stickstones
Vapor concierge
Here’s a sandbox to discuss the heater tech in Arizer portables so we can keep it in one place instead of scattered across Arizer threads.
Arizer portable heater tech discussion
- Thread starter stickstones
- Start date
Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
I repost my post in air2 thread to get started:
Thank you @stickstones for the chart showing temperature of air2 while in use
Temperature raise before hitting so radiation/conduction is a thing
When stickstones starts to hit we can appreciate how the temperature climb faster than before, and also how temperture drops after hit finished, so convection too is proved in a noticeable ratio
By this experience (or @Stu one with a solo) is proved arizer use an hybrid way (convection/conduction-radiation) to deliver heat to the load
Thank you @stickstones for the chart showing temperature of air2 while in use
Temperature raise before hitting so radiation/conduction is a thing
When stickstones starts to hit we can appreciate how the temperature climb faster than before, and also how temperture drops after hit finished, so convection too is proved in a noticeable ratio
By this experience (or @Stu one with a solo) is proved arizer use an hybrid way (convection/conduction-radiation) to deliver heat to the load
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Cheesequake
Free Men Don't Ask
Or maybe the bowl only heats up all the way to vaping temp when it detects a sharp drop in temperature from someone taking a draw. That makes more sense to me than a magic conduction heater that somehow stays cool enough to not burn weed less than an inch away from it yet hot enough to heat the air up in the same bowl to create convection vapor.
Since @Andreaerdna mentioned my chart, here it is:
I first noticed the convective properties of the Solo when I ran my first temp experiment almost 3 years ago.
Why this is still a controversial issue today is beyond me tbh.
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ohmygodimsohigh
Well-Known Member
I think the controversy stems from specific definitions.
All semantics aside, it seems pretty obvious that the arizer oven ALSO heats the air.
That heated air may not be enough to vaporize herb on its own, but it's certainly enough to have an impact on the experience.
To me, that's a hybrid.
Heat is coming from the plate, from the glass, and from the air.
All semantics aside, it seems pretty obvious that the arizer oven ALSO heats the air.
That heated air may not be enough to vaporize herb on its own, but it's certainly enough to have an impact on the experience.
To me, that's a hybrid.
Heat is coming from the plate, from the glass, and from the air.
Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
A part from general WRONG believings there are not many fellows FCers contesting this simple and now evident fact
And IIRC the main argument to sustain controversial is only an example of "it is like this because I say so" proved wrong by thermodynamics law, that being something like: you need "huge (?)" surface temperature to deliver heat through convection (or radiation)
I stand corrected, this argument is proved wrong by experience too (see @stickstones report of temp calibration of minivap heater) or @KeroZen experience of radiation with an ascent (was it you KZ?)
Also we should discuss misuse of conduction term in place of radiation, as conduction is responsible of very little heat transfert respect to radiation in every so called 100% conduction vape as pax line
Conduction is a thing only with concentrates IMO (where you have a high surface area of contact)
And IIRC the main argument to sustain controversial is only an example of "it is like this because I say so" proved wrong by thermodynamics law, that being something like: you need "huge (?)" surface temperature to deliver heat through convection (or radiation)
I stand corrected, this argument is proved wrong by experience too (see @stickstones report of temp calibration of minivap heater) or @KeroZen experience of radiation with an ascent (was it you KZ?)
Also we should discuss misuse of conduction term in place of radiation, as conduction is responsible of very little heat transfert respect to radiation in every so called 100% conduction vape as pax line
Conduction is a thing only with concentrates IMO (where you have a high surface area of contact)
well it's never good to measure something with the intention to prove a theory - i said it in the other tread, do the same measurement a 2. time with the probe touching the bottom...
A probe only shows temp at one point, but the temp gradient inside the load mass is what counts in the end.
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KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
@Andreaerdna : my memories are hazy now, but I recall that I argued with @OF at some point around the "radiant heat" topic, and I also recall that I made a public post to say how daunting it was to try to confront the wise man with the biggest p... post count around! 
I've since learned more about the topic by reading a lot about thermal design in the electronics products design context, and I'm confident radiant heat is important here (ex: why you need your heatsink shiny to radiate a lot and why you need to paint the inside of your product case black to absorb as much radiant heat and not bounce it back like a shiny surface would do)
But I also understand @OF's stance more, in the sense that if you read carefully what he says, he always adds "in any significant amount" and that's the key to the apparent misunderstanding. There will always be 3 methods of heat transfer at play in any system (unless it's in vacuum in which case convection and conduction would be absent) and I don't think he ever contradicted that point. But most of the time, two of the methods are not contributing enough to reach "useful vaporization temperature" on their own.
And it's true that in thermodynamics, you need a temperature gradient for any exchange to happen and it can go only in a single direction: from the hottest point to the lowest. That's not up to debate, it's a Law with a big L.
Now it can be tricky to determine the relative temperatures of the various parts of interest in the system. For instance, what's the thermal conductivity coefficient of ground plant material? From reading engineering cheat charts we can see that balsa and cork are better insulators that other woods, because they have airy pockets inside. But woods are good insulators already, close to 10 times more than glass.
Airy loosely packed plant material should conduct less than densely packed, and it's something we all confirmed with conduction vapes: I must be the most vocal advocate of the "puck technique" on this forum. Tamp the shit down out of your load with these vapes if you want better results! Get rid of those air pockets and heat will conduct better, down to the middle of the bowl. Note that I also recommend to tamp with convection vapes but for another reason: it's to prevent the hot air stream to circumvent the material by taking the path of least resistance and to give it enough time to transfer its energy to the load.
Here's the chart I refer to usually >> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
Let's pick the values that are of prime interest for us: vacuum is 0, no conduction happens as well as no convection when there are no gaz molecules, makes sense, so far so good. In the vacuum of space you only get radiant heat.
Glass is around 1 W/(m °K) that's about the middle point between conductors and insulators. I'll omit the unit from now on for the sake of readability.
Now let's have a look at the other values we frequently encounter in our vapes:
- Air is a very good insulator, and it's a key point, as it explains why "full convection" vapes are power inefficient: we have to conduct and radiate heat from our hot resistive element (usually a metal coil or mesh, or a filament inside a bulb etc) to the room temperature gaz molecules, which in turn will transfer that energy to our load via convection somewhere down stream. Coef. value for air is 0.024, close to 5 times less conductive than average woods.
- Metals are very good conductors, we encounter in our vapes Stainless Steel with a coef. of 16, Chrome Nickel Steel (18% Cr, 8 % Ni) 16.3, Titanium 22, Aluminium 205. Note that to complicate matters Aluminium is always covered with a layer of Aluminium-oxide having a coef. of 30, and Stainless Steel with a layer of Chrome-oxide 0.42. So a Stainless Steel stem for instance would rob 16 times more heat out of the system compared to a glass stem, which in turn would rob close to 10 times more heat than a wooden stem.
- For woods we find several values in our chart: Balsa wood 0.048, Cellulose, wood pulp and regenerated 0.23, Cork board 0.043, Cork 0.07, Cotton 0.04, Cotton wool 0.029, Hardwoods (oak, maple..) 0.16, Paper 0.05, Plywood 0.13, Softwoods (fir, pine ..) 0.12, Timber (maple) 0.16, Timber (walnut) 0.15, Wood across the grain (balsa) 0.055... Note that they all qualify as insulators.
- For ceramics the chart refers us to that other page >> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ceramics-properties-d_1227.html but the coef. values are in a different unit. After conversion we find Porcelain 1.5 to 2, up to 6.28 for Zirconia Porcelain, and up to 21 for Alumina Porcelain. We also note Mica 0.71 and Pyrex glass 1.005 (hence why Ryan switched from glass to mica in the Milaana and Zion for the heater support insulator, as it's robs less heat away) But it raises the question: why are our conduction vape bowls made of glazed ceramic and not just glass?
- Also of possible interest: Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) AKA Teflon 0.25, Silicone cast resin 0.15 - 0.32, commonly found in our vapes.
- Finally for our plant material it's hard to say, we have: Potato (raw flesh) 0.55, Apple (85.6% moisture) 0.39. What we use is considerably drier and also full of cellulose. Maybe we can assume somewhere between 0.5 and 0.2? Anyway I think we can assume our material is rather an insulator than a conductor, right?
Ok, I hope I didn't lose everybody already? Let's make a break for the sake of readability (and I also need to get a lunch so I'll be back in a short while)
I've since learned more about the topic by reading a lot about thermal design in the electronics products design context, and I'm confident radiant heat is important here (ex: why you need your heatsink shiny to radiate a lot and why you need to paint the inside of your product case black to absorb as much radiant heat and not bounce it back like a shiny surface would do)
But I also understand @OF's stance more, in the sense that if you read carefully what he says, he always adds "in any significant amount" and that's the key to the apparent misunderstanding. There will always be 3 methods of heat transfer at play in any system (unless it's in vacuum in which case convection and conduction would be absent) and I don't think he ever contradicted that point. But most of the time, two of the methods are not contributing enough to reach "useful vaporization temperature" on their own.
And it's true that in thermodynamics, you need a temperature gradient for any exchange to happen and it can go only in a single direction: from the hottest point to the lowest. That's not up to debate, it's a Law with a big L.
Now it can be tricky to determine the relative temperatures of the various parts of interest in the system. For instance, what's the thermal conductivity coefficient of ground plant material? From reading engineering cheat charts we can see that balsa and cork are better insulators that other woods, because they have airy pockets inside. But woods are good insulators already, close to 10 times more than glass.
Airy loosely packed plant material should conduct less than densely packed, and it's something we all confirmed with conduction vapes: I must be the most vocal advocate of the "puck technique" on this forum. Tamp the shit down out of your load with these vapes if you want better results! Get rid of those air pockets and heat will conduct better, down to the middle of the bowl. Note that I also recommend to tamp with convection vapes but for another reason: it's to prevent the hot air stream to circumvent the material by taking the path of least resistance and to give it enough time to transfer its energy to the load.
Here's the chart I refer to usually >> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
Let's pick the values that are of prime interest for us: vacuum is 0, no conduction happens as well as no convection when there are no gaz molecules, makes sense, so far so good. In the vacuum of space you only get radiant heat.
Glass is around 1 W/(m °K) that's about the middle point between conductors and insulators. I'll omit the unit from now on for the sake of readability.
Now let's have a look at the other values we frequently encounter in our vapes:
- Air is a very good insulator, and it's a key point, as it explains why "full convection" vapes are power inefficient: we have to conduct and radiate heat from our hot resistive element (usually a metal coil or mesh, or a filament inside a bulb etc) to the room temperature gaz molecules, which in turn will transfer that energy to our load via convection somewhere down stream. Coef. value for air is 0.024, close to 5 times less conductive than average woods.
- Metals are very good conductors, we encounter in our vapes Stainless Steel with a coef. of 16, Chrome Nickel Steel (18% Cr, 8 % Ni) 16.3, Titanium 22, Aluminium 205. Note that to complicate matters Aluminium is always covered with a layer of Aluminium-oxide having a coef. of 30, and Stainless Steel with a layer of Chrome-oxide 0.42. So a Stainless Steel stem for instance would rob 16 times more heat out of the system compared to a glass stem, which in turn would rob close to 10 times more heat than a wooden stem.
- For woods we find several values in our chart: Balsa wood 0.048, Cellulose, wood pulp and regenerated 0.23, Cork board 0.043, Cork 0.07, Cotton 0.04, Cotton wool 0.029, Hardwoods (oak, maple..) 0.16, Paper 0.05, Plywood 0.13, Softwoods (fir, pine ..) 0.12, Timber (maple) 0.16, Timber (walnut) 0.15, Wood across the grain (balsa) 0.055... Note that they all qualify as insulators.
- For ceramics the chart refers us to that other page >> https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ceramics-properties-d_1227.html but the coef. values are in a different unit. After conversion we find Porcelain 1.5 to 2, up to 6.28 for Zirconia Porcelain, and up to 21 for Alumina Porcelain. We also note Mica 0.71 and Pyrex glass 1.005 (hence why Ryan switched from glass to mica in the Milaana and Zion for the heater support insulator, as it's robs less heat away) But it raises the question: why are our conduction vape bowls made of glazed ceramic and not just glass?
- Also of possible interest: Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) AKA Teflon 0.25, Silicone cast resin 0.15 - 0.32, commonly found in our vapes.
- Finally for our plant material it's hard to say, we have: Potato (raw flesh) 0.55, Apple (85.6% moisture) 0.39. What we use is considerably drier and also full of cellulose. Maybe we can assume somewhere between 0.5 and 0.2? Anyway I think we can assume our material is rather an insulator than a conductor, right?
Ok, I hope I didn't lose everybody already?
Let's make a break for the sake of readability (and I also need to get a lunch so I'll be back in a short while)
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If u look at hemp for house insulation some producers claim up to 0,05, it's just the fiber but that should be the absolute minimum (otherwise i'll insulate my house with buds
) - but as u mentioned above that value will be influenced by the packingAndreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
OF
Well-Known Member
Yes, in Thermodynamics where there is 'cycling' of energy transfer like we have here, such things are called "recovery" typically. It happens at a fixed rate, subject to the conditions, which is why the curve has that shape.
It is, however, almost entirely conduction. There's not enough heat difference to make Radiation significant. Yes, IR happens all the time above absolute zero, but what we have here is the load giving up IR heat to the vape at the same rated the vape is giving heat to the load.....equilibrium.
I see no evidence of convection, however. The drop from the sensor at the edge shows the cup drops in temperature with the hit. This is caused by heat flow (the change is a reliable result of flow) showing that conduction goes up as the hit starts?
There is no sense on the load, and 'the loop' for temperature control much too coarse. Notice in Solo the heater doesn't even always come on with a hit? The 'thermal mass' of the oven stores heat and the control only sets a 'band' of acceptable temperatures. You call for 390F and Solo figures anything between say 385 and 400 is 'close enough'?
Yes, I think you're absolutely right about the cup not being anywhere near hot enough to heat the incoming air fast enough to do the job without combustion between hits. No magic here, just science in action.
Careful here, as I said on the similar topic with Sticks, I think you're looking at an anomaly introduced by heat conduction up the leads of the T/C. I think if you try leads of different cross sections (getting different heat losses) you'll get different results. I did. Why is it you think the temperature reading is dropping so fast after the hit?
I agree, it's a matter of degrees (yes, I know, bad pun.....). The air is no doubt heated a bit passing though the hot oven, but not enough to make any vapor even under ideal conditions.
It might be a helpful experiment to try to measure the average air temperature as it enters? I suspect it's less than 100F? And ironically all that heat was drawn out of the parts of the oven that were heated by conduction?
This vape can make vapor on conduction alone, in fact I suspect it would work just fine in a vacuum? That too might be an interesting experiment.......
Several excellent points. First off, thanks very much for pointing out the 'significant factor' part. That is critical. Just because it runs on conduction doesn't mean there isn't convection or radiation possible, just not significantly so when it comes to making vapor. To make vapor we need a steady supply to replace the (heat) energy used making the vapor. Dem's da rules.
Yes, heat management in electronics is a good guide, since it follows the same rules. I got most of my practical understanding (as opposed to 'book learnin') that way in fact, fighting heat buildup in electronics packages. You're a bit off with color on heatsinks, however, black is the ideal color if you want to enhance radiation losses ("Black Body" and all that), which is why you find makers often absorbing the extra cost of the finish.
The discussion of heat conductivity through various materials is great! Also in the discussion should be 'specific heat', how much real heat energy is needed to raise a standard weight of that material one degree. This too varies a lot and determines the timing of changes as well.
Thanks to all or contributing, especially Stones for providing a place we can refer folks to?
Now, let me throw some more gasoline on the fire? There really is no such thing as conduction different from convection in a broad sense. Convection is just conduction with a 'working fluid' (usually air but could be other things like liquid metals in a reactor or water in your car). Heat is transferred to the intermediary fluid by conduction which then moved into contact with a colder surface where, again by conduction, the heat is transferred on. A Professor I had nearly half a century ago quipped 'there really is not such thing as convection in Thermodynamics in the end, we just invented it so we could talk to Engineers'. A lot of buckshot in that load I think. It is semantics in the end, a way to communicate ideas? For our purposes, of course, there are still 3 modes.
Now for the really fun part, sure to get a rise out of folks: I think there is definitely convection going on in Solo/Air during the hit. But it's not making vapor. It's not even heating. It's convection COOLING going on. Think about it if the air comes in 'cold' and needs to be heated up how does that actually happen. If it really is much below 400F coming in (which I'm confident of but needs 'proof') all it can do is cool a load that's hotter? Heat only goes one way........
Fun stuff, and much like Shakespeare's rose? Why does it matter what the name is? I think another poster nailed it on the ArGo thread, 'we've collectively decided convection is the superior way to make vapor', and everyone wants their chosen vape to be the best?
Great question, I guess there's no need to give my opinion......
Best Christmas wishes to all. Thanks for your kind attention.
OF
Funny you should mention that because that is exactly what I was doing in my first test in 2015. I mentioned that in the Solo thread a couple of years ago. However I was not trying to prove convection occurred in the Solo; quite the opposite in fact.
i just had in mind the Flowermate temp chart where the probe only showed the dialed temp when it touched the bottom/wanding...
The FM should show kind of a similar temp chart when the probe is in the middle 'insulated' by herb?
For measuring solo/air it would be ideally 2 temp probes at the same draw, one at the bottom and one at the top (but that's to tight i guess), to give more indication about the heat flow
The FM should show kind of a similar temp chart when the probe is in the middle 'insulated' by herb?
For measuring solo/air it would be ideally 2 temp probes at the same draw, one at the bottom and one at the top (but that's to tight i guess), to give more indication about the heat flow
Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
Do you believe temp charts are corrupted by some sistemic error? Seems like you are completely ignoring them
I have an alternative take on the heat flow:
Cold air enter into the heater compartement
Cold Air get heated by heater (heater get cooled down indeed, not the load)
heated air enter the bowl and transfers heat to the load . (Definition of heat transfer by convection)
IMO in order to not overload the heater with cold air, arizer designed vapes with draw restriction, same reason why you need to let the heater rest 30 secs between each hit (it needs to go back to temp), it is a slow heater not a beast like tuboseems to be
On the other side, first Glass vapcap had almost 0 convection, you sucked the vapor that was produced by heating the cap, end. With this kind of vapes air restriction has an impact only on vapor thickness/harshness (like vapman with golden tubes clogged). the temperature of the load isn’t affected at all by your draw in a device where convection is non relevant, this because air do not pass through the heater by definition
Mflb
is really different as the heater is after the load, so air pass through the load before hitting the heater, here the vapor is produced by a mix of radiation and conduction (IMO radiation is way dominant there but this is another Pandora’s box) and then it get heated while it pass through the metal web 
Describing the MFLB I share your affirmations 100% Of, convective air cool down the load, with arizer just the opposite (proved by temperature probing)
Merry christmas to you too
stickstones
Vapor concierge
@OF - it seems you are missing the point of the glass stems changing the dynamics and you’re ignoring the probe in the bowl of herbs when it rises during a hit. You keep saying it’s bringing cooler air in, but it’s not. It’s bringing hotter air in because the glass barrier keeps the herbs cooler than the surrounding system.
Cheesequake
Free Men Don't Ask
If it isn't hot enough to vaporize herb it isn't convection in practice. I don't know of any vaporizer that doesnt heat the air that touches the heater to some extent. Doesn't mean they're all convection vaporizers.
Now if you're saying the heater air helps by not cooling the load down more than it does then sure, but that isn't convection vaporization in any way and shouldn't be labeled as such.
IMO this vape is hybrid because you can pack small loads that don't even make contact with the oven floor and they will still vaporize.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I’m reposting this here since it should be in this thread. This is how the Arizer portables work. I’ve done the tests and confirmed them with Arizer.
————————-
A lot of the convection/conduction debate is about semantics, I think. I’ve had it out with manufacturers before about vapes being called convection just because the power was being applied only to the heater and not the herb chamber.
Here’s how I see it. I only look at it from the perspective of the herbs. How is heat applied to them? I don’t care how we heat the bowl since I’m not vaping that...I care about the herbs!
With that as a baseline for definition and perspective, we can classify vapes as heating by conduction, convection, or both (don’t get me started on radiation), also loosely called a hybrid. If the herbs in a vape are heated by a hot air stream as well as a heated bowl or secondary heat like conduction from a bowl heated through radiation, I call it a hybrid.
I’ve been chasing portable convection for nearly ten years now, and now that I’m collecting real data from temp tests I’m becoming convinced that we all like conduction more than we know. The Mighty is a crowd favorite and many consider that S&B has found the special mix in their portables to give us flavorful, thick, consistent hits, often citing how much convection it must have. I thought the same until I dropped a probe in a Mighty. Turns out the oven is brought to temp on the first convection hit but stays pretty stable after that, yielding mostly conduction hits thereafter. Temp drops between hits weren’t more than 30 degrees, iirc. I haven’t repeated it enough to feel it’s gospel, but I’m working on it.
Arizer portables have the heating system directly fixed to the bowl, which is in direct contact with the glass stem, so it appears to be a conduction system. Certainly the majority of energy from it is being conducted into the system. But there are two things that make theseportables different from the flowermate style of portables. First, the heater is upwind, so air entering the system passes over the heater, through the holes in the bowl, over the hot bowl and glass before hitting the herbs. The air robs the system of heat as it flows through, carrying it into the herbs via convection. All this robbing cools the system and it needs to recover, which is why it appears to behave like a conduction vape. I was fooled by this for years until actual measurements were taken. Second, the glass stem acts as a heat barrier between the metal bowl and the herbs. It gets hot, but not as hot as the system, all due to glass being in there. If we direct packed the Arizer portables they would probably be full conduction.Instead, I see a bigger temp drop in the herb chamber of Arizer portables between hits due to the glass barrier than I do in the Mighty.
That’s what the tests show. I’m convinced our speculationabout how Arizer portables works has been wrong foryears. I used to say they were mostly conduction if not allconduction, now I don’t based on tests instead ofspeculation.
————————-
A lot of the convection/conduction debate is about semantics, I think. I’ve had it out with manufacturers before about vapes being called convection just because the power was being applied only to the heater and not the herb chamber.
Here’s how I see it. I only look at it from the perspective of the herbs. How is heat applied to them? I don’t care how we heat the bowl since I’m not vaping that...I care about the herbs!
With that as a baseline for definition and perspective, we can classify vapes as heating by conduction, convection, or both (don’t get me started on radiation), also loosely called a hybrid. If the herbs in a vape are heated by a hot air stream as well as a heated bowl or secondary heat like conduction from a bowl heated through radiation, I call it a hybrid.
I’ve been chasing portable convection for nearly ten years now, and now that I’m collecting real data from temp tests I’m becoming convinced that we all like conduction more than we know. The Mighty is a crowd favorite and many consider that S&B has found the special mix in their portables to give us flavorful, thick, consistent hits, often citing how much convection it must have. I thought the same until I dropped a probe in a Mighty. Turns out the oven is brought to temp on the first convection hit but stays pretty stable after that, yielding mostly conduction hits thereafter. Temp drops between hits weren’t more than 30 degrees, iirc. I haven’t repeated it enough to feel it’s gospel, but I’m working on it.
Arizer portables have the heating system directly fixed to the bowl, which is in direct contact with the glass stem, so it appears to be a conduction system. Certainly the majority of energy from it is being conducted into the system. But there are two things that make theseportables different from the flowermate style of portables. First, the heater is upwind, so air entering the system passes over the heater, through the holes in the bowl, over the hot bowl and glass before hitting the herbs. The air robs the system of heat as it flows through, carrying it into the herbs via convection. All this robbing cools the system and it needs to recover, which is why it appears to behave like a conduction vape. I was fooled by this for years until actual measurements were taken. Second, the glass stem acts as a heat barrier between the metal bowl and the herbs. It gets hot, but not as hot as the system, all due to glass being in there. If we direct packed the Arizer portables they would probably be full conduction.Instead, I see a bigger temp drop in the herb chamber of Arizer portables between hits due to the glass barrier than I do in the Mighty.
That’s what the tests show. I’m convinced our speculationabout how Arizer portables works has been wrong foryears. I used to say they were mostly conduction if not allconduction, now I don’t based on tests instead ofspeculation.
OF
Well-Known Member
Yes, at least sometimes. Try it with a different lead size (which I think Sticks did?) and you get different numbers for the 'at rest' temperature. It's a numbers game, common to this technique. The usual tactic is to 'swamp' the effect, that is overpower it. That is replace heat fast enough so the load doesn't cause an offset (offsets are sign of heat flow in the ideal). If the herb conducted well (relative to the need) there would be no such offset? This means the indicated temperature is low for what it would be without the probe drawing heat out. Automatically. By an amount you can estimate. In some practices you use several T/Cs with different size leads to estimate a 'zero lead' measurement, but that too is fraught with peril.
I follow the definition part, it's the details. In order to transfer energy in to support vapor production in real time using a 'light' (low specific heat) fluid like air we're going to need more heat than 400F I think. Which is why vapes like VG have so much heat on tap and can cause combustion if you're not careful. And I think the air up the vents is way less than 400F, something that we should be able to test? It's not that there is necessarily zero convection contribution it's just that it's nowhere near enough for the job? "Heat soak" is another name for conduction?
Yep, I agree fully. This is the trade off with 'the horrible milkshake draw'. For sure Arizer tested lots of different configurations and decided on the restriction based on that. Any competent company would? No doubt to keep complaints to a minimum ironically......
PV filled in with the custom stems for those who wanted to 'press the envelope'.
But the customer (the guy 'always right') demanded less restriction and now has it. Then again we also demanded 'use while charging' so they took out the superior system they went to a lot of trouble and expense to design in the original Solo. Unfortunate, but understood. The way 'it always happens'?
The heater actually recovers pretty fast, easily within a cycle. It's a 'duty cycle regulated'. Full time it's way too powerful and must be 'throttled back' after it reaches working temperature. Heat loss alone will cycle it. That is it turns on every 15 seconds or so (having lost enough heat through conduction to the outside world, a bit of it hot air up the vent) absent any extra load and stays on as long (percentage of the total cycle) as needed to 'top up the heat reservoir' . If more heat is needed (according to the sensor....) it simply stays on until that's not so. The cup closely tracks the sensor (hopefully), the load less so.
Mflb
Describing the MFLB I share your affirmations 100% Of, convective air cool down the load, with arizer just the opposite (proved by temperature probing)
Agreed, although I maintain the IR contribution is again trivial. It's a straight conduction vape for practical puropses, only the small fraction of the load in direct contact with the mesh 'vapes'. That's why you have to 'shake, shake, shake'?
But I don't think there's enough IR happening and when I went to school it didn't reflect off grody wood well at all...... Sales would like it to be IR, and it might be so at some minor level but my money's on convection to the part of the load on the bottom. And you're right, let the vapor collect nd sip it away slowly.....not to waste even a bit of that wonderful heat making all that lovely vapor is the call. All air can do is make it worse. We want just enough to replace the vapor and no more, thank you very much.
Thank you very much. "Merry Christmas to us all" as Tiny Tim famously said? A good time for reflecting/celebrating the blessings of life and the family and friends we share it with.
IMO we have much to be thankful for, not the least of which are exciting new products for us to pick from. Pretty cool.
Sorry, I'm not being clear enough. And I'm not sure I follow you. Two different cases?
I don't follow the 'missing the point of the glass stem' part, but I think I agreed (a few times?) that flow of hotter air from else where in the load as the hit starts overcomes the artificial drop locally (herb conducts poorly). But that heat was mostly already in the load, stored 'at temperature' by conduction?
The T/C is now responding to the flow of vapor since that's overcoming the loss the herb couldn't support by conduction (or so I see it). Ironically convection of a different sort is in play? What I'd expect from my understanding at any rate. It all fits I think.
The 'bringing cold air in' is a system POV thing. If the air through the vents isn't hotter than 400F it will need to be heated to that as it passes through the load by conduction from the hotter load? This hinges on my assumption (with all that brings) that the input air through the vents can't be anything close to the metal temperature since only a tiny fraction makes contact and contact itself is brief and isn't absolute (there's 'insulation' of sort, slowing the heat transfer). Heat exchangers always show a drop between source and load, dependent on heat flow rate. "Degrees C per Watt" kind of specifications. The air through your car's radiator is never hotter than the water is. No matter the flow rate. Again, an insulation of sorts. The bigger the flow of heat, the bigger the drop in temperature for any given material.
So if there's any conduction at all in the load the observation that there's a temperature difference 'across the glass' is proof there's heat flow through it. If we know some numbers (area, temperature drop, and so on) we can look up the material and calculate the calories (or Joules or BTUs...) flowing. This (drop of temperature due to flow) is why I maintain the T/C probe is reading the way it is.
I'm making a hash of this, post is entirely too long I guess. But the herbs are cooler because something is drawing heat out faster than the glass can pass it in. All makes sense in my tiny little mind. Same as everyone I guess I believe because it fits with my concept of reality?
Again, Merry Christmas to all our readers. Both of them.
OF
stickstones
Vapor concierge
@OF , what’s keeping you from taking your meter and your Arizer portables and repeating the tests? I’ve shown what the temp is doing during a session both outside and inside the bowl. Stu has has run tests that confirmed what’s going on inside the bowl. You keep posting ideas and theories, but why not join the real party and post some actual findings? I’m confident you’ll get results that contradict a decent amount of what you are saying about these portables.
ohmygodimsohigh
Well-Known Member
I think that is the root of controversy here.
Convection and vapor production are unrelated.
Convection is the transfer of heat via air or liquid.
in its simplest definition, convection is "the transfer of heat"
There is no numeric threshold or validators - those are all things made up and puked out in internet arguments
If I point a hair dryer at a watermelon, it's going to heat it up via convection.
The watermelon will not vaporize, but it will warm up.
What would you prefer that we call heat energy moving through a fluid from one place to another? Guacamole?
To keep semantics at bay, let me ask a simple question that all this really boils down to for me:
During a draw, does the temperature of the herb in the bowl either:
A) Increase?
B) Decrease?
I can show you examples of both. First, the Haze V3, a popular vape here in FCland.
As you can see, the answer to the question I posed in this case is "B". The incoming air is not hotter than the load, thus cooling it during the draw.
Now contrast that to the Solo:
Clearly the answer to my proposed question is "A" for the Solo. The incoming air is hotter than the load, thus heating it further. This clearly shows guacamole is in play here.
Hey, I just made an entire post without invoking a single "C" word!
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You can load a small bowl which does not even touch the conductive floor and still vaporize the load. Done it many times, even busted the old Air out last night just to make sure.
OF
Well-Known Member
Two reasons, actually, since I have two meters? One is on loan and not convenient to retrieve, the other is hiding somewhere here (I hope).
But I've done this before with Solo and remember what I found. I did the same sort of thing with Ascent, as somewhat similar deal, which led to the glass flowers idea (heat reservoir in the load).
I agree, I'd no doubt measure just what you do. The difference is I interpret it differently and think your results explain my 'take'.....as they would have to.
But one of you fine fellows with working meters handy could run a useful experiment for us I think? Measure the convection air temperature? Should be easy in a first pass, just pull the stem up enough so there's no conduction going on and see how hot the air coming through is? Even with the benefit of the cup walls to help I bet it's way shy of 200F on average? Probably closer to 100?
You might have to shield the cup, maybe come up with some inner sample tube, if that is significant, but I'm guess that won't change it much.
I just did a quick check with an empty short stem on an empty bowl on step 7. Lots of long draws made it a bit warm. I switched to one with a domed screen in the bottom, by putting it inside the seal, just above the cup I was able to make it warm, but nothing I couldn't touch. I don't think there's enough hot enough air to do us any real good making vapor.
I would not suggest touching the cup, or glass that's been contacting it however. Nor sucking on a VG with no load in place.
Regards to all.
OF