18650 Battery Safety

[RustyOldNail]

I know I try to ignore your advice about the extinguisher and keeping them in the fridge, I don't think my ocd needs all that since I've been getting by okay?? Or am I overdue

Not sure how that relates to your previous post about new versus old batteries in the help I was trying to give to a new battery user, but advice I give about long term storage is from experts. I only store them at proper storage voltage in the frig if it’s for LONG term. As far as having an efficient way to put out a lithium battery fire, well some folks don’t drive with auto insurance, not a problem until they hit you. Besides, makes me sleep better at night knowing the cost of one lithium extinguisher is less then most dab rigs.

“overdue”? I would never want ANYONE to experience the consequences of a home fire..... nothing to joke about.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Not sure how that relates to your previous post about new versus old batteries in the help I was trying to give to a new battery user, but advice I give about long term storage is from experts. I only store them at proper storage voltage in the frig if it’s for LONG term. As far as having an efficient way to put out a lithium battery fire, well some folks don’t drive with auto insurance, not a problem until they hit you. Besides, makes me sleep better at night knowing the cost of one lithium extinguisher is less then most dab rigs.

“overdue”? I would never want ANYONE to experience the consequences of a home fire..... nothing to joke about.

Sorry, I know you provide a lot of valuable info here, but yeah I've had long-term storage of batteries unused for years without taking these precautions is what I'm saying, reading your posts makes me scared! But I guess not enough to do anything yet... Regarding the new batteries, like I have some brand new batteries that I have not charged up yet, they've been sitting just like how they arrive, and I figured that was no big deal since that's how they'd be sitting at the warehouse from where I bought them? I don't know, I tend to overthink, but trying not to about this... Sorry I shouldn't have posted when I didn't have much to say, not necessary, thanks for all your efforts in here!

 

[RustyOldNail]

Sorry, I know you provide a lot of valuable info here, but yeah I've had long-term storage of batteries unused for years without taking these precautions is what I'm saying, reading your posts makes me scared! But I guess not enough to do anything yet... Regarding the new batteries, like I have some brand new batteries that I have not charged up yet, they've been sitting just like how they arrive, and I figured that was no big deal since that's how they'd be sitting at the warehouse from where I bought them? I don't know, I tend to overthink, but trying not to about this... Sorry I shouldn't have posted when I didn't have much to say, not necessary, thanks for all your efforts in here!

My intentions are never to scare anyone, I can’t advise those that are not interested in safety. This new member expressed his interest in safety, and for those smart members I’ll take extra time to help, as long as they are actively helping themselves. My mother used to say: “A word to the wise is sufficient”.

Your new batteries sitting on the shelf are probably fine, take a quick voltage reading to know what they are at. All the batteries I use are stored in an military ammo box, at ROOM TEMPERATURE. Some new 18650’s I bought in 2015 are stored in the frig at 3.8volts (long term storage voltage). Other then that, I don’t get too OCD about using them and recharging them at the published specifications. BATTERIES = CONSUMABLES.


I think everyone appreciates your contributions here.
In my opinion, a mild critic, is take your time in responding, better for QUALITY over QUANTITY.
I usually participate if I feel I have something to ADD, or CORRECT, or JOKE.
After that, I’ll leave the rest to you.....

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

Agreed, it’s a GOAT ROADEO out there in terms of fakes and clones. The best you can do if you haven’t already is search for “battery mooch”, he had the added equipment to test batteries at their amp limit, temperature limit. He has YouTube videos, published charts and specs on many batteries.

Yeah, it's crazy that we literally have to go through a minefield of fake and dangerous products out there but I definitely agree that it's better to be safe than sorry. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this thread as well as so many other people that have contributed to it. Yes, I use Mooch's website and he's really an expert on all things battery related.

Just a few thoughts that I'd like to share. For peace of mind in the future, I'll only buy Molicel batteries to avoid the hassle and uncertainity of having to deal with possible fakes. This company designs cells for vapes and sells them directly to authorized vendors, so this eliminates the doubt of whether vendors broke up battery packs or whatever to sell individual cells to customers.

Your new batteries sitting on the shelf are probably fine, take a quick voltage reading to know what they are at. All the batteries I use are stored in an military ammo box, at ROOM TEMPERATURE. Some new 18650’s I bought in 2015 are stored in the frig at 3.8volts (long term storage voltage).

What do you consider long term storage--one or more years? I read somewhere that it's not good to keep batteries fully charged even if they're not being used for a few weeks as this stresses the cells. From your experience, what's the best voltage to keep them at room temperature? Btw, that's a great idea to keep them in a special box--I need to look into getting a fireproof metal box.

I think you mentioned earlier that you have a SKYRC MC300 charger. Does this let you check the real mAh of your cells and can you check impendance too? Do you also use a digital scale to check the battery's weight?

I think that's everything for now. Stay safe everyone!

 

[RustyOldNail]

Yeah, it's crazy that we literally have to go through a minefield of fake and dangerous products out there but I definitely agree that it's better to be safe than sorry. I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on this thread as well as so many other people that have contributed to it. Yes, I use Mooch's website and he's really an expert on all things battery related.

Just a few thoughts that I'd like to share. For peace of mind in the future, I'll only buy Molicel batteries to avoid the hassle and uncertainity of having to deal with possible fakes. This company designs cells for vapes and sells them directly to authorized vendors, so this eliminates the doubt of whether vendors broke up battery packs or whatever to sell individual cells to customers.



What do you consider long term storage--one or more years? I read somewhere that it's not good to keep batteries fully charged even if they're not being used for a few weeks as this stresses the cells. From your experience, what's the best voltage to keep them at room temperature? Btw, that's a great idea to keep them in a special box--I need to look into getting a fireproof metal box.

I think you mentioned earlier that you have a SKYRC MC300 charger. Does this let you check the real mAh of your cells and can you check impendance too? Do you also use a digital scale to check the battery's weight?

I think that's everything for now. Stay safe everyone!

FROM POST #90:

“Long term, is when you have a lot you don’t think you will use in a year or two. I put some Sony VTC5 18650’s away for a few years in bottom of FRIG (not freezer), well wrapped. Took them out, let them warm, then charged, perfect. The shelf life of lithium batteries is about 10 years, so if you not using them for months, no problem. Most vapor users don’t need to do long term “cool” storage, unless you have more then you can currently use in a year or so. Also most specs on 18650 batteries will claim 300-500 recharge cycles. So, if you only used ONE battery, once a day, it could last 1-2 years. If you rotate more batteries, they all have longer life. BATTERIES = CONSUMABLES”

FROM POST #92:

“Indeed, I have a bunch in a room temp box that I’ll probably never use, but aren’t worth the effort or space for long term storage. I do keep records of my battery purchase dates, and log their specs when new so I have a baseline of them for future reference. It’s also a pain to try to manually charge or discharge a battery to the proper storage voltage of 3.8v, unless the charger has a “storage” preset, it’s doable, but you have to factor the voltage sag when battery is removed from charger. Much simpler to use them as designed....”

YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS:

I keep my vape batteries at FULL 4.2 volts off the charger at room temperature so I can easily swap them when needed. New batteries, extra stock, in sealed container in frig, NOT FREEZER, at 3.8 volts storage temperature. These will be good for years. That’s how I roll, others find their own comfort level.

The SkyRC MC3000, can read DC resistance in each slot, these kind of resistance readers built into even the best chargers are hard to get accurate readings due to the sliding connectors. Decent enough once you get a stable reading, to log batteries, and compare to some of Mooches DC RESISTANCE test results. The problem trying to compare to most published manufacturers specification sheets, is they use AC RESISTANCE. I bought a separate meter for AC readings.

That charger does calculate mAh, the most accurate way, is the charger DISCHARGES the battery to my set STOP VOLTAGE at 2.5 amps (the same as spec sheets), then the charger goes into CHARGE MODE to 4.2 volts, when finished, you get the TOTAL mAh of 1-4 batteries. You can then compare to spec sheets, or Mooch test results.

After all that, I don’t weigh the batteries, as I’m 99% sure I have an original battery. Weighing is not a bad idea, but there’s probably enough variation to make it the least effective method to detect fakes. Most fakes, even if they look proper, will most likely NOT have the same mAh’s, as the original. They may exhibit higher internal resistance as well. In use, they may exhibit a much larger voltage drop under load, as they are not high amp batteries! Just inferior batteries with BOGUS wraps and exaggerated printed specs.

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

@RustyOldNail: There's a wealth of knowledge in your reply and I appreciate your detailed responses.

I keep my vape batteries at FULL 4.2 volts off the charger at room temperature so I can easily swap them when needed. New batteries, extra stock, in sealed container in frig, NOT FREEZER, at 3.8 volts storage temperature. These will be good for years. That’s how I roll, others find their own comfort level.

That makes sense to me and as you mentioned it's hard to manually discharge them to a certain voltage but I came across some info from the Samsung SDI website today that I'd like to share and it also has me worried.

https://www.samsungsdi.com/lithium-ion-battery/safe-information.html (It's the last point in the upper grey box about fully charged batteries potentially becoming unstable and causing thermal runaway that really scares me.)

https://www.samsungsdi.com/lithium-ion-battery/safe-information.html (point 4 states that Samsung SDI did not authorize ANY third parties to sell individual cells to consumers. This basically means that even the most reputable vendors are in violation of Samsung's policies.)

I realize that Samsung is just covering themselves and Murata and LG have issued similar statements but it brings to mind a few things:

If one is using original cells in good condition with sufficient CDR and charging them properly and using portable vaporizers like the Ace, Crafty, Davinci and others, what is the greatest risk of something going wrong? A) Stored cells catching fire due to thermal runaway B) Defective charger which causes a fire or C) Some issue with vaporizer which short circuits the battery and causes the cell to vent or thermal runaway?

I don't know enough about chemistry or electronics to know how volatile Li-ion cells can become in storage and the summer heat (does using them above 30°C/86°F increase the risk of something go wrong?) It doesn't seem like the Ace and other conduction portable vapes are that demanding in terms of CDR and power but if the device breaks, could it short circuit the battery and cause a "nightmare" scenario? Those "DiodeGoneWild" videos really scared the crap out of me and have me wondering about the quality of electronics in portable vapes and if they have any built in safeguards to prevent things from getting really ugly.

Finally, are Molicel batteries any safer than the others? It does seem like the company's extremely confident that their batteries are safe to use in e-cigs/vapes as they openly advertise them for this purpose.

 

[RustyOldNail]

@RustyOldNail: There's a wealth of knowledge in your reply and I appreciate your detailed responses.


That makes sense to me and as you mentioned it's hard to manually discharge them to a certain voltage but I came across some info from the Samsung SDI website today that I'd like to share and it also has me worried.

https://www.samsungsdi.com/lithium-ion-battery/safe-information.html (It's the last point in the upper grey box about fully charged batteries potentially becoming unstable and causing thermal runaway that really scares me.)

https://www.samsungsdi.com/lithium-ion-battery/safe-information.html (point 4 states that Samsung SDI did not authorize ANY third parties to sell individual cells to consumers. This basically means that even the most reputable vendors are in violation of Samsung's policies.)

I realize that Samsung is just covering themselves and Murata and LG have issued similar statements but it brings to mind a few things:

If one is using original cells in good condition with sufficient CDR and charging them properly and using portable vaporizers like the Ace, Crafty, Davinci and others, what is the greatest risk of something going wrong? A) Stored cells catching fire due to thermal runaway B) Defective charger which causes a fire or C) Some issue with vaporizer which short circuits the battery and causes the cell to vent or thermal runaway?

I don't know enough about chemistry or electronics to know how volatile Li-ion cells can become in storage and the summer heat (does using them above 30°C/86°F increase the risk of something go wrong?) It doesn't seem like the Ace and other conduction portable vapes are that demanding in terms of CDR and power but if the device breaks, could it short circuit the battery and cause a "nightmare" scenario? Those "DiodeGoneWild" videos really scared the crap out of me and have me wondering about the quality of electronics in portable vapes and if they have any built in safeguards to prevent things from getting really ugly.

Finally, are Molicel batteries any safer than the others? It does seem like the company's extremely confident that their batteries are safe to use in e-cigs/vapes as they openly advertise them for this purpose.

While I respect anyone’s interest in lithium battery safety, considering the millions of batteries in use, it’s pretty safe if you follow all the protocols we have covered. You will always be able to find internet battery horror stories, best to read them and learn from them. I can’t speak for the reliability of the electronics in all vape mods, I’ve bought many over the years without issue, but I try to buy quality name brand devices, like Davinci, S&B, etc. You can always use an inexpensive volt meter to check your batteries as well. Use the device until it’s DEAD, immediately remove and voltage test the battery, and you’ll have an idea of the devices low voltage cutoff.

I believe at this point you have enough knowledge to decide for yourself if you want to use lithium batteries or not. I’ve got batteries sitting here over ten years old, they don’t explode or vent unless you abuse them or use them improperly. The odds are, you will never have a problem, better question to ask, is if you are prepared if there was one?

 

[cybrguy]

I had never seen an 18650 battery before getting my first RBT vape, a beta Zion. Since then, 2015 I think, all the battery vapes I like best have used 18650s. I have taken about four of the earliest out of service when they have stopped lasting as long. I would rather take them out of service early than keep them in service too long. They just aren't expensive enough to risk my devices or my skin. I have not had any vent on me and I am hoping to avoid that. I HAVE replaced several wrappers when they have gotten damaged.
Most of the battery venting stories I have read have been a result of stupid behavior, like keeping them in a pocket without a case or leaving them in a car in Arizona in the summer. Everyone comes with a brain, but not everyone uses theirs as they should.

 

[RustyOldNail]

I had never seen an 18650 battery before getting my first RBT vape, a beta Zion. Since then, 2015 I think, all the battery vapes I like best have used 18650s. I have taken about four of the earliest out of service when they have stopped lasting as long. I would rather take them out of service early than keep them in service too long. They just aren't expensive enough to risk my devices or my skin. I have not had any vent on me and I am hoping to avoid that. I HAVE replaced several wrappers when they have gotten damaged.
Most of the battery venting stories I have read have been a result of stupid behavior, like keeping them in a pocket without a case or leaving them in a car in Arizona in the summer. Everyone comes with a brain, but not everyone uses theirs as they should.

Very SMART to re-wrap your own batteries, they always seem to get chipped from charger contacts. Something I always add to a new battery order.

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

You can always use an inexpensive volt meter to check your batteries as well. Use the device until it’s DEAD, immediately remove and voltage test the battery, and you’ll have an idea of the devices low voltage cutoff.

That's a great idea but is there any reason one couldn't use a battery charger which also shows the cell's voltage?

I believe at this point you have enough knowledge to decide for yourself if you want to use lithium batteries or not.

This thread has been great in covering a lot of topics related to battery safety and I totally agree that it just makes sense to play it safe and be prepared. I guess I'll have to see if I feel comfortable enough using portables vapes with these batteries or not... If not, I might end up going for a desktop unit or getting something like the Vapocane or Vaponic. Having said that, I use a cell phone all the time without worrying but the li-ion battery is enclosed and non-removable. I thought the Pax might use a different battery than the vapes with removable batteries but it also contains an 18650 battery but maybe the biggest risk is improper charging and lack of common sense in using it...

https://www.instructables.com/Pax-Vaporizer-Battery-Replacement/ (inside of a Pax and how to replace the battery which actually looks dangerous to me)

Most of the battery venting stories I have read have been a result of stupid behavior, like keeping them in a pocket without a case or leaving them in a car in Arizona in the summer. Everyone comes with a brain, but not everyone uses theirs as they should.

I agree completely but think that the public needs to be better educated and warned about the dangers of using these batteries incorrectly. It's really in the best interest of vape shops and other vendors that sell batteries, chargers and vapes to inform the public about using these products safely.

Very SMART to re-wrap your own batteries, they always seem to get chipped from charger contacts.

If a battery gets a very small nick on its cylindrical body, would it be ok to put a sticker on it or is it better to re-wrap the entire battery?

 

[RustyOldNail]

That's a great idea but is there any reason one couldn't use a battery charger which also shows the cell's voltage?


This thread has been great in covering a lot of topics related to battery safety and I totally agree that it just makes sense to play it safe and be prepared. I guess I'll have to see if I feel comfortable enough using portables vapes with these batteries or not... If not, I might end up going for a desktop unit or getting something like the Vapocane or Vaponic. Having said that, I use a cell phone all the time without worrying but the li-ion battery is enclosed and non-removable. I thought the Pax might use a different battery than the vapes with removable batteries but it also contains an 18650 battery but maybe the biggest risk is improper charging and lack of common sense in using it...

https://www.instructables.com/Pax-Vaporizer-Battery-Replacement/ (inside of a Pax and how to replace the battery which actually looks dangerous to me)


I agree completely but think that the public needs to be better educated and warned about the dangers of using these batteries incorrectly. It's really in the best interest of vape shops and other vendors that sell batteries, chargers and vapes to inform the public about using these products safely.


If a battery gets a very small nick on its cylindrical body, would it be ok to put a sticker on it or is it better to re-wrap the entire battery?

If your charger is close by, and you believe it’s fairly accurate, then use it for voltage readings. Having a separate volt meter that can accurately measure low voltages, is handy to confirm your chargers readings, besides being handy to have around the home.

As far as a “nick” on a battery wrapper, you’ll just have to judge if you believe it could cause a short. I have never heard of anyone using a sticker to patch a nick, as many devices have tight tolerances, and any stickers may make the battery too thick to fit, besides I wouldn’t want anything like an ADHESIVE STICKER, getting warm in my device, coming off, making a mess etc. Battery wraps are pennies, use a heat gun, or hair dryer, it’s just properly shaped shrink wrap.

At this point you probably know more about lithium batteries then 85% of the people using them, and the fact that you appreciate SAFETY, I think you will be successful!

 

[KeroZen]

@fifty_shades_of_green: Note that the entire cell body up to the upper lip included is the negative terminal, not only the bottom flat end. Nicks and holes are usually not a big deal on the sides, and messing the wrap on the flat end even less.

On the other hand, damages near the positive terminal should be fixed quickly. Said upper lip is only a few mm away from the positive terminal on that side. And the plastic ring (white or black) is only held in place by the wrap and ultimately only offers limited protection. So if you have the upper lip metal exposed by a cut or wear, then the risk of creating a short is quite real with some battery receptacle tabs (less with springs) when during insertion the terminal will grind against the lip.

It's a bit hard to picture described like that I imagine, but I hope the precision is clear enough. By the way we had another thread dedicated to Li-Ion safety before you hijacked this one!

18650 Battery Safety

What exactly does blow up mean? The ones I bought were recommended by someone a page back and have been used with the Zion I think so hopefully will be ok. The charger I will probably buy. This is a controlled short that shows what can happen when an 18650 shorts out. I'm not suggesting this...

fuckcombustion.com

 

[RustyOldNail]

@fifty_shades_of_green: Note that the entire cell body up to the upper lip included is the negative terminal, not only the bottom flat end. Nicks and holes are usually not a big deal on the sides, and messing the wrap on the flat end even less.

On the other hand, damages near the positive terminal should be fixed quickly. Said upper lip is only a few mm away from the positive terminal on that side. And the plastic ring (white or black) is only held in place by the wrap and ultimately only offers limited protection. So if you have the upper lip metal exposed by a cut or wear, then the risk of creating a short is quite real with some battery receptacle tabs (less with springs) when during insertion the terminal will grind against the lip.

It's a bit hard to picture described like that I imagine, but I hope the precision is clear enough. By the way we had another thread dedicated to Li-Ion safety before you hijacked this one!

18650 Battery Safety

What exactly does blow up mean? The ones I bought were recommended by someone a page back and have been used with the Zion I think so hopefully will be ok. The charger I will probably buy. This is a controlled short that shows what can happen when an 18650 shorts out. I'm not suggesting this...

fuckcombustion.com

Great info as always Ken. Made me realize that besides recommending buying wraps, is to also buy EXTRA plastic rings for the positive end, though reusable, they are easy lost.

Why not ask the MODS to combine the two threads, less confusion for sure.

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

As far as a “nick” on a battery wrapper, you’ll just have to judge if you believe it could cause a short. I have never heard of anyone using a sticker to patch a nick, as many devices have tight tolerances, and any stickers may make the battery too thick to fit, besides I wouldn’t want anything like an ADHESIVE STICKER,

That's a good point and I've actually been trying to remove the sticky residue from the sticker that the vendor put on my batteries without damaging the wrap--using a fingernail might damage it and tissues tend to stick to this adhesive stuff.

On the other hand, damages near the positive terminal should be fixed quickly. Said upper lip is only a few mm away from the positive terminal on that side. And the plastic ring (white or black) is only held in place by the wrap and ultimately only offers limited protection.

Thank you for this detailed explanation.

By the way we had another thread dedicated to Li-Ion safety before you hijacked this one!

Sorry about that! I wasn't aware of the other thread until now but I've read the entire nine pages and think it's a great idea to merge these two threads if the Mod gods agree. These two threads contain some really important information about battery safety which I believe could prevent accidents and serious injuries.

I have a few thoughts on the other thread that I think are worth mentioning. One of the contributors mentioned that some chemicals from the batteries or even the wrapper could "off gas" if the cell gets too warm which is another reason why it's so important to have a fully isolated airpath. Nobody should be breathing in that stuff!

Another mentioned that vapes should have "air holes/vents" inside the battery chamber which keep the battery from getting too hot. I'm not aware of any portable vape that have this feature but maybe the OP meant some kind of e-cig mod.

Finally, it was mentioned several times over the years in the safety thread that there are some new and potentially safer kinds of Li-ion cells being developed such as "aluminum-ion" and ones that don't use heavy metals. Has anyone been following the development of the next generation of Li-ion batteries?

 

[cybrguy]

That's a good point and I've actually been trying to remove the sticky residue from the sticker that the vendor put on my batteries without damaging the wrap--using a fingernail might damage it and tissues tend to stick to this adhesive stuff.

Put a little ISO on that tissue and it will remove it fine.

I would not worry about wrappers "off gassing". If your batteries are getting hot enough that that might be a concern you have bigger problems than off gassing and you better deal with those.

New safer battery technologies are coming, but I don't expect them to be available at the consumer level very soon. The sooner the better of course.

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

Put a little ISO on that tissue and it will remove it fine.

That also crossed my mind but then I thought putting ISO on the wrapper might cause it to dissolve or even seep through the wrapper and affect the battery. Yeah, I'm a bit paranoid!

I would not worry about wrappers "off gassing". If your batteries are getting hot enough that that might be a concern you have bigger problems than off gassing and you better deal with those.

Speaking of being paranoid, a contributor on the "battery safety thread" posted a link to this video of a controlled explosion of an 18650 cell a few years ago and this really shows how dangerous they can be--the same thing could theoretically happen if they came into contact with keys, coins or any metal objects in someone's pocket, backpack or handbag. I don't mean to scare anyone but I think this video clearly shows how quickly things can get ugly and it's good to have a plan if something goes wrong...

(controlled explosion of 18650 cell)

This video scared the hell out of me and it seems like one has just a few minutes to react before the battery explodes. Hopefully, nobody will ever have to deal with this but what would you do in this situation? Chuck it out the window as far as possible or put it outside on a hard surface such as the balcony? I'd also be worried that if the battery blows and there's shrapnel, it might break windows or injure anyone else that is outside. (I live in an apartment building). Any ideas?

 

[RustyOldNail]

That also crossed my mind but then I thought putting ISO on the wrapper might cause it to dissolve or even seep through the wrapper and affect the battery. Yeah, I'm a bit paranoid!


Speaking of being paranoid, a contributor on the "battery safety thread" posted a link to this video of a controlled explosion of an 18650 cell a few years ago and this really shows how dangerous they can be--the same thing could theoretically happen if they came into contact with keys, coins or any metal objects in someone's pocket, backpack or handbag. I don't mean to scare anyone but I think this video really shows how quickly things can get ugly and it's good to have a plan if something goes wrong...

(controlled explosion of 18650 cell)

This video really scared the hell out of me and it seems like one has just a few minutes to react before the battery explodes. Hopefully, nobody will have to ever deal with this but what would you do in this situation? Chuck it out the window as far as possible or put it outside on a hard surface such as the balcony? I'd also be worried that if the battery blows and there's shrapnel, it might break windows or injure anyone else that is outside. (I live in an apartment building). Any ideas?

That’s why you want to maintain healthy battery WRAPS and the positive INSULATORS. If a battery VENTED while using the device out of my home, I certainly would toss it someplace else (not a place that could catch fire).

I don’t charge unattended, and keep a smoke detector near the charger.
Bought 2 of these:

General 1 — LiCELL

www.firehawkextinguishers.com

I’m as prepared as I feel comfortable.

 

[cybrguy]

This video scared the hell out of me

Paranoia is awareness. It is good to be aware of what these batteries are capable of. They are NOT like typical alkaline batteries, they are much more powerful and carry more risk. That is why it is critically important to buy them from a reliable source and use them wisely while following all the rules about safety and storage, especially repairing or replacing wraps that are not perfect.

That being said, they are perfectly safe if you treat them with respect. I have never had one vent on me and I have used them daily in vapes since 2015. They have powered my laptop computers for some 20 years longer. Until the recent trend towards very thin laptops virtually all laptops had then, usually in sealed battery packs. They are much more common than you would imagine, but inside devices you have never opened. Clearly it will make you more comfortable to do what @RustyOldNail does and have a lithium capable fire extinguisher in your home, so you can do that for not too much money. I haven't yet done that though I may still, money on safety equipment is never wasted. It is like insurance.

Made me realize that besides recommending buying wraps, is to also buy EXTRA plastic rings for the positive end, though reusable, they are easy lost.

This is a good point I never acted on as I have always been able to reuse the insulator on the battery I was fixing. I will be sure to get some of these soon. They should automatically come with battery wraps, and they don't.

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

That’s why you want to maintain healthy battery WRAPS and the positive INSULATORS. If a battery VENTED while using the device out of my home, I certainly would toss it someplace else (not a place that could catch fire).

That's another very important point and damaged wraps/insulators could led to some really dangerous situations when charging or using in a device..

Bought 2 of these:

General 1 — LiCELL

www.firehawkextinguishers.com

Thx for posting that and it is another way to be safer. If a battery started to vent, could it effectively be "extinguished" or is it going to explode like a lit firecracker even if the fire has been put out? My knee jerk reaction would be to toss it (including the charger or device) as far as possible but then you'd probably need a special glove or a towel to grab onto to it first...

That being said, they are perfectly safe if you treat them with respect. I have never had one vent on me and I have used them daily in vapes since 2015. They have powered my laptop computers for some 20 years longer.

That makes but feel better but speaking of laptops/phones, would you apply the same caution as with 18650s, or are they a lot safer because they are enclosed? I actually removed a battery from an old Vaio laptop (8 years old) that would get fully drained after 30 minutes of use and also get too hot for my liking. Is that a potential ticking bomb (even when not used)?

 

[RustyOldNail]

The other type of popular batteries for laptops, cell phones, and some vapes, is LIPO.

You can learn more below:

Pouch Cell - Small but not Trouble Free

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

“Pouch packs are normally Li-polymer. The energy density can be lower and be less durable than Li-ion in the cylindrical package. Swelling as a result of gas generation during charge and discharge is a concern. Battery manufacturers insist that Li-ion batteries do not generate excess gases that can lead to swelling when properly used. Nevertheless, some swelling can occur and most is due to faulty manufacturing. The pressure from swelling can crack a battery cover open and in some cases break the display or electronic circuit. Manufacturers say that an inflated cell is safe. While this may be true, do not puncture a swollen cell in close proximity of fire or heat; the escaping gases can ignite. Figure 2 illustrates a pouch cell that has swelled.”

 

[cybrguy]

Does paper make a better ring insulator than plastic, or does it not matter?

Incidentally, we were talking about other lithium batteries also needing respect. It is not just 18650s that can be dangerous. This phone battery puffed up and caused a phone body to break open. It is normally completely flat. It did not vent but was in a dangerous state. Many devices use lithium ion batteries and can present a danger, especially if they could be pierced. Most people just don't realize that fact...

 

[RustyOldNail]

Does paper make a better ring insulator than plastic, or does it not matter?

Incidentally, we were talking about other lithium batteries also needing respect. It is not just 18650s that can be dangerous. This phone battery puffed up and caused a phone body to break open. It is normally completely flat. It did not vent but was in a dangerous state. Many devices use lithium ion batteries and can present a danger, especially if they could be pierced. Most people just don't realize that fact...

I’ve never seen a “paper” insulation ring. Sounds like something a REWRAP company might use to save a few cents.
LIPO packs are considered a “safer” chemistry, but they can SWELL, and evidently react very BADLY if pierced with a nail. Most LIPO packs are protected from puncture, as they are sealed into a device.

EXAMPLE: I had an issue with my older iPad Mini. Took it to the Apple “genius” store. They were going to give me a new replacement. All good, while the iPad was sitting on the FLAT wood table in the store, the Apple person reached for the iPad, and it SPUN around on the table. While perhaps not a true genius, he alerted me that this was a sign the LIPO pack had swelled, thus making the bottom of the iPad, NO longer truly flat, thus it was able to spin.

So it’s a GOOD idea to keep an eye on LIPOs, if you detect any swelling, STOP using them, and replace.

 

[cybrguy]

I’ve never seen a “paper” insulation ring. Sounds like something a REWRAP company might use to save a few cents.

Most of the rings I have run in to while looking for a source selling small quantities are made of "fish paper" which is a "fibrous dielectric paper" according to the following article. https://www.americanmicroinc.com/fish-paper/

I will likely have to buy more insulator rings than I want or just wait till I have to make another battery order, which might be a while. So far I have only had to rewrap 2 or 3 batteries so I really hate to "stock up". It is kinda surprising to me that insulator rings don't come with wraps.

 

[RustyOldNail]

 

[fifty_shades_of_green]

“Pouch packs are normally Li-polymer. The energy density can be lower and be less durable than Li-ion in the cylindrical package. Swelling as a result of gas generation during charge and discharge is a concern.

I actually had a Samsung battery swell up a few years ago but not as bad as the one in the photo that @cybrguy shared. I noticed that the battery cover on my phone was bulging (remember the days of removeable batteries) and promptly got rid of it. It really scared me and I imagine that it would have been very dangerous to keep on using it or recharging it..

I've had some sessions with the new Sony/Murata VT5As and these are my observations so far. They stay cooler than the Samsung 26 JM that came with the Ace but still get warm. I think this is down to the amount of heat the Ace generates--the vape gets pretty hot after using for 10 mins or so (even at 185C) and some of that heat gets transferred to the battery. The battery chamber itself seems to be made of steel with some kind of silicone on one side and metal on the other, so it could easily transfer heat to the battery. This doesn't seem to be the best design and I also worry that the metal chamber could cause the cell to somehow short circuit...

I must say that I don't really feel that comfortable using it with all my newly acquired knowledge about 18650s and think my mind played some tricks on me during my last sesh. I usually start at 175C and have 5-7 min sessions and then work my way up to about 200C (5C increase between sessions). Anyway, I took the battery out during sessions to see how warm it got and I'm a bit embarassed to say this but I *think* I saw a kind of spark/flash as I was reinserting the battery into the chamber. Is that even possible? This most likely was the reflection of candle light or my blue LED chillout lights but the paranoid mind sees what it wants to see. I took that battery out and inspected it and put it outside on the balcony overnight in its case and continued with the other one. Nothing happened to the first battery and it's a completely brand new battery but I'm kind of afraid to use it again...

I'm starting to think that I need to look for different solutions as it's hard to fully enjoy my sessions with these kind of things on the back of my mind. Is there any way to power a portable vape via usb cable or connect it to the mains? If not, I might end up having to look for a desktop unit...