On perceptions of prejudice

[pakalolo]

I was paying a large part of my hard earned money to a guy who couldn't read and write! His 9 YO son really had written the note to me. My money, down a 'rent hole' to the benefit of a guy with less going for him than me?

I started this thread because it is off-topic for the thread where OF made his post, and I thought he might want to respond. I don't think he intended this to come off the way it did, or at least I hope not.

I just want to point out that there are many reasons for illiteracy, for example dyslexia. Some people struggle with this all their lives. It took my sister years to overcome her dyslexia, and all the while she was often treated with scorn by her classmates and even punished by clueless teachers. If this man managed to become a landlord despite illiteracy, good for him.

 

[lwien]

That's a very strange quote by OF.

This hits kinda close to home for me, being that both my twin boys were born very premature with mild cerebral palsy (hard to tell unless you watch their gait), as well as IQ's in the low 70's. They were always in special ed classes in school, but both are holding down jobs now. One of them is married and just had his second child (thank God my grandsons are ok and that this wasn't a genetic issue).

Both of them were not so severely retarded that they couldn't function and both have great social skills so in this sense, people meeting them for the first time would not recognize that there was anything amiss. But, when it comes to composing a letter or having to perform rudimentary math skills, they both struggle.

I brought them both up to NEVER use their disability as an excuse but to rather excel the most that they can by using their strengths to help overcome their weaknesses.

From the limited amount that I know of the situation with OF, it sounds like his landlord has been able to accomplish the same thing by elevating his position to in fact, be a landlord while relying on others, like his son, to do the things that he himself cannot do regardless if it's a disability or simply a lack of education.

Should this person be looked down upon? Personally, I would much rather give my hard earned money to someone who has "less going on for him than me", rather than someone who has more going on with him than me.

OF, can you please shed some light on this as I have always held you in high regard, and really wish to continue to do so.

 

[toros23]

Along the same line of thought, I frequently see well-known members posting pictures or sayings about other disabilities. Just do a quick search for "retard" in the "fuck the parkinson's" thread.. Really poor taste, IMO.

 

[lwien]

Along the same line of thought, I frequently see well-known members posting pictures or sayings about other disabilities. Just do a quick search for "retard" in the "fuck the parkinson's" thread.. Really poor taste, IMO.

Yeah, I've seen "short bus jokes" which used to piss me off being that my twins both rode that bus all through their school years, but I think it's unfair for me to expect others to have the same sensitivities as I. We all see things through the prism of our experiences but hopefully, threads like this will expand that prism just a bit more, eh, at least for the members here.

 

[OF]

Come on, look at the context, it has to do with investing rather than giving your money to someone who's done no real work for it. Not who can read or write English (he could do a bang up job with Italian no doubt, his kids, being born here learned English instead). He was acting intelligently with his money (or had) and was making an easy and happy life for his family and I was struggling, despite substantial advantages.

It's about buying a house, not paying rent.

He knew enough English to do the rental agreement, sign his name and all then, but didn't routinely read (but pretended to).

Quite the contrary, I respected him then (and now I guess), but it was a wake up call to me that intelligent financial actions are not necessarily related to being 'money smart', stocks, or any of the rest really.

For the record, I have been involved in education (on both ends as it were) most of my life. As were both my parents at different levels. No offense to anyone was meant, I'm frankly a bit miffed that the benefit of the doubt in that respect was not extended to me. I notice no PM.

OF

 

[Dreamerr]

I am going to read this thread later and comment but as a "crip" and a dyslexic I have a lot to say about this new over the top PC world.

 

[toros23]

I am going to read this thread later and comment but as a "crip" and a dyslexic I have a lot to say about this new over the top PC world.

An occasional comment is not a big deal IMO, but following it up with a photo of someone with Down's Syndrome is just pushing it too far for me. I am strongly against the wussification of the world, but sometimes this goes well beyond being a PC issue. Anyway, I have already said too much. I need to worry about my own stuff, I have my own issues for sure!

 

[djonkoman]

I am going to read this thread later and comment but as a "crip" and a dyslexic I have a lot to say about this new over the top PC world.

just watch out for the bloods

(just couldn't let that one slip by)

 

[lwien]

just watch out for the bloods

(just couldn't let that one slip by)

Ah..............Crips and Bloods. My hometown boys. Born and raised in LA.

As long as Dreamerr wears blue on her home turf, she's good to go.

 

[Dreamerr]

In all honesty I worked with crips and bloods and would switch my colors and said it depended on my mood. They were ok with me playing like that. You know how us woman are we change our minds a lot.

EDIT: I wanted to wait for someone else to post as an edit not all will see it. So I will just start to say a little. It is very difficult to know what is racist anymore. Most people don't mean evil when they say something. Comedians are afforded the ability to do it within reason all the time but not the general public even as a joke. I suppose the internet is not a good place for is as you don't know who is here and what there beliefs are and that is one reason we stay away from religion and politics. Now most of you will stay away from the PD thread because it is well very off color but look at is as comedians. I don't agree with all the posts and then I just don't push like. If they get bad at some point I might even make a comment but haven't yet. I suppose it is because I know the intention of the thread.

Now saying this last week when I made a post in the SSV thread I got a sick feeling in my stomach. IIRC it was because of a comment OF said in another thread. My comment was answering someone who said they always get herb in there want. It said Confucius says: Don't blow in your wand. To me it was funny and yet wise. I always felt Confucius sayings were wise. but something in me said, again off something I read in another thread, I wonder if this is considered raciest. I went to google and sure enough it was. I still don't get it and read all the reasons they had but I think it just is over the top at this point. In my mind Confucius say is very positive as it is wise comments of wisdom.

I will write more when I think of it but I think a health non judgmental debate is ok just like the business one on the ascent gibberish thread. I think they are both right if you read my latest comment.

 

[momofthegoons]

I'm going to step in here because I am the one who usually mods the Parkinson's thread.

The members that joke about "being retards" in the Parkinson's thread mean no harm. When the word first surfaced, I had conversation about it with a few of them. I am extremely sensitive to the misuse of the word "retard." I have a Down's Syndrome cousin and have worked with special needs children for years; specifically autistic.

What was realized during this discussion was that there was no intent to call others retarded. They felt they themselves were retarded. And as long as that is how it stayed... I was fine with it.

I have gone through that thread on many occasions and removed text and pictures that were over the line. But, as Dreamrr said, that is the one thread that these guys can really let loose. And it is cathartic to them. It takes a lot of strength to be able to laugh at your own weaknesses and disabilities.

If at any time someone feels something has gone over the line, all they have to do is either pm me, or hit the report button. Or not go into the thread.

Sorry.... a bit off topic. But I wanted to clarify a few things.

 

[Tweek]

Thanks for saying it more eloquently than I could, Mom. I am one of those people who frequents the Parkinsons thread and posts all sorts of unsavoury material. I am sorry that it offends some, but the solution is simple...don't read it?

I've been called all sorts of things in my lifetime: Retard, Idiot, Moron, Asshole, Ugly, Loser, Greasy Wop, Dirty Wop, not to mention everyone assuming I am in the mob because of my Italian heritage...I have even had a girlfriends parents not want her to date me because of my race. If I sat around all day and took it all personally, I would be in a mental hospital now.

Am I saying it's ok to say these things? Nope. Not when said with intended malice. But if said as a joke, without any intended harm, I laugh and laugh hard, because laughter is sometimes the only thing we got in this world to beat back the blues...it is also a great way to break down boundaries and forge new friendships. You have to be able to laugh at yourself and each other. But if someone tells me they are hurt, I apologize and make it right.

If you spend some time browsing YouTube, you will find more than one individual with down syndrome making funny videos of themselves. Why? Because they enjoy it...they enjoy making others laugh, even at their own expense. It's called comedy. Something we can all enjoy, regardless of our disabilities.

You can disagree all you want, but I refuse to allow anyone to classify me as insensitive or a jerk because of what I post in that thread.

FYI I grew up around mentally disabled patients, and they were some of my best friends in the world. So folks can sit on their high horse and pretend they have never cracked a joke about someone else, or laughed at a comedian poking fun at others, but we all know that is not the truth.

If we spent all our time worrying about offending others, Comedians and comedy would be banned and this would be a very bland and boring world to live in.

 

[kingofnull]

Am I saying it's ok to say these things? Nope. Not when said with intended malice. But if said as a joke, without any intended harm, I laugh and laugh hard, because laughter is sometimes the only thing we got in this world to beat back the blues...it is also a great way to break down boundaries and forge new friendships. You have to be able to laugh at yourself and each other. But if someone tells me they are hurt, I apologize and make it right.

If you spend some time browsing YouTube, you will find more than one individual with down syndrome making funny videos of themselves. Why? Because they enjoy it...they enjoy making others laugh, even at their own expense. It's called comedy. Something we can all enjoy, regardless of our disabilities.

You can disagree all you want, but I refuse to allow anyone to classify me as insensitive or a jerk because of what I post in that thread.

Well said, ya greasy wop!

 

[lwien]

For the record, there really hasn't been anything in that PD thread that has bothered me in the least. Now granted, I haven't read each and every post, and only visit there every once in awhile, but I think the gist of all this needs to be taken in context. Within that PD thread, considering the intent and what is going on there, the cathartic healing that takes place in that thread through the use of humor (which is the intent of that thread), in my opinion, takes precedence over the concern that some may feel offended.

There was a great line in the movie,Schindler's List, that I'll never forget: "It's all in the presentation". Context is sooo important in this regard, eh?

Now outside of that thread, even in comedy situations, as I said previously, short-bus jokes bother me. The irritation when I hear jokes like that isn't something that I can really control. It just brings up very vivid pictures of my boys getting on that bus every morning to go to school and what they had to endure in school regarding the jokes made about them for having to ride that bus. Oh, I've had countless talks about them regarding their self-esteem, but overtime, shit like that takes it's toll, so it's a sensitivity that I struggle with. One voice in my head says "let it go", it's just a joke, but the other voice throws up a picture of my young, school aged boys and what they had and have to endure.

It's not anger that I feel, but rather a feeling of fingernails on a chalk board. Not something that I can really control. The only thing that I can control is my reaction to it, but the feelings that come on just............come on. The word, "retard" does the same thing to me, simply because that word was used as a weapon against them. Now granted, when I hear that word now, it is not being used in that way, but at one time it was, so yeah, that too kinda grabs my attention, but typically I'll just let that one go as well with no one knowing what is going on in my head.

Like I said, I really don't have control over the feelings that these things bring up, but the control I DO have is how I react to them.

Words have power. They have the power to heal, to inspire, to make us laugh, to make us think, to make us feel good, too make us feel sad, to make us feel happy, and yes, to make us hurt, and sometimes, they can do all of the above at the same time.

 

[Tweek]

I was teased alot as a kid. I know the feeling of walking that gauntlet on the school bus. To make matters worse, I had to deal with kids wanting to beat my ass at school, and my dad wanting to beat my ass at home. I learned quickly that humour was one of the few things that would help me get through it all, and that included developing a greater sense of humour about the insults being thrown my way.

Nothing is more disarming to a bully, than when you laugh...and their intent was to make you cry.

Words only have the power you give them.

Edit: I grew up on this...I am sure many could find reasons to be offended...but to me, it's classic comedy at its finest:

EDit#2: And since this was mainly a thread on illiteracy, I will chime in that my grandfather could not read or even sign his name (used an x)...but he grew the finest garden you've ever seen. Actually, he had 4 he was taking care of before he died. Talented indeed regardless of his education.

 

[satyrday]

... the "fuck the parkinson's" thread.. Really poor taste, IMO.

That about sums it up... true.

The PD thread really got traction when it became about making fun of the very serious disease from which the OP mvapes suffers. Showing that the disease is serious, but also not so serious, thank God, too. Now it's often about saying the most asinine, embarrassing, or revealing thing possible without dying of shame or ridicule. That is cathartic! (...for some ...for me it's just another day in the institution with no cure in sight)

It's just for laughs, and when at our own expense all the better. Emotionally "retarded" can be a tonic vs. always being too aware of the consequences and crippled by self-consciousness (that's more my real life).

 

[Vicki]

Nothing is more disarming to a bully, than when you laugh...and their intent was to make you cry.

Words only have the power you give them.

Exactly. Not reacting gets them everytime.

I will chime in that my grandfather could not read or even sign his name (used an x)....

I worry about this happening to kids today. They weren't even teaching cursive in my daughter's elementary school when we pulled her out. They said they "didn't have time." Bullshit! They had time to teach us when I was growing up. How are people going to sign contracts (legal documents,etc.) if they don't know cursive? An "X?" Pitiful.

 

[lwien]

Just gotta add one more thing to this conversation.

"Some of my best friends are Jewish"
"My cousin has Downs Syndrome"
"I work with the mentally ill"
"I was bullied in school"
etc etc etc....

All of these experiences, no doubt, increases empathy, but in reality, you really don't know what it's like unless you really walk in their shoes.

As an example, Tweek, you mention that you were bullied in school and I think it was in response to my statements about how my boys were bullied in school. The big difference is that you didn't have the diminished capacity of having an IQ in the low 70's, and therefore, you had the intellect to deal with these situations a bit differently. It really is hard to walk in someone else's shoes unless you're truly dealing with the same dynamics.

Let me put it another way, by bringing a real situation. When my boys were about 6 years old, maybe a bit younger or older, don't remember, but there was this bully that lived in our apartment building. One day, I walked outside, and that kid had his hands around the throat of one of my sons, chocking him. Rather than my boy fighting back, he just stood there, like a rag doll, and let it happen. He didn't even try to get away. It was really a shocking thing to see and brought home the challenges that these kids are going to have growing up.

Fast forward to high school. School bully threw a lit firecracker down the shirt of one of my sons. Luckily, he was able to get it out before it blew, but what really warmed the cockles of my heart was that his twin brother jumped in to protect him and beat the shit out of that guy.

Anyway, it's really hard to equate how you would react to a situation unless the dynamics are the same. As an example, having some of your "best friends that are black", is a far cry from actually being black and what that experience really means, and how that changes the prism in which you view the world.

 

[toros23]

The only issue I have is associating the word "retarded" with the thought of someone being stupid. Then taking it even further to drive the point home posting pictures of people with Down's Syndrome. I don't know any people with disabilities who want to be (or deserve to be) associated with stupid no matter how funny/comical some think it might be.

 

[pakalolo]

This is an interesting and healthy discussion. I've altered the thread title to better reflect the discussion that has evolved. It also describes the OP better because there was never any intent to portray OF as prejudiced in the slightest. Rather, I meant it to be an opportunity to clear up what I felt was an inadvertent bad impression that he might be giving some, such (perhaps overly-sensitive) people like me. In other words, perception rather than intention.

Because of my experiences with my sister, I bristle when people treat illiteracy as stupidity, because that is a false equivalence. I never thought OF was doing that intentionally. I just want to clear that up.

 

[satyrday]

The only issue I have is associating the word "retarded" with the thought of someone being stupid. Then taking it even further to drive the point home posting pictures of people with Down's Syndrome. I don't know any people with disabilities who want to be (or deserve to be) associated with stupid no matter how funny/comical some think it might be.

I have worried in the past that an image I posted of real people associated with a farcical comment of mine will hurt an actual person. This wasn't a Downs Syndrome post in my case, but the point is the same. I would hate to have my picture out there with a bunch of idiocy associated with it. I try now to get pictures that are not of real people just doing normal things.

 

[toros23]

I have worried in the past that an image I posted of real people associated with a farcical comment of mine will hurt an actual person. This wasn't a Downs Syndrome post in my case, but the point is the same. I would hate to have my picture out there with a bunch of idiocy associated with it. I try now to get pictures that are not of real people just doing normal things.

I think it is all about context.. If you are talking about being silly or goofy, then fine.. But if the context is all about being stupid, then I think there are better ways to get a laugh or make an attempt to fit in. Of course, everyone has their own thresholds for this sort of thing and I don't mind being in the minority here.

 

[satyrday]

I think it is all about context.. If you are talking about being silly or goofy, then fine.. But if the context is all about being stupid, then I think there are better ways to get a laugh or make an attempt to fit in. Of course, everyone has their own thresholds for this sort of thing and I don't mind being in the minority here.

I meant for a laugh of course. But even then I don't like to do it at the expense of a real person whose picture just happens to be on the internet, particularly if they are just caught in an innocent moment (I have been guilty of that though).

 

[Dreamerr]

I don't like all the big video files on the PD thread....why cause if I watch them I get cursed out for using bandwidth from my son. Is there some off color stuff that I don't like of course but I know the intention. Do I agree with the sanitizing of this society NO. It is at the point of ridiculous. If my son was bullied and beat up he wouldn't be the self entitled jerk that he is. I am mad in a way that I moved to a state that puts you in jail for scuffles. If I was back where I used to live he would have had his ass kicked enough for him to shut is big mouth. I don't know what is right or wrong but most of us were beat when we were kids and we all grew up fine some with issues some with none. It isn't that I think we should have been hit but now the kids say haha you can't touch me cause I will call the cops and they act the way they want. I have been on this thread for I think an hour and I can't tell you how many times the kid complained that I am using "his" internet.

 

[djonkoman]

I find it strange you can see being bullied as something positive...
I was bullied, and ion my case there definatrly wewre no scuffles, that was the frustration. they were always taunting at an arm's reach, and ticking and jumping out of reach. and then the teachers blaming me saying I should ignore them, well, easier said than done once my anger was ignited...
only once in an adrenalinfueled moment I managed to catch up with one and get just within striking distance and can deal one punch on the ear. all other times they were always unreachable, annoying cowards.

I don't really blame them though, the worst bully transferred from another school, where he was bullied(I knew because one of my familymembers was teacher there), and all others were just followers, I don't like followerts but unfortunatly the world has way too much of them. (this was all in elementary, the last year the biggest bully had an argument with the teacher and left school, and that last year was great, everyone got along with everyone)