QWET question

[Deleted Member 1643]

Forgive, if already asked. Difficult to search.

Contemplating methods for quickly processing expected bump in supply. Any problem with using the same EtOH with successive batches of flowers? That is, extract 30g flowers normally with 500ml EtOH, drain, then use that same EtOH, still cold, with next 30g flowers, and so on. Seems like it should be okay, just yielding more concentrated initial extract before evaporating.

Suggestions on alternative methods welcome. Is there a thread on dry sift? (Didn't find.) Seems ideal for freeze-dried flowers.

 

[herbivore21]

Forgive, if already asked. Difficult to search.

Contemplating methods for quickly processing expected bump in supply. Any problem with using the same EtOH with successive batches of flowers? That is, extract 30g flowers normally with 500ml EtOH, drain, then use that same EtOH, still cold, with next 30g flowers, and so on. Seems like it should be okay, just yielding more concentrated initial extract before evaporating.

Suggestions on alternative methods welcome. Is there a thread on dry sift? (Didn't find.) Seems ideal for freeze-dried flowers.

No. A solvent can only dissolve so much of a given solute, depending on the properties of both the solute and solvent. After a run or two, your solvent will become super-saturated. What this means is that your solvent will have so much solute dissolved in it that it lacks the original solvent properties required to dissolve more of your solute (the resin in this case).

You should consider bubble running your material. Dry sifting is painstakingly slow on the labor side of the equation. PM me for the hookup on bubble tek bro What do you mean by 'freeze dried' though. Were these flowers actually dried in a commercial freeze dryer?

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Thanks! Understood, but 1:10, oil:EtOH shouldn't be saturated as it's a common ratio for winterizing BHO. In 500ml EtOH, should be able to dissolve at least 50g oil (or 500g extracted flower at 10% yield) - more than expected. Still, maybe overlooking practical considerations.

Read your bubble tek thread. Sounds like potentially great results, but steep start-up costs and learning curve. (Could use a larger freezer, though. )

No commercial freeze-dryer. Easy to freeze dry at home with readily available CaCl2 and any food storage vacuum gear.

Results are cool. Flowers look exactly like fresh, but no water. Maybe similar to fresh-frozen for bubble (headies become brittle and terpenes are preserved), but no need to keep frozen once dry. Also, no concern over mold. Can be re-hydrated to 60% RH for vaping.

Works well for QWET, but maybe too brittle for dry sift? What about rotating drum sifters? Seem messy, and maybe inferior results?

 

[herbivore21]

Thanks! Understood, but 1:10, oil:EtOH shouldn't be saturated as it's a common ratio for winterizing BHO. In 500ml EtOH, should be able to dissolve at least 50g oil (or 500g extracted flower at 10% yield) - more than expected. Still, maybe overlooking practical considerations.

Winterizing is a different ball game bro. You are not looking to wash the resin off of plant material and since all that you are dissolving is resin, you can allow long contact times with the ethanol to dissolve it all as the ethanol becomes saturated and is less effective for said dissolving.

You are talking about washing flowers with ethanol, yes? If so, I'd use 500ml of ethanol to wash 2 zips at maximum. IME, any greater amount of flower and you will start to get counter-productive results. If you use solution from washed flowers to wash another zip or two of flower, you're going to require much greater contact time with the flowers to retrieve the resin due to the reduced solvent action of your ethanol because of the changed composition as a result of the solute present (the resin that you've already washed into the ethanol). This increased contact time can also take undesirables out of your flower. It can also deposit some of your already dissolved resin inside the latest flowers that you run.

500ml will not work to extract 50g of oil from 500g of flowers bro. Please don't try that.

By the way, I'd not be using calcium chloride with flowers as a dessicant in that way. I've 'freeze dried' using inert dessicants like silica which can be useful, but I would not use something like calcium chloride that adds a foul taste to whatever it might get into contact with when treating flowers. Also large ice crystals can be a problem using these techniques in either case. This can be counter-productive for all kinds of extraction, rupturing the cell walls of the constituents within the plant matter.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Makes sense to step up gradually. Record yield with one, try two, see if it's double before proceeding. Would never risk so much.

Overall, very pleased with fresh freeze-drying results, both flavor and yield, on first QWET run. Second run has strong vegetal flavor, like wet-vaped flowers. Careful to keep flowers separated from CaCl2, like in the instructable linked above or lab dessicator. Never seen ice crystals, even after opening diy dessicator too soon.

Recommend trying with small quantity of fresh flowers. IME easier, faster and better (for subsequent extraction) than traditional cure.

 

[herbivore21]

Recommend trying with small quantity of fresh flowers. IME easier, faster and better (for subsequent extraction) than traditional cure.

I should have been clearer man, I already have tried all of this. I prefer curing with my own methods to this

The difference in your end results between curing and not curing will be less noticeable with QWET runs (purge loses a lot of the terps which account for the differences between cured and uncured resin), but it is unmistakable when you make hash where terps are off the charts by comparison.

I also do not always prefer freeze dried water hash to dried and cured water hash in all cases either.

I noticed you recommending 40ml of ethanol to dissolve 4g of BHO for winterization in another thread. 40ml, for reference is a standard shot glass filled to the very top with ethanol (as in as full as possible without overflowing, would not be possible to pick up the glass without spilling). It would be very, very difficult to fully dissolve that weight of resin into that volume of ethanol. You could never hope to achieve full solution of the resin fraction in a quick wash of flowers with ethanol if you only used 10ml for every presumed gram of resin in the flower.

Definitely go gradually if you do experiment. I have experimented with this and in my experience, you will need considerably more solvent to achieve sufficient efficiency in a quick wash extraction from flowers. IME, 250ml per zip should be considered a hard minimum (ideally I'd use more than that too, 300-400ml is not unreasonable), anything less is going to be a problem IME.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

By all means, point to your curing methods. Comparing fresh freeze-dried to hang-dried for a few days, then jarred until 60% RH for 2+ weeks. Freeze-drying wins easily, IMO.

Once got off-the-chart terps. Too much, itchy nose, watery eyes. No heat, picked up lots of moisture. Never repeated.

Used 1:10 rule-of-thumb successfully several times with no failures. Got it from Skunk Pharm originally. Could be concentrate wasn't fully purged to begin with, since it was early diy.

As you know, freeze-dried retains wet volume, doesn't shrink like cure above. Use whole buds with minimal handling throughout, so need about 500ml to cover 30g fluffy buds. Sounds like there might be room for at least one more round. Maybe 1.5L EtOH total for harvest, not bad. Cheaper and easier than new gear and skills, but also fun to try new things.

 

[herbivore21]

By all means, point to your curing methods. Comparing fresh freeze-dried to hang-dried for a few days, then jarred until 60% RH for 2+ weeks. Freeze-drying wins easily, IMO.

Have you ever made full melt man? If you have not, you cannot possibly have experienced the differences that I am discussing. As I said, a QWET purge removes a lot of the relevant actives in either case compared to the methods I am describing. The best QWET will never, ever be comparable to high end solventless concentrates.

By the way, we are not talking about the same processes from the look of it. I am talking about material that has been dried, then cured. The two processes are not the same. Running flower that was hang dried for a few days and then jarred for 2 weeks until 60% is not cured. In my view, that is well dried - but barely, if at all cured.

I am talking about discrete curing, performed separately in addition to initial drying. In my example, drying for 2 weeks has taken place, followed by a long curing period (months, not weeks) in a sealed vessel at RH > 60%. This is to facilitate microbial degradation of the non-active plant components leaving the resin glands intact. Resin isolated from flowers that have been cured like this is preferable to freeze dried in a many cases IME.

Rosin from flowers like this also generally > rosin from the same fresh flowers freeze dried and uncured IME, and I am talking from comparisons with the same material over long periods with many repetitions.

These differences will not be so noticeable with QWET, so I can understand why you are not agreeing with what I am saying - however I pointed this out in my original post.

YMMV depending on chemotypes that you are dealing with, in some cases the terp profile may be better when freeze-dried. All I'm saying is that mostly (not always, just mostly!), I find that cured resin as I describe is better than resin from uncured 'freeze dried' material as you describe above.

Once got off-the-chart terps. Too much, itchy nose, watery eyes. No heat, picked up lots of moisture. Never repeated.

Itchy nose and watering eyes can be caused by many other things than terps, residual water when dabbed will cause major eye watering and nose itching - which seems relevant from your account. Taste and smell alone are also not accurate indicators of overall terp concentration, as some kinds of terps have much lower thresholds for the smell to be noticed than others. Some terps are very smelly compared to others, and even a very low amount of one terp may smell much more noticeably than a very high quantity of another, less 'smelly' terp.

Use whole buds with minimal handling throughout, so need about 500ml to cover 30g fluffy buds. Sounds like there might be room for at least one more round.

Yup, that's what I was saying, IME 250ml per ~30g or so is as low as I would ever go.

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

Sadly, have not experienced full melt.

Just happen to have some flowers left that have been at 62% RH for six months. Will try a mini QWET to see if it's a significant improvement over freeze-dried. Not disagreeing - just like freeze-drying. Fast, easy, consistent results. With methods that require more time and effort, even better results might well be possible. Appreciate your advice!

 

[herbivore21]

Sadly, have not experienced full melt.

When you want to change that, you just let me know my friend, will be happy to assist

Just happen to have some flowers left that have been at 62% RH for six months. Will try a mini QWET to see if it's a significant improvement over freeze-dried.

As I said, you may not notice the difference with QWET so much as other solventless techniques. The difference seems to be in the terps, many of which are lost in a QWET purge vs rosin and especially bubble hash production. Still worth a shot if you have it there If you can rosin, try rosining a nug of each too. 6 months of cure can be a golden period for processing concentrates from flower in my experience. Some varieties really shine at this point in the cure.

Fast, easy, consistent results. With methods that require more time and effort, even better results might well be possible. Appreciate your advice!

Most definitely, cannot dispute the ease and speed of freeze drying in various ways. If I have material with a chemotype that in my experience, does not benefit so much from a cure, I would freeze dry it too

If you have a large volume to dry and not much space for other drying methods, then freeze drying would be especially appealing!

 

[Deleted Member 1643]

When you want to change that, you just let me know my friend, will be happy to assist

Thank you! Transitioning to photos and growing two plants at a time instead of one (new lamp). If this continues to go well, there will plenty of material for future adventures.

If you can rosin, try rosining a nug of each too.

That was the original plan. This is the the main cola of an especially beloved plant. Haven't tried rosin either. Just need to decide on a quick and dirty method. It should be no problem to extract whatever's left.