Lung burn when vaping - bad news for vaping?

Hello Folks
I'm a healthy 40+ years old. I exercise cardiovascularly 5 times a week. I have been an athlete in the past so I know what it means to do cardiovascular work.

I started using cannabis again about 3 years ago after 10 years rest. I'm not a daily consumer, vaporizing 3 times maximum per week with 0.3/0.35 gr. Overall I am a light consumer, about 1 gram/week, vaping always below 200 C which is below tars and CO and benzene start forming.

I grow my organic staff. No liquid fertilizer. I use it against stress, as I have the tendency to accumulate it?

I had problems with dry throat in the beginning of vaping because I have chronic rinities for ages due to an allergy, which makes my mucosa sensible. I overcome it by attaching my vape to a water pipe and drinking some water after every 2/3 hits, which I do and things improved a lot.

Recently I also added very hot water to my vape because I read it was better than iced cold water on the throat. Things got even better on the throat.

However after a couple of times I did that, I felt a burning sensation in my lung if I take big hits. Small hits are ok, but not big hits anymore. It started about 2 weeks ago, a few days after I used hot water.


I did an Internet search on possible causes and I did not find much, except this interesting article saying that "burnt lung feeling" is given when people have been chronic smokers for years or have had a serious pulmonary illness in the past.

http://www.stonerdays.com/stoner-guide-vapes-bad-lungs/

Well, I've never had any of these two things and I have no problem at all with breathing during my intense aerobic exercise. Since I started vaping I have some small mucus production but no cough or staff like that. I did pulmonary exams 1 year ago and everything was ok.

All of this is to ask your opinion on following two aspects:

1. Can the heated water caused/causes some minor irritation on my lungs so that now I feel that burning lung sensation in big hits? I still use warm water.

2. Isn't the cannabis oil that gets to my lungs at 170-200 C, causing this burning sensation?

This second case is what worries me more because when vaporizing, we are actually breathing heated oil. These are tiny small particle that can fly only because the mechanics of vapor works in that way. If the oil wouldn't be much hotter than the surrounding, it wouldn't fly. So when it reaches the lungs, hot heated oil can irritate or even burn them if the vape is too hot... That would be bad news for vaping... After vaping repeatedly for a long time - which I never did as I am a light MJ user, but I have very sensitive mucosa because of my allergy, remember? - .... So who vapes for a long time can have damaged lungs because of the heated oil deposited on the lung?

What do you think could be the cause of my lung burning sensation when taking long hits?
Did you experienced similar issue before?

In addition, vaping can be pretty harsh on throat and after a long time, vaping can also be a cause for some serious illness to develop.

What do you thing about this also? Vaping bad on lungs and throat because of mechanical problems due to too much heat in the vapor but not for the vapor compounds that are perfectly safe...


EDIT: just to clarify even more my point... When burning during combustion, the smoke is full of contaminants in a molecular form in the smoke that is basically hot air at 500+ C. However, hot air can get warm almost instantekt when mixed with cold air. Which is what happens when smoking, where there are tons of hazardous chemicals in the smoke that get warmer. Lung problems by smokers are caused by the toxins and not by the heat

The dynamics of vaping is still pretty much unknown. The resin is an oil. When it reaches its boiling point it evaporates by the million of particles still are in the form of oil, correct? The oil is much more difficult to cool than the smoke, correct? So it would reach the lung at a higher T. Right or wrong? Can vaping also damage the lungs somehow after a long use?

I would stop vaporizing for a few weeks then go back to it and see how you feel. Maybe the water was too hot that you were using in your WT? maybe with your allergy you might find that you have developed s problem with cannabis.

I had combusted cannabis for many years - 20+. I discovered the joys of vaporizing about 2 1/2 years ago. All I can tell you is from my experience. I felt so much better health wise when I fucked combustion. I had noticed some problems with my lungs. Every time I caught a cold it woul go down into my lungs. I had noticed a bit of a cough at times in the morning. I had remembered my dad's smokers cough and didn't want to end up like him.

After just a month or so I noticed I felt better after I quit combusting. I no longer have any lung issues myself but I can't talk for anybody else. I noticeed that my sense of smell and taste was much better. I felt less tired and overall I felt better. I even sleep better now than when combusting. I no longer catch every cold that rotates around at work either.

I just wished I had discovered vaporizing sooner.

The only times when I get that burning feeling in my lungs is due to either:

The water being too hot........you don't want hot........you want warm.
Taking hits that are too big at high temperatures.
Using a vaporizer that has a very short vapor path.

Which vaporizer are you using and if it has temperature controls, what temp is it set at?

Hey Lwien I have a plenty. I used to run it at full T coz I didn't know how to vape. Now I've learnt and vape at 5.5 and finish just below 6, meaning 180 (start) to 195 C (end) or 356-383 F... It' s just below combustion. Maximum of Plenty is 7, supposedly 210C, and I haven't been there for a few months already. Maybe 195 C is too high? I guess this is in between safety T range and I'm there only the last 3/4 puffs...

How many puffs per session do you take?
Maybe I take too many... I take about 15 per session. I wait when the T is where I set it to and take 3 puffs. Then the temperatures goes down and I wait until when the T is up and back to where I want it before taking other 3 puffs. I do this 5 or 6 times. When I open the oven, the grass is brownish with minor amount of greenish parts and minor amount of dark brown.... Far away from when I vaped at 200C up to
210 C when the grass was all dark brown and a few pieces black-brown...


What about the article I posted?
http://www.stonerdays.com/stoner-guide-vapes-bad-lungs/

What is the dynamics of vapor absorption by the lung? At what T does the vapor reach the lung? We still know soooo little about vaping and how to do it properly. There is a whole science behind it and we know very little still...

I find that warm water in a bubbler feels really uncomfortable for me and I have never enjoyed it! I just use room temp water which has been boiled. Also if you are getting too much irritation, use the cleanest possible concentrates. Less stuff to inhale, less inactive material getting heated and inhaled.

organic weed,
interesting post
The vapor that gets to your lungs, even with a dry hit with only a 2 inch mouthpiece is nowhere near 170 C. Even when vaped at 435 F (230? C)
However, vapor is very dry. That's why a water piece with warm ( or I even use very very warm) water is a great addition. Warmer water moisturizes the vapor more than room temp water.

Using warm water, I did find that there was a feeling in my lungs that felt like burning, but it was not.
I determined it to be, way tooo big of a hit that was easy to do with the more moist vapor BUT it was still way too much cannabis at one time.

The warm water makes it super easy to take huge hits as the moist vapor actually feels good on the mouth and throat. BUT in the lungs, it's just too much mj at once.
It feels like "hot" but it's really just "too much". I'd exhale and there would be a lingering---I may need to cough...

IMO, "too hot" is rarely an issue with vaping. "Too Dry" or "too much" can be issues.

Like lwien said---what vape, what temp,.... and what water piece?

Ok I also sensed that sometimes I did get too much MJ at once. This feeling happens more with one of my strain that is loaded with resin. However it's a recent sensation, it just started 2 weeks ago. I will try to decrease the T of water and use it warm and not hot and take a 2 weeks T-break and then valorize again and see if things have changed.

I have also read that MJ oil is acidic and maybe this is why it can be harsh lungs if taken too much at once..

minnbobber , how do you know the vapor ( oil ) is no where near 170 when it reaches your tissues ? do you know of any studies or anything that you could link for me ? im very interested in this. also and or any studies of temps of smoke when reaching the important parts of the lungs like the alveoli .

Minnbobber it's not only the heat that reaches the lung but the acidic component of the MJ that can irritate them. If you clean you skin with improper soap, your skin will develop rushes. Can this happen also with vaped MJ?

About the heat, I'd like to remember that we are inhaling heated oil which is much more difficult to cool off that combusted air....

I'm playing the devil's advocate here and almost everybody that switched to vape from combustion felt much better, but how much safer is it really? Lots of people have posted the same question in hundreds of thred here but nobody has given a satisfactory answer yet coz the science is not there yet... It will take 10 years to have a more complete picture and my 2 cents is that it is safer than combusting but it's not 100% safe. Second generation vaporizers -- something we haven't invented yet -- will be much safer and 3rd even more and so forth... That's called progress or evolution and who pays for the learning curve unfortunately is the previous generation... That happened with combustion and it will happen with vaping also

the heat issue can be fixed by using a ballon vape .

I dunno man, heat from vaping? lung burn? I read the article and thought it was a light opinion piece so no more than any post on here generally I would say.

surely any of the above you mention would be the same through smoking if not worse? imagine the boiling temp reached by breathing that combusted oil - bullet dodged

and acid now? my word

Vaping is a much healthier alternative to smoking but it's not healthy to inhale any substance into your lungs heated or not. Doing this regularly will most likely cause some side effects but how noticeable these are would probably depend on the individual.
I'd be sceptical of anyone who says vaping is actually good for you however for some it can provide medicinal benefits, & for others it's a fulfilling replacement for smoking that definitely feels less harmful & imo is more enjoyable & less addictive.

Poostuff I personally think MJ is a very healthy substance if the following two aspects are considered:

1. Use vs abuse. Most of the people abuse marijuana. They don't use it. There is no rational for somebody that has some minor pain to consume 1 or 3 grams per day. Unfortunately science is not giving us the answer yet on quantity and frequency. For my "stress accumulation disorder", which is a minor problem, I think and fell that I don't need to vape every day and not even large quantities. But because MJ gives a pleasurable feelings sometimes I've had the thought the feeling and "need" to vape more than I needed. This brought me to consume more for some time with an increase of some of the light effects we know: sputum, etc... These side effects are negligible for those who suffer from severe pain but not for those who have mild conditions like myself. The issue here is how to get the right dose and frequency for specific conditions and stick to that dose without increasing. It requires some serious focus and a good dose of awareness and knowledge on the side effects of abuse. Unfortunately we have no/little scientific information on all of these matters, especially on vaping

2. Vector for MJ assumption. We all know combustion is very bad. Vaping is better but how much? And edibles can be bad for the liver over a long time? What about tinctures? All these are still open questions...

Actually, vaping has been shown to have at least one major benefit - people that consume marijuana have a lower risk of cancer in their lifetime. They have also found that even after heavily smoking weed for over 20 years "had no impact on lung function" (http://goo.gl/dkmC7m).

You mentioned you were using homegrown - if your homegrown wasn't properly cured or if you didn't properly flush it (even if you used organic fertilizer), there could be harsh or even harmful chemicals in the vapor. At least as a test, you might try some professionally grown/cured weed and compare how your lungs feel.

I actually think you already know the answer to you question - stop taking big hits

I am a 20+ year ex-smoker who suffered from chronic bronchitis for years and only started using cannabis again about 2 years ago, vaping exclusively for the last year. My lungs are wonderful - zero congestion or coughing - unless I over do it - like trying to inhale an entire bag of vapor. Then I cough my head off, and as I learned years ago with bronchitis, the coughing itself irritates the lungs and can lead to bronchitis. My doc used to give me these little round pills if I felt a cough-from-cold turning into a lung infection, and all it did was stop me from coughing. Stop the coughing and the lungs don't get infected (bronchitis) - worked about 90% of the time.

What I personally love most about vaping is that you can get just as medicated slowly vaping than trying to do "lung busters", which never made much sense to me, even back in my college days (late 70's). Back then, one bad bong hit could leave me wheezing all night, so I couldn't smoke as much. Very counter-productive.

Oh, as an FYI... water vapor itself can be quite irritating to some people with allergies.

I have sleep apnea and use a CPAP device at night so I don't stop breathing - and almost everyone that uses a CPAP uses a heated water device to humidify the air going into their nose and lungs. When I started using my CPAP, I had terrible asthma attacks during the day, and started wheezing without an inhaler. Long story short - it was the humidified water (distilled) causing all of my woes. Stopped using water, and 10 years later I am still using the CPAP with zero lung issues. Doc says this is true for about 5-10% of CPAP users.

organic weed said:

I felt a burning sensation in my lung if I take big hits. Small hits are ok, but not big hits anymore.

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I had this quote sitting here while I ate breakfast and @Solomon beat me to the reply.

You already know your limits so don't take big hits, pretty simple solution if "small hits are ok" and big hits bother your lungs.

For example; I have one friend who runs his vapolution 2 at around 3 O'clock on the dial, works well for him but would kill me with gasping and coughing so I don't run mine that hot. Why would I wanna take bigger hotter hits if they're not comfortable for me, use a little self control and take smaller hits if big hits aren't for you.

chris 71 said:

minnbobber , how do you know the vapor ( oil ) is no where near 170 C when it reaches your tissues ? ....... .

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Skin "Scalds" at a temp of 140 F with exposure for 5 seconds. 140 F = 60 C. Scalding means a 3rd degree burn.

Vapor temps fall of rapidly. With my miniVAP set at 230 C = 435 F, and the shorty mouthpiece, my lips are less than 3" from the 230 C chamber and I can take straight hits without scalding. It's dry but temp is tolerable.

Add a longer whip or bubbler and temps are much lower.

Too dry or too much can be an issue, as I said earlier

ragnorak71 said:

I dunno man, heat from vaping? lung burn? I read the article and thought it was a light opinion piece so no more than any post on here generally I would say.

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That's putting it mildly. That piece was mostly "what if?s" and zero clinical discussion or data. It is not evidence of anything whatsoever.

This subject seems to be turning into a little stealth FC meme...the idea that "vaping is worse than smoking"....or that vaping is much more harmful than previous research has indicated. Be nice to see some real data on this, rather than speculation. Because so far, that's all I've seen, and some of it has bordered on panic-mongering. (Not here, but other threads....)

@ragnorak71 and @mitchgo61

I am sorry here to disagree with you on many different fronts.

Because of my background and job, I can guarantee you that I could write easily a scientific piece if I had enough data and information on this topic. My intervention couldn't be a scientific piece because there is simply not much scientific info on vaporizers. That's a fact.

I did a bit of literature research thorough major scientific databases such as www.sciencedirect.com and there is very little scientific paper (I found 3 articles only and they are not recent) on the proven benefits of vaporizers compared to smoking, showing that there is much less CO and carcinogen released. However, these tests have been mostly (only?) carried out with the Volcano. There are a lot of vaporizers around where the conveyer tube passes through plastic pieces made in China that could easily be heated up releasing toxins. Please send me scientific papers made with other vaporizers other than the Volcano and then we can start talking again.

In addition to this, there is no historical record long enough to prove scientifically that vaporizers are healthy. This is just an unexplored field and people start putting money in the health science behind vaporizer only now. We can only assume they are better but not prove scientifically that vape is an healthy option. How much healthier? Nobody knows. Prove me wrong on this point with hard scientific evidence please, and statistically significant population monitored over 20 years.

Most of the scientific papers out there have made comparison analysis between perceptions of people who vape and those who don't, because so far this is the only thing we can do. We do not have for example a statistically track record of 5000 people vaporizing 1 gram daily over 20 years that prove that vaping is healthy.

If you have such scientific evidence then please, once again, send me the scientific paper coz I can back up with hard science and quotations everything I am claiming here if you ask for it.

I can send and link a paper saying that 40% of the people that used vaporizer had sputum production compared to 60% of those who smoke. I can't do it now coz I'm traveling but I'll glad to do so if you'd like when I get back home. This data shows that it's better but not that much. Sputum means irritation and irritation over a long time causes many different problems.

Why is vaporizing irritating then the lung and throat? What is it causing it? What is the dynamics in the cell of daily THC coating?

Do you have scientific evidence showing that it' safe? Do you have a paper saying that 5000 people vaped daily 1 gram over 20 years and none of them had chronic bronchitis?

Let be frank. I think you comment on my post is more out of hope than based on scientific evidence. I can back up what I claim with science and ready to do so if asked. Are you able to do the same and provide me with data on your claims?

I am playing a bit of the devil's advocate here but I think the whole vaping community shall be aware that we are a few years away from knowing what are the real health and benefits of vaping. This will only happen when we will have a statistically significant population monitored over a period of time.

organic weed said:

....I can back up what I claim with science and ready to do so if asked. Are you able to do the same and provide me with data on your claims?....

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All credible research that I've read points to vaporizing being much much healthier than smoking cannabis.
Such as:
......
A 2004 study in the Journal of Cannabis Therapeutics found that vaporized marijuana contained little other than cannabinoids, and a 2007 study found users inhaled fewer toxic compounds and carbon monoxide when vaping compared with smoking marijuana.

And in 2010, Earleywine and his colleague Nicholas Van Dam found that marijuana users who complain of respiratory irritation reported a stark improvement in their symptoms just a month after switching to vaporized forms of marijuana. Those symptoms include asthma, shortness of breath and coughing up phlegm. The researchers also measured objective improvement in the participants' lung function
......
When one smokes a joint, or hits their bong approximately 88% of the combusted smoke gases contain non-cannabinoid elements, most of which do not get you high and provide potential health risks.

Conversely when one uses a marijuana vaporizer the smoke/gases that they are inhaling consists of approximately 95% cannabinoids, otherwise known as the psychoactive ingredients that both calm the mind and soothe the body.
......

It's really a no brainer. The only question in my mind is, is vaping 20 times healthier than smoking or is it 50 or 100 times healthier?? That's the magnitude of difference between the two techniques.
Is vaping 100% risk free/ 100% good for your health?? I don't know, but there is no reason to believe smoking cannabis is a healthier option. Nothing is absolutely 100% safe as water is needed for life BUT people have died from drinking too much water.

@MinnBobber maybe I haven't been clear enough.... What are the health impacts or benefits of vaporizing 1 gram of cannabis over 20 years?

Who is telling you that vaping over 20 years an x amount of cannabis won't have any adversed and still unknown consequences?

No more "vaping is better than smoking" please. This is not the point. The point is that we don't know the health consequence of vaping over a long time. You cannot compare it with smoking because they are 2 different dynamics, different by products, different composition. Drinking 1 glass of wine per day over 20 years is fine. Drinking 1 bottle of wine per day over 20 years is not.

Please reply with scientific evidence on this point.

steama said:

This is not a difficult problem to solve. Inhaling anything other than air can cause discomfort and impair breathing.

As previously stated by @CarolKing you need to quit vaping for a time for your lungs to recover. When you pick it up again start slow and just with a single technique. Like vaping through water, try this only and see how it goes. If you feel some discomfort try adding some warm not hot water and see how that goes. If you still feel discomfort increase the water temperature and see how it feels. You catch my drift?

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@steama thanx already doing it and it works... However this is not my point and the question is still unanswered. See my post right above

organic weed said:

@ragnorak71 and @mitchgo61


Let be frank. I think you comment on my post is more out of hope than based on scientific evidence.

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I'm always frank. If I were commenting on your post because I "hope" vaping is healthier than smoking, I would have said that. It's not hope, it's a sincere attempt to clear up misinformation on this subject by asking folks (like yourself) who come into these forums and make claims about health issues to back them up with links. The link provided was, nothing personal, completely useless with regard to providing clinical evidence.

organic weed said:

@ragnorak71 and @mitchgo61


Because of my background and job, I can guarantee you that I could write easily a scientific piece if I had enough data and information on this topic. My intervention couldn't be a scientific piece because there is simply not much scientific info on vaporizers. That's a fact.

.

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That's a "fact"...that there isn't enough data to make a scientific assessment? So why are you postulating health hazards from vaping? Sounds like a classic "not enough data" problem, from your perspective. To which I say "fine...don't fear monger in the face of insufficient data".

organic weed said:

@ragnorak71 and @mitchgo61
. I can back up what I claim with science and ready to do so if asked. Are you able to do the same and provide me with data on your claims?
.

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I didn't make any claims. But since you offered, I'm asking. Let's see your links.

@steama you got my point. Finally somebody who is willing to talk about this without fear. How much the lungs will be "fucked up" in relation to quantity and frequency of use will be only answered in a few years time unfortunately. My personal unscientific opinion is that there' s an unknown individual and collective limit that puts the individual in a risky territory based on the frequency/quantity relation. Low dose/frequency may be ok (hopefully), high dose/frequency may be not...

@mitchgo61 give me a few days... That will be helpful exercise to me also

so no empirical data but anecdotal evidence that smoking just a little bit is ok? i mean if you are not even going to put any effort in to advance what appears to be a cunning agenda then really, tsk tsk.

we ask for the proof you originally stated and you say there isnt any but we cannot prove our claims either so there. wasnt our claim that we disagreed with yours and wanted proof?

gogo the circle argument

My

Fuck scientific studies.
When you have 350+ very experienced folks telling you what's right, you don't need a scientific study.

My money is always on the anecdotal evidence.

And to stay on topic, I initially had some lung 'strain.' Only initially, since it was due (anecdotally) to drawing too hard on a constricted air path. Pulled my lung hairs every which way.