Anybody gone edibles only?

[Farid]

I don't touch edibles because I'm really sensitive to THC. Even with perfectly dosed edibles your body processes them differently depending on a number of variables. So some days you could get a lot stronger effects, even with the exact same dose.

 

[shredder]

I don't touch edibles because I'm really sensitive to THC. Even with perfectly dosed edibles your body processes them differently depending on a number of variables. So some days you could get a lot stronger effects, even with the exact same dose.

I don't think it's that different from vaping as far as varying results. With time each method becomes more predictable.

Edible users have the same tolerance issues and unpredictable results from new products, but dissipate with repetition.

 

[Truth Seeker]

What kind of edibles were they?
Were they full of butter and cholesterol and stuff?

Even vaporized THC is processed by the liver eventually so it would make me think your results were from something in the edibles themselves.

He said it was in MCT oil (tincture) so it is a bit concerning that it took it that high and when he stopped for a week and redid the lab work the results went to normal. This totally freaks me out because I have to watch tryglericdes and my blood sugar. He said his diet didn't change and him and the Doc narrowed it to the tincture. This totally freaks me out my friend as I've been eating decarb bud only (off all inhalation) and now I stopped that til I figure this out.

 

[Nina]

your body processes them differently depending on a number of variables

for me the crucial thing seems to be timing relative to meals and what was eaten, I take my edible a few hours after a meal with low fat content and about 15 minutes before I eat the next meal, it kicks in just in time to enhance the pudding section of said meal. Once I took it during a meal and it didnt seem to land at all!

 

[Farid]

Varying metabolism, and what's in your stomach when you eat them is the big variable. I can't think of anything with vaping that's quite that variable (except if maybe you've been inhaling dirty air/ smoking cigarettes before you vape).

 

[Zipford]

Can we infer that edible cannabis is more likely to be a problem if your liver is injured or compromised in some way?
That those without pre-existing liver problems are probably ok?
(Obviously it makes sense to have a blood test anyway just in case)

Just to clarify, I don't have any liver issues and my doctor was not primarily concerned about my liver, he was concerned that the high triglycerides could trigger acute pancreatitis. I do have a history of high triglycerides, but nothing even close to over 1,000 -- more like 200, but it's possible that I am just more susceptible because of that, or maybe there was an interaction between the edibles and my blood pressure or cholesterol medications.

I don't think what I experienced is common, and when I looked into it at the time, it seemed that there were cases of cannabis-induced acute pancreatitis, but while high triglycerides can cause acute pancreatitis and cannabis can increase triglycerides, I didn't find anyone putting that all together. Overall, I think this is a rare phenomena.

To invertedisdead's question, it was a MCT oil based tincture, but I don't think 25 drops of any oil would make much difference to my triglycerides from a dietary perspective, because it's probably like 1/4 teaspoon of oil. Though I suppose it is possible my body was reacting strangely to the MCT oil, and not to the cannabis, or maybe to the two together. I didn't dig deeper into that, because I wasn't going to risk switching edibles to see where my number would be in 3 months. I did take the risk of continuing to use cannabis via vaping, but that was based on my understanding that while all THC in your blood gets to the liver eventually, there are difference in how the body metabolizes edibles versus inhaling vapor into your lungs.

 

[organic weed]

In terms of tolerance, I found that mine plateaued at around 25 mg. That is with daily use, but just once a day. Onset would be a little over an hour after taking it, with the effects lasting around 2 hours. Getting the dose right does take some trial and error, and probably a few days of getting little to no effect.

With regard to triglycerides, they were over 1,000 so truly very high. I had quit alcohol a few months before entirely in favor of edibles, so was expecting improvements in my bloodwork. When my doctor called with the alarming results, I quit the edibles for 4-5 days and had another blood draw, and my triglycerides were back to normal. It turns out that THC can cause the body to overproduce a protein ApoC-111, which is linked to elevated triglycerides. I was taking about 25 mg of tincture daily. Interestingly, daily vaping does not have the same effect, and if anything my numbers are better than before, but it is well known that processing THC through the liver has a different effect.

If you're using edibles once in a while it's probably no big deal at all. But if you're going to take edibles on a regular basis, it's worth knowing about the triglycerides.

@Zipford is this valid for tinctures as well? Or only edibles because the liver needs to process the fat AND the THC attached to it?

If that's the case, it looks like there's no really safe intake route for cannabis. It's either choosing between lung, throat or liver impact. Before quitting inhaling, I moved back to combustion because vaping was way worse for me.

Is it scientifically proved that cannabis ingestion causes high triglycerides in the body? Is there a "safe" limit? Science will need to come up eventually with such estimates.

 

[organic weed]

I was using Wishing Well sativa tincture sold by NETA in Mass, roughly 25 mg every day.

I know I am a sample size of 1, but there are studies that found THC can raise triglycerides. Not specific to edibles per se, but that's just how it luckily turned out for me (I can still vape, after all, and I'm not sure why other than the liver processing THC differently). And I'm sure it doesn't affect everyone the same way -- I don't want to be alarmist, but I did have this very specific situation when I changed to tincture exclusively.

And the chronology is pretty striking. My triglycerides number has been checked for decades and has been in the 200 range forever. I switch to edibles exclusively and 3 months later I'm over 1,000. I quit edibles for a handful of days and my number is back where it started. The obvious alternate explanation is a faulty test, though I tend to doubt that (and in my case would have been motivated reasoning: I don't want to quit edibles, so I'll assume the test was wrong.)

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, although I think too many people consider cannabis an unalloyed good thing. It's wonderful, but it's still a drug, and this was just a weird side effect I experienced personally.

@shredder I didn't get it properly. Was the high try level associated to edibles, tincture or both?

 

[organic weed]

The tincture I was using was based on MCT oil, not alcohol -- it was the Wishing Well tincture sold by NETA in Mass. I also quit alcohol very close to 100%, but not strictly like an alcoholic would. I thought (and still think) cannabis would be healthier than alcohol, but the small amount in a tincture would have been OK with me. But it just happened that what I was buying had MCT oil instead of alcohol.

@Zipford what about producing your own tincture, knowing what you put inside? I would be interesting to know if it would make a difference

 

[Shadooz]

or maybe there was an interaction between the edibles and my blood pressure or cholesterol medications.

Knowing the cytotochrome p450, of the liver, triggered by cannabinoide.

Lot of drug have interaction with cannabinoides, due to their enzymes, an increased assimilation mostly, .

https://cdn-cbnke.nitrocdn.com/LTrbZVEtFaZHwuzcVTuudIARDtPMyadh/assets/static/optimized/rev-0a47d3e/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/liste-57med.png

Delta-9-Tetrahydrocannabinol and Cannabidiol Drug-Drug Interactions

Abstract. Although prescribing information (PI) is often the initial source of information when identifying potential drug-drug interactions, it may only provide a limited number of exemplars or only reference a class of medications without providing any specific medication examples. In the case...

www.karger.com

Knowing Your alcohol stop, which have help build up lipid inside your liver.
And with a Cholesterol medication ?

But Only a liver biopsy could have help to say from which interaction come the Tryglicerides.

 

[Zipford]

@Zipford is this valid for tinctures as well? Or only edibles because the liver needs to process the fat AND the THC attached to it?

If that's the case, it looks like there's no really safe intake route for cannabis. It's either choosing between lung, throat or liver impact. Before quitting inhaling, I moved back to combustion because vaping was way worse for me.

Is it scientifically proved that cannabis ingestion causes high triglycerides in the body? Is there a "safe" limit? Science will need to come up eventually with such estimates.

I don't know whether a different form of edibles would have avoided the situation. I had eaten other edibles previously, but once I was taking edibles exclusively, I had landed on tincture as the best route for me (very easy to adjust the dose slightly, as opposed to 5 mg gummies), and I was only using tincture at the time. So my specific case was limited to tinctures. I never tried to make my own tincture -- I hoped that vaping would not affect me the same way, and that has turned out to be correct so far.

The problem with this being the experience of one person is it is impossible to truly rule out other possibilities, like the MCT oil affecting me or an interaction with a prescription drug I was taking. All I can say is I didn't change anything else when I switched on and off tincture, and the use and stopping of tincture were both associated with large swings in my triglycerides (up and down). I started using tincture daily and my numbers went super high, I then stopped tincture and they came back down. Nobody could say that was the cause in a scientifically valid sense, given the situation involved just one person and we did not try to isolate the cause further.

I will say, there are scientific papers claiming a connection between cannabis use and acute pancreatitis in a small number of cases, the exact thing my doctor was worried about with my high triglycerides. And there are studies saying cannabis use can raise triglycerides. I didn't find anything that put it all together, but I just found myself all of a sudden with crisis level bloodwork, which certainly seemed to be caused by my tincture intake, given the association between starting/stopping tincture and my numbers going up and down.

I also want to say again that even assuming I am correct and tincture caused this effect in me, that doesn't mean others will see the same thing.

 

[shredder]

I also want to say again that even assuming I am correct and tincture caused this effect in me, that doesn't mean others will see the same thing.

@shredder I didn't get it properly. Was the high try level associated to edibles, tincture or both

If your talking about my triglyceride levels they weren't that much over normal. They're actually lower than when I drank more.

I'd just say, if anyone is concerned take it up with your Dr, and get your blood tested frequently.

I don't see it as an issue for most people, just another thing to keep an eye on.

I do appreciate @Zipford bringing it up though because someone else here might have this problem as well.

 

[Nina]

if anyone is concerned take it up with your Dr, and get your blood tested frequently.

I agree!
I'm really getting into the effects of edibles but considering long term having one night of vaping to mix things up a bit, plus it's bound to feel like getting stoned for the first time ever after a break from pulmonary route cannabinoids?

 

[jeffp]

Edibles for me are an evening thing when I'm free to melt away.
I generate a fairly abundant quantity of ABV of different strains so the quality of the edibles is very rich.
Occasionally I'll purchase an ounce of shake for edibles, and very often I'll make CBD flower edibles as well.
Paired with vaping bud, high dose CBD edibles take the high in a different and interesting direction.

 

[Nina]

Paired with vaping bud, high dose CBD edibles take the high in a different and interesting direction

so many enticing rabbit holes to explore

 

[Shadooz]

which certainly seemed to be caused by my tincture intake, given the association between starting/stopping tincture and my numbers going up and down.

If your talking about my triglyceride levels they weren't that much over normal. They're actually lower than when I drank more.

I'd just say, if anyone is concerned take it up with your Dr, and get your blood tested frequently.

I don't see it as an issue for most people, just another thing to keep an eye on.

I do appreciate @Zipford bringing it up though because someone else here might have this problem as well.

With A picture of the belly, or even titties..
Or with a BMI>25
My bet would go on a liver lipid dump.
Enzymatic lipolysis/esterification induced by cannabinoids, maybe, but too late for a liver biopsy..

Fatty Liver Disease: Alcoholic and Nonalcoholic Types

Heavy drinking puts you at a greater risk for fatty liver, but you can get it even due to obesity and other reasons. Learn more about the symptoms, causes, and treatment for NAFLD and AFLD.

www.webmd.com

Mechanisms of intrahepatic triglyceride accumulation - PMC

Hepatic steatosis defined as lipid accumulation in hepatocytes is very frequently found in adults and obese adolescents in the Western World. Etiologically, obesity and associated insulin resistance or excess alcohol intake are the most frequent ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pharmacological intervention of liver triacylglycerol lipolysis: The good, the bad and the ugly - PubMed

Excessive triacylglycerol (TG) accumulation is the distinctive feature of obesity. In the liver, sustained TG accretion leads to nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), eventually progressing to non-alcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) and cirrhosis, which is associated with complications...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pharmacological intervention of liver triacylglycerol lipolysis: The good, the bad and the ugly​

But yes, i'm still the ugly.. d'oh

 

[Truth Seeker]

With A picture of the belly, or even titties..
Or with a BMI>25
My bet would go on a liver lipid dump.
Enzymatic lipolysis/esterification induced by cannabinoids, maybe, but too late for a liver biopsy..

Fatty Liver Disease: Alcoholic and Nonalcoholic Types

Heavy drinking puts you at a greater risk for fatty liver, but you can get it even due to obesity and other reasons. Learn more about the symptoms, causes, and treatment for NAFLD and AFLD.

www.webmd.com

Mechanisms of intrahepatic triglyceride accumulation - PMC

Hepatic steatosis defined as lipid accumulation in hepatocytes is very frequently found in adults and obese adolescents in the Western World. Etiologically, obesity and associated insulin resistance or excess alcohol intake are the most frequent ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pharmacological intervention of liver triacylglycerol lipolysis: The good, the bad and the ugly - PubMed

Excessive triacylglycerol (TG) accumulation is the distinctive feature of obesity. In the liver, sustained TG accretion leads to nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), eventually progressing to non-alcoholic steatohepatitis (NASH) and cirrhosis, which is associated with complications...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pharmacological intervention of liver triacylglycerol lipolysis: The good, the bad and the ugly​

But yes, i'm still the ugly.. d'oh

So you think that the edibles/tincture etc is not responsible for any elevated Trys?

 

[Shadooz]

So you think that the edibles/tincture etc is not responsible for any elevated Trys?

No, i've said it is a possible

Enzymatic lipolysis/esterification induced by cannabinoids, maybe, but too late for a liver biopsy..

Same way cannabinoids have liver enzymatics interaction with some drugs

Knowing the cytotochrome p450, of the liver, triggered by cannabinoide.

Lot of drug have interaction with cannabinoides, due to their enzymes, an increased assimilation mostly, .

Knowing that few about him. Only his triglyceride up/down. Don't even know
his usual meds...?, how his weight have changed..? (up ? Down? The titty picture i "ask" isn't a dumb "request", (higher oestrogen, and so male tits, is sign of diseased liver. but oestrogen hydroxylation catalyzed have the same p450 pathway too..)

Therefore we can't aim If TG come from adipose tissue lipolysis, (fat burner effect?..)
or from the liver itself..? And so if liver, could be an Enzymatic Increased assimilation, as what have already been shown for some drugs. But could also be liver lipolysis/esterification unbalance..

Without liver biopsy, We can only "bet" with that blood results,.. why i have said "bet", not talking about diagnosis...

Hmmm what's up, doc ..?

 

[Zipford]

No, i've said it is a possible



Same way cannabinoids have liver enzymatics interaction with some drugs



Knowing that few about him. Only his triglyceride up/down. Don't even know
his usual meds...?, how his weight have changed..? (up ? Down? The titty picture i "ask" isn't a dumb "request", (higher oestrogen, and so male tits, is sign of diseased liver. but oestrogen hydroxylation catalyzed have the same p450 pathway too..)

Therefore we can't aim If TG come from adipose tissue lipolysis, (fat burner effect?..)
or from the liver itself..? And so if liver, could be an Enzymatic Increased assimilation, as what have already been shown for some drugs. But could also be liver lipolysis/esterification unbalance..

Without liver biopsy, We can only "bet" with that blood results,.. why i have said "bet", not talking about diagnosis...

Hmmm what's up, doc ..?

I love you all, but you're not going to biopsy my liver (too late, anyway). I tried to make clear that I did not make any other material changes over the relevant time period. I get routine blood tests and don't have any liver problems whatsoever, let alone high estrogen and moobs caused by liver disease. So no pics of my chest either, sorry.

To be honest, I don't understand the medical phrases you're using (Enzymatic Increased assimilation, adipose tissue lipolysis), so I can't say whether they might more plausibly explain both the rise and fall of my triglycerides.

I would agree there could be other possibilities to explain my test results, some of which I have pointed out. But again, my doctor who knows my entire medical chart, medical history and drug regimen, felt that the edibles were the most likely explanation. Even if that is correct, the effect could still be caused by an interaction between the tincture and the other prescription drugs I take -- it was a semi-urgent situation, and with the edibles being the obvious change I had made, and me only having one follow-up blood test to take something out and see if my number would come down, I chose to stop the edibles and not my blood pressure or cholesterol medications.

I don't think it is possible to draw a scientifically valid conclusion from the experience of one person, at least not without much more testing to rule things out, but I thought it was worth offering up my experience for anyone considering switching 100% to edibles.

 

[Shadooz]

I love you all, but you're not going to biopsy my liver (too late, anyway). I tried to make clear that I did not make any other material changes over the relevant time period. I get routine blood tests and don't have any liver problems whatsoever, let alone high estrogen and moobs caused by liver disease. So no pics of my chest either, sorry.

* "Any known liver disease.."
I didn't ask u to do a liver biopsy. Just said it was the only test needed to know further..
The "pics of the chest" was to point out our absolut unknowing about your usual conditions...

I chose to stop the edibles and not my blood pressure or cholesterol medications.

Here we are..
U never mention which drugs, and ammount.
Why I've put an interaction chart on my first post..!

All the statine group have interaction !

List of Statins + Uses, Types & Side Effects - Drugs.com

Statins (also called HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors) block an enzyme called HMG-CoA reductase that is involved in making cholesterol. Specifically, statins block the synthesis of mevalonate, which is a precursor to sterols such as cholesterol.

www.drugs.com

Statine are enzymatic inhibitor, while, as i said, cannabinoid are enzymatic activator.. p450

And For the blood pressure... "bisoprolol, or propranolol" (as exemple) are known for interactions...

"Liver" double penetrations..


U just throw at us TG peak after droplet of mct oil, without any deep reasonement and a superficial statement.
While having known interactive medication.. (hidden to us in your statement), of at least two interactive ones..

To be honest, I don't understand the medical phrases you're using (Enzymatic Increased assimilation, adipose tissue lipolysis), so I can't say whether they might more plausibly explain both the rise and fall of my triglycerides.

That wasn't for u..
But i Don't know if some readers/lurkers can go that deep anyway.. only specialist can follow me on that. Not even your doctor..

felt that the edibles were the most likely explanation.

Correlation is far from being an explanation.

I don't think it is possible to draw a scientifically valid conclusion from the experience of one person

Yes it is, but with the right doctor and more intrusive test. (Again, didn't say u had to do them..)
Cause u'r not alone to use tincture.
Sativex is used in france, with people having Blood test. And no direct basic correlation have been done with only cannabinoids and TG. (Without other drugs.) Yet.

PS : Cannabinoids have been proven, (without interaction) to reduce by 25% cholesterol. And reduce triglycerine (by unknown ammount).
As being a way for type 2 diabetus too..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://hal.univ-lorraine.fr/hal-01732943/document&ved=2ahUKEwi2gKK425b1AhVMyYUKHRDaB_8QFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2vcWwO3KOmmQ9aQz737AJF

(French pharma thesis, just ti cite my source, i kniw no one except le can read it here..)

Rimonabant story, of 2006, used as weight loose, then withdraw because of psychatric disorder..

If only humankind medicine was at good level.. you have one of the best natural potentiator/inhibitor under your nose..

 

[Nina]

I thought it was worth offering up my experience for anyone considering switching 100% to edibles.

Thanks again for sharing your experience, knowledge is power

 

[Zipford]

* "Any known liver disease.."
I didn't ask u to do a liver biopsy. Just said it was the only test needed to know further..
The "pics of the chest" was to point out our absolut unknowing about your usual conditions...


Here we are..
U never mention which drugs, and ammount.
Why I've put an interaction chart on my first post..!

All the statine group have interaction !

List of Statins + Uses, Types & Side Effects - Drugs.com

Statins (also called HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors) block an enzyme called HMG-CoA reductase that is involved in making cholesterol. Specifically, statins block the synthesis of mevalonate, which is a precursor to sterols such as cholesterol.

www.drugs.com

Statine are enzymatic inhibitor, while, as i said, cannabinoid are enzymatic activator.. p450

And For the blood pressure... "bisoprolol, or propranolol" (as exemple) are known for interactions...

"Liver" double penetrations..


U just throw at us TG peak after droplet of mct oil, without any deep reasonement and a superficial statement.
While having known interactive medication.. (hidden to us), at least two interactive ones..



That wasn't for u..
But i Don't know if some readers/lurkers can go that deep anyway.. only specialist can follow me on that. Not even your doctor..


Correlation is far from being an explanation.


Yes it is, but with the right doctor and more intrusive test. (Again, didn't say u had to do them..)
Cause u'r not alone to use tincture.
Sativex is used in france, with people having Blood test. And no direct basic correlation have been done with only cannabinoids and TG. (Without other drugs.) Yet.

I think you are being pretty defensive for some reason. By quoting "known liver disease" you seem to imply that I have liver disease and just don't know it despite my routine blood testing, and that I experienced a "liver lipid dump," would you mind explaining what that is? If you understand something, you can explain it simply and don't need to use medical jargon (this is a vape-related board, not a board full of doctors, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't know what you mean with those phrases).

I infer that you think when I stopped drinking alcohol, all of the triglycerides stored in my presumably (yet undiagnosed) fatty liver were released into my blood, resulting in super high triglycerides. And if that is what you're saying, it doesn't explain why they dropped back to normal 6 days after stopping edibles, unless they were dropping on their own and that is just a huge coincidence (not a big believer in those).

If you want to take a shot at possible drug interactions, which is frankly an obvious possibility that I personally acknowledged several times, at the time I was taking Levothyroxine, Simvastatin, Metoprolol Succinate and Quinapril. I'd be happy if you were able to say there is a known interaction between one of them and cannabis. I'm not invested in edibles being some huge problem for everyone in the world, just relaying my experience. Maybe I'm one in a million. Maybe everyone knows Simvastatin reacts with cannabis this exact way. Maybe I had this "liver lipid dump" that was waning already and the edibles got wrongly blamed.

I suspect there is a language barrier here, but FYI, saying "U just throw at us TG peak after droplet of mct oil, without any deep reasonement and a superficial statement" is both false and insulting. I was dealing with a real life medical crisis and making real life decisions. Not diagnosing someone I never met over the internet. Sure, maybe it wasn't the edibles despite no real adequate alternate explanation (other than calling the test wrong), but I assure you that me and my doctor aren't just a pair of idiots not paying attention to what was going on.

 

[Shadooz]

Simvastatin

Simvastatin,... statin... statin..

I stop the vulgarisation, sry.

 

[Zipford]

Simvastatin,... statin... statin..

I stop the vulgarisation, sry.

No need to apologize, I have a reasonably thick skin! I know Simvastatin is a statin, I told you the specific one in case you could shed light on that one in particular.

I am still genuinely interested in what you mean by a liver lipid dump, and believe me, I would have preferred to blame my situation on something other than edible cannabis. As I said, I was looking forward to the bloodwork precisely because I though by switching to cannabis, my bloodwork might improve. So, to be fair, I was primed to see changes in my bloodwork as caused by the switch. But what decided it was the numbers being normal after quitting -- that is what is harder to explain with some alternative (but I am open to hearing more).

The real problem is in the US at least, not much research has been done on cannabis. I find it easy to find articles suggesting cannabis cures this, that or the other thing. But real research is pretty sparse in the US.

 

[BabyFacedFinster]

The last couple days I've clicked on this thread thinking it was a discussion on edibles, and each day I'm dissappointed to see that it's all about @Zipford's liver.
No offense @Zipford. I'm sure you have a fine liver.