Arizona Congresswoman Shot

AGBeer

Lost in Thought
The part of it that kills me is the fact that people are willing to jump ALL OVER the political bandwagon and start pointing fingers even before the dust has settled. If you recall the Fort Hood incident, the media was quick to point out that we should not jump to conslusions based on the fact that the shooter in question was Muslim. This shooter has no real 'racial affiliation' (see - he was white) and it all becomes about politics. :mad:
 
AGBeer,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
Everything is political nowdays. :/ And it's sad isn't it? I bet there are folks who look at this and see a way they can use it. Both sides, not one or the other. Everything is a political football.

This was a nut. It's not like John McCain went over and shot Barney Frank or vice versa. This was a nut. But it's time to make political hay. :rolleyes:

BTW, since I don't listen to national news, I don't know if any of you know about the woman who was shot and ripped the second 30 round clip from the shooters hands before he could insert it. Already shot and still fighting. He then got another 15 round clip inserted before two men subdued him. Apparently one old man who was killed dove to cover his wife and took a bullet to the head, she was also shot in the legs but he covered her.
 
Purple-Days,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
Yes plenty of courage was shown. The 65 year old man who jumped in front of his wife and took a bullet to the head. So sad, but at least some true human courage and kindness was shown. The poor 9 year old girl who was very into politics and told her mother she wanted to help people. It is all so very sad. People need to be held accountable for fear baiting though. Maybe not immediately due to the horrible tragedy, but there ARE political pundits that spew hate laced lies and use phrases like "second amendment remedies". No one should think that's ok to say.
 
aesthyrian,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Purple-Days said:
Everything is political nowdays. :/ And it's sad isn't it? I bet there are folks who look at this and see a way they can use it. Both sides, not one or the other. Everything is a political football.

This was a nut. It's not like John McCain went over and shot Barney Frank or vice versa. This was a nut. But it's time to make political hay. :rolleyes:

BTW, since I don't listen to national news, I don't know if any of you know about the woman who was shot and ripped the second 30 round clip from the shooters hands before he could insert it. Already shot and still fighting. He then got another 15 round clip inserted before two men subdued him. Apparently one old man who was killed dove to cover his wife and took a bullet to the head, she was also shot in the legs but he covered her.

Ya know, I think, for the most part, what is going on here is not saying that he had any political agenda, but more along the lines of the fact that this situation raises the fear of what "can" happen when TV and Radio news commentators fan the flames of fear and hate. I as well as many others had this concern wayyy before this shooting happened and this, although more than likely didn't have any political motive, still raises the concern none the less.

And yeah, I did hear an interview with the woman who grabbed that clip, however, it was misreported that she was shot.
 
lwien,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
Lwien says, "this situation raises the fear of what "can" happen when TV and Radio news commentators fan the flames of fear and hate..."

Now this just came to mind... Ozzy gets blamed for suicides. Ozzy's lyrics incited my son or daughter to xyz... Somebody will be blamed for the crosshairs or an M-16. Or the evils of guns. Etc. etc. whatever the axe of the day that needs grinding (to distract you from more important stuff :cool: ) But, in the end it was just a nut.

Not making fun of your point of view, L, or aesthyrian, but I see it much the same as lyrics. What will you allow and what won't you allow? And are the words of one or any, who so far, has the right to free speech, justification for action by another? (I don't have to like free speech, but I have to tolerate it...)

I'm sorry, but I have to say, each is responsible for his own actions. I have heard some pretty crazy shit in my day (and still do). I have read many crazy ideas. I have heard those same lyrics that are blamed for other's deaths and heard the same left wing and right wing rhetoric, and in the end we all have, but, we didn't get a gun kill ourselves (as was his intent) and or shoot folks.

Well, shot or not, this woman and the men, did something in the face of death, and probably saved some peoples lives. Medals. :clap:
 
Purple-Days,

wthanna

Well-Known Member
Thomas Jefferson quote: 'Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.'

Freedom... (free speech, the right to bear arms, etc. etc.) brings with it certain risks. There will always be crazy people that will do terrible things. The vast majority of us act responsibly. We cannot allow our rights to be eroded due to the actions of a few crazies. :2c:
 
wthanna,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Purple-Days said:
Now this just came to mind... Ozzy gets blamed for suicides. Ozzy's lyrics incited my son or daughter to xyz... Somebody will be blamed for the crosshairs or an M-16. Or the evils of guns. Etc. etc. whatever the axe of the day that needs grinding (to distract you from more important stuff :cool: ) But, in the end it was just a nut.

Yeah, ya got a point.

I'm not suggesting that anybody should be legally silenced for stating their views but rather just an understanding and awareness of how our words can affect others and that it may be a good idea to tone down the political rhetoric in the hope that it doesn't push someone who may be close to the edge........over it.

Those in the news media, I believe, have a responsibility that goes beyond the desire for ratings and hopefully, this situation will bring about more awareness to that fact.
 
lwien,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
I think there is another point.

That Radio or Television broadcast you and I listen to has an off button.

This isn't 1984. You don't have to listen to all the crap. It is your choice. Like I said earlier, I don't listen to National mainstream news. It's toxic and pretty worthless. And I agree it fuels the fire, both on a political level and a national, social well-being level. :2c:
 
Purple-Days,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Purple-Days said:
I think there is another point.

That Radio or Television broadcast you and I listen to has an off button.

True, we don't have to listen. The concern though, is not those that exercise that free will, but those that watch them religiously and totally buy into some of the bullshit that gets aired.

I'll tune into Glen Beck for some comedic relief, but along with that, I've always had a concern about those that would totally buy into this shit. If you preach enough fear sprinkled in with some hate, there are bound to be some that just may violently act out on what they've heard, and that has always been a concern of mine every time that I have tuned into his program, for there a lot of disenfranchised people out there, and they are a big part of his audience.
 
lwien,

Plotinus

Well-Known Member
I just read something really excellent about this today. I'm reproducing it here. It's a little long but says just about everything I wanted to say on the issue.

Conor Friedersdorf @ The American Scene said:
Jared Lee Loughner's killing spree has rekindled a long-running debate about political discourse in the United States. Voices like Andrew Sullivan insist that violent, inflammatory rhetoric poisons our country, and runs the risk of empowering the deranged. Jack Shafer takes an almost opposite position. "Our spirited political discourse, complete with name-calling, vilificationand, yes, violent imageryis a good thing," he writes. "Better that angry people unload their fury in public than let it fester and turn septic in private." Who is right? I have no idea. Both arguments are plausible. It's even possible for the same rhetoric to act as a release valve for public passions and to inspire someone on the fringe to do something terrible. But whether you side with Sullivan or Shafer or call yourself an agnostic like me I'd argue that tone is overemphasized in these conversations about political discourse, while substance is mostly ignored.

What if we took the opposite approach? I don't think that Sarah Palin bears any responsibility for the shooting in Arizona, or that her rhetoric is the most egregious you'll find on the right. I don't have any problem with her poster putting various Congressional districts in cross-hairs. It's a commonly used visual metaphor, for better or worse, and the substance being communicated is basically that the GOP wants to take back or "target" certain seats. The "tone" is arguably extreme, but what's being said, the ultimate message, is perfectly acceptable: beat these people at the polls.

In contrast, Palin's remarks about death panels communicated an untruth: the notion that Barack Obama's health care reform effort sought to empower a panel of bureaucrats who'd sit in judgment about whether an old person's life would be saved or not. That is the sort of thing we ought to find objectionable, even if the substance is communicated in the most dry language imaginable, because were it true, radicalism would be an appropriate response. "They're going to start killing old people? We've got to stop this!"

I don't think the right's rhetoric is responsible for the shooting in Arizona. Long before this incident, however, I was arguing that the right does have a rhetoric problem. I still think that is true, and the aggrieved attitude of conservative commentators the last couple days is too much for me. Yes, I agree with many of them that Palin and friends aren't responsible for this assassination attempt. Sadly, that is the most you can say in their favor. But it isn't an entirely partisan impulse that causes some people to think otherwise.

Since Barack Obama took office, prominent voices on the right have called him an ally of Islamist radicals in their Grand Jihad against America, a radical Kenyan anti-colonialist, a man who pals around with terrorists and used a financial crisis to deliberately weaken America, an usurper who was born abroad and isn't even eligible to be president, a guy who has somehow made it so that it's okay for black kids to beat up white kids on buses, etc. I haven't even touched on the conspiracy theories of Glenn Beck. The birthers excepted, the people making these chargers are celebrated by movement conservatives they're given book deals, awards, and speaking engagements.

If all of these charges were true, a radicalized citizenry would be an appropriate response. But even the conservatives who defend Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, D'Souza, McCarthy, and so many others don't behave as if they believe all the nonsense they assert. The strongest case against these people isn't that their rhetoric inspires political violence. It's that they frequently utter indefensible nonsense. The problem isn't their tone. It's that the substance of what they're saying is so blinkered that it isn't even taken seriously by their ideological allies (even if they're too cowardly, mercenary or team driven to admit as much).

They're in a tough spot these days partly because it's impossible for them to mount the defense of their rhetoric that is true: "I am a frivolous person, and I don't choose my words based on their meaning. Rather, I behave like the worst caricature of a politician. If you think my rhetoric logically implies that people should behave violently, you're mistaken neither my audience nor my peers in the conservative movement are engaged in a logical enterprise, and it's unfair of you to imply that people take what I say so seriously that I can be blamed for a real world event. Don't you see that this is all a big game? This is how politics works. Stop pretending you're not in on the joke."
 
Plotinus,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
Again, I am not trying to make fun, but Plotinus says, "I just read something really excellent" and quotes a worthy article for thought, but Plotinus, you didn't say anything. You just quoted somebody. If that's all you have to offer, do it at the ballot box with a D or an R. This is a discussion. Say something you believe, share with us what you think about what you posted, please.

Sorry, you (P) are just caught in the crossfire, this isn't meant to pick on you personally, but this may point at a problem we are discussing, taking sides without having our own reasons. :peace:

L, I have lots of thoughts on Beck, but never knew of him till we moved here, just saw a picture of him a week ago. Yes, I live in a self made cave. (very little TV)
 
Purple-Days,

Plotinus

Well-Known Member
Hm. I don't think I agree with the dichotomy you're presenting. I'll often read an argument that I agree with 100%, and that expresses what I would like to say better than I can. That's the case here. Friedersdorf elegantly states the case as I would have, but better.

Does that count as not saying anything? Had I not posted, his perspective - and, by extension, mine - would not have been part of the debate.

I am sympathetic to the complaint that too many people choose a team and then decide issues after the fact, but I'm not one of those people. I voted for Democrats, Libertarians, and Republicans in the 08 election, and broadly align myself with the so-called "Liberaltarian" coalition (though Friedersdorf identifies as a conservative.) - which pretty much has no voice in the current national government. I am not as frustrated about party politics as you are, but I pay too much attention to be content to list "D or R", as you put it.

I like to flatter myself that this comes through in my writing here, but maybe not. So, to clarify: I agree 100% with Friedersdorf, and feel that restating his case in my own words would only weaken it. BUT, I also agree that one shouldn't view political arguments as merely sporting events, where you choose a side and then root unconditionally.
 
Plotinus,

Purple-Days

Well-Known Member
You certainly see...
Now, you have said something.

It wasn't AT you, just the kind of 'cut and paste' world we live in. :peace:

P:2 is a valid point.

And again points at the kind of situation we are in. I don't wan't to argue or hate, just talk.
 
Purple-Days,

reece

Well-Known Member
It is about recognizing your power and exercising it responsibly. It isn't about quieting free speech. It isn't about stopping disagreement or arguments or passionate defense of one's ideology. Free speech is a very broadly defined right, and it is the most reprehensible speech that needs protection. But there are limits and one can be held responsible. For example, one cannot lie if they know that lie will cause a specific response that will probably result in injury (yelling fire in a crowded theater when you know there is no fire).

I doubt a direct link can be drawn between this guy and any specific rhetoric (except some of the grammar stuff according to someone at the Southern Poverty Law Center). It is true that most of us don't react in this way. Usually, something else is wrong with those who do. But is it not the epitome of personal responsibility to temper the language being used when it's only purposes is to demonize people you disagree with on public policy, and enrage those who agree with you? Especially when much of what you say are outright lies. Especially when those lies reach millions of people daily.

It is kinda hard to have civil discourse when there are more than one set of "facts" on which opinions are based. I may be wrong, but I don't think it is good for our country. If the government were really setting up "FEMA concentration camps" and "death panels," violent revolt might be necessary. But these are lies that people believe.

And people have acted based on these lies. The Dr. Tiller shooting, the guy at the holocaust museum, the guy in San Francisco shooting at the police...

It is not anti free speech to ask folks to take responsibility for the words they speak.
 
reece,

Stu

Maconheiro
Staff member
Is anyone concerned that they're making this guy out to be a pothead? I don't think we need that kind of bad press if you know what I mean. I'm curious as to how they'll treat that in the media. :rolleyes:
 
Stu,

lwien

Well-Known Member
i don't know if any of you saw Jon Stewart last night but if you didn't, here is his opening remarks. I'll tell ya this. News commentators need to see this, if for no other reason than to be schooled in how to commentate on a story such as this. Yeah, he did throw in a bit of comedic stuff, but that's what he does. But beyond that, he made just sooooo much sense.

I guess this is why in a recent Times magazine poll, even though he is a comedian, he was named as the most trusted news journalist on TV.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction
 
lwien,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
Awesome video. What i find sad is I know a bunch of people, who are way far on the right side of the political spectrum, who won't even watch that video just because it is John Stewart and his views do not match theirs.
 
DevoTheStrange,

aesthyrian

Blaaaaah
reece said:
It is about recognizing your power and exercising it responsibly. It isn't about quieting free speech. It isn't about stopping disagreement or arguments or passionate defense of one's ideology. Free speech is a very broadly defined right, and it is the most reprehensible speech that needs protection. But there are limits and one can be held responsible. For example, one cannot lie if they know that lie will cause a specific response that will probably result in injury (yelling fire in a crowded theater when you know there is no fire).

I doubt a direct link can be drawn between this guy and any specific rhetoric (except some of the grammar stuff according to someone at the Southern Poverty Law Center). It is true that most of us don't react in this way. Usually, something else is wrong with those who do. But is it not the epitome of personal responsibility to temper the language being used when it's only purposes is to demonize people you disagree with on public policy, and enrage those who agree with you? Especially when much of what you say are outright lies. Especially when those lies reach millions of people daily.

It is kinda hard to have civil discourse when there are more than one set of "facts" on which opinions are based. I may be wrong, but I don't think it is good for our country. If the government were really setting up "FEMA concentration camps" and "death panels," violent revolt might be necessary. But these are lies that people believe.

And people have acted based on these lies. The Dr. Tiller shooting, the guy at the holocaust museum, the guy in San Francisco shooting at the police...

It is not anti free speech to ask folks to take responsibility for the words they speak.


Very well said reece. If you guys aren't aware of the attempted shooting of the Tides Foundation, then please go and check it out. Beck needs to own up to that one but of course never will. That incident was the clearest warning we could have gotten, and we all ignored it. Now people are dead. :(
 
aesthyrian,

TanzRemix

Member
DevoTheStrange said:
Awesome video. What i find sad is I know a bunch of people, who are way far on the right side of the political spectrum, who won't even watch that video just because it is John Stewart and his views do not match theirs.

What are you trying to say with this comment? Are you deriding people on the right? Are you saying only people on the left can be correct? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from, and why you want to snipe at certain groups without real commentary or analysis.
 
TanzRemix,

lwien

Well-Known Member
TanzRemix said:
DevoTheStrange said:
Awesome video. What i find sad is I know a bunch of people, who are way far on the right side of the political spectrum, who won't even watch that video just because it is John Stewart and his views do not match theirs.

What are you trying to say with this comment? Are you deriding people on the right? Are you saying only people on the left can be correct? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from, and why you want to snipe at certain groups without real commentary or analysis.

What's also true though is that there are also people on the left that would never watch Beck, Hannity or O'Rielly. I find it really odd that one would only want to watch news programs that coincide with their own viewpoints without ever wanting to watch something with an opposing slant, thereby challenging themselves on their current viewpoints or possibly reinforce their current viewpoints. To only expose yourself to one way of looking at things is REALLY self limiting.
 
lwien,

DevoTheStrange

Ia! Ia! Vapor Fthagn!
What i am trying to say with that comment. Is this. I have a bunch of friends who are on the right who will not listen to anyone on the left. I know for a fact they hate john stewart and have had me turn off his show when I have had it playing during their visits.
So If i wanted to share that specific video to them. They would not watch it specifically because they feel his views are BS and therefore they won't have it.
Don't read into it.
There are stupid people on the left... on the right, and in the middle. I made my comment about specific people, why? because I know these people, I wasn't talking about the Right in general, but rather this Bunch of people. My comment was in reference to how some people are not open to discussion if they feel the views are radically different than theirs.... left or right.

I feel that John Stewart has a good opinion that it should be heard, just happened to mention that I know specifically some people who would never watch it. I wasnt making no snipe at any specific group. But rather commenting on how I specifically know someone, amongst a group of like minded friends, who would not watch this video because he has different political views than John Stewart so he wont give it the time of day. And to me, that mindset is stupid. I've seen that kind of mindset throughout the entire political spectrum.
 
DevoTheStrange,
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