510 Halo-mesh

[Abysmal Vapor]

Decided to strart a separate thread about it,so i dont mix things up with the halo-log stuff.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to find the right attybase and settings for this project,but havent had nor the time,nor the money to dedicate further to it,but i guess if people are willing to experiment ,we can figure out together a concept .
@KeroZen I know you are into the project attys and it says in your signature you have projects on your own,but if you care to help on this one please be welcome )..
@supershredderdan I already pm'd with questions about what base will be durable enough to handle 35 wats for more than 2 minutes ?
I am trying also to figure out if fiddling with the settings will get me rid of the quick chip overheating of the wismec and the EVIC. Will a mechanical mod be a better choice ?
Cold resistance is set at 500 and it shoots up to 3 ohms when boosted on max.I have melted various 510 connections .Some due to bad connection with the heater others because they couldnt handle the current.
Heater cover will incorporate also the herb chamber. Proximity to the heater will boost energy efficiency and also add radiation and conduction to the convection. It would be a true hybrid heater . I have a vaporizer whip attachment which i use a a moutpiece but since i havent get it to vape properly yet i havent focus on this aspect.

Next things on the try list will be .
1. Project like connection
2.Ready made wider base
3.TuboX style connection.

 

[Goatbass]

Oh boy I've been thinking about this concept for quite some time. So glad you're on this!! Following now.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Oh boy I've been thinking about this concept for quite some time. So glad you're on this!! Following now.

Well for now i dont have high hopes at least with VW/tc mods.. and i dont know if mechanical are my thing. If anyone can recommend a protected mechanic mod that is cheap i might try it.It overheat the chip too fast. It goes up to 70 c only after a 30-40 seconds of operation.
I tried also larger ID base ,it gets rid of the base getting hot issue. Also tried tubox style ,it also presents overheating issues..
Can anyone tell why is this happening is it because of the high Ohm-age of the bulb ? Goes up to 4.XXX when in operation .
Tubo heaters also make chips hot but not as quickly as the bulb .
This project will most likely become just battery powered solution if the 510 doesnt work out in the end.

 

[Goatbass]

What about lower wattage bulbs?

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

What about lower wattage bulbs?

20w pins are too tiny and get red hot. 35w is what overheats my chip on rx300 which is quad battery mod before it can be sufficient temp for vaporization.
From what i read DNA series seem to overheat much less than the evic ones.. Maybe it is a higher end chip and not a mechanical mod that i need.. For now my finances are too limited to get any of the DNA series ,i can borrow mech mod from a friend to try it though.

 

[Goatbass]

You could also look into Yihi chips. They used to compete very hard with DNA mods back when I used to use ecigs. There are also a few cheap 75w DNA box mods you can look into.

 

[Megaton]

Mechanical mods have no protection, that is what makes them mechanical- no chip at all.

Some unregulated mods have a mosfet, which gives a little protection, but still no chip as such.

My dna mod has no overheating issues where my rx200s overheats very quickly, for what its worth.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Mechanical mods have no protection, that is what makes them mechanical- no chip at all.

Some unregulated mods have a mosfet, which gives a little protection, but still no chip as such.

My dna mod has no overheating issues where my rx200s overheats very quickly, for what its worth.

Does DNA mods have a cruise mode ?Can they run any software that has something similar to cruise mode ? I can imagine it is a bit unpleasant to hold the button for minute,cause heat up times are not as short as with exposed coils.

 

[Megaton]

Nope, unfortunately not, dna mods can't be flashed with third party software, and as ejuice vapers have little use for much more than a few seconds puffing at each go, that is reflected in the length of time before the mod automatically cuts off. The auto cutoff can be extended to about 20 secs i think, something like that.

 

[blokenoname]

Reading a bit into the whole regulated box mod thingie today and looking at my own (old iStick 100), I realize now, that most of these mods are just buck- and sometimes even buck/boost converters. With a max output of only about 10V, or rather a bit less then 9,6V (i.e. the input of at least 2 x 4,8V 18650 cells in series minus what the converter eats up) in connection with a load of a low enough given resistance, those nice little buggers can give you the shitload of potential current needed, to churn out all the hundreds of watts, the sub-ohm heart could possibly desire and then simply step down the voltage from there, to adjust to individual setups/ preferences. Nice.
Thing is, a given load requires more than ~9V and/or exceeds the specs for a given low enough resistance... you're pretty much f**ked, as I understand it, as like any buck it can not put out more voltage, than goes in, and buck/boost ones seeing more use in single cell mods, to make up for the cell/s. lacking. Resistance wise, my iStick gives specs from 0,05 ohm up to 5 ohm. Others giving specs up to 4ohm, 3,5ohm and whatnot.

12V/35W bulb calculates to a given resistance of 4,11 ohm (confirmed by your readings), drawing about three amps at max voltage. About 20W/2A is what, at a given resistance of about 4ohm, the mod could provide you with as a max, if a max output of about 9-10V is uniform across devices (just looked up some mods randomly at the web and those came all with a stated 9-10V max). Apart from the chip overheating, will 20W even be enough to make it work? From my experience with the 35W bulbs, vaping range only began within the last 1/3 of the dial (dimmer, as I had no VVPS at that time), meaning being very close to the full 35W and 12V already, though this might of course differ in regard to body and heater cover design.

But as I said, most of this stuff is quite new for me and so I might've got it wrong anyway.

Edit: So my own idea of using the 12V/40W/3,6ohm cartridge with a 501 base and mod was also flawed from the beginning, as it centered around the simple fact, that this cartridge would churn out the 7W I needed from it at about only 5V, drawing a bit over an amp and we had nice little cells that with ~4,8V came very close the required voltage, give or take... not taking into consideration that cells could be set into series to up the input voltage and the buck and buck/boost nature of the devices. That would indeed only have been true for an unregulated mod, as that is really just a housing for the battery with a simple switch, to open and close current and so can only give you the 4,8V the cell provides and not more (apart from dual cell ones with the cells set into series again, that is, but that would then require some kind of voltage/temp control again, which an unregulated mod can not provide )

Still, with only 7W required and getting that from applying a mere 5V at a given resistance of about 3,6ohm, the cartridge makes a much better candidate fir a portable 501 heater here. As my simple iStick 100 VV/VW seems up to cope with the relative high resistance (up to 5ohm), I guess I,ll just set it into a base and take a shot at it. Remains the problem if the 10 sec cutoff timer, but @Megaton already had an answer for that re cruise mode for some mods via firmware flash. But... as only the Stick's at hande here, well. Trying it anyway

 

[KeroZen]

Excepted their max voltage is 4.2V (not 4.8V) and they don't stay there for even a second as they sag immediately under load. Best to use their nominal 3.7V voltage for your computations.

Also it's pretty hard whatever the vape and heater to produce good vapor under 20W. Some cheap Chinese conduction vapes use less, say between 15 and 20 but people find them anemic usually.

For the upper limit, 50W is considered huge for a portable and will provide cloudage satisfying even the most hardcore water filtration users. The max we've seen was around 80W peak in some Boundless portables. But I might miss some other outliers.

 

[blokenoname]

Ja. Then 4,2V/nom. 3,7V it is. Wonder how I came up with the 4,8V anyway... well.

As for that 20W - 50W (and even 80W as an outlier) range for good vapor in known vapes... guess that's a bit too general there. Wattage alone doesn't say much about heat produced. As I understand it, that works only in relation to a given heater's mass, size, shape and build material, the heater arrangement used, insulation the body it gets set into provides, amount of herb to be roasted and so on.
So if a given heater is able to heat up the air, passing through a given heater arrangement, up to about 230°C at only 7W, then 7W is all you need, to produce satisfying clouds with that specific type of heater, living within that predefined set of parameters. 19-20ohm Reprap Cartridge or Ohmite resistor, both being roughly equal in mass, size, shape, being set into a few cm of ss tubing of roughly 10mm diameter, both then set into a piece of wood providing the appropriate insulation, will only give you about 7W with 12V applied, but still produce equal, if not bigger clouds at that 7W, than a lot of vapes, putting out maybe 30W, but also using different types of heaters within completely different parameters, that then also require completely different wattages to produce the aimed at heat.

Set the 20ohm resistor into a glass tube of 20 mm diameter instead, and all 7W will give you then, is a whiff of warm air, but no vapor to speak of. 7W being simply not enough then, to heat an air volume four times the size of what can pass the 10 mm steel tube.

On the other hand, a heater with the same properties, re mass, size, shape, material and so on, as the above mentioned Reprap cartridge or Ohmite resistor, but a much lower given resistance of say 3,6ohm, will give you the required 7W at a much lower voltage (but higher amperage), and still produce the aimed at 230°C, given all the other parameters still fit.

Question is just, what idiosyncrasies batteries and the mod add to the game.

 

[KeroZen]

I follow your reasoning, but you are facing the same design requirements all other vape makers face. You have to house the heater in something, the vape has a body etc. For sure there's variation in materials, some vapes will have more losses than others etc. But I gave you the figures as a ballpark value so you get an idea of what's out there.

Keep in mind all other manufacturers also try to maximize efficiency. I'm not doubting you can do better than some but don't assume your implementation will be fundamentally different either. Especially since with a halogen heater you start with a very inefficient source in the first place (large glass mass to heat, requires a heat-shield / heat-sink and reflector to bounce back the light, more mass robbing energy out of your system and/or adding inertia)

 

[blokenoname]

Yep. All understood and agreed

Except, I'm not assuming my approach to be fundamentally different to begin with and also do not use a halogen heater in what I've in mind here for my own project, but rather a ss/ceramic heater cartridge, as I thought I made clear, with maybe more compatible specs for running from a 510 mod, than the 12V/35W halogen bulb, AbysmalVapor has in mind for his 510 Halo Mesh project here and seeing his overheating problem with the chip also questioning in my first post, if the mod he uses can even provide the needed voltage in the first place, to drive that bulb at a full 35W if need be (which I think he will need, due to a holo heater's immanent inefficiency you already pointed out) and if it (the mod) can also deal with a given load resistance as high as the ~4ohm of the 35W bulb, as most contemporary mods are meant for a sub-ohm e-cig world.

What I'll personally end up with, is probably just a funny looking wooden miniature log body with the typical ~10 mm ss heating tube holding the 510 base with the cartride heater, that then can be threaded onto a given suitable 510 mod and maybe also onto a fitting wooden base, that can be powered by a 5V/1.xA DC power supply. In other words, a more primitive and probably not so instant variation on an iHeat
But this is also, at least for the moment, all just more of an after thought or side project to my actual log project, more or less triggered by the accidentally discovery, that one of the cartridge heaters I thought of no use for the log project itself, due to being highly over-powered and able to turn your log into ash, if driven to its fully 40W output at 12W, could still provide the aimed for output and heat of about 7W, when driven by just 5V, istead of 12V.

As my knowledge of 510 tech was and still is rudimentary only, I messaged @Abysmal Vapor, very loosely describing my idea and seeking more info and details re box mods, where he then pointed out his halo mesh project, which crossed paths with my own at least in some points, as a result of which, this thread got created then. So when stating some of my assumptions about the internal workings of mods here, this also serves the purpose to check my grasp on what I've learned so far about these things and getting errors pointed out, in my line of thinking, by more knowledgeable folks here

 

[KeroZen]

Oh my bad, I didn't realize you hijacked the halo-mesh thread! krkrkrkrk

 

[blokenoname]

 

[blokenoname]

Well... so far, so good. Readings confirm the math. Cartridge heats up. Remains to be seen, how long it takes to reach usable temps and if base, mod and cells can cope and how hot anything gets. Need to do a body first though, as working with the naked cartridge leads nowhere. Probably also will have to lengthen the leads, as heat conducting down to base and mod will pose a problem, depending how long you've to fire this thing, I guess.

 

[blokenoname]

Too late, to edit the last post, so...

I freely admit, that I nearly can't friggin' believe it myself, Ladies & Gents, but this sh*t really worked at first try right out of the box, as physics advertised and I just had me two nice little seshs with it

Proving @KeroZen s point re wattage in portables, I didn't even bother with the 7W at 5V for long, but ran it at the full 25W output at 10V, the iStick can provide to the 3,6 ohm load, as time is of essence here and lots of heat going into the mass striving towards thermal equilibrium at first, so that you'll need a lot more power from the heater, when you want to get a satisfying hit while this thermal equilibrium between heater and mass isn't established yet.
So I pulsed it through 4 - 5 ten second cycles for heat-up (maybe even one or two more from stone cold and for a second session back to back you need less obviously, as body and heater are still hot, but I'll get some more accurate readings on that tomorrow) and then inserted one of my log stems with an ss tip and started pulsing again, while taking the first draw. First and second hit weren't spectacular, but producing visible vapor instantly, that got thicker and more satisfying with each hit, until the load was done a minute later or so. AVB was a lighter brown than from my logs, some specs of green left, but pretty good extraction nevertheless (I'll see, that I do a short vid tomorrow, so that you can see for yourself).
Even as is (and there is quite some room for improvement), I'd say, this nifty little thingie here doesn't need to fear comparison with some mid price level session type convection portables and maybe even some of the more expensive ones, which is promising

Body I used, is really really make shift, cobbled together, from what I had lying around, just to provide the ss heater cover with a minimum of insulation. Fitted a 14/18 m/f GonG adapter onto a base from my Kanger Subtank Mini with a piece of silicone, the Kanger base holding the little base Kanger provided for your DIY coils, which holds the cartridge heater now, and on top of that, I just set one of my 9 mm ss log heater covers with a debris screen, into which the tip gets inserted. Kanger base even providing an adjustable air intake here. 14 mm joint makes for easy use with glass, though I doubt, that it can really milk a bong as it is, given the short time frame of one or two sessions in a row, which isn't enough for the mass becoming fully heat saturated, so that the heater could unfold its full potential.
Eventually, I like to set base and core into a slender wooden body with a narrow bore and see, how it performs there.

The iStick mod itself was quite warm to the touch after 2nd sesh, but far from hot, the cells themselves being much cooler. So this is just heat conducting down from the base and getting swiftly dissipated to the air by the aluminum. If you don't do 4/5 sessions in a roe, well...

Hope @Abysmal Vapor you can use some of my results and findings here for your own, and take it from there. For further development of mine (apart from the vid), I'll probably make a new thread in DIY, when I find the time.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@blokenoname Nice develoment,i just came back from a short vacation ).. Before i left i was doing something similar but with a classic logvape resistor . I didnt have time to test it a lot ,but i will get to it . I noticed that i got again the device too hot message. Maybe i will try a cartrigdge heater with the concept,i am waiting for some to come for weeks..
I just came across this atomizer. It can be easily modified into a 510 version of Herb Iron vape or the Hakko vape.
The Alpinetop eMATCH Ceramic Lighter is for cut tobacco lovers. eMATCH is compatible with almost all vaping devices with 510 thread. You will gain best flavor at 30 to 50W in power. The detachable design makes eMATCH easy to disassemble. The glass mouthpiece provides the purest flavor. The specially-designed stirring rod allows for stirring your material while you're on TO-GO Tank Mode too. With a ceramic heated rod, eMATCH offers a clean taste and none of the harmful health effects of vaping in lighter fuel, hemp material or other gasses.

Size: 20 x 50.8mm
Connection: 510 thread
Wattage Range: 30 - 50W
Coil Resistance: 0.3ohm
Color: Black

• The first electronic ceramic lighter
• High compatibility with most 510-thread MODs
• Ceramic heated rod with no harmful health effects
• Glass mouthpiece for purest flavor easy cleaning
• Specially-designed rod allows for easy stirring

• 1 x eMATCH
• 3 x Extra O Rings
• 1 x Water Pipe Adaptor
• 1 x Spare Quartz Glass Chamber


It would probably even work if you load directly into the drip tip ) or replace it with a small stem .

Thank you very much for making me look into the specs of my mods. Yes it is probably not good to run a halogen bulb.
Thread Type: 510 spring loaded thread
Cell type: High-rate 18650 cell
Cell type: (discharge current should be above 25A)
Output Mode: VW/TC-Ni/TC-Ti/TC-SS/TCR Mode
Output Wattage: 1-300W
Resistance Range: 0.05-1.5ohm for TC modes
Resistance Range: 0.1-3.5ohm for VW mode
Temperature Range: 100-315°C/200-600°F (TC modes)
Maximum Charging Current: 1.5A
Maximum Output Current: 50A

 

[blokenoname]

Hi

Hope you've enjoyed your vacation From what I could find via google, your mod there has a max voltage output of 9V and can cope with a max resistance of up to 3,5 ohm. Chosen heater has to comply to these specs, to not make your mod cower in fear.

There is another Reprap cartridge coming with 12V/50W, which would make it about 2,88 ohm. And though my own portable here works reasonable well, to make it truly instant, I'll probably experiment with a DIY mesh heater next.

Edit: just saw your edit

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Hi

Hope you've enjoyed your vacation From what I could find via google, your mod there has a max voltage output of 9V and can cope with a max resistance of up to 3,5 ohm. Chosen heater has to comply to these specs, to not make your mod cower in fear.

There is another Reprap cartridge coming with 12V/50W, which would make it about 2,88 ohm. And though my own portable here works reasonable well, to make it truly instant, I'll probably experiment with a DIY mesh heater next.

Edit: just saw your edit

) I guess i would need a 5 ohm capable mod to make it work with the halo-mesh. If anyone knows any please share .. cheap is better,3rd world here..
Those 510 ematch look cool but might end up a costly experiment.. They are like 20$ delivered.. hopefully if doesnt work at least the base can be used for other stuff.
Those mesh heaters look pretty interesting ,i wonder why anyone havent started a thread about it already. There is an awesome video in the Lil Bud thread which shows that it is not a rocket science to make one .
Checkout those 3.7v low voltage ceramic heaters. I think those are used in the Fury/fenix. This model has a bottom heatshield which is nice for a 510 build.

Here is the model without leads. They are sold as spares to a ViviNova wax atomizer.

 

[blokenoname]

@Abysmal Vapor
Well, if this eMATCH thingie works and puts out clouds like in that vid in real life too... and goes for just €20, I'd just say: shut up and take me money
But usually, at this low a price tag, you'll just get what you paid for, and that is mostly just .... well , as the poor reviews of a bunch of those 510 dry herb atomizers you can get at Amazon or Ebay and that come equally cheap prove well enough.
This one admittedly looking better, as most of the others I came across so far. But doing a quick search, there is the availability problem again, if you want your ematch somewhen before Christmas 2021 to arrive
Otherwise, I might just give it a try despite all that

Same is true for this really interesting and promising looking heaters sadly,
I expect. Will do a more extensive search on them tomorrow.

As for the mesh heaters, and just reverse engineering on a glance here, given the fact, that there are already known working shapes (wave/spiral), bases used and methods of fastening, this will probably boil down to how large to cut your mesh for yet to be determined ideal resistance, complying to a mod's max resistance specs while still being able to produce enough wattage to get results. And then solving the little nasties creeping up, like a glowing mesh and other sh*t, you had probably never thought of, which will probably take up most of the time. But with bases and mesh readily available, for an instant portable a light weight, low resistance/high wattage mesh heater seems clearly preferable to the in comparison heavy weight cartridges and bulbs, as all we'll ever probably make from them, is a hotter running quasi session portable that comes with the annoyance of continuously having to pulse a given mod (apart from having one you can flash the firmware on) through heat-up and whole sessions, as at their comparatively high resistance, a given mod simply can't churn out enough wattage at a mere 9-10V, too heat up even their own mass fast enough to make them instant.

iStick 100 can cope with 5 ohm, if you still can get one. But has primitive software only (VV/VW only), no fw flash, which means pulsing.

Edit: which resistor are you using then? I mean, any wire wound, enamel coated resistor of a low enough resistance and corresponding wattage rating should do, if you can find one. The classic 20 ohm resistor is out of the question. IStick would just say 'no atomizer'.

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

@blokenoname Although it probably can work as a conduction vaporizer, the e-match is a combustion device. Thats why i suggested loading into a stem.
The Wismec RX300 seems to be able to run almost everything.. no matter that it is limited 3.5 ohms.. but chip overheating is present in those cases.
Maybe i will just take a look into that OKR chip and see whatcan it offer.
I just took a look in the Vaporesso brand.Some can run Actric Fox which can get you rid of the constact pulsing and support 5 ohm.

 

[blokenoname]

@blokenoname Although it probably can work as a conduction vaporizer, the e-match is a combustion device. Thats why i suggested loading into a stem.
The Wismec RX300 seems to be able to run almost everything.. no matter that it is limited 3.5 ohms.. but chip overheating is present in those cases.
Maybe i will just take a look into that OKR chip and see whatcan it offer.
I just took a look in the Vaporesso brand.Some can run Actric Fox which can get you rid of the constact pulsing and support 5 ohm.

Well, cynical bastard that I am, I’d assume the literal e-match function of this 510 vape just being the same type of lame ‘camouflage’, as the ‘aroma therapy’ function of all the others As surface temps of the heater are much higher than the heated air it produces, lighting a fag with an exposed heater is no problem at all. So why not make this fact a ‘function’ then, for making sales easier? Good idea all in all. Already got that with loading into the driptip for convection effects. Might be a good vape even at this low price tag, but as I said, would have to get one first, before coming to a final conclusion about that.

Why looking for a different mod, when all you need to do is to set in a heater, that complies to its specs? Way to go here is just a heater with more wattage rather than less, at the same voltage applied. Going for lower wattage will give you higher resistance instead and then you'll end up with glowing leads -like with the 20W bulb- or/and an overheating chip, if it doesn’t simply ignore the load when out of specs, like my iStick.

Just set in a 12V/50W bulb with a nice and compatible 2,88 ohm instead Doesn’t get less hot at the same voltage, than the 36W and 20W one. Your mod could give it about 28W then at a max 9V, which might or might no be enough for making it work, but should solve the overheating problem. If it persists despite, there are probably other idiosyncrasies to be taken into account, that might be software related.

Can you provide a link to the vid you mentioned re mesh heaters being no rocket science? Just started to plow through the thread, but as it has 70+ pages now in the Lil’ Bud thread… well

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=513&v=EU7DRuHARvU
Here is mesh heater coil video.
50w still brings up the heating issue, maybe a 75w one ?