Siebter
Less soul, more mind
425°C to be exact, as @MinnBobber already mentioned.
The MB distribution does not only refer to gasses, but any particle that is volatile.
Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects
- Thread starter tdavie
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The MB distribution does not only refer to gasses, but any particle that is volatile.
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
ok i see yeah so the mixture we inhale definitely contains significant amount of THC gas, THC oil, and air. it's not just air+oils.
MB distribution works here it seems, higher temp leads to less oils being left in the herb.
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
I'm having a bit of an issue with the term. Under normal conditions, hydrogen can be a gas. Oxygen too. But these are elements, not a complex molecule like THC. As long as it's intact, it's still a liquid (or an oil, if you will), only with enough kinetic energy for us to inhale conveniently.
Again: every liquid evaporates all the time. Take a glass of water and watch it – even at room temp, a significant amount will eventually be gone, just takes some time. In the case of THC it evaporates too slow for us to inhale because under normal conditions it doesn't have enough kinetic energy, so we have to increase its kinetic energy by increasing its temperature (basically temperature *is* kinetic energy). But it's a much more gradual procedure than what those charts suggest, because they only show the temperature where *all* thc molecules have enough kinetic energy to evaporate (and again: in a world without air pressure...). It creates such a misleading narrative of all the components being neatly divided by their boiling points, suggesting we could precisely enjoy a certain component by choosing a certain temperature on our vape (and avoiding others by avoiding their boiling points). And that's just totally not the case.
GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
I understand,
so the mixture is like : Air+THC oil+Terpenes oil+Terpenes gas+very very minimal THC gas, almost nothing. to be exact. i think.
THC has a vapor pressure ofc, but very minimal. almost every liquid/solid has a vapor pressure above it, it seems
Siebter
Less soul, more mind
We should rather call it "temperature" or "kinetic energy" instead of "vapor pressure" (I know I did so myself...). The pressure comes from outside. Our atmosphere is creating it – think of it like weight that sits on everything. In space we don't have that pressure, hence boiling points are much lower than here on earth.
It's the same effect that lets water boil at lower temperatures when you're on a mountain. You can even let water boil at room temperature by simply decreasing the pressure of the area surrounding it, see →here. So either you decrease the pressure or increase the kinetic energy / temperature, both will let liquids evaporate faster and eventually boil. The numbers we see in said charts refer to an environment with zero pressure, hence are no practical reference points here on earth (unless we introduce the respective pressure into the equation).
I suppose we would need a temperature well above the combustion line to have any of the key elements be in a gaseous state. What we inhale is mostly droplets with a relatively high temp – still a liquid, but with a kinetic booster.
It's the same effect that lets water boil at lower temperatures when you're on a mountain. You can even let water boil at room temperature by simply decreasing the pressure of the area surrounding it, see →here. So either you decrease the pressure or increase the kinetic energy / temperature, both will let liquids evaporate faster and eventually boil. The numbers we see in said charts refer to an environment with zero pressure, hence are no practical reference points here on earth (unless we introduce the respective pressure into the equation).
I suppose we would need a temperature well above the combustion line to have any of the key elements be in a gaseous state. What we inhale is mostly droplets with a relatively high temp – still a liquid, but with a kinetic booster.
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Radwin Bodnic
Well-Known Member
I'd like to add that cannabinoids are trapped inside the heads of glandular trichromes. It is a closed system where there is no air inside the glands but just oil. Cannabinoids just can't escape even with enough kinetic energy, unless we melt the waxy membranes of the trichromes.
And then during the thermal extraction process, the viscosity of the oils turns them into droplets.
And then during the thermal extraction process, the viscosity of the oils turns them into droplets.
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GoldenBud
Well-Known Member
I think the cannabinoids can escape because the air outside is lacking from cannabinoids and the system wants to reach equilibrium. Same reason why our wet clothes, after washing machine, are getting dried in the winter, the air is lacking water, the wet clothes are rich in water. So the water molecules escape the clothes to balance. But again water is less heavy than cannabinoids so it's easier to escape of course!
I read all 28 pages and specially registered on the forum to share my experience, namely : the most powerful effect is achieved only at high temperatures, which was later confirmed by the post https://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporization-temperature-dependent-selection-of-effects.1637/post-1518429 with Volkan temperature tests.
I have always used microdoses, an average of 0.03 grams and almost always the same variety from my garden. Only in the evening, 3-4 times a week. In addition, I have kept a detailed record of each session for many years -date, time, quantity, method of use, physical condition before and after, emotional state before and after. I'm just obsessed with these statistics, you can write a medical doctorate on them. From this table, Excel easily produces graphs that visually show many parameters, one of which is the number of flowers consumed.
I started with burning in a glass tube. The effect is strong, the eyes are red, it is easy to catch overdose. I was puzzled by the harm of smoke and switched to conductive Ald Amaze Wow. I liked it, but I noticed that the effect became softer or something and the number of cups per session increased, and as a result, the consumption per evening.Then I switched to Dynavap, I was delighted, the effect is similar to a tube, the flow rate of flowers returned to the level of a tube. But the effect quickly became weaker and it coincided when I began to practice not a one-time strong heating, but a stepwise one, with an increase in the heating temperature. I.e., I started with a low temperature.
Then I bought an Xlux Roffu and was just delighted with the convenience and quality. But the effect did not get stronger. Then I bought a Chinese replica of TinyMight 2, purely to try it out. TM2 won me over. The purest taste, though it evaporated quickly and sometimes I got a strong blow. And I didn't understand why overdose sometimes happened.Until then, I purposefully decided to study the differences in effects at different temperatures. And that's when my eyes opened! TM2 in "9" mode with 0.04 grams just blew the roof off in a good way. There was no overdose, it was just like then, with a glass tube, only without smoke))) This is a temperature of 240-250 Celsius! To achieve this on Roffu, it was necessary to do 2.5 times 0.04 and still the effect will not be so interesting! Roffu gives a maximum of 220 degrees Celsius. Then I understood everything. The Dynavap worked well when I warmed it up a lot, as did the combustion tube. Temperature is the determining factor of the effect's strength !
And for a long time I wondered why they write everywhere that high temperatures are not needed for the effect, because my experience spoke about something else. Yes, after "9" on TM2, I saw brown flowers, but 1 cup of 0.04 was enough for me in the evening, I did not need to run and "catch up". The consumption of flowers is small, and this is very important where the topic is prosecuted by law.
Earlier it was written that combustion is so inspiring because of poisoning by by-products. I disagree. The effect that I get from TM2 on "9" is precisely a very strong high, before reaching the overdose door. Of course, there is an increasing tolerance and 0.04 grams - this is the first evening with flowers after a break of 3-4 days. And so it is weekly. I've been doing the experiments for a many week.
Tests with Volkano eloquently confirm my observations, the conclusions of the authors can be applied to any vaporizer on the market! Because :
1) Precisely because we do not know the exact temperature in our vapes, if you want to get the maximum effect, then you need to set the maximum temperature. The flower will be subjected to a temperature range up to the maximum value and you will have confidence that in this range there will be the temperatures we need for extraction. This is better than hoping that the temperature that the vape shows you is correct. It can be much smaller!
2) Previously, the idea of different "vape signatures" was discussed. In practice, all these signatures can be reduced to a system of "weak impact" with low temperature and "strong impact" with high temperature. Variations of this system are your current mood + the entourage effect.
3) Stepwise vaporization - active enzymes evaporate from flowers at any temperature, even low, and at the next stage there is simply nothing to evaporate.. I would separate "evaporation" and "evaporation with extraction".For example, at a temperature of 160 Celsius, you will get the evaporation of a large mass of substances from the staff, but you will not get THC, simply allowing it to evaporate in an inactive form. The issue of volatilization without decarboxylation was very well raised here. And I suspect that this is one of the reasons for the effectiveness of the high temperature.
4) The stepwise method may also seem effective because of the placebo principle -I felt the effect and the following sessions seem to raise more, although the effect from the first session is the strongest, it acts in waves with an interval - the first peak after 20 minutes, the second after 40 minutes and then after 80 minutes - the third peak, but weaker. You can confuse the effects of subsequent bowls with the effects of the first bowl, which only make themselves felt over time.
5) It was written here: "if you start at a temperature of 390 degrees Fahrenheit, you will destroy almost all these substances (low-temperature terpenes)."
But I think that the destruction described by you will not happen, the temperature in the layer of contact with the flower will heat the raw material from room temperature to the temperature of the heater and in this temperature range all low-temperature components will be released. Perhaps some of them will collapse, but given the fact that there is a constant suction of air, the released enzymes, being released, immediately evaporate into your mouth, cooling down and perhaps not having time to catastrophically collapse.
6) The question about the loss of 160 С compared to a lower temperature.To avoid the loss of simple evaporation of inactive substances, it is better to apply high temperature immediately - everything will evaporate and activate. At the same time, some of the substances, having passed their activation threshold, will collapse or react with other components, but still in this case we will get the smallest percentage of loss / combustion of the necessary substances
7) Earlier, @pakalolo wrote, "As a rule, in many designs, waiting before striking increases the vapor density upon impact. The steam is quite heavy and does not come out of the oven/heating channel until you inhale. In other words, it accumulates."
But there is a caveat. Accumulates, but what is its temperature and will its temperature rise to the desired release of compounds, or will it be DISPLACED by new hot air when blown? In my experience, the technique of high temperature without preheating is more effective, hot air hits the flower, instantly releasing and activating compounds without parasitic evaporation as with preheating.
8) @darbarikanada wrote: "(I suspect) I would have to smoke more cannabis at a lower temperature, so I would be as high as if I smoked less cannabis at higher temperatures."
Yes, it is. my long-term charts confirm this. Using temperatures at 220 ° C convective and 260 ° C conductive vaporizer requires 2 times more flowers than evaporation at 260 ° C powerful convective vaporizer.
9) The most effective vape (in theory), in my opinion, is one in which the contents are heated to a high temperature in a CONFINED SPACE and only after reaching a set temperature is supplied to the consumer. In this case, the losses caused by transients will be reduced to zero. Everything that evaporates is activated.
I have always used microdoses, an average of 0.03 grams and almost always the same variety from my garden. Only in the evening, 3-4 times a week. In addition, I have kept a detailed record of each session for many years -date, time, quantity, method of use, physical condition before and after, emotional state before and after. I'm just obsessed with these statistics, you can write a medical doctorate on them. From this table, Excel easily produces graphs that visually show many parameters, one of which is the number of flowers consumed.
I started with burning in a glass tube. The effect is strong, the eyes are red, it is easy to catch overdose. I was puzzled by the harm of smoke and switched to conductive Ald Amaze Wow. I liked it, but I noticed that the effect became softer or something and the number of cups per session increased, and as a result, the consumption per evening.Then I switched to Dynavap, I was delighted, the effect is similar to a tube, the flow rate of flowers returned to the level of a tube. But the effect quickly became weaker and it coincided when I began to practice not a one-time strong heating, but a stepwise one, with an increase in the heating temperature. I.e., I started with a low temperature.
Then I bought an Xlux Roffu and was just delighted with the convenience and quality. But the effect did not get stronger. Then I bought a Chinese replica of TinyMight 2, purely to try it out. TM2 won me over. The purest taste, though it evaporated quickly and sometimes I got a strong blow. And I didn't understand why overdose sometimes happened.Until then, I purposefully decided to study the differences in effects at different temperatures. And that's when my eyes opened! TM2 in "9" mode with 0.04 grams just blew the roof off in a good way. There was no overdose, it was just like then, with a glass tube, only without smoke))) This is a temperature of 240-250 Celsius! To achieve this on Roffu, it was necessary to do 2.5 times 0.04 and still the effect will not be so interesting! Roffu gives a maximum of 220 degrees Celsius. Then I understood everything. The Dynavap worked well when I warmed it up a lot, as did the combustion tube. Temperature is the determining factor of the effect's strength !
And for a long time I wondered why they write everywhere that high temperatures are not needed for the effect, because my experience spoke about something else. Yes, after "9" on TM2, I saw brown flowers, but 1 cup of 0.04 was enough for me in the evening, I did not need to run and "catch up". The consumption of flowers is small, and this is very important where the topic is prosecuted by law.
Earlier it was written that combustion is so inspiring because of poisoning by by-products. I disagree. The effect that I get from TM2 on "9" is precisely a very strong high, before reaching the overdose door. Of course, there is an increasing tolerance and 0.04 grams - this is the first evening with flowers after a break of 3-4 days. And so it is weekly. I've been doing the experiments for a many week.
Tests with Volkano eloquently confirm my observations, the conclusions of the authors can be applied to any vaporizer on the market! Because :
1) Precisely because we do not know the exact temperature in our vapes, if you want to get the maximum effect, then you need to set the maximum temperature. The flower will be subjected to a temperature range up to the maximum value and you will have confidence that in this range there will be the temperatures we need for extraction. This is better than hoping that the temperature that the vape shows you is correct. It can be much smaller!
2) Previously, the idea of different "vape signatures" was discussed. In practice, all these signatures can be reduced to a system of "weak impact" with low temperature and "strong impact" with high temperature. Variations of this system are your current mood + the entourage effect.
3) Stepwise vaporization - active enzymes evaporate from flowers at any temperature, even low, and at the next stage there is simply nothing to evaporate.. I would separate "evaporation" and "evaporation with extraction".For example, at a temperature of 160 Celsius, you will get the evaporation of a large mass of substances from the staff, but you will not get THC, simply allowing it to evaporate in an inactive form. The issue of volatilization without decarboxylation was very well raised here. And I suspect that this is one of the reasons for the effectiveness of the high temperature.
4) The stepwise method may also seem effective because of the placebo principle -I felt the effect and the following sessions seem to raise more, although the effect from the first session is the strongest, it acts in waves with an interval - the first peak after 20 minutes, the second after 40 minutes and then after 80 minutes - the third peak, but weaker. You can confuse the effects of subsequent bowls with the effects of the first bowl, which only make themselves felt over time.
5) It was written here: "if you start at a temperature of 390 degrees Fahrenheit, you will destroy almost all these substances (low-temperature terpenes)."
But I think that the destruction described by you will not happen, the temperature in the layer of contact with the flower will heat the raw material from room temperature to the temperature of the heater and in this temperature range all low-temperature components will be released. Perhaps some of them will collapse, but given the fact that there is a constant suction of air, the released enzymes, being released, immediately evaporate into your mouth, cooling down and perhaps not having time to catastrophically collapse.
6) The question about the loss of 160 С compared to a lower temperature.To avoid the loss of simple evaporation of inactive substances, it is better to apply high temperature immediately - everything will evaporate and activate. At the same time, some of the substances, having passed their activation threshold, will collapse or react with other components, but still in this case we will get the smallest percentage of loss / combustion of the necessary substances
7) Earlier, @pakalolo wrote, "As a rule, in many designs, waiting before striking increases the vapor density upon impact. The steam is quite heavy and does not come out of the oven/heating channel until you inhale. In other words, it accumulates."
But there is a caveat. Accumulates, but what is its temperature and will its temperature rise to the desired release of compounds, or will it be DISPLACED by new hot air when blown? In my experience, the technique of high temperature without preheating is more effective, hot air hits the flower, instantly releasing and activating compounds without parasitic evaporation as with preheating.
8) @darbarikanada wrote: "(I suspect) I would have to smoke more cannabis at a lower temperature, so I would be as high as if I smoked less cannabis at higher temperatures."
Yes, it is. my long-term charts confirm this. Using temperatures at 220 ° C convective and 260 ° C conductive vaporizer requires 2 times more flowers than evaporation at 260 ° C powerful convective vaporizer.
9) The most effective vape (in theory), in my opinion, is one in which the contents are heated to a high temperature in a CONFINED SPACE and only after reaching a set temperature is supplied to the consumer. In this case, the losses caused by transients will be reduced to zero. Everything that evaporates is activated.
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nice post.
my vape may meet what you describe in 9). my herb vial is a confined space with the draw tube resting on top of the vial. i let the vial + bud heat soak for 90 seconds after reaching vape temp - my current setting is 420°F (215°C) so 2 minutes from start.
the center of the herb in the vial is 50°F below the setpoint and rises to setpoint in the first 5 seconds of draw, and holds throughout the draw. heater maintains +/- 1°F of setpoint. then it drops back down between hits.
so, a draw can be a slow sweep up through the temps up to full activation. my typical load is about 0.1g
props for documenting your experiences.
my vape may meet what you describe in 9). my herb vial is a confined space with the draw tube resting on top of the vial. i let the vial + bud heat soak for 90 seconds after reaching vape temp - my current setting is 420°F (215°C) so 2 minutes from start.
the center of the herb in the vial is 50°F below the setpoint and rises to setpoint in the first 5 seconds of draw, and holds throughout the draw. heater maintains +/- 1°F of setpoint. then it drops back down between hits.
so, a draw can be a slow sweep up through the temps up to full activation. my typical load is about 0.1g
props for documenting your experiences.
This might be true for you, but I have often gotten full and satisfying effects without raising the temperature beyond 160°C. I don't keep notes all the time, but I have done beta testing for several manufacturers and when I do, I keep detailed and meticulous notes. I have also conducted many experiments at various temperatures and at 160°C and above I can get completely stoned and/or full pain relief. The differences are in flavour and speed, not effects.
I have no doubt that the effect can be obtained at 160 degrees, but at 260 under the same conditions what will be the impact? Spoiler - you may not be able to stand it)) Here, taking into account these conditions:
-natural tolerance
-frequency of use
- breaks between uses
-difference between vapes, in particular which one at 160 gives you sufficient effect?
-physical and emotional state
-flower variety, same batch?
-and so on.
Those. To reliably understand, it is necessary to conduct experiments under the same conditions. The same variety, the same year, the same vape, the same air temperature where you are, the same physical and emotional state, the same degree of hunger/satiety, the same time, and so on. And the most important thing is the FIRST DAY of admission after the break! Because For the second day now he requires supplements to compensate for tolerance. In my experience, at least 15%.
I definitely don’t argue that at 260 you can’t enjoy the taste. But I am absolutely sure that this will be a more powerful blow compared to 160. When I was just reading the first page of the forum, I already had a firm conviction in this, based on my statistics. And later I saw the test graphs for Volcano and smiled - yes, I already know that 230 Celsius is much more effective than 160.
I am not proving anything to anyone, I am simply stating a fact from my practice. And then everyone has the right to decide: to have a warehouse of flowers and be a human steam locomotive, or to be a practical minimalist ninja “hit and run”, but at the same time be triggered by the issue of possible benzene at 260...
In my opinion, the question comes down to “taste or effect”? Vaping culture is a kind of religion in which the meaning is often lost, and this meaning is the effect. Yes, I really love the taste, yes, I adore the smell of flowers, but it is always useful to ask yourself - why do it this way if there is no effect, if you are depriving yourself of achieving the maximum?
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cosimo
Well-Known Member
I agree, the same happens to me. It was even amazing how my last combustions resulted in shorter and less intenese effects than using my log vapes at low temp settings, not to mention the horrible burnt throat and icky toasty flavors.
@pakalolo Ideally, you want to find a golden mean, a compromise of taste/effect, perhaps you found it at 160. But for me this is unacceptable - instead of 0.04 on TM 2 at 240, I have to shove 0.09 at 220 into Roffu. For me this is uncomfortable.
Not surprising at all. If we delve into your situation now, I’m sure we’ll find the answer. What kind of vape, how hard did you inhale, did you inhale immediately or wait, what was in the bowl? Maybe the stems got caught. And so on. There are exceptions, but in general the physics of temperatures cannot be leapfrogged.
cosimo
Well-Known Member
Combustion, not vape, using glass pipes and fire from a Bic lighter, or joints (only weed, no tabaco). Weed, the same as I vape always.
Vape: Woodscents Aroma Log, Enano Og, Enano XL.
Weed from clone taken from a mum Ive kept for almost 10 years now. last 7 harvests done with the same drying times and flowering time.
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Sorry, I didn't read it carefully. I thought it was about unsuccessful vaping. But it’s strange that classic smoke didn’t give you the corresponding effect. As for vaping, compare vaping sessions with minimum and maximum temperatures. After all, this is what we're talking about
cosimo
Well-Known Member
my logs at higher temps with said weed dont get me higher, hits just taste and feel horrible in my throat... i dont gett the dizzyness i get from combustion , though.
i should clarify that there was a time when high temps or combustion did feel stronger, but that was during the first years transitioning into only vaporizing.
GetLeft
Well-Known Member
All these conditions lead to results that are quite subjective to the point that any observations based upon them end up being completely anecdotal. I'm no scientist and I do indeed heed anecdotal evidence when it's pertinent to my particular situation. But what you indicate here, with your test results or without them, is simply that results for individual users depend upon a bunch of variable data. Most of us have been guiding ourselves in our usage by these subjective and undeniable variables from our very first hits of bud. The variability is part of the experience
You are talking to someone who has preached the fuzziness of cannabis testing for about 15 years. Precision and repeatability are simply impossible. Having said that, you can try to reduce variability as much as you can. I have developed test protocols that take all of this into account, but I would be the last person to claim identical test hits.
In the interests of science, I have done exactly what you recommend on numerous occasions over the years. I have used all sorts of devices at all sorts of temperatures. I am pretty sure what you are describing is about the speed at which effects hit, which is indeed heavily influenced by temperature. Many medical users are intimately familiar with this relationship because for them, speedy relief is important.
All these conditions lead to results that are quite subjective to the point that any observations based upon them end up being completely anecdotal. I'm no scientist and I do indeed heed anecdotal evidence when it's pertinent to my particular situation. But what you indicate here, with your test results or without them, is simply that results for individual users depend upon a bunch of variable data. Most of us have been guiding ourselves in our usage by these subjective and undeniable variables from our very first hits of bud. The variability is part of the experience
Exactly.
How often do you vape? Maybe it's a matter of high tolerance?
Yes, testing effects is a tricky undertaking in terms of reliability, and when I say that the biggest impact is at high temperatures, I mean "in most cases." But there are many factors that determine variation in this effect. There is tolerance that will break any patterns, as well as your internal state “here and now” and so on. There are things that can prevent you from getting a “strong blow at high temperatures,” but collectively this is how it works. Because this is physics - if you take more volatile, active substances, you will get a stronger blow. But after this, the factors that I talk about above come into play.
If anyone wants to convince me otherwise, please provide convincing arguments. The “stepped approach of increasing temperature” is not a convincing argument (Why? wrote above), mainly due to the fact that vapers often mistake the ripple effect of the first bowl for the effect of subsequent bowls. which are essentially empty, so evaporated in the first session at medium temperature...
I tested this many times, leaving the contents of the bowl after the first session the next day (from different vapes). I was trying to understand - is there anything else in there?? Even when the contents are still green. So, there was NOTHING there! This surprised me, but I have to trust objective feedback.
But when you empty all these bowls in one evening at some intervals, increasing the temperature, you really often get the feeling of a “new wave of effect.” And here either it’s a placebo, or micro concentrations are really capable of accelerating an already high state.
The first conclusion was not the most correct in these experiments. I figured that if 1-2 hits are enough for complete evaporation, then it’s not worth bringing the contents of the bowl to a brown color. But the mistake was that I didn't take the temperature into account when doing those 1-2 hits on medium to light heat! I allowed the volatile substances to evaporate without entering their active form. The best practice would be 1-2 hits, but with maximum temperature. This will not only evaporate, but also activate the necessary compounds.
IMPORTANT disclaimer - my reasoning is valid specifically for microdoses! If your bowls are larger than 0.04, it would be very stupid on my part to say that there is nothing left in the bowl after 1-2 hits. But in my case it is EMPTY. The contents are fried to zero, rotating cyclonically inside the capsule under the influence of hot air.
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KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
The flaw in your reasoning about compounds "not entering their active form" is that the decarboxylation temperature of THC is much lower than you imagine.
Also temp-stepping does not necessarily mean leaving your unfinished bowl aside. That is often gross and as it "re-caramelizes" it tends to clog your screens and become much harder to clean it's a mess. When I temp step, it's all in the same session.
Furthermore cashing a bowl in one or two hits is the opposite of what I'm after. I enjoy the taste and the session so I want it to last as long as possible, or at the very least to a duration that reminds me when I used to smoke spliffs.
Again here a cultural difference because in Europe we lace our spliffs with tobacco so that they don't extinguish continuously. The side effect is that we can smoke them over a period of 10 minutes or more, often sharing them around, compared to 5 mins for a cig, and much less for the American way of smoking spliffs where apparently the norm is to go as quick as possible (if you don't it keeps extinguishing anyways...)
Also temp-stepping does not necessarily mean leaving your unfinished bowl aside. That is often gross and as it "re-caramelizes" it tends to clog your screens and become much harder to clean it's a mess. When I temp step, it's all in the same session.
Furthermore cashing a bowl in one or two hits is the opposite of what I'm after. I enjoy the taste and the session so I want it to last as long as possible, or at the very least to a duration that reminds me when I used to smoke spliffs.
Again here a cultural difference because in Europe we lace our spliffs with tobacco so that they don't extinguish continuously. The side effect is that we can smoke them over a period of 10 minutes or more, often sharing them around, compared to 5 mins for a cig, and much less for the American way of smoking spliffs where apparently the norm is to go as quick as possible (if you don't it keeps extinguishing anyways...)
gmocooties
Active Member
These are all really interesting points. At the end of the day, if the question is 'does exposing flower to higher temperatures release more active ingredients?' then the answer is most likely 'yes,' up to the point where temps are high enough to start degrading these actives (as in combustion). I'm of the opinion that the difference in 'effects' between hitting a bowl at 180°C versus 230°C is probably just the result of extracting more stuff. This assumes you hit that bowl once though - factoring in time; number, speed, and volume of inhalations; method of heating; type of vaporiser, and so forth makes the comparison much muddier.
Your point about 'volatilisation without decarboxylation' raises a few questions about the purported value of temp-stepping though! I wonder how significant this effect is? Given that THCA does begin to decarboxylate at fairly low temperatures (~110°C), by the time noticeable vapour starts to form, how much 'inactive' THC is actually being inhaled (and thereby wasted, essentially) at these lower temps? I'd love to know!
Re: the Storz & Bickel temp studies, do they only measure THC extraction? I haven't glanced over those figures for a while. It would be really interesting to see how other 'actives' (e.g. terpenes, minor cannabinoids) fare in low vs. high-temp environments. We know some components of cannabis begin to more readily vaporise at lower temperatures - particularly terpenes - so it would be interesting to see if there's a scenario where less of an active is present at 230°C versus say 170°C (as a result of degradation due to heat). I'd be pretty surprised if this occurred with any real significance, but who knows!
There is no mistake, you have superficially understood my theses. It doesn’t matter at what temperature the compounds are activated, but the important thing is that by increasing the temperature, you potentially increase the volume of useful activated compounds, reducing parasitic “evaporation without activation.”
Yes exactly
This is the main question! And the answer will be different for each evaporator. For example, I unpleasantly discovered that in Roffu, during the preheating of the heater, the upper metal surface on which the capsule with the contents lies also heats up. And these are all parasitic evaporations of the material without activation. By the way, this is not the case in TM2. The capsule remains cold while the vape reaches its temperature.
Just like everything is clear with conductive ones, why they are not so economical - while heating is in progress, some part has time to evaporate without decarboxylization. However, even after pre-warming, this process is in full swing - you inhale non-activated components. They smell delicious, but their effect does not match their potential strength.
It is for this reason that I do not yet see alternatives to a strong convective shock with high temperature.
By the way, has anyone tried to use pre-decaboxylated raw materials in vapes and compare this effect?
I think this scenario can be seen at a certain temperature level, higher than that at which a cigarette burns. Why higher? Yes, because the effect of a cigarette is quite strong, which means degradation there is not critical for the effect.
That's it for sure! I have repeatedly made sure that the low-temperature bowl will definitely not be the last, you constantly think about the insufficient high and in the end the total amount will be higher than if you made one, but high-temperature bowl. With high-temperature it’s like, “Oh, that’s it, I don’t need any more” - and you no longer think about the need for additives. Also, if you look closely at the graph, with the low temperature bowl the relative proportion of byproducts is quite large relative to the beneficial compounds and if you repeat the low temperature bowls you will end up with more byproducts.
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cosimo
Well-Known Member
every day , sometimes a session in the afternoon at about 330 pm , and definetly one or two in the evenings usually after dinner at about 8 pm. About half a dynavap tip every session. The fisrt session rachch day is as intense as the pone of the previous day.
Sativapo
Well-Known Member
Without having a seemingly scientific approach but almost 15 years of vaping since the vaporgenie,⁸ I'd say you don't lose the high temp sedative effects when you start a bit low like 205-210 °C ( can be lower for some) and finish the bowl at 230-240 flirting with some sort of precombustion as I do.
On the contrary if you start directly at that limit you lose the subtility of the terps which is a great part too and plays ball in the effects too.
Effects in the time dimension make a difference though. With temp stepping you get the trippy effects starting the bowl and the stoney ones finishing it. (You can do that within a few minutes) With a joint you're used to having them all immediately in a rush kind of blurred together also with some effects coming from combustion,tar etc that also kick a bit like a strong cigarette. Not even talking about the addiction of the tobacco mix if you're European.
I don't believe you lose something with lower temps to start, you're keeping the strongest less volatile goodies in there for a second round. Where would they go ? If you don't draw they stay inside. This studies don't study temp stepping but low temp only or high temp only.
It's this rush some non converted smokers miss when they first try. But 5 minutes after cashing a bowl they recognize they are pretty stoned comparably with minutes after a joint. ( If of course you prepare everything right and dial each vapes technique for them)
Trying to cash a bowl with one huge vape hit also gives a rush but you gotta have athletic iron vape lungs especially if you're aiming high temp effects directly.
On the contrary if you start directly at that limit you lose the subtility of the terps which is a great part too and plays ball in the effects too.
Effects in the time dimension make a difference though. With temp stepping you get the trippy effects starting the bowl and the stoney ones finishing it. (You can do that within a few minutes) With a joint you're used to having them all immediately in a rush kind of blurred together also with some effects coming from combustion,tar etc that also kick a bit like a strong cigarette. Not even talking about the addiction of the tobacco mix if you're European.
I don't believe you lose something with lower temps to start, you're keeping the strongest less volatile goodies in there for a second round. Where would they go ? If you don't draw they stay inside. This studies don't study temp stepping but low temp only or high temp only.
It's this rush some non converted smokers miss when they first try. But 5 minutes after cashing a bowl they recognize they are pretty stoned comparably with minutes after a joint. ( If of course you prepare everything right and dial each vapes technique for them)
Trying to cash a bowl with one huge vape hit also gives a rush but you gotta have athletic iron vape lungs especially if you're aiming high temp effects directly.
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