Gathering thoughts on a concept for a future vaporizer.

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
This concept will remain in the notebook for the foreseeable future, no time to develop it this year. But, I like to let my ideas brew for a good long time, so that's okay with me. I feel like it'd be a good idea to get some outside perspectives on this concept before I let it evolve any further. I'm really on the fence as to whether or not it's good...or trash.

I'm not too experienced with desktops, and while I see this as a portable desktop... It's still out of my realm. I could use a little help to figure out if this is even a realistic concept to begin with.

I don't have a super clear idea of what the end...thing... might look like, but I have the concept.

Here is a little drawing for reference, I'll explain what's going on below.

20220519-233129.jpg


Here are some very rough possible vaporizer shapes. There are endless directions you could go, so this part is not really important, it's just an example.

The thing I like about this shape is that the herb chamber is loaded like a traditional pipe, which I find convenient. I think a WPA version would be a must.

20220519-233056.jpg


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The concept is to design a vaporizer that uses already available hotplates (designed for cooking, electrical soldering, lab work, etc.) as a source of heat. The hotplate would heat soak small heat batteries that are placed on top. These heat batteries are then moved from the hotplate and loaded into the vaporizer where the stored heat is used as a convection heat source.

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The idea of "stored heat" is nothing new, the couch log and other vaporizers with a large heat store can be decoupled from their electrical cords to be used in a semi-portable way. There are also butane heated vapes like the elev8r that use stored heat for fully portable use.

I also think this is similar to a coil driven wand vape in that they also decouple the heater from the herb chamber.

Where my concept differs, I think, is the use of the hotplate.

So, why hotplate? In short, versatility. You have the option of using ANY hotplate that you can find, electric, gas, or charcoal. For stoves that do not have a smooth heated surface (butane stoves, for example), an aluminum or copper plate would be available for the heat batteries to sit on.

Here are just a few interesting options available.

On the electric front, I like these micro lab grade hotplates. These are built like tanks, UL certified, with fairly accurate analog temperature control. I like this one for its small size, with a 3.5" diameter plate. These are $300 new, but come up all the time on Ebay in the $50-$100 range. You'll find many similar lab grade hot plates out there that would be well suited. Some of the vintage ones look very cool.

g008099-large.jpg


Want something a bit more rustic?

The tea world is full of cool looking small stoves to be used with iron/clay kettles.

O1-CN01sis-Jf01ca-Akdnp-I9r-2538223616.jpg


Want something smaller, with USB C, battery bank compatible, and digital temperature control?

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For those of you with PID control boxes already, you can get hotplates that are compatible.

For gas, something like this would be neat.

DSC09982.jpg


Or for something super minimalist, charcoal.

charcoalburner.jpg


Okay, but still want accurate temperature monitoring with these analog heat sources? Use a mini surface thermometer directly on the hotplate.

676C.jpg


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Advantages of the hotplate concept:

You can heat multiple heat batteries at the same time. By swapping out the heat battery every couple hits, you essentially have an endless supply of heat.

By using commercially available hotplates you get to take advantage of the economy of scale. Better and safer technology for cheaper.

A flat plate against a flat heat battery provides good heat conduction. Gravity keeps them in contact. No issues with different coefficients of thermal expansion.

The heat batteries remain at a constant temperature on the hotplate until you are ready to use them.

Great for groups, where everyone could have their own loaded herb chambers, but share a central hotplate with a handful of heat batteries.

Great for slower and longer sessions or heavy usage.

If using a butane heat source with a central hot spot, the temperature difference from the center of the hotplate to the edge could be used to our advantage. Heat batteries near the center would be hotter, and thus could be used for instant temp stepping.

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Now, the downsides. I'm sure there are many, but these are the obvious ones...

This is not the most economical way to use heat energy.

A coil driven wand vape (especially those with enclosed coils), uses most of the heat from the coil to heat the heater. A hotplate, on the other hand, wastes a lot of heat.

I don't think having a searing hot hotplate in your vape lounge is the safest thing. You would need to treat this thing as you would any other cooking stove, and I personally wouldn't feel comfortable leaving it on unattended.

Heat up time for the hotplate could be slow if using electric... or especially with charcoal, ha!

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So, what about a torch?

While it would certainly be possible, temperature control would require some practice.

I also think that there are better ways to make vaporizer if you want to only heat it with a torch.

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So, is this concept just pure madness setting in? Have I been in the workshop for too long?

If it seems like a decent concept, I'll just use this thread as a way to brainstorm and tease out the direction of where it could go. Maybe in a few years something will come of it.
 

Stu

Maconheiro
Staff member
It's certainly an interesting design. It reminds me a bit of the Mobius Flower Pot which used a butane camping stove as its heat source.


I don't know if it would have a wide appeal, but it sounds like something that vapeheads like us would have fun with.

:peace:
 

gordontreeman

Everythings coming up Milhouse!
Looking at your last set of sketches, is the idea that you place the heated battery onto some sort of glass screen that separates the herb from the heater but still allows the air to flow through?

It seems cool from a ritual standpoint, and I like the aesthetics of some of the heating options (charcoal or just a fire while camping would be neat). The one thing I don’t like with all of these “store a lot of heat” vaporizer solutions—enails, glass balls, et cet—is that they aren’t amenable to temp stepping at all. I guess you could buy a bunch of hot plates and batteries, but from a practical pov that might hurt it. I guess that’s sort of true with most desktops though—they need to hear soak before use and can’t really instantly adjust temp.
 

Squidge

Butane powered
The main issue I see with the hot plate is people inadvertently burning themselves - coz people get clumsy when they're baked! Lol

Therefore, the hot plate would need to be induction, with the "stones" being induction compatible. As with saucepans, being compatible wouldn't preclude you from using a different heat source when needed.

It also means that people could just buy an induction heater/stove/ mini hob themselves in their home country - which would reduce your manufacturing costs/need to have different voltages for different parts of the world/adhering to various safety regulations.

Not sure about the rest as it's early and I haven't had my breakfast yet. 😉
 

MoltenTiger

Well-Known Member
Interesting idea.

The thing I don't like about the stored heat vaping mechanic is that they often cool too quickly and they are not as convenient - the hot surface is usually completely uninsulated and exposed, preventing easy or at least care free handling.

Not many active heaters keep up with what I'm achieving down here though.

I like this idea, I think it would offer a pleasant user experience and if the classified thermal mass is tweaked such that up to a minute of fast toking won't dimish it's critical heat exchange... it could be a hot item. It's nice and simple, versatile, practical. I see some appeal and plenty of potential.
 

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@Stu , Whoa! That's a new one for me, very cool. Very similar concept. Seemed like the couple people who got one raved about it... but.. didn't seem to catch on. Perhaps evidence of the fact that this style of vaporizer may not have mass appeal. I had the same hunch myself.

@gordontreeman That's prettt much the idea, yep. And for temp stepping, It's possible that the heat batteries could be positioned near the edge of the hotplate, where it's cooler...and also in the center, where it's hotter. But..this would require a bit of trial and error to learn your hotplate. I wonder if little ceramic discs could be used as insulators underneith each heat battery.. like mini coasters. The thickness of the insulator would determine the temperature of the heat battery. hahah... hmm, maybe too many little pieces... we're going to have a chess board here soon.

@Squidge You could totally use induction cooktops. And being able to purchase the hotplate in your home country is definitely part of the appeal to me.

@MoltenTiger The heat battery idea I have in mind would allow for adding or subtracting mass. So.. theoretically you could add mass for more heat storage, at the expense of a longer heat up. I'm with you in the burn potential, haha. You wouldn't want to drop a heat battery on the carpet...

Thanks for the comments everyone! It's so fun to explore this idea here. It's definitely helping.
 

danjens

Farmer of Flower. Friend of Fungus
I’m liking this idea a lot, Dan. Could be a very unique and ritualistic desktop.

I wondering if it would be possible to design a heat plate powered by a pid coil?
This would give user greater pretty dialed temp control while utilizing equipment many vapor enthusiasts already posses and potentially reducing fire hazards of open flames.
 

Vaporware

Well-Known Member
Cool idea! I like the design, and I like that it’s something you could heat in a lot of different ways. That’s something I keep coming back to in some of my own concepts too. :)

I do agree that there are downsides to the hotplate or similar things as heaters, but they could work for a lot of people. Anyone with the skills could also make a more appropriately sized heater and even build in some safety features, so those downsides aren’t insurmountable.

I have some ideas of what could go in that battery, but I’ll be interested to see what you came up with if/when you get around to making it!

I’ll definitely want to try one too, so I guess I’ll just start the line right here… :rofl:
 

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@danjens , There are PID powered hotplates available out there.

You can also get flat coils in the same size range as the spiral, cylinder shaped, coils. A flat coil housed inside of a sturdy base would essentially give you a compact PID powered hotplate.

@Vaporware , Yeah... size is a concern. Obviously you don't really want a 6" diameter hotplate for heating one small heat battery.... but there does seem to be a number of small hotplates out there designed soldering work.

This is an example. The tiny pot would be suitable for heating a single heat battery.

3.jpg
 

invertedisdead

OG Baller
Manufacturer
The main issue I see is you’re going to have a very small contact area between the hot plate and your battery. To improve that you’d need to raise the materials thermal conductivity, but doing so would cause your stored heat to dissipate rapidly.

Personally I think the hot plate as a heat source is probably a bit over the top. See Vapolaborium thread. But I know how it can be challenging to post these kinds of concepts for feedback, so I really appreciate you putting yourself out there.
 

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@invertedisdead I had thought about that as well, and calculated that to match the exact same area of contact for a 16mm ID coil with a 14mm hieght, you'd need a flat circle with a diameter of 30mm. For a 20mm ID coil with 16mm hieght, you'd need a 35mm diameter circle.

This is the size range I'd be shooting for I guess.

On the thermal conductivity front, the material I have in mind has high thermal conductivity.

Oh my.... that vapolaborium device is insane, hahah! Perhaps that's what's waiting for me at the end of this road...

And, I really appreciate the outside perspective.. I think it's important to get em' now, while the concept is still able to morph.... you know...like morph itself right into the garbage can, hahah.
 

RustyOldNail

SEARCH for the treasure...
Been contemplating buying a real hot plate. Wondering if anyone makes one that can use an external PID, as I own two, an Auber, and MaxVapor. Did a quick google, but all I can find are all the ones that have their own built in PID.
 

seriousTone

Well-Known Member
Wow now these are truly exciting times, when a new Morwood thred/project is posted!

This thing sounds pretty awesome to me. I don't know much about the practicality of the heat batteries but they sound super satisfying and remind me of using an old weight scale.

I don't see how they're any less practical than most other sources of heat on second thought though. Kind of like having a super portable and better ergonomically log vape- always ready.



The shape of the stem is awesome as well, hope that doesn't change much.

This is like my dream come true of owning one of Dan's pipes but possibly even better.

The other shape pipe that could work really well with this thermal heat battery thing, in my opinion, is your Opium pipe -- LOVE that thing.
 
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Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@RustyOldNail Try a search for XLR rosin press heater blocks. These are essentially a cartridge heater with XLR plug mounted in an aluminum block. You could probably custom order an aluminum heater block and pair it with a quality cartridge heater and connector. Try wattlow for cartridge heaters.

@danjens You could use a 35mm or larger flat coil I suppose, but mounting it into a sturdy base would require a diy solution. If you went this route, the only difference between the hotplate concept, and a wandvape like the B1 is the cordless operation. If that's the only advantage... the entire concept looks less appealing I think.

I'm starting to realize that what I like most is the idea of multiple heat batteries in rotation, and the more analog/minimalist hotplates. hmmm.

@xtraclipsforxtrashit Yes! It's totally like using those little weights, haha.
 

seriousTone

Well-Known Member
For sure, I can't see this thing being used with anything less (looks wise) than that terracotta colored hotplates like the second one you posted.

But I guess that would be the thing about this desktop, each person could choose their own hotplate. In a way that is another form of customization. Want it charcoal powered - go on and get one then.
 

Zuhdj

Charles Mingus
I'd grab one but I think it'd be a good idea to consider a large induction heater as the heat source. I'd use a hot plate though. My main thing here is that you'd want to ensure there's turbulence in the heater air path or else laminar flow would prevent adequate heating of the airstream.
 
Zuhdj,

RxPlorer

Well-Known Member
I'd grab one but I think it'd be a good idea to consider a large induction heater as the heat source. I'd use a hot plate though. My main thing here is that you'd want to ensure there's turbulence in the heater air path or else laminar flow would prevent adequate heating of the airstream.
Do you mean that the hot plate vs. induction has something to do with laminar flow? Or are those thoughts unrelated?
 
RxPlorer,

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
But I guess that would be the thing about this desktop, each person could choose their own hotplate. In a way that is another form of customization. Want it charcoal powered - go on and get one then.

I think that's one of the main advantages.

Also, a hotplate is a one-size-fits all approach to heating. Heat batteries could likely be made from glass, metals, ruby, ceramics... in all different sizes. Manufacturing an object with a simple flat base to contact a hotplate is much easier than manufacturing an object that requires an accurate outside diameter to fit snugly to a matching heater coil.

I think I like the smaller, self contained, heat batteries with small handles. I feel like once they're placed on top of the herb chamber you can relax with one handed vape operation... which I like..

But... a wand style heat battery is certainly possible. Here's an example of what that might look like. I think it sort of defeats the portability factor of smaller heat batteries, and the handle would add to the cost... reducing the appeal of having multiple heat batteries in rotation.... but it's an option.

d998055ef494f90ad633615a26fecd05-ab-initio-party-crafts.jpg
 

invertedisdead

OG Baller
Manufacturer
I think that's one of the main advantages.

Also, a hotplate is a one-size-fits all approach to heating. Heat batteries could likely be made from glass, metals, ruby, ceramics... in all different sizes. Manufacturing an object with a simple flat base to contact a hotplate is much easier than manufacturing an object that requires an accurate outside diameter to fit snugly to a matching heater coil.

I think I like the smaller, self contained, heat batteries with small handles. I feel like once they're placed on top of the herb chamber you can relax with one handed vape operation... which I like..

But... a wand style heat battery is certainly possible. Here's an example of what that might look like. I think it sort of defeats the portability factor of smaller heat batteries, and the handle would add to the cost... reducing the appeal of having multiple heat batteries in rotation.... but it's an option.

d998055ef494f90ad633615a26fecd05-ab-initio-party-crafts.jpg

I posted one of my vapor wands in the DIY section, somewhat inspired by the Mobius Flowerpot and old school quartz glow-wands. A few people made them and seemed to really like them, but overall it didn’t get too much interest. I think any stored heat vape without any temperature indication is going to be a harder sell going forward. The hot plate is a clever off the shelf remedy to that, though I think it comes at a bit higher investment and a decrease in portability compared to torch power.

I even made a way to heat my wand electrically, which is really cool - but I do struggle sometimes philosophically with the stored heat vape concept, because at some point it seems to be simpler to just heat directly.




Ever consider something more Vapman style? The hot plate is putting you in “Station” territory, could have essentially on demand conduction. Well maybe I better start my own thread... 😂 just kidding!
 

Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@invertedisdead Great points. Ultimately you need to compare against what else is out there. Coil driven wand vapes are quite elegant. I think for desktop plug-in use, that design is hard to beat.

If using a torch, I do agree that you need temperature sensing incorporated into the heater itself, like a dynavap, for example. For whatever reason I am not attracted to the idea of making this a torch driven thing. I think other vapes have that space covered.

For hotplate, knowing the temp of the plate, I think, would be adequate. Essentially it's exactly the same as knowing the temp of a PID driven coil.

The station and vapman are already so cool... not sure how I could ever improve on that design!
 

invertedisdead

OG Baller
Manufacturer
@invertedisdead Great points. Ultimately you need to compare against what else is out there. Coil driven wand vapes are quite elegant. I think for desktop plug-in use, that design is hard to beat.

If using a torch, I do agree that you need temperature sensing incorporated into the heater itself, like a dynavap, for example. For whatever reason I am not attracted to the idea of making this a torch driven thing. I think other vapes have that space covered.

For hotplate, knowing the temp of the plate, I think, would be adequate. Essentially it's exactly the same as knowing the temp of a PID driven coil.

The station and vapman are already so cool... not sure how I could ever improve on that design!

Yeah I forgot the station is coming back anyways, it must have been the drawing in your opening post, with the two devices on the hot plate with the analog dial that reminded of that setup.

I was thinking from our dry sift musings in the convection thread that a hash vape would be kind of cool, and the hot plate (hot knife 😅 ) could be an intriguing heat source for something like that.

I like that you have a handle incorporated as I think it’s essential for a heat-then-hit device. Some of them don’t and can be kind of clunky/quirky to use.
 

seriousTone

Well-Known Member
I think that's one of the main advantages.

Also, a hotplate is a one-size-fits all approach to heating. Heat batteries could likely be made from glass, metals, ruby, ceramics... in all different sizes. Manufacturing an object with a simple flat base to contact a hotplate is much easier than manufacturing an object that requires an accurate outside diameter to fit snugly to a matching heater coil.

I think I like the smaller, self contained, heat batteries with small handles. I feel like once they're placed on top of the herb chamber you can relax with one handed vape operation... which I like..

But... a wand style heat battery is certainly possible. Here's an example of what that might look like. I think it sort of defeats the portability factor of smaller heat batteries, and the handle would add to the cost... reducing the appeal of having multiple heat batteries in rotation.... but it's an option.

d998055ef494f90ad633615a26fecd05-ab-initio-party-crafts.jpg
I would agree with you, the self contained heat batteries sounds like the better (easier, more unique?) way to go...and again, who doesn't like picking up and setting down little weights...

A couple thoughts I've had so far - I'm not really worried about the hotplate sitting around as people already have vapes such as the hotrod that have a screaming hot heat injector within touching distance.

What you say about the batteries being made from different materials is very interesting as well - another form of customization - as I know in the dabbing world some prefer quartz vs sapphire vs ceramic vs titanium etc.

Another thing that would be cool is to have little herb pods that could be pre filled and ready to pop into the pipe.

The little magnetic temperature dials you posted are super interesting as well and a nice touch.

I wouldn't think temp stepping would be a problem with multiple batteries.
Set your batteries on the hotplate, heat to lowest temp, hit, turn hotplate up and let next battery increase to new temperature, etc.

I know you said you're not interested in a torch device - but a thought crossed my mind and I don't know if it would even work or not but - I wonder if as an add on for those interested in it, instead of the glass shield, a metallic (copper?) one could be utilized that could be heated with a torch that would transfer to the battery in order to keep it at temp.
Knowing what temp you're at is a whole other thing but it could just be up to the user to figure out just by feel.
But then again that could create more problems with any o rings etc.
I'm not really interested in that but just saying.

The thought of this thing is so exciting to me. I love the idea of bringing back hitting a pipe essentially, but just healthier.
 
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Dan Morrison

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
@invertedisdead The hash vape idea is awesome. I could see one of these heat batteries being made of ruby or sapphire... just a solid cylindrical puck. The puck is heat soaked on the hotplate and then dropped directly onto a dab of hash that is loaded into a glass chambered pipe. You could even spin the puck with the little handle, sort of like grinding and smearing the hash, haha. It's sort of like... a reverse insert drop technique.

Once you have the hotplate set up, you've got a heat source for multiple types of heat batteries.

@Shit Snacks I won't kid myself, it's all about the aesthetics, haha!

@xtraclipsforxtrashit I'm working on a paper herb pod concept. It uses capsules made from paper, with extremely thin (almost cobweb like) paper screens glued directly to the capsules top and bottom with gum arabic (same glue used for rolling papers). The idea is to create a set of simple tools for both making and loading the capsules. I would supply the tool, and the paper in sheets. The ritual would essentially be like rolling a joint. The capsules would be disposable after use. They would be like little Keurig pods I'm imagining.

The downside to those tiny temp dials is that they're like $100. :/

And I'd love to make more pipe-shaped pieces in the future.

@GoldenBud I think that gold plated copper would be a good candidate for a vape heater, but there is a challenge in making the gold plating durable and long lasting with those high temps... and general wear and tear.
 
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