Crazy idea for high temp vaping - remove oxygen?

[t-dub]

I live very close to a Kingsford charcoal briquette plant and I know the guy who built it. Its basically compressed sawdust that is heated, under specific conditions, with no oxygen and "presto" you get charcoal. These guys monitor humidity and water weight a lot. The huge sawdust pile they have catches fire from time to time. Do I want to make or breathe vapor from cannabis charcoal? I dunno. Sometimes the "pucks" I have left over from bubble hash can seem similar but they are brown, and crumble to dust.

 

[Anonymouse]

I live very close to a Kingsford charcoal briquette plant and I know the guy who built it. Its basically compressed sawdust that is heated, under specific conditions, with no oxygen and "presto" you get charcoal. These guys monitor humidity and water weight a lot. The huge sawdust pile they have catches fire from time to time. Do I want to make or breathe vapor from cannabis charcoal? I dunno. Sometimes the "pucks" I have left over from bubble hash can seem similar but they are brown, and crumble to dust.

The process of charcoal making basically involves the pyrolysis of cellulose in plant tissue down to graphitic carbon chains. There is actually still some oxygen present during this reduction, at least with traditional production methods, so smoke is also liberated (the smoke produced while making charcoal contains so much volatile goop it's actually flammable), but possibly the factory process involves a truly sealed environment (which could account for the browner colour).

This doesn't raise any concerns when applied to vaping without oxygen, though, as it's both a very slow process, taking days (yes, the load in a vape is a lot lighter and more finely-divided, so would be faster, but not anywhere near within the space of a single draw), and also it requires pretty high temperatures you wouldn't want to use to vape with; not just cellulose auto-ignition temp, but well beyond. 400C/500C+. The traditional method involves setting a huge pile of small pieces of wood on fire and then burying it for insulation and to choke oxygen flow, then watching it carefully for days to make sure it doesn't overheat and turn all your charcoal into ash in a brief but spectacular inferno. Hot!

And even if this pyrolysis was happening to a noticable degree in a single draw, it'd still be nothing compared to all the crap released if you just set that same load on fire and inhaled it, as some folks are wont to do.

 

[Puffers]

Great discussion guys, now I got gears turning on what to do with my 40# bottle of nitrogen and how that can interface with my ssv.....

For the sake of of course

Thinking it wouldn't be that hard to use my tank regulator and blow a high temp nitrogen bag.....

 

[t-dub]

If you guys want the ultimate rush the choice is obvious . . . nitrous oxide, aka whip creamer chargers or "whippets" (N02) displaces 02 in the brain . . .

Edit: Warning could lead to . . .

 

[Anonymouse]

If you guys want the ultimate rush the choice is obvious . . . nitrous oxide, aka whip creamer chargers or "whippets" (N02) displaces 02 in the brain . . .

Edit: Warning could lead to . . .

We call these "nangs" in Australia, for some reason, when used for this purpose. You can make a little device out of bits from the plumbing section of the hardware store that lets you use them to blow up ballons for inhalation. Hypothetically, with a little adaption it could be used to blow up a Volcano easy valve bag (the ones where the bag and valve is one disposable unit and you buy 5-packs), and then that bag plugged straight onto the base port in an EVO's bamboo, pretty-much...

Hypothetically.

 

[DieHard]

If you guys want the ultimate rush the choice is obvious . . . nitrous oxide, aka whip creamer chargers or "whippets" (N02) displaces 02 in the brain . . .

Edit: Warning could lead to . . .

Back in the day I had a 3 foot long bong that I made from PVC pipe and an old scavenged bong stem. I drilled a large hole in the side and fitted a Nitrous cracker (plastic gizmo that the NO2 cartridge screws into and punctures and regulates it). Anyway the nitrous was a forced "carb" with a kick!
Later I tried this with a small pipe and a plastic Venturi (for draining waterbed). The NO2 velocity caused a draw on the bowl and gave a mixed weed/nitrous hit...until my friend stopped inhaling. At that point the NO2 went into the lit bowl and a foot high flame shot out of the bowl right in front of my friend's amazed face. Same effect NO2 has on a car engine, violent combustion. That contraption was immediately dismantled, never to be repeated.

My point. The NO2 will provide plenty of oxygen for combustion.

 

[Vapewithfire]

To say I'm looking for "more stoned" isn't exactly an accurate representation of my feelings, as I've seen others say they are a bit turned off from vaping as they feel like the high is missing something. I'm perfectly happy with the high I'm getting, but if I can ever get more out of my bud I'm down for that

I'm actually more interested in potentially extracting all the actives from a load quicker through higher temperatures.
The combustion point of bud is a limiting factor in how high we can go with temps, so therefore is also a limiting factor in how quick we can get the actives to boil off.

When you are percfectly happy with your high, i wouldn´t risk combustion. I still need around 5 seconds to vape my bowl, even at 300 ° celsius.

You need to switch up the temp a bit, to get all all active substances.
I found a list in the net, Some sedatives ( calming ) and euphorants
start to rise at 230 ° celsius.
But no euphorants or sedatives in the list were over 230° ( cbd or cbn like substances ? ) I think 230°celsius should be enough, i use 250° celsius with my heat gun, and got no combustion, at least no visable.
I red, that someone said:

"I strongly believe that it is the lower temperature cannabinoids that frequently made me hallucinate when I smoked. I do look forward to an interesting set of experiments."

I red that cbn decreases the hallucinogenic part of thc, and can decrease the risk of getting some psycholgical problems.
Thats, why some want and need strains with cbd and cbn.
If they use it on 200° celsius could be much less stoned or calm, may be not good for guys, who want to use it for medication.
But with 230 ° this substances should rise, i guezz.

I think the point, when it combusts, depends on the vaping method
and the vape.
Possible is, that with a heat gun you can vape at 250 ° without visable combustion/burnings and with some vapes you would get combustion at 250 ° celsius. Even if i switch higher, i don´t see any combustion in the vapour or on the weed.
May be the oxygen is decreased or blown into the bong, by the heat gun. May be it´s a bit of vaccum in the bowl or a decreased oxygen content. I thought millions use this guns on 250° celsius, without any burnings or visable combustions.

 

[Stu]

Have you ever tried vaping with a simple hot air gun and bong.

Because with hot air gun he can adjust the temperature, and doesn´t
have to remove any kind of oxygen.

Here is a picture, that shows eagle bill vaping with his heat gun.

The hot air gun i got has an adjustable temperature contro...

All i meant, with my hotair gun and bong hint was, that even if i switch the temperature of very high ( more than 250° ) i see no combustion.

But with my vape on steinel hl 1910 e 5, may be invisible combustions, but nothing visible, what would scare me.

I think 230°celsius should be enough, i use 250° celsius with my heat gun, and got no combustion, at least no visable.

May be the oxygen is decreased or blown into the bong, by the heat gun.

@Vapewithfire This thread has nothing to do with heat guns or even heat sources in general. It is about removing oxygen from the equation of vaporization. Your incessant references to heat guns is not germane to this thread at all.

If you cannot contribute to the forum's threads without derailing them, please feel free to not post.

Thank you.

 

[Vapewithfire]

@Vapewithfire This thread has nothing to do with vape guns or even heat sources in general. It is about removing oxygen from the equation of vaporization. Your incessant references to heat guns in not germane to this thread at all.

If you cannot contribute to the forum's threads without derailing them, please feel free to not post.

Thank you.

This thread is not about heat guns, but about vaping with high temperatures, without getting combustions or smoke.

His main goal is to vape on high temperature, to get all substances as fast and clean as possible. If he does it with a speial vape or with removing oxygen doesn´t really matter, i guezz.

And may be he has not to remove the oxygen from the air path, because it may be work without it on high tempereatures.
Eventually this heat gun blows away some oxygen into the bong and the 300° celsius kill the rest of oxygen.

May be i got more than you, that removing the oxygen is only one of some ways to vape on high temperatures. The method i described could be very interesting for him, too.

I start to think, if it is not the vape lobby behind this forum, and that
they don´t want that we get a cheap and good vape, like i did post.
Because than we wouldn´t buy any 500,- Euro luxury volcanos, who might be nothing else than a heat gun in disguise.

May be i know much more about heat guns, than you. I use it since 10 years, eagle bill used it for decades, and they still sell professional high quality vapes based on heat guns.

Did you ever use a bong with heat gun, like me and millions do for decades ?

The original vaporiser is made with a heat gun.

Modnote: Stay on topic. Please avoid derailing or side-tracking discussions. Warning point issued.

 

[Frederick McGuire]

Eventually this heat gun blows away some oxygen into the bong and the 300° celsius kill the rest of oxygen.

This makes no sense to me.
So you're saying the heat gun blows out any oxygen that was in the bong (how?) and that the heat of the gun removes oxygen from the air it blows (again, how?)

When the heat gun blows air, it isn't magic-ing that air into existence, it's just sucking in room air, heating it, then blowing out the hot air.
Unless there's something about that heating process that removes oxygen from the mix, I don't quite see how what your saying could be right...

I start to think, if it is not the vape lobby behind this forum, and that
they don´t want that we get a cheap and good vape, like i did post.
Because than we wouldn´t buy any 500,- Euro luxury volcanos, who might be nothing else than a heat gun in disguise.

Dude, you should see the ear beatings the volcano cops when a newbie comes in and starts an "ask FC" thread with something along the lines of
"I'm looking to get a vape, I used my friends Volcano, and I know they are supposed to be the best, what should I get?"
You'll see multiple members telling them to abandon the volcano and get 4 other vapes for the same price.

The only kind of vape lobby behind this forum is a bunch of vape enthusiasts who want to see the industry grow so we can all have more fun toys to play with

 

[Vapewithfire]

This makes no sense to me.
So you're saying the heat gun blows out any oxygen that was in the bong (how?) and that the heat of the gun removes oxygen from the air it blows (again, how?)

That was only guezzwork, but there is no visable smoke or combustion.

I place the gun in the bowl, and the air blows the air from the bowl into the downpipe of my bong, i guezz.
I never had this idea of no oxygen and no combustion.
But may be thats why my weed doesn´t burn, when i switch on 300° celsius, and is still clean vapour.
You said you switched your vape a bit higher, some dense vapour and then smoke.

I switch the vape higher 300 ° celsius, dense vapour, but no smoke or burning. I just thought that your oxygene idea could have to do with it. Because i get dense vapour, without smoke.

 

[tuk]

Some fantastic posting there Anonymous ..thanks for the chemistry lesson.

 

[Caligula]

@Vapewithfire Your incessant references to heat guns in [sic] not germane to this thread at all.

Not only that, he was the worst of the 5!

Hes like... the black Ringo Starr.


And yes, I am aware of the irony in this post.

 

[Anonymouse]

Great discussion guys, now I got gears turning on what to do with my 40# bottle of nitrogen and how that can interface with my ssv.....

For the sake of of course

Thinking it wouldn't be that hard to use my tank regulator and blow a high temp nitrogen bag.....

C'mon dude, hurry up and do it, then report back. It is your scientific duty to mankind!

Ideally, though, someone with an EVO would do this, as I want to know if this makes it possible to rip it hard in full "concentrate" mode without pretty-much instant combustion.

Back in the day I had a 3 foot long bong that I made from PVC pipe and an old scavenged bong stem. I drilled a large hole in the side and fitted a Nitrous cracker (plastic gizmo that the NO2 cartridge screws into and punctures and regulates it). Anyway the nitrous was a forced "carb" with a kick!
Later I tried this with a small pipe and a plastic Venturi (for draining waterbed). The NO2 velocity caused a draw on the bowl and gave a mixed weed/nitrous hit...until my friend stopped inhaling. At that point the NO2 went into the lit bowl and a foot high flame shot out of the bowl right in front of my friend's amazed face. Same effect NO2 has on a car engine, violent combustion. That contraption was immediately dismantled, never to be repeated.

My point. The NO2 will provide plenty of oxygen for combustion.

Interesting story, and certainly gives me pause, but I'm not totally willing to give up on NOS as a possibilty yet. Yes, at extreme temperature like under compression in an engine cylinder it degrades exothermically into nitrogen gas and free radical oxygen atoms, which are crazy reactive, but we're talking really hot here.

Bowl flame temp in an in-use bong is basically a tiny furnace in operation, and can go well over 1000C, which is apparently enough to split N20 so it can work as an oxidiser, going by your story. I'm not sure whether this would still happen at 300C or 400C, though, so nitrous may be a viable option yet. Some testing needs to be done to get solid figures. Best info I can find is a reference to catalytic decomposition at 800C, which implies it doesn't decompose at 800C without some sort of catalyst present, which sounds promising for vaping temp ranges and even quite a bit past auto-ignition temps. Would be a great one-two punch if it can be made to work.

 

[rayski]

If you lowered the pressure, you could boil stuff off at a lower temperature, and maybe avoid combustion that way.

 

[DieHard]

C'mon dude, hurry up and do it, then report back. It is your scientific duty to mankind!

Ideally, though, someone with an EVO would do this, as I want to know if this makes it possible to rip it hard in full "concentrate" mode without pretty-much instant combustion.



Interesting story, and certainly gives me pause, but I'm not totally willing to give up on NOS as a possibilty yet. Yes, at extreme temperature like under compression in an engine cylinder it degrades exothermically into nitrogen gas and free radical oxygen atoms, which are crazy reactive, but we're talking really hot here.

Bowl flame temp in an in-use bong is basically a tiny furnace in operation, and can go well over 1000C, which is apparently enough to split N20 so it can work as an oxidiser, going by your story. I'm not sure whether this would still happen at 300C or 400C, though, so nitrous may be a viable option yet. Some testing needs to be done to get solid figures. Best info I can find is a reference to catalytic decomposition at 800C, which implies it doesn't decompose at 800C without some sort of catalyst present, which sounds promising for vaping temp ranges and even quite a bit past auto-ignition temps. Would be a great one-two punch if it can be made to work.

I love this thread. It is uber weed-nerd science. I am not really sure, obviously, how hot my bowl was but there was definitely some lit cherry in there. It was crazy the way the fire shot out of there. The weed in the bowl was consumed instantly and the screen was torched clean! My friend and I still laugh hysterically over that one. It was lucky. Could have turned out different...

 

[Caligula]

 

[DieHard]

300% hysterical!

 

[Anonymouse]

If you lowered the pressure, you could boil stuff off at a lower temperature, and maybe avoid combustion that way.

Unfortunately, you can't inhale from a vessel full of air at lower than atmospheric pressure. It would suck the air right out of your lungs like a vacuum until the pressure differential was equalised! Doing a low-pressure extraction would have to involve a special dedicated vape design that runs a large-volume closed extraction loop (or section, like a big piston chamber) under said low pressure until cashed, then compresses said volume down until it reaches atmospheric pressure for inhalation.

I don't see how this could easily be done with any existing designs, but you can get part of the way there with some accessories. It's easy enough to pull a really low pressure one one side of the load using a "vapour lung", and if your vape has a tight restriction (as in, restricts flow more than the packed load does) between the heater and the load like some designs, or you introduce such a restriction artificially, then some of that low pressure will "straddle" the load chamber too, and boost extraction efficiency.

Not as much as being able to boost the temp a bunch without worrying about combusting would, though.

 

[rayski]

I think a design something like an old fashioned glass-domed conduction vape could work. Decreasing the pressure inside the dome before increasing the temperature, and then, open a valve to let in air and allow the vapor to be inhaled. I wouldn't know where to start, but it sounds simple enough.

 

[Puffers]

I should have time tonight to play around with high temp extraction using nitrogen been busy this week and haven't had a chance. Would of done it it last nite but I got home late and was pretty toasted from sippin scotch with a buddy all evening

If you lowered the pressure, you could boil stuff off at a lower temperature, and maybe avoid combustion that way.

It looks like as atmospheric pressure decreases the auto ignition temperature lowers also so I don't think this is a feasible option. Would be interesting to know if it mathematically follows a similar curve to atmospheric pressure and their corresponding boiling points.

 

[Anonymouse]

It looks like as atmospheric pressure decreases the auto ignition temperature lowers also so I don't think this is a feasible option. Would be interesting to know if it mathematically follows a similar curve to atmospheric pressure and their corresponding boiling points.

Isn't this backwards? Assuming temperature held constant, at lower pressure you've got fewer gas atoms bouncing around, and thus a less favourable molar ratio of oxidiser to fuel. At higher pressure there's more oxidiser present, and thus relatively a higher proportion of said oxidiser present, and so more collisons between oxidiser atoms/molecules and fuel substrate atoms-and/or-molecules, which gives much more potential for a reaction to start. I'd expect auto-ignition points to be inversely-proportional to environmental pressure.

Looking forward to hear your results with a nitrogen bag, though. This thread seems to be pretty-much on hold 'til you publish, so to speak...

 

[Puffers]

Used a silicone mouthpiece from a omicron cart to get a good seal on my heater cover

Ok so in theory this idea works, but I personally don't think it is probably worth the trouble. I turned my SSV all the way up (hot enough to vape concentrates and instantly combust under most conditions), loaded the wand up all the way full, and flowed nitrogen through at a rate that would have definitely cause combustion with O2. The vapor was very thick and at first I thought I did combust but that wasn't the case, the vapor as expected even on the first hit tasted like a hot bland high temp hit. My bag wasn't cooperating (it had a leak) so I didn't try to finish the wand I took a couple hits for and proof of concept then finished the wand at a normal temp sans the nitrogen.

I don't think the high temp actives I received were anything special, in fact on the rare occasion I use a conduction vape like my MFLB it can sometimes really couch lock me with the high temp actives. Unfortunately my experiment did not yield similar results maybe I needed to try extracting a bit longer. Was definitely fun to try out though, man I love

Isn't this backwards? Assuming temperature held constant, at lower pressure you've got fewer gas atoms bouncing around, and thus a less favourable molar ratio of oxidiser to fuel. At higher pressure there's more oxidiser present, and thus relatively a higher proportion of said oxidiser present, and so more collisons between oxidiser atoms/molecules and fuel substrate atoms-and/or-molecules, which gives much more potential for a reaction to start. I'd expect auto-ignition points to be inversely-proportional to environmental pressure.

Wow, ya my mistake your totally right, I should of thought that through more before posting I must have misinterpreted something I read and lost my critical thinking skills some where along the way looks like research is still pretty sparse on this subject though.

http://www.chilworth.com/wp-content...e-Auto-ignition-Temperature-of-Chemicals1.pdf

 

[vap999]

Herbal vaporization at temperatures starting at anything above near-combustion temperature (mid-400˚F) is impossible!

Essentially all common organic substances pyrolyze in the low and mid-400s˚F. This is heat-induced breakdown of organic bonds and resulting polymerization, visible as formation of char, soot, blackening, etc. containing polyaromatic hydrocarbons (tars; generally presumed to be carcinogens). This is not oxidation or oxygen-dependent. This happens at temperatures below herbal material combustion (mid-400s˚F). We all use temperature controlled vaporizers to as much avoid inducing pyrolysis as combustion.

Blasting any plant-derived organic material with an O2-depleted gas at anything above near combustion temperatures is going to rather instantly form nasty tars, tastes (actual nasty vapors), aerosolized soot, etc. (stuff will just turn black). Many of us are familiar with below combustion temperatures causing extensive or total charring. Just imagine what higher temperatures would do.

 

[paytonpenn]

The Hammer with conduction, this is possible?, very much so like the T-Vape except I can keep increasing the temp.

From my testing it ends up black like soot. You shouldn't get to this point unless you're trying but I don't think its as high temp as you speak of, when using the Hammer with conduction you're not inhaling and/or slowly inhaling while loosely sealed, or at least with my testing. I was surprised I was able to get it so hot without combustion, with the I could see the glowing red line in the heatport and that is the indicator I use that its okay for oils.

There's a lot of talk before me I didn't read so, I may not be very informed. But if you are inhaling while applying heat then you will combust which is how the T-Vape works well for not combusting but getting your herb black as you have to wait for the vapor. I used that factor in the Hammers heat port, you can combust but that is more likely when rapidly heating and inhaling while heat is increasing or when you can only extract more by reaching combustion which create black soot.