18650 Battery Safety

[sickmanfraud]

I have an 18650 Question. I currently have a mod (cuboid 200) with 3 Sony VTC5A cells. The cells went into the mod and the charger as a trio from the first (over)Charge.

My atomizer needs to be sent back for repair. If I use the 3 Sony cells individually or in a pair while waiting for my mod to return would these 3 batteries be unusable as a trio again?

 

[macbill]

Exploding vape pen caused Florida man’s death, autopsy says

In what is believed to be one of the first deaths from an e-cigarette explosion, a 38-year-old man in Florida was killed when his vape pen exploded, sending projectiles into his head and causing a small fire in his house.

According to a report from the U.S. Fire Administration, which is part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, there were at least 195 incidents in which an electronic cigarette exploded or caught fire from 2009 through 2016, resulting in 133 injuries, 38 of which were severe. But there were no recorded deaths in the study's period.

 

[invertedisdead]

Exploding vape pen caused Florida man’s death, autopsy says

In what is believed to be one of the first deaths from an e-cigarette explosion, a 38-year-old man in Florida was killed when his vape pen exploded, sending projectiles into his head and causing a small fire in his house.

According to a report from the U.S. Fire Administration, which is part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, there were at least 195 incidents in which an electronic cigarette exploded or caught fire from 2009 through 2016, resulting in 133 injuries, 38 of which were severe. But there were no recorded deaths in the study's period.

This is pretty much how everyone has injured themselves with an Ecig, improper usage of MECHANICAL mods. Mechanical mods are UNREGULATED and require proper understanding of ohms law to use safely. Under no circumstances should they be used by a beginner. Fortunately for us, mechanical mods are extremely uncommon in this industry.

Most electronic box mods have multiple safety features incorporated to (hopefully) prevent stuff like this. These manufacturers actually don't want their devices exploding as that's horrible for the brands reputation.

Very disheartening to hear though. Guys, embrace the safety features. People like these mech mods cause they are cool. We find danger cool. But there's nothing cool about your ecig turning into a hand grenade.

Stay safe out there.

 

[cybrguy]

And just because it never hurts to be reminded, here is another reminder...

 

[PPN]

Hi, I get 2 brand news authentic Sony VTC6, can I ask what they are designed for (in a mod with short high power demand or in a flower vape for a better autonomy)?

Thanks in advance!

 

[KeroZen]

They are equivalent to the LG HG2 and Samsung 30Q. Perhaps more oomph like Sony cells tend to have usually, but some testers reported that they have a shorter advertised lifespan compared to the two others in counter-part (i.e. capacity supposedly drops faster over time)

Never used them so far but they sure look like great cells and have good reviews. Should be good for most of our usual applications, but maybe less for the Tubo and other very high power vapes, as their real CDR is closer to 18A than the advertised 20A.

 

[PPN]

Thanks @KeroZen, in definite it's not a good cell to use in my Evic mini especially paired with the Quartz Quest (it needs 40-55W!) and maybe with the Iheat also (I use mine at 30w for now). But might be good enough for every session portable vape or in my mods paired with attys using a 8-25w power range.

But I'm thinking it might be a bad choice to use them with my Hercule white rod which is a 7.4v device with a resistance +2ohm, so, basically, it draws 12-13v if used at 20-21w... I'm not good with electricity mathematic but I'm under the impression the VTC4s I actually use in a Movkin disguiser mod to drive my Hercule is the best choice... at least better than VTC6, LG HE2 and Samsung25R... the only others decent batteries I own (with a lot of lesser quality ones).

Thanks again to share your knowledge and sorry to ask you so much!

 

[KeroZen]

You're welcome my friend! These little devices are clearly more involved than the simple batteries we had when we grew up, that's for sure!

You should be able to use it in the iHeat at 30W. I use my 30Q's and HG2's at the same power setting in this device and get a rather nice battery life (usually about 4 bowls)

If your Hercule is 7.4V then it has two cells in series. In which case the current draw is quite often less (i.e you need half the amps at 7.4V to achieve the same power you get at 3.7V) This is one of the advantages of using cells in series, it can be less taxing for them (or well alternatively it could allow you to produce even more Watts like the 2-3 cells e-cig mods do, up to 200W and more)

But now that I re-read your post I'm not sure to understand and my answer is probably completely off!

 

[KeroZen]

All Solid-State Batteries / Tokyo Institute of Technology

 

[cybrguy]

The future cometh. Solid state batteries look kinda cool. A safer tech will change everything, tho they may end up more pricey having more tech. I particularly like the lower charging time...

 

[KeroZen]

Say no to drugs!

But always store your 18650's in their plastic packs!

 

[t-dub]

A small group of students and scientists at a university in Japan have developed a solid-state lithium-ion battery. Because the electrolytes are dry ingredients, and not flammable liquid ones, it will not be prone to fire or leakage and will be able to store more energy and withstand higher charge and discharge rates safely. They are figuring out how to transition to production as I type this. The revolution is coming.

 

[cybrguy]

Can't come too soon. Lithium as a source of spontaneous fire events is a serious problem that the airline industry may be forced to address, and if there is no better option than flammable lithium the solutions WILL be incredibly disruptive. Hopefully this tech develops quickly...

 

[KeroZen]

@t-dub : probably the same team that in the video I posted 3 slots above your post.

But unfortunately I've heard countless times about so called battery revolutions and it never materialized so far. Everytime they fail to transition from research to production. It's a bit like Fusion Power, it has a bright future.... and always will!

 

[Hippie Dickie]

so called battery revolutions and it never materialized so far

i was (am) pretty impressed with the LiFePO4 cells from A123Systems: 70 Amps (120 Amp burst), 15 minute recharge, adequate capacity at ~ 2/3 of the best capacity li-ion. i guess Musk/Tesla has moved on from this chemistry.

 

[KeroZen]

For sure. But the ones you use are super bulky. The only LiFe 18650's I found were old stock and apparently pretty disappointing.

Like this one (1500mAh for only 5A CDR) >> https://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo...rate-4-32wh-ul-listed-un38-3-passed-ndgr.aspx

But since you made me want to look again, I found this one on radio-spares which is much more interesting (1200mAh but this time up to 20C, so 24A but is that peak or CDR who knows?) >> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/speciality-size-rechargeable-batteries/8183005/

EDIT: don't know why they say 20C in the description, the datasheet says it's only a meager 4.5A CDR, completely useless!

Or maybe salvaging cells from a pack like this that can deliver 30A CDR? >> https://www.conrad.com/ce/en/produc...0CableLiFePO4EmmerichLiFePO4-Pack96-V1100-mAh

But apparently it's nearly impossible to get over 1500mAh in 18650 form. I don't think you can get both 1500mAh and 30A CDR at the same time. Contrast that to Li-Ions like the LG HB6 for instance (true 1500mAh 30A) or the latest cell from Samsung, the 20S (found also in the black VapCell rewrap which tested amazingly good)

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...g-18650-right-now-beats-hb6-and-vtc6a.864225/

I know it's expected, energy density is lower with that chemistry. But in 18650 form that would mean pretty short run times. You'd answer that they charge pretty fast in return, and that would be a valid point...

EDIT2: I took the plunge and ordered a few of the salvaged original A123 18650 on fasttech, we'll see in practice how well they work >> https://www.fasttech.com/product/1208601-a123-systems-18650-lifepo4-1200mah-high-discharge

 

[t-dub]

@t-dub : probably the same team that in the video I posted 3 slots above your post.

Ugggh . . . you are correct, sorry about that. I guess I just forgot where I saw it because I googled it and read some articles as well . . .

 

[KeroZen]

Oh don't be sorry, I was just stating we were probably talking about the same research team (as they are not the only ones working on solid state batteries)

 

[t-dub]

(as they are not the only ones working on solid state batteries)

Yes that is true, the articles I found on google represented several teams approaching the same goal from different angles.

 

[KeroZen]

Researchers create safer lithium-ion batteries that harden on impact
The simple addition of silica could help eliminate fire hazards.

>> https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/22...afer-lithium-ion-batteries-that-harden-on-im/

 

[looney2nz]

For sure. But the ones you use are super bulky. The only LiFe 18650's I found were old stock and apparently pretty disappointing.

Like this one (1500mAh for only 5A CDR) >> https://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo...rate-4-32wh-ul-listed-un38-3-passed-ndgr.aspx

But since you made me want to look again, I found this one on radio-spares which is much more interesting (1200mAh but this time up to 20C, so 24A but is that peak or CDR who knows?) >> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/speciality-size-rechargeable-batteries/8183005/

EDIT: don't know why they say 20C in the description, the datasheet says it's only a meager 4.5A CDR, completely useless!

Or maybe salvaging cells from a pack like this that can deliver 30A CDR? >> https://www.conrad.com/ce/en/produc...0CableLiFePO4EmmerichLiFePO4-Pack96-V1100-mAh

But apparently it's nearly impossible to get over 1500mAh in 18650 form. I don't think you can get both 1500mAh and 30A CDR at the same time. Contrast that to Li-Ions like the LG HB6 for instance (true 1500mAh 30A) or the latest cell from Samsung, the 20S (found also in the black VapCell rewrap which tested amazingly good)

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...g-18650-right-now-beats-hb6-and-vtc6a.864225/

I know it's expected, energy density is lower with that chemistry. But in 18650 form that would mean pretty short run times. You'd answer that they charge pretty fast in return, and that would be a valid point...

EDIT2: I took the plunge and ordered a few of the salvaged original A123 18650 on fasttech, we'll see in practice how well they work >> https://www.fasttech.com/product/1208601-a123-systems-18650-lifepo4-1200mah-high-discharge

@KeroZen

been waiting to see what happened with your fasttech A123 Systems LiFePo experiment.

I don't abuse these cells, but if I see another vape battery explosion video, it'll be way too damned soon.

If these would work in a 2 or 3 cell configuration, that might not be so bad for the tradeoff, no?

 

[KeroZen]

They are still in transit on the slowboat from China mate! Will keep you informed when they arrive.

My initial plan is to use them with the high power heater inside the Nomad, since it's unregulated and doesn't care about min/max voltages and cutoffs etc. If my computations are correct, it's possible that those cells would make the high power heater behave like the low power one (which happens to be the one I enjoy the most) albeit maybe a tad cooler. We'll see whether it's practical or if it requires too much trigger time to produce vapor.

I could test them in the Milaana but it might be completely anemic with them. We'll see too.

To take full advantage of these cells we'd have to build a special heater around them taking into account their much lower operational voltage.

 

[looney2nz]

yeah, just a WAG I'd say it's probably a good 20% drop in efficiency due to the lower voltage?

 

[KeroZen]

We'll see. They supposedly sag less than our usual cells so maybe it's not that bad. But yeah at max voltage they are at the mid discharge point of most standard Li-Ions, so that could be even more than 20% less power on unregulated devices.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

i thought i had a datasheet for the 18650, but i guess i didn't save it, but i would swear that the characteristics were identical to the 26650, except less capacity of course. i.e. 70A discharge rate and voltage has an extremely sharp knee at the end of the discharge - plus the 1000x recharges before losing 20% capacity.

i got some 18650 from China several years ago, but i decided they weren't genuine - can't remember why i decided that. i think i posted that in a thread somewhere.