Can we talk water solubility?

[WalkOfLight]

I found some “dosed” gummies that claims to have figured out water solubility. Googling this, the closest I get with my lizard brain is “bind it to a sugar, and you achieve water solubility” basically. I don’t understand. And nobody out there wants to share their secrets.
For example cannasugar. Is this “bound” to sugar? Does it “bind” after I use it to cook with?
I’ll share my experiments n info, I just need to know what direction to go in.
thanks.

 

[shredder]

I found some “dosed” pr that claims to have figured out water solubility. Googling this, the closest I get with my lizard brain is “bind it to a sugar, and you achieve water solubility” basically. I don’t understand. And nobody out there wants to share their secrets.
For example cannasugar. Is this “bound” to sugar? Does it “bind” after I use it to cook with?
I’ll share my experiments n info, I just need to know what direction to go in.
thanks.

As I understand most people dosing sugar use an alcohol tincture and then evaporate the alcohol leaving the canna oil attached to the sugar. I don't think that is really soluble though, unless in a hot drink or in something thick that can suspend the canna oil in it.

True water solubility would be hard for a diy type. The canna industry uses ultrasonic equipment and proprietary ingredients. I'm hoping someone finds a way to find a water soluble solution for home use. We can come close, but we're not there yet.

 

[Ramahs]

A while back a friend of mine had thc in a water soluble solution that he'd gotten from a legal state.
We were in a bar, and a couple small squirts into my beer and I was feeling it within 15-20 minutes.
I was highly surprised it worked as well as it did.

I remember a month or two before that seeing an article about a company that was making a water soluble cannabis product that can be added to drinks like that, but I don't remember the details. It's a complicated chemical process to get it to be water soluble, as in it would not be something that the average person would be able to do at home without lab equipment.

 

[Thick Vape]

There is a way to make CBD or THC "water soluble".
I got to try water soluble CBD some years ago and it was pretty much tasteless in the water and it is active much faster than oil based cbd. And it is said to be much more bioavailable too.
I do not know the exact processes used and there may be more (or less)
What comes to my mind is nanoemulsion, microemulsion, liposomes and ionisation.
None of these can be made easily at home to my limited knowledge.

 

[invertedisdead]

What comes to my mind is nanoemulsion, microemulsion, liposomes and ionisation.
None of these can be made easily at home to my limited knowledge.

This is how most do it, though I believe technically a nano emulsion isn't truly considered water soluble, it just gives the impression of being such from the small scale dispersion.

The only one I know doing true water soluble cannabinoids is Trait Biosciences who I read an article about last year for their patented genetically modified cannabis to do such.

Ive had nano gummies and they are quite impressive, they kick in very fast, about the only true replacement to vaporizing that I've tried. One of the only dispensary products that is worth the cost IMO. I've looked into making them but like most of this stuff, you need the right equipment to match the results, this case being a shear homogenizer to emulsify the surfactants and such appropriately. If you look the process up, some commercial producers struggle with the emulsion holding its particle size long term. It seems kind of fiddly.

 

[WalkOfLight]

What about maltodextrin and FECO Powder? Says it piggy backs off carbs to get a very fast kick. Claims its soluble not suspended. Seems very DIY... Thoughts? I have a bunch of FECO to play with... I can also do some flower experiments if were exploring.

 

[shredder]

What about maltodextrin and FECO Powder? Says it piggy backs off carbs to get a very fast kick. Claims its soluble not suspended. Seems very DIY... Thoughts? I have a bunch of FECO to play with... I can also do some flower experiments if were exploring.

I have 2 qt jars full of it. But it isn't water soluble. It's somewhat soluble in hot coffee and works well in a shake. In a cold drink it floats and forms tiny balls of oil on the surface. My favorite way to use it is by the teaspoon. It dissolves instantly and leaves a little weed taste, but a shot of something takes the taste away. The buzz starts in about 15 minutes for me

If you want to " juice" up a alcoholic drink, try an alcohol tincture. I use a strong super silver haze tincture that I added a few drops of sweet orange oil to. I made it so a full squirt is about 40mg. It goes well with a summer shandy.

 

[el sargantano]

Cant't remember the OGpost, but there was a way with CITRIC ACID.
This is code E-330 on alimentary european standards and it's wide used in the food industry as an antioxidant to preserve everything from decay.
It is worthy to check Mary Helen edibles:

HERBAL EXTRACTS VIA CITRIC ACID

1/4 once of dried oregano extracted in citric acid in 4 days. It's still powerful even if it has lost its green color. Its loaded wit...

maryhelentestkitchen.blogspot.com

I bought it yesterday (5,15€/kg) and I'll round a ball of golden ABV next week to check that.
It suposedly could be mixed from drinks to chicken roasts, time will tell.

 

[kel]

Cant't remember the OGpost, but there was a way with CITRIC ACID.
This is code E-330 on alimentary european standards and it's wide used in the food industry as an antioxidant to preserve everything from decay.
It is worthy to check Mary Helen edibles:

HERBAL EXTRACTS VIA CITRIC ACID

1/4 once of dried oregano extracted in citric acid in 4 days. It's still powerful even if it has lost its green color. Its loaded wit...

maryhelentestkitchen.blogspot.com

I bought it yesterday (5,15€/kg) and I'll round a ball of golden ABV next week to check that.
It suposedly could be mixed from drinks to chicken roasts, time will tell.

This is amazing... I am a huge fan of fermentation... and I've always got something going; kimchi, beer, bread, etc, Sandor Ellix Katz is something of a hero, but this is something completely new to me... wow!

That it turns into a 'hash' is extremely curious, I am going to be experimenting for sure

Thanks for sharing

edit: just ordered some lecithin - seems like useful stuff, going to try some in my bread!

 

[WalkOfLight]

I have two runs of the citric acid.
it did not work for me.
I did a combo of Cec hash and flower. Then next one was cec hash and decarb. 3/6 grams because he said we could do half recipe.
Avb would be great for these experiments I think.

Barely gets me baked,
I used grain alcohol and sprouting citric acid. Then I bought the smaller grain after the fact.
(I would suggest at least using the correct citric acid, maybe stick with the vinegar side.)
I’m to irritated with little success to risk more.
I wasted like 4g of good hash so far.
I’m not sure if I messed it up or it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. Might circle back someday.
please let us know what you find?
good luck!

 

[kel]

Damn, that's a loss...

But no, I won't be testing with herb herb, something like thyme or oregano to play around with at first

I will report back! I am envisioning a nice herbal mix as the end result, and will probably adopt this into my home cooking too, seems like an excellent way to produce some new and unique flavourings, rubs etc.

 

[shredder]

Cant't remember the OGpost, but there was a way with CITRIC ACID.
This is code E-330 on alimentary european standards and it's wide used in the food industry as an antioxidant to preserve everything from decay.
It is worthy to check Mary Helen edibles:

HERBAL EXTRACTS VIA CITRIC ACID

1/4 once of dried oregano extracted in citric acid in 4 days. It's still powerful even if it has lost its green color. Its loaded wit...

maryhelentestkitchen.blogspot.com

I bought it yesterday (5,15€/kg) and I'll round a ball of golden ABV next week to check that.
It suposedly could be mixed from drinks to chicken roasts, time will tell.

On another forum posters along with i tried different citric acid fermentations. I used citric acid and vinegar, another poster used citric acid and alcohol. There may have been a third one, but I don't remember.

The alcohol/citric acid did not test good. It didn't decarb well.

My vinegar/citric acid using sift hash turned into hard rocks that were not water soluble and tasted terrible. Although it did decarb and get you high. I won't try it again.

So citric acid fermentations not recommended IMHO.

 

[invertedisdead]

One ancient traditional option is milk. If you research milk fat globule proteins, it's basically the same thing as you'd want to do with canna oils. A nano emulsion consisting primarily of water.

Here's an article I posted about it in @MinnBobber infused cream thread. I remember it being particularly fast acting.

Milk Fats Built for Digestion

Milk fats are easy to digest because they can be emulsified before digestion and can break themselves down without bile.

milkgenomics.org

I would say the heavy cream infusion was maybe too thick, I might try half and half or full fat milk next time. I realize this might not be what you're looking for, but figured it was worth a mention.

 

[macbill]

Here is a repost on water soluble solutions.

"The Art of Cannabis Emulsions"...How to Make Liquid Marijuana Edibles the RIGHT WAY!​

Make sure that you are using sunflower lecithin and not soy lecithin, there is a huge difference between the 2 and you will not achieve the same results if using the wrong one. Let me explain further, soy lecithin is used to bind water into oil which is not what we are after and the end result will yield an oily liquid which is harsh to drink as you will taste the oils in the liquid. On the other hand sunflower lecithin is used to bind oil into water which will break down the oil molecules down to a microscopic level and have almost no visual residue or taste of the oils left behind. Lecithin is a natural product used by a lot of vegans and is sold at almost all natural food stores so it is 100% safe for consumption.


I made some kick-ass canna-honey that I use in tea.

 

[shredder]

Here is a repost on water soluble solutions.

"The Art of Cannabis Emulsions"...How to Make Liquid Marijuana Edibles the RIGHT WAY!​

Make sure that you are using sunflower lecithin and not soy lecithin, there is a huge difference between the 2 and you will not achieve the same results if using the wrong one. Let me explain further, soy lecithin is used to bind water into oil which is not what we are after and the end result will yield an oily liquid which is harsh to drink as you will taste the oils in the liquid. On the other hand sunflower lecithin is used to bind oil into water which will break down the oil molecules down to a microscopic level and have almost no visual residue or taste of the oils left behind. Lecithin is a natural product used by a lot of vegans and is sold at almost all natural food stores so it is 100% safe for consumption.


I made some kick-ass canna-honey that I use in tea.

Not sure I believe this guy. I used soy lecithin for years before I switched after reading sunflower lecithin was better. I haven't noticed any difference in use or effects. But I know organic sunflower lecithin is cold pressed and doesn't have gmo's. And soy lecithin is from gmo soy beans.

Here is an article about each.

Sunflower Lecithin vs Soy Lecithin: Find Out Which Is Better

Sunflower Lecithin Vs Soy Lecithin is the latest buzzing rivalry in the nutrition industry. Lecithin is an essential fat present in the cells of the body. It is also added to medications and food products

www.herbalfoo.com

 

[WalkOfLight]

2-3 hrs in the double boiler even though it’s already oil and no plant material?
When I’ve been making my gummies I’ve been assuming my feco/Mct/lecithin was done once within minutes…
Am I missing out by skipping the 2-3 hrs or is this specific to bind to a sugar?
I would be willing to double boil it for hours with the gummy mix if needed. Alternatively I assume the honey could be used for gummies too.
My main take always here are
- try binding it to a carb
- make cannahoney next.
@shredder could you please tell me how to proceed for a Powdered FECO RECIPE?
Bought the maltodextrin and ready to go, all I found so far is one for flower but I’m not doing that one first.

 

[shredder]

@shredder could you please tell me how to proceed for a Powdered FECO RECIPE?
Bought the maltodextrin and ready to go, all I found so far is one for flower but I’m not doing that one first.

Sure, I start with a couple grams of feco, and mix it with lecithin and mct oil. I'm sure you can use other oils. I fill a measuring cup to 1/3 oz with the mix. Stir it well with gentle heat. Then in a large bowl put one cup of tapioca maltodextrin and pour the oil on the powder. I start here with 1/3c oil to 1c of powder, then add powder as I go. I probably end up with 2 cups, but I go easy with it and keep mixing. I fold and mix with a fork and add more maltodextrin until the texture is right, and well blended. Too dense and it's sticky, too light and it's fluffy but not as potent. Then I force the mix through a colander with the back of a spoon and store in jars.

There are some you tube videos that may be slightly different but this is how I do it. Tapioca maltodextrin is better for this than other forms of maltodextrin. It's a very light powder to start, then thickens with the oil.

 

[WalkOfLight]

Left the mixture more chunky then powdery. Estimated Tbsp is just under 180mg lol. I took two and wow was that an experience.
It was like a steady increase for two hours! This is my new favorite way of finding toasty comfort.
I'm not sure how to upload pictures here? what website do I use?
Here is my attempt at powdered cannabis oil ---

https://imgur.com/2bOUe3h

Onward to cannahoney!
I think I'm going to do this today.
Can anyone recommend how to up the strength?

@macbill Im going to use the info you posted. Say If I wanted to use the same amount of honey and triple or quad up the dosage, All I would really need to do is follow the 1/1 lecithin/concentrate recipe right? Or is there enzymes in the honey that only breaks down so much? I assume the 1 Tbsp of MCT oil stands even if you multiply the concentrate and lecithin. Unless you use more honey I'm sure.

 

[macbill]

I didn't make an exact copy. I used 1:1 decarbed THC:soy lecithin. The taste of the lecithin, however is not that great. For me, the next batch I make will be more 2:1 decarbed THC: soy. The Original Poster included cane sugar to sweeten. I'll try that, too.

 

[WalkOfLight]

Ah yea I use that same Lekithos brand, but I only have the powdered form.
I dont think it will be an issue, I might buy the liquid version someday to compare.

Poster emphasized that 1/1 is very important for the quick pop after emulsification.
I've been really thinking about why this diy method would work.
I'm almost certain that the enzymes from the bees plays a big role to get close to water solubility.
Which is why the limited MCT oil, and 1-1 is so important? Not sure.
Oh and this guy says "simmer" 2-3 hrs. Well simmer happens at like 180 degrees or so. I'm going to use induction to be closer to scientific.

 

[Ramahs]

Is the 1-1 in weight, or volume?

 

[WalkOfLight]

There interchangeable I think. 1ML FECO / 1 gram of powdered lecithin.

 

[shredder]

Left the mixture more chunky then powdery. Estimated Tbsp is just under 180mg lol. I took two and wow was that an experience.
It was like a steady increase for two hours! This is my new favorite way of finding toasty comfort.
I'm not sure how to upload pictures here? what website do I use?
Here is my attempt at powdered cannabis oil ---

https://imgur.com/2bOUe3h

Onward to cannahoney!
I think I'm going to do this today.
Can anyone recommend how to up the strength?

@macbill Im going to use the info you posted. Say If I wanted to use the same amount of honey and triple or quad up the dosage, All I would really need to do is follow the 1/1 lecithin/concentrate recipe right? Or is there enzymes in the honey that only breaks down so much? I assume the 1 Tbsp of MCT oil stands even if you multiply the concentrate and lecithin. Unless you use more honey I'm sure.

Wow, thats pretty thick, looks stronger than crap, lol. I can just imagine how high you got! Mine is just an off white color and my wag (wild ass guess) is about 50mg per teaspoon. One time my wife asked what size dose she should try, I said a teaspoon but she thought she heard 1 table spoon. She handles edibles very well but that was a bit much, lol.

Did you get a quick buzz? I can get off in about 15 minutes when I eat the loaded powder. The quickest edible I have.

Some future ideas for me are to add some yet undetermined flavorings to a batch and powdered coco to another.

 

[WalkOfLight]

Yes very strong lol. Yes very high. Oh wow that's awesome. A surprising 4x is always fun lol. Many o' weed naps on this journey.
So about that. I made my feco with like 5 oz and had no clue about winterization. I think the waxes are gunking up everything I do.
The bake was definitely noticeable in 20 minutes but it was steady climbing for two hours. Very unique experience.
Im going to run multiple tinctures n such to compare. Definitely winterizing from now on.

 

[WalkOfLight]

Some future ideas for me are to add some yet undetermined flavorings to a batch and powdered coco to another.

I was wondering if flavoring was going to be ok, and coco sounds awesome. Chocolate Almond milkshakes!