Discontinued ThermoVape

[PhreedomPhries]

I think your logic is a bit off. Yes, the bowl temperature is close to 400 for proper vaporization. But the heater is FAR HOTTER than that. It's 'glowing hot'. It heats the air you draw in. You draw enough of that air to get it to work (more volume for cooler heater) but the heater is always much hotter. Exactly how hot is not important as it only effects the rate not temperature of the load.

Temperature in such systems is not linear, usually following a square curve once into the radiation region (where the core runs), you don't want to raise the voltage hoping for 'bigger clouds', that's not how it works. As I just said elsewhere, the key issue is probably the Internal Resistance of the supply. This I think is what drives selection of a unit, not something you get off the nameplate. T1 is originally designed to work off batteries, TV specifies a supply that mimics that, I suggest you stick with it unless you know a lot more about this stuff than I do?

Good luck, and enjoy your unit. IMO it's well designed to work as delivered.

OF

OF, I disagree as to the utility of a VV power supply. Being able to dial in the voltage would amount to being able to tell the TV which portion of the battery curve to mimic. That is not without its uses. Clearly, the intensity of the voltage is proportional to the intensity of the heat that the core produces. Hence, when the cells are nearing their depletion, the result is less heat. Some people prefer more mild vapor, some prefer more robust. No real mystery here. Without a person having to modulate their drawing style to affect that rate of infrared transfer of heat, they can instead impress the same result by modulating the voltage. It is not really that different of a concept from any other VV device, IMO. I think a VV power supply for the TV would prove what we're saying to be the case. The proof is in the puddin'.

 

[jambandphan03]

Well, still no glass adapters showing up, and I'm getting ready to head out for the afternoon in the next hour, so I guess, I'll check back later tonight. A bit of a tease telling us they would be listed in time for the 4th promotion!! I know you guys are doing your best, I'm not trying to break any balls here, just a little deflated. I am sure there is some good reason for the delay, and it will be worth the wait...


...btw...I hope everyone has a safe and happy 4th, what ever you do today.

 

[Nick Brand]

I think your logic is a bit off. Yes, the bowl temperature is close to 400 for proper vaporization. But the heater is FAR HOTTER than that. It's 'glowing hot'. It heats the air you draw in. You draw enough of that air to get it to work (more volume for cooler heater) but the heater is always much hotter. Exactly how hot is not important as it only effects the rate not temperature of the load.

Temperature in such systems is not linear, usually following a square curve once into the radiation region (where the core runs), you don't want to raise the voltage hoping for 'bigger clouds', that's not how it works. As I just said elsewhere, the key issue is probably the Internal Resistance of the supply. This I think is what drives selection of a unit, not something you get off the nameplate. T1 is originally designed to work off batteries, TV specifies a supply that mimics that, I suggest you stick with it unless you know a lot more about this stuff than I do?

Good luck, and enjoy your unit. IMO it's well designed to work as delivered.

OF

Thanks for the reply OF. Mucho respect for all you've done here. Like, wow.

Yup, knew the difference between the actual core and temp delivered, that's why I wrote T1's "temp delivered to the chamber" in my question. TV's engineering may have a ratio guide somewhere that graphs out voltage/core temp/chamber temp, for each model.

Built many (regulated) power supplies for primarily audio applications. All I'd need is the requirement specs to build one for this. But if TV's already thinking about something variable in the future for it it would save this hillbilly some shed time...

Being able to precisely and repeatably hit a rather exact temperature (i.e., + 5 degrees or better), say in order to get thc (lower evap temp) with minimal cbds (higher evap temp), would really bump up this device's clinical applicability, in addition to blowing big clouds. Yes, I know it was initially designed to be the bees knees in portability, but why not see just how scaleable this sweet baby is (kudos to the designer's combo of minimalistic beauty, function, and durability).

take care

 

[Nick Brand]

Well, still no glass adapters showing up, and I'm getting ready to head out for the afternoon in the next hour, so I guess, I'll check back later tonight. A bit of a tease telling us they would be listed in time for the 4th promotion!! I know you guys are doing your best, I'm not trying to break any balls here, just a little deflated. I am sure there is some good reason for the delay, and it will be worth the wait...

I think you've got until 11:59pm PST july 5th.

 

[grimeade]

Just be aware, the Evo pulls a lot more juice than the Dart/Rev and puts out way more heat. If you try to use it on your ecig mod, there is the chance your mod won't handle it for long. Go read through the Evo thread if you want more details on that...
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/thermovape-evolution.5685/ Just giving you a heads up.

oh snap, thanks for the heads up i didnt even think about that. ill just stick with my whispr for flowers then

do you think that getting the LV would be better?

what voltage are you setting your dart at for optimal clouds?

i keep it at 6.0 (which is the highest it can go), depending on how im drawing and how long i let it pre heat for i can get small to huge clouds. if i let it heat for about 5 seconds and draw very slow its the biggest cloud.

 

[OF]

OF, I disagree as to the utility of a VV power supply. Being able to dial in the voltage would amount to being able to tell the TV which portion of the battery curve to mimic. That is not without its uses. Clearly, the intensity of the voltage is proportional to the intensity of the heat that the core produces. Hence, when the cells are nearing their depletion, the result is less heat. Some people prefer more mild vapor, some prefer more robust. No real mystery here. Without a person having to modulate their drawing style to affect that rate of infrared transfer of heat, they can instead impress the same result by modulating the voltage. It is not really that different of a concept from any other VV device, IMO. I think a VV power supply for the TV would prove what we're saying to be the case. The proof is in the puddin'.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough. I see no advantage to variable over (the correct) fixed voltage. You're surely not suggesting folks might want to adjust this 'on the fly'? The time constant is way too long and you're already automatically using flow rate, all you'd probably do is shift that too? Sure, there's an optimum setting for a VV supply, but I bet it's just about what the factory is using? More to the point, take it off a T1 and shift to a SV Evolution say and you're SOL unless you 'retune' which the factory supply does automatically (at least in theory). I'm as much concerned with 'treating the heat core right' as anything else I guess.

You can also run it on flashlight batteries, but I'm not recommending that either.

I disagree, VV does not work the same with convection vapes as conduction. Within reason, any heat source will fire T1. While the core heat is proportional to voltage, it is not liner in that which was the original term?

If they were inclined to, I'm sure TV can recommend a voltage for you. My advice remains 'use what the maker specifies'. No big deal, really. Free advice is worth the price, you know.

OF

 

[OF]

Thanks for the reply OF.

Built many (regulated) power supplies for primarily audio applications. All I'd need is the requirement specs to build one for this. But if TV's already thinking about something variable in the future for it it would save this hillbilly some shed time...

Being able to precisely and repeatably hit a rather exact temperature (i.e., + 5 degrees or better), say in order to get thc (lower evap temp) with minimal cbds (higher evap temp), would really bump up this device's clinical applicability, in addition to blowing big clouds.

You're welcome, thanks for the kind words.

I doubt they have such graphs, they didn't show me when I asked, but they might not want to for a number of reasons I guess. FWIW, I don't think they're working on a variable supply, if anything just the opposite, they might want a regulated one? I too have spent a lot of times fighting such stuff and agree it's not a simple issue by any means. While VV is an obvious feature on conduction vapes (say Omicron carts), changing the heater temperature doesn't do more than changing the output of your home heater. There the duty cycle shifts so the living room stays at 72. In a conduction vape you'd modulate the flow (less volume of warmer air) to do this. In such a system to magically hit the mark each time, you need to control both temperature and flow rate, right?

Another option is open to you, consider the HA. Here the (much more massive) core is at vaping temperature. Huge difference. Now flow doesn't matter. More flow just transfers more heat (same temperature) so volume of vapor (not temperature) goes up. Within reason you can suck (or blow bags) as fast as you wish. And they do it on 50 Watts, not unreasonable for a portable IMO. Like in TV with the heat core, you've got to 'pay the piper' before you get the heat you want, unlike Omicron where you use it as it's produced.

Fun stuff, but everyday fare for engineer types. Not to abandon the shed, of course, that's where lots of the good stuff seems to start out isn't it? Worst case, we're keeping 'em honest......

OF

 

[PhreedomPhries]

You can also run it on flashlight batteries, but I'm not recommending that either.

I disagree, VV does not work the same with convection vapes as conduction. Within reason, any heat source will fire T1. While the core heat is proportional to voltage, it is not liner in that which was the original term?

If they were inclined to, I'm sure TV can recommend a voltage for you. My advice remains 'use what the maker specifies'. No big deal, really. Free advice is worth the price, you know.

Actually, you've personally provided links to other such batteries in the past, if you'll recall. You suggest that the T1 was designed to work off batteries (which are diminishing voltage) and then say that the TV folks can recommend a precise voltage on which to run the device. I think having that ability to vary it between, say, the SAME acceptable range as is witnessed during battery use, would be, not only of no harm to the core, but also no different than what ecig vv devices have been doing for a long while now. Again, it just comes back to the ability to control the density of vapor being produced without having to suck exceedingly softly, or exceedingly intensely, or pulsing the switch, in order to achieve the level of desired vapor. I'd begin to believe you if I saw a video or personal demonstration of a vv power supply failing miserably on a T1. Till then, I think we're going around in circles here. I'm looking at real-world comparisons, you seem to be dwelling on theory I don't think you've proven.

Edit: My theory is unproven on the T1 as well, though has analogous precedents. I just would be up for seeing the experiment played out, is all. I think you're underplaying the significance that voltage would have on how hard or softly you must suck to achieve desired heat transferred temperature into the chamber.

 

[OF]

Actually, you've personally provided links to other such batteries in the past, if you'll recall.

I think you meant "power supply" (only the one I think), not batteries? Yes, I carefully tested one and reported it here. Note, please, it was a fixed voltage unit? Safe and useful, but no guarantee on being optimum...or even close.

Otherwise, sure, please do test away. My advice is otherwise (use the factory unit), but it's a free country....at least in some areas..... You seem to know a lot more about this than the average user, which can be good or bad depending.

Happy Fourth.

OF

 

[PhreedomPhries]

OK, guys, let's see if we can get a little bit of life into this here thread. I've been mulling over just how to bring this up for a bit now and can't make up my mind so I figure I'll just lay it out.

First off, IMO this is definitely an area for EXPERT USERS of the T1 as it was designed. It is not, by any stretch of the imagination, some net.secret anybody can use to get bigger clouds. Nor is it something the (not nearly clever enough) engineers failed to consider IMO. If you're not an expert, IMO you should just avoid the whole thing until you are, enjoy the T1 as designed.

I also believe that if you try this scheme, even once, you've violated your warranty and should not expect TV to replace the unit if you kill it trying this....or anytime afterward. You will be abusing it in a manner not supported by the maker and outside the original guarantee. How they would know this, I don't know, but I guess I think guys should take responsibility for their wishes to 'live on the wild side' and not expect the rest of us to pay for it. Make no mistake about it, that's what happens when guys abuse warranty plans, the 'cost of goods sold' goes up therefore the purchase price for everyone who is honest. 'nuf said on the subject?

Anyway, whatever you do don't ever, for any reason, buy a set or two of these:
http://www.lighthound.com/AW-IMR163...LiMN-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery_p_2626.html

Never charge them in your charger (remembering to use the 3.7 Volt setting, so if you only have the factory charger for the 3.0 Volt LiFePO cells you might get this):
http://www.lighthound.com/DSD-2-Station-Charger_p_290.html

I didn't try that one as my WF-188 does a great job on these little guys.

I'm sure you follow where I'm going with this? This is a serious overload for the T1 in Standard Voltage (6 Volts), don't even consider it for LV. It absolutely will combust on you if you give it even half a chance. It makes it behave entirely differently vape. There is no preheat period, try that and it'll probably blow up or at least be in flames before you get there. Pulse it on for a second or two (at most) at a time and pull like mad. Be careful not to let it get away from you, you can hurt yourself this way.....trust me, it was worse than the other day testing the 8 prototype. Combustion is nasty stuff when you're not ready....some might say even when you are.

So that's it. I'm not going to recommend it, in fact I caution against it unless you're absolutely sure you can manage the machine better than the maker ever expected. And you're willing to take responsibility for the risks of your action (and not expect the warranty to pay for you). If you're down with both those ideas, I think it's a route to some truly shocking hits. The T1 can become a true beast this way. I suspect when coupled with a nice bong it could be a powerful tool, perhaps the top of class?

And before someone asks, no, I do not think it's a good idea to try in Evolution, Revolution, DART, the e-juice adapters or anything else TV makes.

You can light a BBQ with a flame thrower, but not everyone should try? IMO this isn't very far from that. Use with caution if at all.

So there you have it. If you get killed trying, or burn the house down.....I don't know you.

OF

I understand you put a lot of caveats into this post, but here's what I was referring to. Took me a while to go back and find this post, too. But at least now I know I'm not totally

 

[OF]

I understand you put a lot of caveats into this post, but here's what I was referring to. Took me a while to go back and find this post, too. But at least now I know I'm not totally

Nope, that was a whole different thing. That's duty cycle control of the heat to the 'just enough' point. Very different deal.

An interesting, but IMO not useful, experiment.

Yup, it's a battery, but I definitely don't recommend it for normal use, nor even for experimenting unless you're willing to get way out on the thin ice. Loose control of it and it'll get bad real fast.

But no, you're not crazy....at least I don't think so. Not this time. Then again, who am I to judge?

OF

 

[Nick Brand]

In a conduction vape you'd modulate the flow (less volume of warmer air) to do this. In such a system to magically hit the mark each time, you need to control both temperature and flow rate, right?

Take a volcano (a convection system)- It has an airpump forcing air through a heating block deep inside, then thru the herb chamber you mount on top, and on into the bag. The pump is a fixed-rate flow, which takes out a major variability.

Knowing the exact flow rate (C) allows the engineers to calculate how hot the heating block (x) needs to be in order to reach temp (y) at the herb chamber. E.g., the heating block may need to be 460F in order to provide 400F at the herb chamber, given flow-rate C. So, in order to get to the desired temp on the dial the heating block will be adjusted (perhaps w/ a non-linear function, dunno) to provide the right chamber temp.

TVs count on our flow rate, which can be rather fixed (i.e, keeping a steady breath), but not a given (they don't know exactly what your flow rate is). And there's quite a range of flow rate, from no flow (and you'll burn the weed) to too high of a flow (no/poor vaporization). We eventually get the feel of a flow rate that provides the temp/result we're looking for.

TV may be able to give a more precise temperature guideline, like what the chamber temp would be for a given flow rate, across a range of reasonable flow rates. It would be up to us to figure out how to repeat the same flow rates manually. Nerdcore 4 shore, but I'm trying to figure out how to wring volcano-like (or better, with some moisturizing/filtering) performance outta this badboy, which would include a level of temp control/awareness, one way or another. In addition to the big clouds, 'course.

And variable regulated power supplies exist, but to keep things simple maybe only a range of, like, 3-5 fixed voltages would be enough to provide all the finesse you'd need.

Worst case, we're keeping 'em honest......
OF

...or frickin' baffled

 

[OF]

Take a volcano (a convection system)- It has an airpump forcing air through a heating block deep inside, then thru the herb chamber you mount on top, and on into the bag. The pump is a fixed-rate flow, which takes out a major variability.

Knowing the exact flow rate (C) allows the engineers to calculate how hot the heating block (x) needs to be in order to reach temp (y) at the herb chamber. E.g., the heating block may need to be 460F in order to provide 400F at the herb chamber, given flow-rate C. So, in order to get to the desired temp on the dial the heating block will be adjusted (perhaps w/ a non-linear function, dunno) to provide the right chamber temp.

I understand what you're saying (I think) but don't think that's what's happening. I'll bet the heating block is massive and is heated to the delivery temperature (which is why it doesn't matter how much is in the bowl.....). Change the flow rate (isn't there a mouthpiece attachment? I've never used one) and the temperature stays the same, like it does in my HA. Nothing in the machine is much hotter than the air going through the heat exchanger, unlike with the TV system.

OF

 

[Stu]

One factor that you MUST take into consideration with the TV is the temperature of the bowl, and to a lesser extent the entire body. The 'Cano doesn't have to deal with this as much, so it really is apples and oranges when you throw that into the equation.

 

[Nick Brand]

I understand what you're saying (I think) but don't think that's what's happening. I'll bet the heating block is massive and is heated to the delivery temperature (which is why it doesn't matter how much is in the bowl.....). Change the flow rate (isn't there a mouthpiece attachment? I've never used one) and the temperature stays the same, like it does in my HA. Nothing in the machine is much hotter than the air going through the heat exchanger, unlike with the TV system.

OF

I've been using this volcano for years. Unfortunately they're bag only. Pump speed is fixed. Chamber temp is variable, user-adjustable. just google it and all will be revealed. ommmmmmm....

oh what the hay, here's the link...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120461/

crikey! that's not the one. okay, this should work...

http://www.storz-bickel.com/vaporizer/volcano-digit.html

enjoy

 

[PhreedomPhries]

Nerdcore 4 shore, but I'm trying to figure out how to wring volcano-like (or better, with some moisturizing/filtering) performance outta this badboy, which would include a level of temp control/awareness, one way or another. In addition to the big clouds, 'course.

In all honesty, I find the vapor quality of the T1 to out-surpass the quality of the Volcano, straight out the gates. I used to love my Volcano. Now I love my T1. It's a wonderful device for its portability, and all-the-more intriguing is the ability to use it at home, at will, without impacting my poor battery capacities.

I am hoping, and have whispered in their ear, that TV ought to come out with a desktop setup, to which the T1 would be modularly adapted, which could turn the T1 into a forced-air bag system, ilke a Volcano, but with even superior vapor taste and quality thanks to their ingenuitive core technology.

 

[PhreedomPhries]

I understand what you're saying (I think) but don't think that's what's happening. I'll bet the heating block is massive and is heated to the delivery temperature (which is why it doesn't matter how much is in the bowl.....). Change the flow rate (isn't there a mouthpiece attachment? I've never used one) and the temperature stays the same, like it does in my HA. Nothing in the machine is much hotter than the air going through the heat exchanger, unlike with the TV system.

OF

I have got to beg to differ, based on my experience with a faulty Volcano unit that was experiencing drastically reduced airflow, due to a clogged air pump of the original design that lacked the external, removable air filter. Anyways, that Volcano, because of its reduced air throughput delivery past the chamber and into the bag, performed akin to ~6 on the dial, at only ~2 on the dial instead. So, reduced airflow on the Volcano DOES lead to a drastically INCREASED temperature in the chamber, compared to a properly functioning unit.

Edit: The Volcano is very similar to the T1 in that they both have the chamber intermittently exposed to a heat source that is hotter than the temperature that is effectively transferred into the chamber itself. Hence, infrared convection heat.

 

[OF]

I've been using this volcano for years. Unfortunately they're bag only. Pump speed is fixed. Chamber temp is variable, user-adjustable. just google it and all will be revealed. ommmmmmm....

Thanks, I've read about it, followed the thread off and on for a while, thought I recalled some talk about a manual hose (but couldn't figure out how it works unless it's a fan??).

I still think the temperature control is block temperature not bowl temperature and independent of flow rate, like the HA is. You can stop the air and it doesn't blow up, right? The heater duty cycle just slacks off (mechanical version) or PV control (digital version) shifts to maintain the block temperature against the change in load. The photos I've seen of the works tend to support this view as I recall.

In use the load in the bowl is just brought quickly to block temperature (stable over time) by air flow. Like in HA. Stop the air and it naturally cools. The block stays at the same temperature throughout give or take.

OF

 

[Nick Brand]

In all honesty, I find the vapor quality of the T1 to out-surpass the quality of the Volcano, straight out the gates. I used to love my Volcano. Now I love my T1. It's a wonderful device for its portability, and all-the-more intriguing is the ability to use it at home, at will, without impacting my poor battery capacities.

I am hoping, and have whispered in their ear, that TV ought to come out with a desktop setup, to which the T1 would be modularly adapted, which could turn the T1 into a forced-air bag system, ilke a Volcano, but with even superior vapor taste and quality thanks to their ingenuitive core technology.

'zactly!
Scale that puppy, they've already got the "engine". I think they're already on the right track with the ever-expanding modularity thing. and yeah, can't wait to get the T1 and plug it in (got Ac-adapter coming w/ the T1/Rev mod). Phreedom, have you tried the T1 with the Pure-flow filter?

 

[PhreedomPhries]

Phreedom, have you tried the T1 with the Pure-flow filter?

I sure have. And I heartily approve. I find it does dry out rather quickly though, as I tend to like to take a nice long draw. I prefer, when I do use it, to keep it re-saturated after each hit, ideally. I just keep a glass of water nearby to dip the tip into and then shake it dry, for convenience.

Edit: Sorry, I was referring to the Smooth-Flow adapter, NOT the Pure-flow filter. My bad. The filter is too restrictive to provide pleasurable results.

 

[Nick Brand]

...now having a volcano bag, temp set to 205C/401F. I used to use 185C, but 205C reaches up into cbd evap temps and fills out the high a bit.

 

[Nick Brand]

I sure have. And I heartily approve. I find it does dry out rather quickly though, as I tend to like to take a nice long draw. I prefer, when I do use it, to keep it re-saturated after each hit, ideally. I just keep a glass of water nearby to dip the tip into and then shake it dry, for convenience.

Wow, man. You've made me so happy with this news. This would be an area where it outdo the 'cano in vapor quality/pureness.

I'd already thought 'bout just what you said, for home-based excursions, except I was thinking of using an eye-dropper, but the dipping and shaking out idea sounds perfect.

Does it tend to get clogged? I was also thinking something like a tiny screen mod, say cut from a volcano screen, somewhere before the pure-filter, could help slow down the clogging?

 

[PhreedomPhries]

Wow, man. You've made me so happy with this news. This would be an area where it outdo the 'cano in vapor quality/pureness.

I'd already thought 'bout just what you said, for home-based excursions, except I was thinking of using an eye-dropper, but the dipping and shaking out idea sounds perfect.

Does it tend to get clogged? I was also thinking something like a tiny screen mod, say cut from a volcano screen, somewhere before the pure-filter, could help slow down the clogging?

OF is a fan of using a screen atop the herb. I have found that to be an inconvenience, to keep the screen clean, and properly placed, I found to be about a wash with the hassle of keeping the cap clear, which I do by blowing it out thoroughly every few hits, while it's hot, to facilitate the stuff blowing away more easily. Every few days, I will run the cap under the shower spray head, on high heat. That clears everything right out to tip-top shape.

To be clear, and as I edited above, the Smooth-flow adapter is what kicks ass, the filter is a bit much on the restriction. Not too difficult keeping the adapter clean. Just run under hot water or boil every so often. The vapor is so nice and pure, it doesn't need that filtration.

 

[Nick Brand]

Thanks for the clarification PP. Is the Pure-Filter physically impossible? can the smooth and pure be stacked? I wonder if bong leverage (using a glass adapter) would make it easier to pull through the pure-filter...

 

[PhreedomPhries]

Thanks for the clarification PP. Is the Pure-Filter physically impossible? can the smooth and pure be stacked? I wonder if bong leverage (using a glass adapter) would make it easier to pull through the pure-filter...

They can be stacked. That's kinda nice to enjoy with the Rev/DART, if a wee bit cumbersome. I have a feeling you're correct, to an extent, about water pipe leverage. I just may have to go do an experiment right now... But it is fairly physically laborious with the T1, handheld, to answer your first question.