Are clouds of vapor counterproductive?

[MinnBobber]

Are vapor clouds counterproductive?
that might depend on if you live in a legal state/have plentiful access OR if you live in a backwoods non-legal state where you have to stretch out a meager stash to the max, where you can't afford to waste any herbage.

IMO, big clouds of vapor being exhaled are clearly inefficient in stretching your herb stash BUT if you have a decent/regular/inexpensive supply, you might very well say WTF, I don't care as I love to blow big clouds and I don't care!!!

Emotional value of clouds is probably true too. That's why I have a vape station with a vape light so I can see my "mini-cloud". Without the light, my exhale would be virtually invisible but with the light----it looks like a mega-cloud

EDIT-and I'm convinced that exhaled vapor holds a lot of goodies. Our lungs are designed to extract oxygen from the inhaled air and figures show each breath extracts only about 1/3 of the inhaled oxygen so they are not perfect extractors, even for their designed element, oxygen.
The lungs are also imperfect extractors of cannabis goodies so you are exhaling good stuff.
Rebreathing techniques definitely help, but again, if you opt to do so or if you opt to say f#ck it, I'll just take another virgin hit.

 

[biohacker]

I'm convinced that the majority of visible vapor is water vapor or steam, not gas-phase cannabinoids and terpenes. The vast majority of plant biomass is water, vaping uses temps well above boiling, just seems like a straightforward conclusion to me.

I agree about the water vapour, if the buds aren't super dry or well cured. When dry it mostly comes down to condensation/particulate, which also explains why finer grinds produce bigger clouds, but ofcourse temperature dependent. Then there is the potential of pyrolysis and vapour/smoke hybrids, but i'm not getting into that again after the vapcap thread that was shutdown! So vaping physics also plays a factor here.

Personally, I love my clouds, but will be experimenting with micros and lower temp vaping after my cannabis reboot/reset.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

1. I'm convinced that the majority of visible vapor is water vapor or steam, not gas-phase cannabinoids and terpenes. The vast majority of plant biomass is water, vaping uses temps well above boiling, just seems like a straightforward conclusion to me.

i'm not so sure.

since i have the only all glass vape in the neighborhood, i get asked to sample fresh picked herb for taste and doneness ... so, at first, the glass draw tube fills with water vapor, which i have to swab out several times before the water vapor is all gone - takes about 5 minutes for 0.12g of herb - and then the thc can be extracted.

and there is no cloud when exhaling the water vapor - seems to be all absorbed in the lungs ... so, my experience is that the water is gone by the time the clouds arrive. same as when the herb is dried to below 50%RH, which never condenses water inside the draw tube, only a bit of thc vapor - depending on the trichrome load.

 

[C No Ego]

My two cents:

1. I'm convinced that the majority of visible vapor is water vapor or steam, not gas-phase cannabinoids and terpenes. The vast majority of plant biomass is water, vaping uses temps well above boiling, just seems like a straightforward conclusion to me.

2. I personally believe that it only takes a few seconds to absorb active ingredients, but aside from that, I'd prefer to "waste" a minute amount of cannabis than rebreathe or hold in oxygen-depleted air, already diluted with vapor. I'm not vaping diamond dust, it's just fucking weed.



I think this hits the nail on the head, stone cold. Only instructions required are "use until happy".

one of my last pick ups was seriously good and dry kief city herb... Grind and it just turned directly to kief lol... it produced clouds way more than other strains by a long shot and it was way drier to boot... it was the kief that kept the load going full blast and I had a blast! I am 100% sure no water vapor or steam was involved and I was blowing massive clouds with that strain... I could rebreath or ghost the hit like 6 times easily with that strain and still had vapor pouring even out of my ears LOL

 

[cybrguy]

2) What is the optimum amount of time to hold it in versus blowing it out and hitting it a second time. We know that as we are holding Hit 1 that at the same time we are losing Hit 2 (because it is burning up in the bowl and evaporating into the atmosphere as we hold Hit 1).

This is plainly not true. It may well be (certainly is) true with some session vapes, but I'm quite sure I lose NOTHING between hits on my RBT vapes, on my Lotus, and frankly practically nothing even in my Herbalaire (which is a session vape) if I tap out the crucible between hits. Even in my VapCaps I suspect I lose very little as I always hit until the click so the ambient heat in the cap is likely below the point where it is still boiling terps until I reapply the torch.

The truth is, if my girl can get high (plenty high) from re-breathing the exhaust from my hit, the argument about whether we waste effects by taking huge hits is over. We can argue about HOW MUCH WE WASTE, but not about whether we waste anything. We can certainly decide we don't care or that the value of seeing the clouds supersede our concern about the waste, but if I were in a place where goods were scarce or I was broke, taking hits that mostly blew clouds would be counterproductive. IMHO.

 

[biohacker]

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/shotgunning.7074/

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vapor-recycling-breathing-technique.16857/#post-718217

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/sharing-vapor.11438/#post-488410

 

[invertedisdead]

Riddle me this - If I use a powerful extractor, say my Vapcap; I can extract the whole load in one hit. That will make a single good sized cloud, with complete extraction. If I loaded the same amount in a session vape, like my Arizer Air; I could puff on it for a whole 8+ minute session, the total amount of clouds is seemingly many, many times more than that one rip from my Vapcap. So what's allowing me to get so much more clouds from a session vape? I'm not really convinced more clouds = more vapor with active cannabinoids. When I used to do 3 big volcano bags in a row I made tons of clouds, it never got me anywhere that a small dab with a small cloud doesn't today so again I'm not seeing the relationship between clouds and high.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

are you comparing herb to dabs? and how about temperature comparison between vapcap, air and volcano - you would have to actually measure each using a BBQ thermometer to get useful data to answer your riddle.

 

[invertedisdead]

I'm comparing clouds to effect. I'm always going to get more clouds puffing on a vape for 10 minutes than I do in one hit, regardless of any of those variables. But it doesn't increase effect; thus I'm not convinced clouds = active cannabinoids.

 

[C No Ego]

I'm comparing clouds to effect. I'm always going to get more clouds puffing on a vape for 10 minutes than I do in one hit, regardless of any of those variables. But it doesn't increase effect; thus I'm not convinced clouds = active cannabinoids.

it has to do with your cb receptors... when they absorb cannabinoids they just do... how the absorption occurred matters not to the receptors and the effects after absorption are just that... personally for myself, temp stepping a session vape will eventually plateau at a great high but the first few hits are the most important with a full terpene flavor profile present to direct thc and cbd better for max absorption... the longer you can maintain that initial terpene rush without melting the terps the better over all effects... this is IMO why one big hit will not be as effective at terp extraction instead of spacing out a few hits

 

[invertedisdead]

it has to do with your cb receptors... when they absorb cannabinoids they just do... how the absorption occurred matters not to the receptors and the effects after absorption are just that... personally for myself, temp stepping a session vape will eventually plateau at a great high but the first few hits are the most important with a full terpene flavor profile present to direct thc and cbd better for max absorption... the longer you can maintain that initial terpene rush without melting the terps the better over all effects... this is IMO why one big hit will not be as effective at terp extraction instead of spacing out a few hits

Terpenes are so volatile though, look how many off gas at room temp just during curing. IME the terpenes and THC are the first things to vaporize with their relatively low boiling points in comparison to common vaporization temperatures. Even at incredibly low temp vaping I find it difficult to keep that intense complete mouth feel of terpenes after any more than say two hits.

And I've never had a terpene rush from flower that could compare to an extract. The terpenes often "linger" in concentrates, which at least seems to direct the actives to the appropriate receptors quicker. I believe that concentration of terpenes is much responsible for the potentiated effects of the extracted plant matter when compared to its original flower form.

 

[C No Ego]

Terpenes are so volatile though, look how many off gas at room temp just during curing. IME the terpenes and THC are the first things to vaporize with their relatively low boiling points in comparison to common vaporization temperatures. Even at incredibly low temp vaping I find it difficult to keep that intense complete mouth feel of terpenes after any more than say two hits.

And I've never had a terpene rush from flower that could compare to an extract. The terpenes often "linger" in concentrates, which at least seems to direct the actives to the appropriate receptors quicker. I believe that concentration of terpenes is much responsible for the potentiated effects of the extracted plant matter when compared to its original flower form.

terpenes add delicate balance to the biochemical pharmacological effects no doubt... the volatile sensitivity to atmospherics shows how delicate they really are and any heat will degrade them... I've found that the plant material ( fiber) in the vape helps to buffer terpene release somewhat just from the mass of the material itself... it is really short lived though to say the least...
my idea of adding terps back into a vape session "like a garden hose fertilizer adapter " looks like a promising way to use terps and keep them active longer during the session.. one of our favorite vape companies need to make a vape with a side chamber terp dip add on extension... soon I'm sure as I'm not the only one realizing how important the terps are

 

[KeroZen]

Important indeed, but also possibly detrimental when in excess! I imagine your idea would rely on some kind of essential oils cartridges and I'm afraid it would be too easy to over-indulge. Those things are so potent, sometimes less is more.

Even at incredibly low temp vaping I find it difficult to keep that intense complete mouth feel of terpenes after any more than say two hits.

Really depends on the vape you use I think. With a properly temp-regulated conduction vape like the Ascent for instance, the taste around 175°C stays great until it doesn't produce any vapor. Then at 185°C it still super tasty, and clearly for more than two hits (I know, my hits are ridiculously small in comparison to yours but still... I'm talking about 10+ minutes sipping the thing like a cig) When reaching 195°C it's usually soon gone, and above you're left with the roasted ABV popcorn taste only.

Note that when starting directly at 195°C or above, the taste is indeed gone pretty fast like you said.

So far the only exception has been the Zion. For some hard to explain reason, the taste stays great until very late into the session...

 

[C No Ego]

Important indeed, but also possibly detrimental when in excess! I imagine your idea would rely on some kind of essential oils cartridges and I'm afraid it would be too easy to over-indulge. Those things are so potent, sometimes less is more.



Really depends on the vape you use I think. With a properly temp-regulated conduction vape like the Ascent for instance, the taste around 175°C stays great until it doesn't produce any vapor. Then at 185°C it still super tasty, and clearly for more than two hits (I know, my hits are ridiculously small in comparison to yours but still... I'm talking about 10+ minutes sipping the thing like a cig) When reaching 195°C it's usually soon gone, and above you're left with the roasted ABV popcorn taste only.

Note that when starting directly at 195°C or above, the taste is indeed gone pretty fast like you said.

So far the only exception has been the Zion. For some hard to explain reason, the taste stays great until very late into the session...

yeah, people would start to smell of terpenes all day... they would be like, that terp dip is some strong stuff! why do I smell like a lavender orange all the time, lol?