Discontinued Zion vaporizer

[slatihe]

I think the basket bowls a lil big...

But with strait stems you can just make the bowl any depth you desire. I mean you could make it a tiny, tiny, pinch. A flat a wide pinch, but like less then one millimeter deep....

Looks bigger then it is but you could make it smaller...

IME reducers lifted the load higher away from heater then desired.

 

[cybrguy]

I never do small loads without a 14mm reducer or without my wood/glass stem from Alan. Much, much more efficient with a smaller diameter stem and screen to match the smaller amount of material.

I guess I use my devices differently. I nearly always use the screen in basket style and fill it with either a nug or ground goods. Weight stays between about .08g and .11g depending on strain and moisture content. But if all I want is one hit (big or small) I just take one hit and put it down. Not being a session vape or conduction, I lose nothing by taking my hits one at a time when that is what I want. And, of course, I can stop that hit anywhere I want between tiny and huge.
Now, truth be told, I usually do finish a bowl at a time as I have found .1g (+/-) is about how much I want at a time for the level of effect I am after, but there is no pressure to do more or less with Zion or Milaana.

 

[ZC]

@slatihe

I personally don't feel the need to put the load that close to the heater, but when I use the reducer it's with D-daves rimmed 14mm basket screens so they're still pretty darn close.

Alan's glass-in-wood tube allows you to have a tiny load right up against the heater though, and I often do use it that way.

@cybrguy

You certainly can use it that way and I do sometimes too. It might just be a tolerance thing, but for me I load a large-ish bowl to start with and finish it in a handful of hits to get myself where I want to be.

Then later in the day/night I'll load up some smaller bowls for one hit extraction to top up when needed. It works fine to just load another big bowl and come back to it for a hit or two here and there, but I'd rather prepare the amount of material I'm using just at that moment. I enjoy the ritual.

I don't measure anything or even own a scale though, so it's hard to compare numbers.

 

[Shit Snacks]

@slatihe

I personally don't feel the need to put the load that close to the heater, but when I use the reducer it's with D-daves rimmed 14mm basket screens so they're still pretty darn close.

Alan's glass-in-wood tube allows you to have a tiny load right up against the heater though, and I often do use it that way.

@cybrguy

You certainly can use it that way and I do sometimes too. It might just be a tolerance thing, but for me I load a large-ish bowl to start with and finish it in a handful of hits to get myself where I want to be.

Then later in the day/night I'll load up some smaller bowls for one hit extraction to top up when needed. It works fine to just load another big bowl and come back to it for a hit or two here and there, but I'd rather prepare the amount of material I'm using just at that moment. I enjoy the ritual.

I don't measure anything or even own a scale though, so it's hard to compare numbers.

More off topickedness, but can you show me the wood glass stem how you use it? Do you have the glass fully in up to the edge of the wood, so then the wood and glass are pressed against the screen, or does the glass tube come below the wood and seal against the screen separate? I ask bc i had an early cork stem from him for Milaana and it is the latter and I didn't like that, felt too risky to poke heater screen and couldn't see how low to have it come out... Oh also do you use the two basket screen slide a bowl style Alan likes too?

 

[ZC]

This is how I like to pack it. I don't really like basket style simply because the screens don't stay as clean. But this method keeps the load thin and uniform. No need for stirring or any of that nonsense. This particular load is actually a bit heavy, I usually pack less with this method.

And this is how far out I keep the glass coming out of the wood. It's sticking about 1/8" out from the wood, and when seated it's a heavy 16th away from the heater screen. The glass slides in and out of the wood easily but stays snug, the fit is perfect. So I can change the distance if needed but this is what I usually stick with.

I personally don't have a problem with pushing it against the heater screen but don't feel the need to.

My heater screen is extremely high in the joint which is a pain when it comes to finding 18mm joints that fit without hitting it, so it's nice that both Alan and Joda's joints are short and leave plenty of room.

TBH all this probably belongs in the Mi thread but since you asked here this is where I'm answering. It's not that terribly off topic though considering all of this still applies to the Zion.

 

[cybrguy]

Not being a session vape or conduction, I lose nothing by taking my hits one at a time when that is what I want. And, of course, I can stop that hit anywhere I want between tiny and huge.

I felt a need to correct this. There is ONE thing I lose taking hits one at a time, and that is battery level. One needs about 10 sec of button on a fully cold Zion (at least on my beta) to get it to temp. Additional hits take much less time because the device is already heat soaked so I may be able to get a good hit in 5 or fewer seconds. This will save battery life and allow me more hits/bowls to a charge.

I am fine with this for the convenience, of course, but I thought I should mention it.

 

[grokit]

Yeah I've never tried a zion but I imagine it to offer the same one-hitter experience that the milaana does so well for me, just with more heat control on the upper end, kind of a limiter in practice, and less messing around with the batteries in a more self-contained if much larger unit. The road to zion is longer too.

 

[cybrguy]

The road to zion is longer too.

Walking is good for you.

It is worth the walk. I like different things about Zion and Milaana, but I like them both very much. Milaana feels better in my hand and, being smaller, works better on smaller glass pieces. Zion is more automatic, longer battery life, better for low temp and for stepping.

I look forward to both being readily available. We appear to be there with Milaana now, so hopefully RBT will get some time to get Zion restarted.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Yeah I've never tried a zion but I imagine it to offer the same one-hitter experience that the milaana does so well for me, just with more heat control on the upper end, kind of a limiter in practice, and less messing around with the batteries in a more self-contained if much larger unit. The road to zion is longer too.

Totally easier in Zion, crank up the voltage and kill that bowl, or set it low and ride the tasty clouds for hit after hit that just keep going leaving golden avb... I would always swap my batteries position to keep em level after every bowl or so though, so not as simple as Milaana battery use for me, though obviously Milaana has its own battery foibles. I am still relying on it the most, beta Zions still packed away... Could be time to whip em out again, but yeah we've still got a long winding road ahead, easier to deal with when youre puffin on a Milaana as you stroll along the twisty turny path

 

[TeeJay1952]

I know folks who despise Automatic Transmission.
I know other folks who don't know what Manual is.
I know folks who changed their minds after they got used to something.

 

[cybrguy]

I would always swap my batteries position to keep em level after every bowl or so though, so not as simple as Milaana battery use for me, though obviously Milaana has its own battery foibles.

I haven't bothered with this, just using a pair until it isn't strong enough to get the hit I want, tho I DO swap their positions each time I swap pairs. These batteries are reasonably priced (been paying around $5-$8 ea) and I am just, after just over a year, thinking that it may be time to retire my first set. They still work but I am starting to get fewer bowls. I still use the yellow LGs in Zion, tho I have gone with the brown ones in Milaana.

Since I will be buying more, does anyone think I should change to the brown LGs in the Zion too?

 

[Edric al-Fali]

I prefer manual, but drive automatic. I have been stuck in traffic with manual and it sucks. I've also had to do high speed merges from full stop and stalled out an automatic transmission.

I don't regret the Milaana, but I think I will like the Zion better. I now have a better idea of what type of vaporizers RBT is putting out. It makes an excellent transportable vape and a good portable.

I don't plan on taking my Zion with me on any quick trips and probably won't be bringing it to work. I might bring it to a friend's or somewhere I won't be very active. I'm too clumsy to bring this out. The body itself may be durable, but the most important parts are loose and fragile glass.

That being said, my true travel vape has tight connections and glass where it counts. I have no fear of spilling it. However, the wood is so fragile that both units I've had need to be held together with metal bracings i made.

I love the one button concept an how it ties into what I love about the Milaana and what I see in Zion. No thought, on demand heat. That giant bowl size also makes this thing the easiest to hit with regards to airflow. The heat is powerful enough that you don't have to effectively hold your breath while taking a hit. All together it is a very thoughtless and natural process for me.

I do pack it like a bowl and take single hits out of it from time to time.

I haven't bothered with this, just using a pair until it isn't strong enough to get the hit I want, tho I DO swap their positions each time I swap pairs. These batteries are reasonably priced (been paying around $5-$8 ea) and I am just, after just over a year, thinking that it may be time to retire my first set. They still work but I am starting to get fewer bowls. I still use the yellow LGs in Zion, tho I have gone with the brown ones in Milaana.

I've been pretty draconian about this. I remember reading in an earlier post that they should stay in pair and in the same position. Since these are my first high power batteries, I have been a little paranoid.

 

[cybrguy]

stay in pair and in the same position

Stay in pairs, yes. But swap the positions. Some people don't do either, but this is what is recommended for longest battery life and greatest safety.

So, from everything I have heard, and read, in this forum or elsewhere, if you use 18650s in pairs, the pairs should always stay together in use and in charging. And their positions should be swapped often within the same pair. Some even recommend that they be from the same run of batteries (same 6 or so leading #s in the s/n) when possible. Mine all are.

While this may be overkill, I like the idea of having the greatest safety with these powerful batteries. There are vids all over the web that show what can happen when they are NOT respected...

 

[little maggie]

Just wondering if anyone has been in contact with RBT to see when the Zion might be sent to those who've bought one.

 

[Shit Snacks]

Just wondering if anyone has been in contact with RBT to see when the Zion might be sent to those who've bought one.

No real news, still indefinite waiting

 

[KeroZen]

So, from everything I have heard, and read, in this forum or elsewhere, if you use 18650s in pairs, the pairs should always stay together in use and in charging. And their positions should be swapped often within the same pair. Some even recommend that they be from the same run of batteries (same 6 or so leading #s in the s/n) when possible. Mine all are.

Ideally you would want to match them by IR and by cycle count, but I disagree with the rest: a pair can age differently and might still end out of balance, in which case it would be better to re-pair with cells having the same IR or close.

Swapping the position is because one cell is closer to the heater than the other, so it's meant to even the strain due to the heat. But it's not really necessary IMHO and I don't do it at all. I insert them randomly and there's some swapping occurring... just not on purpose.

But our cells are in series and not in parallel, so it's not as dramatic. With parallel cells you can have charge exchange between the weak and strong cells. In series our problem is that the Zion has no per-cell protection, so if they get out of balance, one cell can discharge below the safe level, while the circuit only sees the cumulated voltage (cell A+B)

The cutoff is around 6V, it's good if A and B are balanced and end at 3V each, but if it's not the case you might have (extreme example) 2.5V + 3.5V, although it's unlikely. Thus far I've seen at most 0.2V of difference sometimes and it's not even regular.

 

[DirtbagDan]

There's the customer service and responsiveness factor...

 

[KeroZen]

Bah CS for the Milaana is very good atm. Turnaround for warranty repairs is fast, people get their mails answered quickly.

It's just that the Zion is fucking stalled for now, it's a shame but that's how it is. Priorities management... survival of the company is more important than pleasing the few remaining pre-orders I imagine? I feel bad for the three returned units though....

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the situation at all. But it's the way it is and there's nothing we can do apart from supporting Ryan by purchasing Milaanas and spreading the word (to your dispensary, vape shop, coffee shop, ecig shop...)

 

[cybrguy]

Ideally you would want to match them by IR and by cycle count, but I disagree with the rest: a pair can age differently and might still end out of balance, in which case it would be better to re-pair with cells having the same IR or close.

I'm not sure what you mean by IR, but if they are paired aren't their cycle counts going to automatically be the same?

And, btw folks, @KeroZen is my battery guru so if we ever disagree on batteries, believe him over me. I began this vaporizer thing as a 18650 virgin.

(anyone paying attention, I changed that because I liked the idea of being a virgin again...)

 

[ZC]

CS is at a strange place because from what I understand Mi CS is not being handled by RBT himself but it has been very good lately.

But Zion preorders are still customers and receiving radio silence is not really an acceptable level of CS when a company is holding onto hundreds of your dollars.

I have no reason to believe CS won't be great once Zions start rolling off the line, just like it's been with the Mi but until we reach that point it's pretty frustrating and discouraging.

Mi's for $120 for Zi preorders was a nice gesture though, considering the situation. If I could still get a Mi for that price I'd own four of em like @Bravesst

At this point I see myself buying a Zion most likely, but I don't think I'm going to preorder and go through the waiting game like I did with the Hopper. I'm going to wait till they're immediately available.

@cybrguy

IR stands for Internal Resistance, but unfortunately you can't measure it accurately with the standard multimeters most of us have at home.

 

[cybrguy]

IR stands for Internal Resistance, but unfortunately you can't measure it accurately with the standard multimeters most of us have at home.

I was guessing it wasn't something I could measure. So, I will just continue to keep pairs together, and maybe worry a little less about swapping within the pairs. When I put the pairs in the charger they have never been off by more than .1v.

 

[KeroZen]

Well you can measure IR, I posted a couple of means earlier, it's not that difficult. cf: http://laserpointerforums.com/f67/h...es-how-measure-internal-resistance-57576.html

For some reason my hobby smart charger has troubles measuring the IR of those 18650 cells but has no issue with my 3S and 4S Li-Po packs that have a way lower per cell IR... But it might be due to the sloppy contacts from my probes (+magnets) I'll retry later with a better setup, as for now the values are all over the place.

@cybrguy: yes the cycle count will stay the same, I said that in the case you need to re-pair them later on. It's best to match IR and overall cycle count. Because IR is a good indicator of the cell health but it's not directly correlated to capacity (loss) which is mostly a function of the cycle count.

The ideal case (this is how they build larger battery packs) is to match by IR right after manufacturing and before first use. Also packs for consumer products often have a protection circuit (aka BMS or PCM) which we don't have in the Zion.

This is all good on paper but once again, no need to nitpick when we are talking about $5 to $7 cells... life's too short for this kind of bullshit!

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

I know that it is becoming hard for people to keep the faith in Zion these days and I don't blame you. Early in the year the plan was to have a manufacturer take over the production of Milaana to allow RBT to focus on Zion. Given that Zion required some redesign to resolve some quality issues, Milaana seemed to be the lowest risk path. The manufacturer that we partnered with was a long shot as their business was primarily in resale of labels with some onsite printing. However, the one thing they had and still have is passion and belief in the product and that goes a long way.

Unfortunately after 6 months of mentoring the manufacturer they where unable to take on the sourcing / manufacturing of the wood, copper, heater, or glass and eventually could not meet cost, quality and production requirements in assembling Milaana. The fact that the organizational breath was insufficient to cover the required work for Milaana in full production was known. However, it was assumed that the sales of Milaana would build quickly to support full scale staffing. Unfortunately sales where no where near suffcient. With this realization last week we pulled the last of the operation back to RBT and will now be building Milaana as well as Zion for the immediate future.

Not all was lost in the effort as the manufacturer was able to build the pilot production run of units and get them out in the wild. The feedback from the initial issues seen in the field where resolved with 97% confidence quickly and are now instituted in the design, processes and quality steps. Most of these will benefit Zion production as well. For now, Milaana is listed as Sold Out on our www as we are pushing the last of the stock to our retailers. This will allow us to remain focused and will eliminate any back orders of Milaana @ RBT. We are already meeting with several partners to quickly offload aspects of manufacturing and assembly. This process will take time but we have containment plans in place to allow us to complete the work in stages. Fortunately their is a growing support in both the customer base and in with some big names in the industry (Hint: check our Twitter that should allow us to flourish in time.

So, thanks for continuing to support us and have faith in these tough times. There are over 200 Zion bodies that Will be populated and distributed as fast as the developing business will allow. This will assuredly not be our last hurdle in this race and we are sure to fall down again. I can promise though, that I will keep getting back up and running and finish. This may not the prettiest race you have ever seen but all good hurdlers have scares on their knees. I can assure you with certainty that the 200 Zion bodies will be completed in due time and all pre-orders will be filled.

I do understand that it has been over a year and some people are ready to strangle me and I apologize that the Zion project has not progressed to the original plan. I will continue to offer a refund through our www for those that need it and for those for those who still have faith we continue to offer a Milaana at $129 (email request to rbtvape.service@gmail.com). So keep the faith as Zion Will cross the finish line in time.

Peace,
RBT

 

[ZC]

Thanks for the thorough update. This is exactly the kind of communication people are looking for.

I'm sorry to hear that Mi sales didn't take off as well as expected -here on the forum we talk so positively about it it's hard to imagine it not selling well!

Nice to see Magic Flight being supportive.

Wish you the best of luck as you get through this rough patch. I do believe there is a bright future for RBT once you get past these hurdles.

 

[Philreal187]

I must admit I was getting a bit antsy without an update and contemplating dropping off since my milaana treats me so well. I have been looking forward to the zion since October and felt strung along until almost full circle and about a year since pre order. This update didn't give any time frame and thats perfectly fine, I think most of us just needed some reassurance that we are not forgotten. I really don't mind waiting even though I would prefer to be ripping a zion tomorrow, it's just how rbt path has unfolded. I believe that everything happens for a reason and these reasons can only be overstood by the receiver aka rbt. If a path is easy to travel its probably a short cut and you will certainly miss a few lessons. I don't believe rbt is taking any short cuts and is doing what he finds best for his company. Perhaps we are all a bit spoiled with the outrageously amazing standards of customer service we receive from some vaporizer companies and reps we find on FC. I'm grateful for the help of fellow members via pm to help me stay patient and ride out the road to zion. I was ready to jump ship and swim to a much more blooming company, but will be patient and eventually get the best of both worlds.

@RastaBuddhaTao I hope you can keep your stride and clear hurdles! I personally really appreciate the update and don't think I'm alone with that appreciation. I think we all know there is much brighter days ahead for this thread!!