bossman
Gentleman Of Leisure
Maybe just press pause on your evaluation of the vape landscape and see what you think when your new toys arrive
Advice needed - next vape(s)
- Thread starter JollyGreenGiant
- Start date
Maybe just press pause on your evaluation of the vape landscape and see what you think when your new toys arrive
stonedmallone
Well-Known Member
So yes, I would, but definitely not immediately. The vapbong and flowerpot would be instant pull out phone and 1 click buy that shit immediately (if they were that easy to buy of course lol).
While I do love the volcano, it just doesn't get enough frequent use for me to replace immediately. So I guess the answer to the question is technically no. But I would eventually replace it when there's a sale or something because I would like to always have one
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
1. It's a two-decade old design - with minimal improvements. It's not like a Porsche 911, where the spirit of the design stays the same, but small improvements year after year transform the overall product into an entirely different league every 5-7 years. At it's core, the hybrid is a popcorn popper unit, obviously a better built one, but it's uninspiring. Sure, it's one of the first commercial vapor products that did a halfway decent job, and it sure lasts - but how often do hair dryers need to be replaced? Basic heating devices (heat guns, etc) tend to last a very long time... so this is to be expected, not revered.
2. The vapor flavor is also middle of the road (and I have the Obsidian Bubbler piece for it as well), and for me, really isn't much better than a Mighty+, especially if the mighty+ has the bubble straw attachment which bypasses the plastic cooling unit. In fact - I think the Mighty+ is about identical with the bubble straw, the cooling unit is the flavor robber on the Mighty+ - so unless you are a diehard balloon fan, or need a party piece - it doesn't seem to have a lot of appeal.
3. It's $700, and you do really need to buy a fair number of accessories for it if you're going to use it with any kind of frequency, or if you want/need more versatility. A glass bubbler head unit, chamber reducer for smaller sessions, dust cap, etc - so all in, if you're buying at MSRP, you're looking at over $900 - and for half that price, you can get a reasonably similar solo experience from a Mighty+ with a bubble straw, and then you've got a portable, battery powered unit that (to me) has a far better value proposition. With that said though - I also wouldn't buy another Mighty+ either.
I don't dislike either unit as a whole - but I am also not overly impressed with them and wouldn't buy either a second time. I dig the S&B capsules concept, the price of the capsules, the filling kit, etc - but the actual vapor units themselves, while solid at their initial launch (not the + or hybrid, but original Mighty and Volcano) just don't do it for me.... but to each their own. With that said - for purely medical purposes, for someone who doesn't care about the terp flavor, and doesn't want to geek out on the gear - these would be my top recommendations for a desktop and portable unit.
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
Not sure I follow - what do the new toys have to do with it? They do the exact same thing - they are both simple devices that apply convective heat to the material - and not much else. Regardless of their power, efficiency, etc - still incredibly basic devices. Why not have a small machine like the old clover coffee machine, where you scan/input the type/strain and it grinds and extracts the cannabis to optimize flavor and affect based on the strain? Why not have some small jars in said machine that stores different strains, and monitors humidity, etc - and suggests which product(s) you should use first, based on their readiness/optimal humidity, age, etc? Why not have a small forced air evaporative cooling system the vapor passes through to increase humidity to match ambient room humidity, and reduce temp to room temp, so as to not shock/irritate your soft tissues in any way shape or form?
These are all technologies that exist today, aren't very expensive and can be found in suitable form factors.
Imagine taking a full lung hit of vapor, that was no different than a big inhale of water from an ultrasonic atomizing piezoelectric transducer. It would be nearly as easy and comfortable as taking a normal breath - but depending on ambient temp and humidity and the force of the air assist, it might even be easier than taking a normal breath.
There are so many products that could be integrated together into something revolutionary, not evolutionary. Just look at a basic CPAP or APAC machine with a built-in auto humidification system, and ozone generation side-car's, for touchless disinfection. Combine that with a variable grinder, or a multi-plate system, and integrate a vaping device into that system, and all of a sudden you're close to something very unique. Look at how much is going on with a basic all in one super-auto coffee machine? You've got a thermoblock heating system, grinder and dosing capabilities, tamping system, spent product ejection and storage, steam (humidity) production system, etc. Now they're even making centrifugal coffee extraction systems in these machines... but in the land of vaping - the "cutting edge tech" is effectively adding synthetic gems to the convection head? Exposed heating elements you can easily injure yourself with? Systems that require a fair amount of learning/tinkering?
Maybe my expectations are too high - but I bought a robot that not only vacuums my floors, but it detects when there are uncarpeted areas, and it actually mops them, vacuums up the solution it applies to the floor, so it dries in less than a minute, then goes back to its base station and empties itself into a dirty water tank, refills itself with solution, then performs a self-clean. That system was 1/2 the price of the FP B2 premium bundle.
I'm not comparing the quality between the two - or the price in terms of comparative value as the products are apples and oranges, but merely the innovation occurring in other markets, and the price of these innovative products being quite reasonable, so innovative tech could be applied to this space, and still have affordable products. It's important to note - many of these products are VERY low volume, and from small Chinese startups that have only been in business for a few years.... but here in vape land, big news is a device getting its micro-USB port replaced by USB C.
I know it sounds negative, and I'm not trying to pee in anyone's cereal or say the products you own and love, aren't great - I'm merely saying there isn't a specific product I've seen in this space so far, that from a tech/eng perspective I find that inspiring or transformational, beyond the products I purchased over a decade ago. Better? Absolutely... but when one of the top 5 products in this space (in terms of performance) is a homegrown piece of pottery with a primitive heating system - I firmly re-iterate my stance. I know folks can be sensitive, so I'll re-iterate, I'm not dumping on the products - I was about to buy a vapbong, and still may if the right design becomes available - but again, please take a huge step back and just ponder what I said before.... one of the top 5 products in this space (in terms of performance) is a homegrown piece of pottery with a primitive heating system that was designed by a fugitive on the run. Now, think about the beautiful S&B factory, the number of employees they have, R&D budget, etc.... and some hippie who couldn't afford a vape goes out and molds a product out of clay, which hands most of these companies their posteriors.
If that's the state of the market.... there just isn't much innovation. How many products/industries do you know of, where someone could literally go into their garage and build a production quality/ready product, and then start manufacturing them in small quantities, that would stomp on the big boys?
Bottom line - extraction of oil(s) from plant matter without a flame isn't rocket science, but everything around that process (improvement of comfort, consistency, flavor, ease of use, safety, reduction, or elimination of cleaning, reduction or elimination of prep, customization of experience based on datapoints or strain specificy, etc) hasn't been touched in a compelling manner. Having ~50+ different heating devices to choose from, that apply slightly different shapes, and heating profiles to the materials in slightly different ways, isn't what I'd call innovation.
Berzzerkker
Well-Known Member
Agree completely, why aren't we seeing new technology applied to vaporizing cannabis?
The Laws Of Physics
Also innovation costs money and there’s not much money in the weed vape industry. Perhaps if the plant was legal things would be different.
Well for starters the boiling point and condensation point of a substance are identical so there won’t be anything in the hit if you cool it down that much.
That’s the difference between “in theory” and “in practice.”
Do you understand the physical and chemical limitations of performing that process?
Those have been out for quite some time, the reason they aren’t popular is due to major issues in physics which keeps those systems very closed loop. If you’re working with ultra refined absolutes in pure form it’s compelling, but not at all practical or realistic for vaping dried herb.
Actually IMHO if you zoom out and take a macroscopic perspective the bigger question commercially is why even vape flower? Why try and extract cannabinoids crudely on demand when they can be prepared and preserved professionally. The answer to this question is why vaporizing cannabis is far more popular than its ever been, and why prefilled cartridges dominate the industry.
Well it depends on the size of your garage, but I’d reckon this happens in pretty much every industry. Ever heard of Koenigsegg?
stonedmallone
Well-Known Member
So he brings up a thought that I have had on the vapbong. It's one of my favorite vapes and beside the fact that it wrecks you, i love the art of it. But I have at times wondered about the heating element and thought there's probably room for an upgrade here. Not that it really needs any upgrades because it absolutely wrecks you, but still something I have thought.
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
1. As a trained biochemical engineer, who took a strange turn towards datacenter software and hardware early in my career, i'd say I have a reasonable working knowledge of physics... but more important than that - chemistry - Bio, Organic, and Physical. Of the ~60 laws of physics, please refer me to which one addresses the impossibility of cooling vapor. I don't call or consider myself an expert on this topic - even an "internet expert" but I would say I have a far stronger foundation and working knowledge than the average bear if you will.
2. Please explain the relevance of a boiling point, and condensation point (for a material) being equal - I don't follow. This sounds like a hard-hitting fact (and it is a fact), but what's your point? Condensation can occur at any temperature - and is the result of the difference between two temperatures (hence why i'm mentioning ambient humidity/temp sensors, etc). Google it. Think about why your windows fog up when you go into a cold car on a cold day - or why you can see vapor from your breath when the weather is cold.
3. You refer to closed loop canabis vapes that address my ideas (at least I assume in some part) that have been out for some time - can you please provide a link or two, and i'll purchase at least one of them immeidately.
4. RE: why would one vape flower? Frankly, this comment from you I find most troubling/confusing. That's like asking why anyone would roast their own coffee, or buy unground coffee beans they must grind and brew? Why isn't everyone using instant coffee that dissolves into water, or merely getting their caffeine through a pill or mint? It's the flavor - it's the preservation of the base/core material, it's knowing the quality and safety of a product, it's the art, love and passion of a hobby. If you just need a boost of energy a red bull, or a pill will do a better job than coffee, but people LIKE, no - LOVE the taste of coffee... they love the smell of it being roasted, ground, brewed, and the experience of sitting down and enjoying a cup of warm, tasty coffee can be one of life's simplest, and greatest daily pleasures. In my opinion - the same applies to Cannabis - and i'm going to go out on a limb and say, nearly everyone who would create an account and post on a forum like this, at least has a tinge of that general sentiment. If you just want to get high, and you want a vapor to taste like artificial blueberry or muted chemical taste with a tickle of terp, and you trust all the companies making these pods, then by all means have at it. Just like there are a sea of Nespresso fans - no judgement... but there are also a large number of folks who actually like the ritual/process, want to grow their own, and/or grind their own. They want to examine/smell and select their raw material to get the ABOSULTE premo product, and they want to taste and experiment with the best flavor profiles to enjoy and celebrate the difference between strains. As Cannabis becomes increasingly mainstream - you'll see a corresponding increase in connoisseurs. Again, why smoke a $60 cigar, versus slapping on a nicotine patch? (The cigar industry is at an all-time high btw). People love hobbies, and people love to geek out on flavors, it's one of our most beloved senses. I contend that vape cartridges dominate the market because they're cheap (low cost of entry), don't require cleaning or maintenance, are small, don't smell at all when not in use, and - many taste better than herb vapes, as most herb vapes under a few hundred dollars only give you one or two terp hits before quickly going down the popcorn route - so why would someone want to spend $400 on a Mighty+ they have to clean, maintain, charge a lot more often, store and grind material for etc - for that 1 or so decently tasty hit, before it quickly becomes worse than the taste of a small vape cartridge pen?
5. You can't talk about the crippling cost of innovation for a little vaporizer and in the same post use Koenigsegg as an example - full stop. They materially contradict one another - Christian builds multi-million dollar hypercars that are the most performant on earth... and i've been to his facility in Sweden twice, it's no garage. He also didn't create his first hypercar tinkering around in his garage for a week or two like the Vapbong, it was his lifelong journey/focus. Slapping some clay into a bong shape and tossing a heater on it, is hardly a parallel to Koenigsegg. I could buy a VapBong and go to a local pottery studio, give them a heating unit, and have one made/duplicated in a matter of days.... if Koenigsegg gave Toyota one of his cars, how long would it take for the world's largest car company to duplicate, if they could even do it at all? If Koenigsegg can do what he did - why would you think the same couldn't be done in the world of vaporizers? Or perhaps, more realistically - why couldn't there be just 1, or 2 standard deviations of innovation seen? S&B was founded in a garage by one man, and is now a large company, with a giant (and beautiful) factory - so there's a market and fortunes to be made... but my point is - if you were to take the early S&B Volcano's - would the actual vapor output be considerably better than the latest units rolling off the shelf two decades later? In my experience - they aren't. The Hybrid heats up faster, sure - and it has a digital display, and you can attach a whip to it.... but come on - 20 years and that's it? A titanium nail with a titanium head filled with synthetic rubies? That's the groundbreaking, cutting edge? GTFO - from an engineering and innovation perspective - that's a joke, and if I was leading any one of those R&D teams, I'd be firing a lot of folks, and hiring folks from other, faster paced industries - who had no experience working on vaporizers, and ideally weren't Cannabis users. If you get a group of smart engineers together who don't like/use a product - they'll build one they would like/use - and o get to that point - guaranteed it's one that'll stomp the berries of what's out on the market right now.
In industries where there's healthy innovation - no one is going into their garage and in a weekend building something that exceeds the performance of multi-million-dollar organizations that have been at it for decades.... with a device that any of us could get duplicated in a matter of days (actually surprised we aren't seeing a bunch of etsy sellers doing that). Change my mind...
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TheThriftDrifter
Land of the long vapor cloud
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
You totally missed his point on this one by the way, for one thing yes there are a lot of folks who like to make their own concentrates, you're not getting mystery mix shit, pre-filled cartridges, which by the way some of those brands are also very reputable, but that's not what he was saying... We're talking about good pure concentrates, technically those are better than herbs in many ways, and more proper for vaping as well, top tier flavor and effects and purity is very possible... But yeah for the basic cheap pre-filled pens and such, yeah casual users are going to prefer those and not even consider a normal vape for herbs... And most smokers aren't interested in herbal vapes either from my experience.
The market is way too tiny (and too much of a gray area with the illegal plant) to see investment and innovation anywhere near the level you described, imo...
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
No a yes and a maybe.
No -
I didn't miss his point - he specifically said "professionally" and "pre-filled cartridges" - he's not talking about folks making concentrates at home. I also realize the concentrate market is a better path to pursue for a device - but remember, this thread is all about plant material vapes, not dab rigs - so that is why in my responses I stayed in the original problem space and my surprise about the lack of innovation. I know with text on a computer, tone doesn't shine through - but I don't say this as a jerk - it's purely objective, and my brain works in 1's and 0's. I'm all for folks making concentrates at home, etc and I by no means am saying concentrates are bad.... but I've used a lot of vape pens - and a lot of them are trash.
Yes -
I totally agree there are reputable companies out there. I buy concentrates from 710 labs - and you can instantly see, smell and taste a material difference in their product. I also know they make a cartridge system (never actually seen it available though) and I'm sure that's quite a stretch superior to the Stizzy I have as a backup - but I'd go on a limb and wager there are more bad/sloppy manufacturers than there are good ones. This doesn't just apply to the cannabis industry btw - think about the quality of most of the products you buy.... really good manufacturing facilities are very hard to build, and a lot of fortune 20 companies really struggle in this area. Add in the additional hurdles with it being the cannabis industry (lots of professionals are afraid of being associated to a Cannabis company - I can tell you, I can't see myself doing it) and as an employee (not a founder/principal) there isn't nearly as much $ in it - as opposed to going to work for a bio sciences firm, or a pharma company. So for them to attract and retain A players (at least for now) it must be a significant hurdle. Might want to check out glassdoor on some of these big named companies though - it could be lies, but people say some wild things about cleanliness, safety, etc. A family friends son went to work for one of the big named edible companies, one that's won awards for purity and what not - and the stories he shared, are why I turned to vaping.
Maybe -
You state the market is way too tiny, but what quantitative data do you have to support that? Have/do you create hardware/software products - and do you have any knowledge or experience with the costs involved with innovation/R&D? Again - not trying to be argumentative, it's a genuine question.
It sure seems like anytime there's a new/popular device it's instantly out of stock and backordered, S&B built a HUGE custom facility. Canopy Growth (parent company of S&B) saw their net income increase by 37% last year, and posted a $546 million CAD net income. Their stock is taking a beating (I may buy in soon) - but that's due to mismanagement, over expansion (they bought WAY too much WAY too fast without a plan in place to synergize the portfolio). They sold off a small company they had purchased for ~$117M to a German company, and that didn't even tickle their balance sheet. Now, I understand they are a conglomerate, and vaporizers are just a small part of their portfolio - but these are big boy numbers, and Canopy Growth is just one of many companies/conglomerates - and they all have deep pockets (I believe Canopy has a little under $2bn cash on hand based on their filings if memory serves me correctly) are numbers that could easily fund a $600 - 700K in R&D. I'll eat my shoe if Edwyn isn't personally making 7 figures with Cannabis Hardware - I'm sure he spends sic figures on R&D and could easily fund an effort to make something wild.
Big R&D budgets = poor innovation. The wildest stuff starts with moderate budgets - typically not garage budgets (but it happens - a la Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, etc) but nowadays bootstrapped or angel invested startups are all where the action is.... and they're doing WILD stuff, without a whole lot of $ - something these companies should be able to easily fund. I say this not as my opinion, but my first hand experience in the trenches. In the last 6 years alone, I have personally been involved with, or completely led the end-to-end development of 27 different hardware technology products ranging from $1K - $2.5 million dollars each (MSRP), but I've been doing this for a little over 16 years. Some of these appliances are designed to live deep underground in extreme conditions, underwater, in military vehicles, survive drops from 70 feet, and the list of tests/certifications we must pass from different independent testing facilities and govt agencies exceeds 50 - if we don't pass, we have to modify the design until it does. While I haven't seen it all, I've been involved in enough projects to know what it takes to build a good, reliable, performant hardware product that runs 24/7 in extreme conditions for at least 7 years.
All that rant said - integrating a small nebulizer into a vaporizer, and have two separate tubes/systems which come together right where your mouth touches the product in a Y joint/tube such that when you take a hit of vapor, it's mixed with room temp, or cooled nebulized H20 or another liquid of choice (potentially a canna infused) is not a big deal. A water piece (bong) in traditional setups add the smallest bit of hydration to the vapor, but a nebulizer could literally overpower (entirely) the heat and dryness of the plant vapor, and even make the pull "wet" should the user desire. This isn't sending humans to Mars - I could make this by myself in a weekend.... and if the TB that just arrived doesn't deliver cool/smooth enough vapor - i'll do just that. It's small steps like this, that you put into a roadmap - to get to that "HOLY F" product. Just the aforementioned would be more innovation than i've seen in this space in 20 years - hence my original claim - which I stand by - that the innovation in this space is absolutely pathetic.
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Sour Dream
Blue Dream enthusiast
I have a Vapbong, had a Flowerpot and have a Volcano Hybrid and like the Vapbong more than the other two
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
Really interesting @Sour Dream thanks for jumping in!
Do you mind sharing a little more about why you prefer the Vapbong?
Sneech
Well-Known Member
I came to this thread because I was interested in getting a new vape just like JGG, and after reading through it i'm now more intrigued about potential innovations in the vape market. Now i'm no professional, an RPI grad EE, with around 5 years head IT and QM experience in Airfield and Heliport LED Lighting. However you seem to know quite a bit about design and manufacturing Jolly GG, and suppose you did want to get a "garage" project going after you find less than ideal results with the TB. I'd love to bounce ideas around and collaborate on something truly exciting.
Sour Dream
Blue Dream enthusiast
My bad I missed this but I like the power it has, the fact that it combines a water pipe and vape, the aesthetics are a lot more approachable & appealing to me and others.
Smooth & high quality vapor
I only had the WE flowerpot head so I haven’t tried any of the ballers but I frequently have people over and most avoided the FP
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Sneech
Well-Known Member
Also, to add to the original vape discussion, your initial selection of vaporizers seems to focus only on electronic vaporizers. Is there a reason you have excluded all butane style vapes from this selection / discussion?
In my (limited) personal experience with the vapes I have used, I just find my butane vapes provide me with more terp / flavor than any electronic vape I've used, IMO.
In my (limited) personal experience with the vapes I have used, I just find my butane vapes provide me with more terp / flavor than any electronic vape I've used, IMO.
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
The TB has largely met all expectations - I’m surprised at how good it is. For fun though - I may buy another one and install a nipple valve in the bottom of the cup and build a detachable “support puck” with another battery in it (hot swappable) and a nebulizer which draws from the liquid in the cup. The vapor is cool enough as is from the device - so it would be less about reducing harshness and more about flavor experimentation. I’d love to be able to mix the taste of the vapor with flavored water - but would need to re-design the stem and keep the two systems (vapor and nebulization) completely separate for safety and device longevity purposes. The support puck wouldn’t be too difficult - but the new stem setup (to do it right) would be a challenge.
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
I’m a tech nerd, so the idea of using flames and such isn’t that interesting to/for me. Half the fun (for me) is the equipment. If I pull out a lighter - I’d just as soon as combust. When I don’t need cannabis for legitimate medical purposes I can go years without using any (NO turned nose at recreational users - I’m super supportive of legalization and recreational use) so the ease of use of electronics appeals to me.
If flavor was key, I’d just light a joint - as with the frequency (rather lack thereof) of my recreational consumption, I’d have no health concerns RE: the smoke.
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Sneech
Well-Known Member
Interesting personal opinion you have of flavor. I feel as though any type of combustion heavily effects (imo negatively) the flavor profile of the cannabis.
Now I differ in use than you as I need no pain relief, its def more of a leisurely activity for me in the evening after work, similar to some who wake up every day and make a cup of coffee. They don't need the coffee, maybe they say they do to function, but you get what I mean...
Where I did see similarities between us was in our hunt for best experience and flavor. When I go out with some extra $$ once in a blue moon and really want to treat myself I'll get an $80 eighth of my favorite top shelf bud. To me it would be a sin to roll that up and smoke it as a joint. Smoke is a flavor in itself, it's not present in the bud until combustion occurs, and to me, the smoke flavor overpowers every other flavor present in the bud oils. This is why I hate combusting in any of my vapes, once that happens, the whole vape is tainted with overpowering smoke flavor until I clean the whole thing. Same with Mezcal. Some people like it, I have it on occasion but I like my top shelf tequilas. I can taste the difference between them, with mezcal all I taste is smoke. It's very overpowering to me.
So since you think in 1s and 0s like me I would like to hear more about your TB experience so far. When I first saw it it honestly seemed like a silly novel gimmick to me. A standard electronic vape with a cup on top to promote hydration and discretion?? But the more I read on here about user experience and especially your above post, the more I'm looking back into it.
Honestly, when I first saw an image of it when I looked it up I thought they had done something special with the water in the cup, like it would take a portion of whatever you poured in there, and separate it for vapor filtration. It made sense with the price tag attached. When I found out it was just a vape with a cup on top, I laughed. But maybe I shouldn't be laughing?
Sneech
Well-Known Member
This is the way.
May I ask what your current favorite portable and desktop vape are?
I might be the least qualified person on this site to recommend a device. I have only a dozen or so. I stick to mostly portables, but I am waiting patiently for my chance to buy a kingwood Couchlog.
Anyway, I know it is cliche but all my vapes are for different purposes. My Milaana is for those unregulated chills. My Vapman is for the ritual. My various butane brick are for yard work. 510s are for watching TV.
But my "most reached for" are my Tinymight and Firewood7. Those are the top flavor kings and they are easy and reliable. Oh and the FW goes on more dog walks with me.
Shit Snacks
Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
Yeah what was mentioned are all great top-tier flavor vapes in my experience, TM and FW7 are my overall favorite, but the flavor that comes from my Milaana3 is pretty stunning... I'd add Cloud Connoisseur Halo and Atlas for my pure tasting desktops
JollyGreenGiant
Well-Known Member
@Sneech How you smoke (when combusting) means EVERYTHING. I am a cigar enthusiast, and while I don't smoke a lot (1-2 cigars a month on average) it took me many years to study and master the art of smoking such that I could pick out all the minute flavors, and learn how to puff on them strong enough get rich flavor, but soft enough to not overwhelm and taint the pallet. Just lighting a cigar, is somewhat of an art, and lighting it in the wrong manner, ruins the entire flavor profile for the rest of the smoke. Scorching or coating your palate will do the same as well, but if/when I smoke a joint correctly - it's a flavor bomb. Now, mind you - you need to smoke an entire, good sized joint to get high, as you can't take big hits, you don't hold the smoke in your lungs (very small/light puffs and a quick in and out of the lungs) but when done correctly, the flavors are incredibly robust, yet tantalizingly delicate. I haven't tried the Herborizer yet (I am actually doing the 20 min burn off break in at L8 as I type) so perhaps i'll change my opinion after that.
RE: the TB. I thought the exact same thing as you when I saw it, it looked like a complete joke, and I knew that plastic cup wouldn't be a premo feel. I wrote it off - but I kept seeing folks on this forum with some of the most respected and expensive desktop vapes in the game gushing about the TB. I also noticed some folks who had issues with theirs - still stuck with it based on its performance, and that for me is usually the strongest sign of a compelling product, so I figure WTF - planet of the vapes offers free returns if you use it and don't like it, so there was almost no risk.
So let's get down to business on the TB:
High's:
1. The actual build quality of the vape (sans cup) is quite good. Solid metal/aluminum, good weight/feel, the way the stem satisfyingly "clicks" in and out of the puck, the ceramic pots, the buttons (and how they feel when depressed), the type of LED's they used, etc - it doesn't feel at all like a toy, and if you pull the cup off and merely handed the vape to someone, they'd be hard pressed to find meaningful faults on quality alone. It isn't perfect, but few things in life are - but when you compare it to something like the Mighty+, which is touted to be a high-quality device, it makes the mighty look, and feel quite cheap. Aside from the Pax device, I haven't seen or held a handheld vaporizer that is built as well as the TB, and I live in the SF Bay area and have been to quite a few head shops and handled many handhelds. There may be better built handheld vapes out there - frankly I'm sure there are some esoteric handmade ones out there that are.... but I doubt there are many that can stand toe to toe with the TB.
2. The TB is thoughtfully designed as an integrated system, and that's incredibly important to me. Designing a good product is hard, but designing a good SYSTEM is several standard deviations harder. They went about solving this problem space with a "clean sheet" design - and that takes a lot of guts to attempt... let alone succeed at - and it's incredibly important to recognize, and support companies that take these risks - to foster innovation and require the rest of the industry to step up. Integrating a cup into their design was a huge risk, and still stands as the largest impediment to wider adoption, as many folks (you and I for example) didn't take it seriously due to the cup, but the cup IS a value add, it does make sense and it does add to, and increase the overall experience. Dump a Whiteclaw into that cup, take a sip to wet your whistle, take a hit from the vape, then chase it with another delicious sip and let the flavors dance on your palate - and TRY not to have a good time.... I dare you! It's also handy to use as a cup, and then you've always got your vape around the house with you, without it being some piece of "weed gear" you have to lug around - it just more naturally integrates into your life and blends into the scenery. It's like a well setup motorcycle - the machine becomes less of a standalone element, and more of a natural extension of you. It's hard to explain, but the cup is a meaningful value add, not merely because it re-hydrates your soft tissues after they're dried out with hot vapor, but it serves a valuable purpose completely unrelated to cannabis consumption. The 400ml cup it a good size, which will fit most beverages with ease - and not require an annoying number of trips to the water tap or refrigerator (for a beverage), but it's small enough to fit in the hand naturally and not feel like you're lugging around a water bottle. The ceramic pot system is also thoughtfully designed, easy to clean and efficient - and the upgraded aluminum grinder (must buy in my opinion) is a very well made piece of kit that will go toe to toe with my SCS, and it does exactly as it promises, shreds and deposits your materials into the pots beautifully without a mess, and does a great job of containing cannabis odor to maintain a high level of discretion. The detachable cleaning/tamping/stirring tool is well thought through, and given that it can be stored in the unit itself (bottom in one of the screw holes) it's always in hand and ready. I'd love to see them make a small brush as well, which fits into the bottom like the cleaning/tamping tool, but you can't hit a grand slam on your first attempt every time. The shape of the buttons (large indented button to fire up the oven and small raised button to change the power level) are intuitive and can be easily differentiated in an instant by touch alone, they "click" just right, and the controls are ridiculously simple. I could go on - but overall, the design is very well thought out as an integrated system to seamlessly fit into your day-to-day life, versus other products are stand alone "additions" to your day-to-day. If you run out of battery on any other handheld - you have a useless device... whereas the TB is still a fully functional cup you can continue to use. Sure, it may sound goofy, but it matters... the product always offers some semblance of value, and that can't be said about most electronic devices. It's also neat, in that non-cannabis friendly folks see it as merely a cup with a built-in straw, and don't notice it. I had it for multiple days before my significant other asked about it - and she merely asked because she was surprised, I wasn't using my UV sanitizing Larq water bottle I religiously drink from, and was curious why I switched to a cup. I had even been using it as a vaporizer next to her for several days, and she didn't realize it was a vape, or smell any indication of cannabis, which is a big deal, as I get lots of complaints about smell when I fire up the Mighty+, PAX, Peak Pro, etc.
3. It works.... really well. The vapor is never harsh, no matter how hard I hit it, and the device has never made me cough or feel uncomfortable. I can't say that about any other handheld I've used. In fact, for me, I find the vapor to be gentler than my volcano hybrid - and that's from a bag, and water cooled/humidified by the obsidian glass water piece designed for the Volcano, which adds enough humidity to the vapor, that the bags are wet inside with condensation after just one fill. Your mileage may vary, but for me - that's an incredible accomplishment. Now, I haven't even mentioned flavor - and that's where the TB shines most. It simply stomps. I think my log vapes (purple daze, etc) when well cleaned and used properly with the right stems are about as good - but the vapor is harsher from the log vapes, the log vapes are plug-in and take quite some time to get to temp, and they don't hit as hard, or create as much vapor as the TB. I am no expert and don't have as many vapes as some of the experts here, but from my limited experience, the performance of the unit leaves little to be desired. The warmup time is literally 2 seconds, and the battery life/performance is entirely acceptable to/for me. I often find myself not realizing I want to take another hit until I'm already sipping on whatever beverage I have in the cup, and the transition from sip to hit is literally hold the oven heating button as you're swallowing your sip, and then as fast as you swallow you've got the magic green lights saying it's go time. Again - it just seems to seamlessly fit in/around you, versus it being a side/stand alone item like all other vapes you really have to think about, or go grab from another room. It's always there, and (assuming you have charge in your battery) ready to go. With the pot system and the slick aluminum grinder there's very little to keep track of, or think about, and with 4 fully loaded pots and a fifth in the chamber, unless you're Snoop Dogg, you've got enough firepower to take multiple folks to outer space.
4. It's ultra-efficient with your material. Full extractions, and extraordinarily little material is needed to get immensely satisfying results. It is nearly as efficient as my log vapes, perhaps equally efficient - and those tend to have a reputation of being at the top of the hill, with regards to efficiency and material conservation.
5. It's super low maintenance. It needs little cleaning, and when it does need cleaning it's a piece of cake to take on. One of the lovely members here gave me a link to purchase a few hundred screens for the ceramic pots for a mere $5 shipped, such that when the screens get dirty - you don't even need to soak them, just pop them out and toss a new one in. It really doesn't get much easier than that.
RE: the TB. I thought the exact same thing as you when I saw it, it looked like a complete joke, and I knew that plastic cup wouldn't be a premo feel. I wrote it off - but I kept seeing folks on this forum with some of the most respected and expensive desktop vapes in the game gushing about the TB. I also noticed some folks who had issues with theirs - still stuck with it based on its performance, and that for me is usually the strongest sign of a compelling product, so I figure WTF - planet of the vapes offers free returns if you use it and don't like it, so there was almost no risk.
So let's get down to business on the TB:
High's:
1. The actual build quality of the vape (sans cup) is quite good. Solid metal/aluminum, good weight/feel, the way the stem satisfyingly "clicks" in and out of the puck, the ceramic pots, the buttons (and how they feel when depressed), the type of LED's they used, etc - it doesn't feel at all like a toy, and if you pull the cup off and merely handed the vape to someone, they'd be hard pressed to find meaningful faults on quality alone. It isn't perfect, but few things in life are - but when you compare it to something like the Mighty+, which is touted to be a high-quality device, it makes the mighty look, and feel quite cheap. Aside from the Pax device, I haven't seen or held a handheld vaporizer that is built as well as the TB, and I live in the SF Bay area and have been to quite a few head shops and handled many handhelds. There may be better built handheld vapes out there - frankly I'm sure there are some esoteric handmade ones out there that are.... but I doubt there are many that can stand toe to toe with the TB.
2. The TB is thoughtfully designed as an integrated system, and that's incredibly important to me. Designing a good product is hard, but designing a good SYSTEM is several standard deviations harder. They went about solving this problem space with a "clean sheet" design - and that takes a lot of guts to attempt... let alone succeed at - and it's incredibly important to recognize, and support companies that take these risks - to foster innovation and require the rest of the industry to step up. Integrating a cup into their design was a huge risk, and still stands as the largest impediment to wider adoption, as many folks (you and I for example) didn't take it seriously due to the cup, but the cup IS a value add, it does make sense and it does add to, and increase the overall experience. Dump a Whiteclaw into that cup, take a sip to wet your whistle, take a hit from the vape, then chase it with another delicious sip and let the flavors dance on your palate - and TRY not to have a good time.... I dare you! It's also handy to use as a cup, and then you've always got your vape around the house with you, without it being some piece of "weed gear" you have to lug around - it just more naturally integrates into your life and blends into the scenery. It's like a well setup motorcycle - the machine becomes less of a standalone element, and more of a natural extension of you. It's hard to explain, but the cup is a meaningful value add, not merely because it re-hydrates your soft tissues after they're dried out with hot vapor, but it serves a valuable purpose completely unrelated to cannabis consumption. The 400ml cup it a good size, which will fit most beverages with ease - and not require an annoying number of trips to the water tap or refrigerator (for a beverage), but it's small enough to fit in the hand naturally and not feel like you're lugging around a water bottle. The ceramic pot system is also thoughtfully designed, easy to clean and efficient - and the upgraded aluminum grinder (must buy in my opinion) is a very well made piece of kit that will go toe to toe with my SCS, and it does exactly as it promises, shreds and deposits your materials into the pots beautifully without a mess, and does a great job of containing cannabis odor to maintain a high level of discretion. The detachable cleaning/tamping/stirring tool is well thought through, and given that it can be stored in the unit itself (bottom in one of the screw holes) it's always in hand and ready. I'd love to see them make a small brush as well, which fits into the bottom like the cleaning/tamping tool, but you can't hit a grand slam on your first attempt every time. The shape of the buttons (large indented button to fire up the oven and small raised button to change the power level) are intuitive and can be easily differentiated in an instant by touch alone, they "click" just right, and the controls are ridiculously simple. I could go on - but overall, the design is very well thought out as an integrated system to seamlessly fit into your day-to-day life, versus other products are stand alone "additions" to your day-to-day. If you run out of battery on any other handheld - you have a useless device... whereas the TB is still a fully functional cup you can continue to use. Sure, it may sound goofy, but it matters... the product always offers some semblance of value, and that can't be said about most electronic devices. It's also neat, in that non-cannabis friendly folks see it as merely a cup with a built-in straw, and don't notice it. I had it for multiple days before my significant other asked about it - and she merely asked because she was surprised, I wasn't using my UV sanitizing Larq water bottle I religiously drink from, and was curious why I switched to a cup. I had even been using it as a vaporizer next to her for several days, and she didn't realize it was a vape, or smell any indication of cannabis, which is a big deal, as I get lots of complaints about smell when I fire up the Mighty+, PAX, Peak Pro, etc.
3. It works.... really well. The vapor is never harsh, no matter how hard I hit it, and the device has never made me cough or feel uncomfortable. I can't say that about any other handheld I've used. In fact, for me, I find the vapor to be gentler than my volcano hybrid - and that's from a bag, and water cooled/humidified by the obsidian glass water piece designed for the Volcano, which adds enough humidity to the vapor, that the bags are wet inside with condensation after just one fill. Your mileage may vary, but for me - that's an incredible accomplishment. Now, I haven't even mentioned flavor - and that's where the TB shines most. It simply stomps. I think my log vapes (purple daze, etc) when well cleaned and used properly with the right stems are about as good - but the vapor is harsher from the log vapes, the log vapes are plug-in and take quite some time to get to temp, and they don't hit as hard, or create as much vapor as the TB. I am no expert and don't have as many vapes as some of the experts here, but from my limited experience, the performance of the unit leaves little to be desired. The warmup time is literally 2 seconds, and the battery life/performance is entirely acceptable to/for me. I often find myself not realizing I want to take another hit until I'm already sipping on whatever beverage I have in the cup, and the transition from sip to hit is literally hold the oven heating button as you're swallowing your sip, and then as fast as you swallow you've got the magic green lights saying it's go time. Again - it just seems to seamlessly fit in/around you, versus it being a side/stand alone item like all other vapes you really have to think about, or go grab from another room. It's always there, and (assuming you have charge in your battery) ready to go. With the pot system and the slick aluminum grinder there's very little to keep track of, or think about, and with 4 fully loaded pots and a fifth in the chamber, unless you're Snoop Dogg, you've got enough firepower to take multiple folks to outer space.
4. It's ultra-efficient with your material. Full extractions, and extraordinarily little material is needed to get immensely satisfying results. It is nearly as efficient as my log vapes, perhaps equally efficient - and those tend to have a reputation of being at the top of the hill, with regards to efficiency and material conservation.
5. It's super low maintenance. It needs little cleaning, and when it does need cleaning it's a piece of cake to take on. One of the lovely members here gave me a link to purchase a few hundred screens for the ceramic pots for a mere $5 shipped, such that when the screens get dirty - you don't even need to soak them, just pop them out and toss a new one in. It really doesn't get much easier than that.