Arizer portable heater tech discussion

[OF]

i am suggesting that if this is the case, the temperature should continue to drop, not reach a stable point as it does (because, theoretically, the ends of the leads are outside the heated space). if such tiny leads could sink that much head, why are CPU coolers such big blocks of aluminum, for instance?

I think it would drop further if heat was not being conducted in at the same time. Like say if you pulled it out so conduction stopped?

I think this is demonstrated by Stu where we get two different 'signatures' in keeping with the lead diameter. Do you have a different explanation for why that happens? I think different heat flows lead to different drops and therefore different readings. The cup is still at one (higher) temperature. The drop is an instrumentation anomaly. It can be modeled.

Such tiny leads sink a small amount of heat for sure, but the replacement heat flow through the herb 'in still air' is very slow to get there so the local temperature drops. Notice in Stu's test that fatter leads showed a bigger effect, both in absolute temperature being lower (thin leads read higher since they sink less heat) and the step size. I think if we could use even thinner leads they would be yet closer to 'flat line'?

Between hits why else do the two different gauges of leads show different temperatures?

Heatsinks that have to move lots of power (Watts or calories, take your pick) need fat paths with low resistance (the reason for big size) and rapid transit to the air (which is why fans are added) to do that job. Remember the 'degrees C per Watt' deal I talked about above? That is why. We also add 'goose grease' to improve the heat flow between device and heatsink for the same reasons.

Tough stuff, counter intuitive from some perspectives for sure.

Regards to all.

OF

Edit: Here's another anology if you've the patients for it? Ever notice how the kitchen light dim when the washer starts? Or a vacuum or other high current load. The voltage drop is from the increased current flow, the voltage 'at the poles' doesn't sag. Or you can see your car light dim when the battery has to provide more current to crank the engine? Same deal as we're looking at here basically.

OF

 

[stickstones]

motherfucker...are all our charts gone thanks to imgur?

 

[stickstones]

Let's see if this image comes through. This was a test I did with two wires...one in the herbs and one crammed in-between the bowl and glass. Green line is between the bowl and glass, red line is in the herbs. This was an Air 2 set at 390F. The draws start when the red curves turn upward, and end when the red curves turn downward.

 

[His_Highness]

@stickstones - I can't see the pic unless I use the "quote" feature on your post......then I can see it when I'm crafting the reply .... Once I hit post I can see it in my post in the quote. EDIT: Now I can see it in your original post and in mine via the quote. EDIT #2: Tried another computer without signing in and can't see the pic in your post or mine with the quote.

Let's see if this image comes through. This was a test I did with two wires...one in the herbs and one crammed in-between the bowl and glass. Green line is between the bowl and glass, red line is in the herbs. This was an Air 2 set at 390F. The draws start when the red curves turn upward, and end when the red curves turn downward.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

@stickstones - looks like convection to me! although it is way below the setting. is there anywhere you can place a probe to actually get the 390F reading - like right on the heater surface?

re: chart showing up - i have to do a "Reply" to see the chart, then i can kill the reply and still see the chart if i hit refresh.

Do you have a different explanation for why that happens?

convection - heat carried in via inhale, after inhale, heat carried out via chimney effect - so it reaches a lower temp based on proximity to heater.

 

[stickstones]

@Hippie Dickie - All of my Arizer readings are low...every time. It's weird, because Stu can get a temp reading closer to what we expect. I've done them in the Air 2, ArGo, Solo 2 and they are consistently low. I get predictable curves, and predictably low readings. I get readings I expect from the Herbalizer, Fury 2, Mighty, and a slew of conduction vapes like the Flowermate and IQ.

 

[Stu]

Well, this inspired me to do another test using the original (thicker) t/c and my newfangled thin kapton t/c simultaneously.

Here's the chart of an empty load at temp 7 with one draw.

I was surprised by the temp delta between the probes. The t/c closer to the glass wall (albeit by a fairly small margin) read a much higher temp throughout the test. They both showed a temp increase during the draw (as is tradition), but the difference between them was striking. I would guess that this wouldn't be the case if the stem had been full and maybe I'll test a full load later (since I already have it setup) to see the difference.

In any case, thanks @OF for the suggestion. Intriguing stuff!

Ok, so I ran this test again while inverting the positions of the 2 thermocouples. The results were virtually identical, so it's definitely a difference between the t/c's. I didn't even bother to save the graph.

Then I put the two t/c's in the same spot in the middle of the chamber and filled it with ABV to run another test. I ran this test on level 4 since I didn't fancy inhaling level 7 ABV as I'm wasn't planning on going to bed immediately afterward. I've found that shit knocks me out.

There is definitely less of a temp delta between the probes with herb in the bowl, but the delta persists. This leads me to believe that the thicker t/c isn't very useful for our purposes. The thinner probe is much more responsive so I will only be using the two thin ones going forward.

I'll try to run Hippie's tests later on using two of the 0.13mm polyimide t/c's and will report back.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

thanks, @Stu, totally confirms my bias about convection going on.

 

[Andreaerdna]

Let's see if this image comes through. This was a test I did with two wires...one in the herbs and one crammed in-between the bowl and glass. Green line is between the bowl and glass, red line is in the herbs. This was an Air 2 set at 390F. The draws start when the red curves turn upward, and end when the red curves turn downward.

This is very nice, and once again to me this graph says there is heat transfert by convection from one hand: the cup get cooled while flowers (not in contact) get heated by air passing by the system, and heat by IR radiation is proved too as temp rises (at lower rate) while air is not passing by and there is no point of contact

Btw it seems that at the distance between the load and the cup (this part of the vape is directly heated by conduction by the ceramic heater, not the load) the difference of temperature between the radiative source (cup)and the heat sink (flowers) is around 90° (right before first hit the courbes were with same angle, meaning they would have probably kept or reduced that difference of t° without convective stream)

 

[Stu]

So I ran some more tests using both the thin 0.13mm t/c's. One taped to the inner glass wall, and the other suspended in the middle of the chamber. Here's the setup:

First test was an empty bowl at level seven with one draw.

Next test was with live ammo at level 4 with 2 draws.

I have to say that it's pretty much as I'd expected. And it got me high, so win win.

 

[OF]

Good experiment. Thanks.

I'm not sure how others interpret this but I see clear evidence of the sort of instrumentation issues I've been suggesting. Not only in the difference is 'step size' but also in the offset of the curves. Why else is the one in the center reading lower than at the walls?

That difference, say 20C is FOUR steps on Solo I?

If it was convection, not conduction, I'd expect the two temperatures to be the same during the hits, wouldn't you?

I see 'evidence' of heat flow up the leads causing a 'temperature drop' across the load. Does anyone else have a different theory to explain it?

Once again, I think a reading of the actual temperature of air coming out of the vents could prove the convection case if it's anything close to 400F (with no conduction contribution). I expect something less than half that, totally useless in making vapor on it's own.

OF

 

[Hippie Dickie]

okay, one thing about the two charts: the SETPOINT temp was different so the slope of the second one is less steep.

Why else is the one in the center reading lower than at the walls?

because no conduction ... the wall probe is in contact with the heater, the middle probe is in contact with the herb, and the herb is only in contact with hot air. the surface area of the herb in contact with a hot surface is vanishingly small - more or less.

because heat of vaporization … it takes watts to release the vapor. notice on the first chart, the graphs touch. so the hot air coming in is the same as the heater temp as measured by the wall probe.

because herb be dank, mon … @Stu took more than one hit, so dank still be taking the heat at the end of the first draw.

for these reasons, the middle probe measures lower temp than wall probe.

@Stu - a chart with a third probe positioned at the hottest part of the heater would be interesting. - or if you can document that the wall probe tracks the hottest part of heater or show offset and rate.

 

[OF]

I think it might be useful to repeat the experiment with the probes mechanically swapped (move the wall sensor to the middle.....) somewhere along the line. It would eliminate possible problems with sensing properly? I sincerely doubt it, but it's easy to eliminate as a possibility.

OF

 

[stickstones]

I think it might be useful to repeat the experiment with the probes mechanically swapped

Pull out your gear and make it happen!

 

[OF]

Pull out your gear and make it happen!

Not likely, for sure not at that level. All my T/C readers are manual so won't yield such pretty graphs. Just a suggestion, your call.

IMO youse guys are making great progress. I predict more fun ahead. FWIW, I still think a reading of port air temperature alone could be some compelling 'evidence'. I predict that it to me modestly heated at best, nothing close to 400F.

Best wishes with your experiment, I think your on a useful path.

OF

 

[OF]

Gentle Friends,

Some additional tests for your consideration I think support my theory, from our new Member @Zoppo:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/arizer-argo.25853/page-40#post-1319372

He did his tests on ArGo (basically Solo/Air with smaller diameter taller load with the same volume) but unlike the tests posted here does not show the 'evidence' of temperature drop before the hit (which in his case never happens). No convection present, only conduction. Indicated load temperature agreeing well with the setting at idle.

Why?

Why does he show something different than basically the same test on Solo with it's shorter, wider load?

I suggest this is because the taller load means more length of thermocouple leads are exposed to the heat of the load. And the heat from the walls has to travel a shorter distance to those leads. Both mean there is better coupling, more heat conducted to the sensor and it's leads (remember, the actual signal comes from the part of the leads that are cooling, not the weld at the tip).

A much larger surface of the leads being heated and less herb between them and the walls where the heat is coming from, both of which lessens local cooling at the tip. Or so I figure......

Another factor, perhaps, is he has more exposed bare wire? Removing the jacket from the leads means better conduction again.

So I'll suggest another experiment to test this idea. Remove some jacket from the end of the T/C sensor and insert more of it in the load. Even coiling up a bit inside the bowl? If I'm all wet you'll get the same results as before? I bet I stay dry.

Like the repeated experiments above with thinner leads and placement closer to the walls seems to do?

This is the basis of the "Scientific Method" after all. Form a theory, propose and conduct an objective experiment to confirm it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Otherwise, anyone else have an explanation for his different results?

Thanks for listening once again. Regards to all.

OF

 

[Stu]

Otherwise, anyone else have an explanation for his different results?

The first thing we need to know is where the probe tip was placed. @Zoppo was the probe touching the base of the cup or was it suspended centrally in the chamber? Also, was the chamber loaded or empty?

 

[OF]

The first thing we need to know is where the probe tip was placed. @Zoppo was the probe touching the base of the cup or was it suspended centrally in the chamber? Also, was the chamber loaded or empty?

Good questions. I had assumed (not a good idea......) that since the cup is the hottest point in the load area (and everything else has to be cooler, even if only slightly) he was using a load of some sort (herb, ABV?). In his prior post he talked about testing with a reduced load.

If indeed there's no load, the mystery of why he measures higher 'idle' temperatures than reported here gets deeper?

Hopefully @Zoppo can enlighten us.

OF

 

[aoaiwof]

Looking forward to more data on this. So, how to we define the perfect setup for these tests then? There are different types of thermocouples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple) which might affect the readings. I guess we'd want a really thin (sub 1mm) probe that is well insulated and just exposed at the tip on the very center of the bowl. I found this https://www.tcdirect.co.uk/Default.aspx?level=2&department_id=200/2

What probes have people used so far?

Also, I think draw speed will be an important factor too, and I'd love to take some reading and plot the temp curves for multiple draw speeds! How fast have people been pulling the vape when they've been measuring?

 

[aoaiwof]

@Stu can you list the thermocouples you're using and the gear for making these sweet graphs?

 

[Stu]

@Stu can you list the thermocouples you're using and the gear for making these sweet graphs?

Sure. These are the thermocouples that I'm using. This is the logging thermometer. The thermometer comes with software for the graphs.

I'd encourage anyone who cares about this stuff to invest in one of these.

 

[stickstones]

Did he use a stem or just drop the probe in there?

Were any hits administered?

How long was the heat soak?

We've known forever that these portables can thoroughly cook your load if left to sit idly long enough. But when used as intended, that long of a heat soak never happens and the idle temp never gets that high.

 

[Stu]

motherfucker...are all our charts gone thanks to imgur?

FYI all pics have been restored in this thread. I have moved them all to a different image host to make the thread more understandable to read through.

 

[ChooChooCharlie]

FYI all pics have been restored in this thread. I have moved them all to a different image host to make the thread more understandable to read through.

Damn, @Stu , that must have been a tedious chore! Great job!

 

[ohmygodimsohigh]

FYI all pics have been restored in this thread. I have moved them all to a different image host to make the thread more understandable to read through.

You da real MVP