraction. Small footprint.

Der Senger / The Singe.

https://imgur.com/a/PcRufHU

 

[highvaper]

@CaleidosCope looks nice and neat - whats the ID of your stem?

I have been temped with adding some cooling balls or similar to the larger stem - i think that in order for certain terpenes flavours to be taste-able they need to be past a certain temperature and in a vaporised state and not condensed yet so by cooling you reduce the hotness of the smoke but also remove some of the taste.

In the really long wide 10mm ID smoothie straw/stem - you literally watch the vapour condense - like at the top of a kettle when its actually boiling there isnt steam directly above the spout and only an inch or so do you then see steam - its the same in the stem and the line where the oil in a stem forms is like a condensation point and you watch the cloud get thicker the further down the stem it condenses like steam. So back to the kettle analogy the most tasty bit would be just after the kettle spout and before you see steam.

So i think the thinner stem allows the hotter vapour to carry all the way to the taste buds but as its only a very small amount of hot vapour you dont get burnt and the condensation happens in your mouth and not the stem so you get to taste it all. I have noticed the cut down ID 6mm stem is more tasty than the longer one and not much hotter.

Do you have a really narrow stem like the glass straw i found? like 6mm or so - worth giving them a try and seeing if you notice the difference in taste - just let it rest on the inner tube glass and rotate it for a bit so you get it evenly hot.

 

[CaleidosCope]

@Highvaper Yes, the glass is one of those things. I'm currently using ID 10 mm. Wall thickness 1.5 mm. The Bakx stems are a bit thinner and have a wall thickness of less than 1 mm.
I have experienced condensation on the glass in every system so far. I think you will always end up with condensation somewhere before it gets into your system. Or it gets quite hot. I think due to the airflow velocity this should be rather negligible. My flavor in the system changes when I choose different temperatures. Senger/Singe is supposed to be what it sounds like. Very high temperature. It should scorch the trichomes.

But I will try different stem sizes and report back if there is a huge difference.

https://imgur.com/a/QV7IqWH

Now when I compare these two, it's interesting. On the one with the yellow beads, the indentations in the glass are closer to the herb chamber. I could imagine that this supports the heating process of the glass. But that's just shooting from the hip. (EDIT: A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE! ...just tested...Yellow-Beads with closer indentations won )

EDIT: And I'm just trying to find out how deep I actually have to put it in. I'm just realizing that I don't have to put in very deep at all to get a fast steam development.

 

[highvaper]

Yes you do get some condensation but the longer it remains as a vapour the nicer the taste i think.

Your chamber for weed is quite short and im sure having the yellow balls heated will help keep the temperature up and flavours for longer - Im using a very long chamber for the weed like up to about 2" of the stem is full so there is a lot more to get heated - will be interesting to see how you find a longer chamber in a thin stem

 

[Hippie Dickie]

for me i think i want to get the temperature of the hottest part of the tube

me too. this is the middle of the coil for my heater.

 

[CaleidosCope]

me too. this is the middle of the coil for my heater.

That is true for the BAKX too. But "all in" is not "very hot". At this point with the Senger I am at just lees than 15 mm ,from tip to stopper, dipping in. My Senger-Tube is 35mm total length. So it is not really in the middle. Maybe: Less glass to heat. I try to imagine what the air path would be... the deeper I dip in, the longer is the cold glasstem to get heated up. If you torch the glas to deform it (1.5mm wall) it is crazy how hot it needs to be and how fast it cools down. The heat distribution is so weak, your tip of the glas is melting and glowing cherry red ... and you can hold the tube at 20cm with no heat on the skin. The stem with the rubys took more than 10min to cool down to handle it. Glas cools down really fast ... (ruby's not).

 

[highvaper]

Finally put together a little box as i was getting annoyed with the breadboard version with wires getting loose and needed the usb tether to the computer for power.

https://imgur.com/a/lIpt6nd

It really is fairly simple just a plastic box everything fits into and also a LM2596 step-down dc buck convertor set at 12v -> 3.3v so everything is powered from the 12v wall supply.

https://imgur.com/a/bKbO2Vs

https://imgur.com/a/CL4esQt

Also remade the tube with the thermocouple in the middle

https://imgur.com/a/TzgtJty

The thermocouple now really reacts so fast to an inhale and you can adjust how hard you pull and thus adjust the temp of the air entering in the straw. Its really interesting to use and get a pretty immediate air temp reading and you feel how hot/cold its at the same time. I dont think any other vape i have used has temp readings which are updated so quickly so you see the inhale affecting them.

Im nowhere near tuning the PID yet to handle it though as its at the setpoint then you inhale and reduce it by 20C so it fights to get back to the setpoint and you stop inhaling so it goes way way past the setpoint trying to compensate for the inhale temp drop and inhale causing resistance to temp rise - I think the D part needs to be looked at for this more as until now i havent needed,


Tried out an idea with the smallest 16mm tubes i have which are a bit shorter than the 20mm ones and have a lip so sit in them perfectly.

https://imgur.com/a/k3REwbJ

Just need to be careful not put the straw to far in and suck up the oil - i over suck on the DC-V5 but having a test tube length you dont get oil splattering everywhere. Was really cool dialling up the temp and watching it slowly produce vapour and dialling down and it stopping.

 

[highvaper]

Some how i have managed to break a few of the tubes - the bottom got broken on 2 of them - i think the handle was set too low and when putting down/into the glass jar i must had hit to bottom harder than i thought. So have adjusted the handle so it hits the lip of the jar before the tube hits the bottom.

The next to break was the second one drilled the other day - i know it didnt drill as cleanly as the first - a crack appeared at the hole and followed the element round the tube and then met with a straight line between the coil. I got a good few hours use out of it before it finally broke.

So its a bit late to drill with a dremel and i am now using the first tube i drilled with the small crack in it - all is fine at the moment but will be drilling a few holes tomorrow.

Its quite easy to swap the tubes out - i do think the 18mm one is stronger - its made of the same wall thickness but smaller diameter - but if the wall is thicker it will affect how the heat from the coil affects things - would be interested to try 1.5-2mm wall tubes. Not drilled any holes in the 18mm ones yet.

Also been messing with batteries more - I got two x five min sessions from cold taking it to 220C with 2 molicell batteries (so about 7v) - was nice to have the whole thing battery powered - when the second session ended i started a third session and it kept above 200C for half of it but did drop off the other half. After i let it cool it couldnt get past about 150C. It would work well with a car battery just not that portable.

Its ok once up to temp but getting there it really burns through the batteries - I suspect you could do a single 20-30 min session provided you didnt let it get cool but for portable/battery powered i think the 16 or 18mm tube with less number of turns would be better as it would heat up a lot faster and use less power.

 

[CaleidosCope]

Some how i have managed to break a few of the tubes

same here.
0.9 to 1mm wall thickness ... is thin. I am looking for 1.5mm/1.8mm or even 2.5mm. a lot more glas to heat... in my scenario no big deal. It is really a challenge getting the materials. I know now how wonderland has to look like...

Right now I am thinking about getting glas tubes in various dimensions. The round bottom is IMHO not crucial (I think it is the unwanted cooler in this system). It should be no big deal to fire close the end of the glas tube and then cut the length. Test tubes are somewhat limited (wall thickness) .

 

[highvaper]

Yea i was thinking the same thing - some 2mm wall tubes with the bottom some how sealed

For me not sure there is much point going greater than the 20mm diameter the 24mm or 30mm test tubes are way to big - im thinking the 18 worked better for the thinner stems but the 20mm seems to have a bit better heat retention and can take slightly wider stems/smaller oil tube - perhaps a thicker 18mm would work well.

The top part of the tube broke off earlier so only had about 1/2 a tube so the bit with the coil on - i found i preferred the airflow of the longer one so maybe give some longer tube a try too.

 

[CaleidosCope]

That is my decision point too...50mm heater length...OK. Now I am at 20mm heating chamber, cool! But how to build a housing?! I am old and shaky . While yours are getting longer mine get shorter. I really have to try out your style.

EDIT:

https://imgur.com/a/fVodRiS

You know what I mean?