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What makes cannabis medical?

Discussion in 'Medical Discussion' started by C No Ego, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead trance-form

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    My friend, activism is never cool, but it is just, and righteous, and needed, so I do not feel any embarrassment for speaking information which I have deemed truthful. I always suggest people to do their own research, and entertain more perspectives than that which has been influenced by money for financial gain.
     
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  2. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    The life expectancy of this thread is dwindling by the moment. We can either get back on topic or the thread can be closed down. I'll let you all decide.

    :peace:
     
  3. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    777
    When I was but a lad learning this "science" stuff, I was told of the laws of thermodynamics. In kid speak, you can't win, you can't break even, you can't get out of the game. It is the reason why physicists don't believe perpetual motion machines are feasible no matter how sciency it seems at first glance.

    Inexhaustible free energy is the same thing.

    It seems the profiteers are so good at profiteering they have changed the theory of everything, and got all those who check (aka scientists) to believe it too. Manipulated all the experiments to keep coming up with results that match the stated laws again and again and again and again and again...

    As to the medicine portion of the post, I am reminded of the medical advice:

    Those with a cold who treat it properly from the first signs will tend to get over it in seven days. Without proper treatment, it could take a week!
     
  4. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    1,213
    The known and proven body of knowledge out stripped the individuals ability to absorb or process it all a long long time ago. So much to most of our day to day life is controlled by our shared default beliefs not by our actual personal knowledge. The trick is to remain sanely open to the possibilities and respect those that see things differently.
     
  5. little maggie

    little maggie Well-Known Member

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    The in hospital study provides a direct response to the thread topic. I posted it before but I find the results so interesting that I'm repeating them. Even though it's likely that the patients were combusting and not vaping they showed lower odds of mortality and lower odds of cardiac disease and heart failure than non-smokers.
     
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  6. CarolKing

    CarolKing Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur

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  7. Used2use

    Used2use Landrace racer

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    i get what u are saying, but imo the sanely openness line is crossed by bringing up false facts without any proof or source.
    A fact is a fact until proven wrong. An apple will fall to the ground, no matter how different others see it or whatever conspiracy theory is fabricated. Conspiracy has no space in natural science, there is enough room for that at politics...

    no doubt, an interesting study with positive and negative hints for future research, but the statistical approach has its benefits (many discoverys base on that) and weaknesses like the depth of the data eg dosage - maybe the increased stroke rate had something to do with high doses...
    Does anyone know what the usual usage method in a hospital is? guessing it's edibles or how common is weed smoking at US hospitals :D ? - the study has a time frame of 2007 till 2011 so it probably changed a bit since, oil pens and so on...
     
  8. little maggie

    little maggie Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it's an older study. But almost all the other studies I've seen that use this method and are done by medical researchers only provide negative data about cannabis use. Hopefully this study will lead to newer and more reliable research.
     
  9. howie105

    howie105 Well-Known Member

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    1,213
    Its a funny perception thing, you are right we all usually agree that apples fall to earth but what if they are on the moon or in zero gravity. People have a funny way of seeing, believing and defending whatever it is they want. My approach is let folks go their own way because enlightening folks often turns into useless circular debate.

    I didn't mean to introduce the concept of conspiracy into the discussion, my apologies?
     
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  10. Used2use

    Used2use Landrace racer

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    would be no trouble even with good old newton, same for the planet falling on the apple - but there is still the probabillity of a snake giving the apple to adam and eve before it falls :D yes, senseless circular debate...

    no sorry that wasn't directed towards you - it's more a common stereotype that is used far too often to make false claims look credible, some people claim to have witnessed such things even at presidential debates ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  11. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    What a great thread, been meaning to catch up on this finally doing it. But for now I will say that I am for sure in the camp that all cannabis use is medical, even if you don't know it at the time you're using it.

    I disagree, even the bible is full of canna-inspiration (jump to MARIJUANA AS THE CHRISTIAN SACRAMENT).

    [​IMG]
    I'll just leave this here for now :spliff:
     
  12. little maggie

    little maggie Well-Known Member

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    I thought this was kind of a joke. But it's not. Apparently there's a lot of data to indicate that in ancient Egypt and Israel cannabis was used medicinally and recreationally. And there's references in the bible and talmud. But it's banned in both countries now. Interesting info grokit.
     
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  13. EverythingsHazy

    EverythingsHazy Well-Known Member

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    So is all opioid use medical? Just because something as medical effects, doesn't mean it's use can't be for recreational purposes ("recreational use"). Adding the word "use" to the terms "recreational"/"medical" indicated that you're referring to the purpose of its use.

    Something being in the Bible doesn't mean it is more connected to humans. Sheep are mentioned in the Bible. They are not more connected to humans than rats or ferrets or moles.

    Also I doubt most of those quotes are about Cannabis. One is about alcohol, one is about grapes, one mentions a plant that fruits every month (Cannabis doesn't), etc.. they're a lot of reaching there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  14. little maggie

    little maggie Well-Known Member

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    I usually agree with your posts and I do agree about opoids. But apparently there is quite a bit of info out there- especially by biblical scholars- that indicate that cannabis was used within the culture and is in the old testament. I don't know if the specific posts grokit mentioned are the ones that talk about cannabis but they have been studied. And just because something was used by people thousands of years ago doesn't mean it is healthy. But it is in the old testament. I guess how one views that depends on how literally someone takes the bible. Which I don't.
     
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  15. EverythingsHazy

    EverythingsHazy Well-Known Member

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    I don't doubt that Cannabis was used in those times, or even that it might be in the Bible under different names, but I don't believe that those specific quotes were mostly about Cannabis.

    I also don't believe that just because the Bible says that something is good, that it is. There is a lot of brutal stuff in the Bible that anyone with common sense would condemn these days, and then you'll also find stuff like the teaching that eating shellfish is an abomination.

    According to the Bible, evolution didn't happen. Are we going to use that book to scientifically validate the opinion that Cannabis is more closely connected to the human species than other plants?
     
  16. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    It's very useful if used properly. In fact, it may be the oldest & most powerful medicine we know of :tup:

    "Opium is mentioned in the most important medical texts of the ancient world, including the Ebers Papyrus and the writings of Dioscorides, Galen, and Avicenna. Widespread medical use of unprocessed opium continued through the American Civil War before giving way to morphine and its successors..."

    Opiates are the only substance that will disconnect the mind from the central nervous system, and besides pain can they can be very helpful for anxiety, insomnia, and emotional support & balance. Precisely because it's so difficult to get an opiate prescription for any condition besides acute pain, some suffering people end up self-medicating with heroin. Their usage would be completely safe if their dosage was supervised by a doctor, with less side-effects than ssri's or 'atypical anti-pstchotics', two common anxiety drug classes.

    :sherlock:
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  17. EverythingsHazy

    EverythingsHazy Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I am not against opioid use, nor am I saying it doesn't have very useful medical potential. What I am saying, is that using it to get stoned isn't what I'd classify as "medical use". I'd consider that "recreational use" of a drug that has medical potential.
     
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  18. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    I understand your perspective @EverythingsHazy, but still wonder why medical use, and enjoyment of any substance has to be mutually exclusive. Why can't we enjoy our medicine? It makes me think of a certain flying nanny with her spoonful of sugar, cannabis is way better for you than sugar is, so, um ... what was I talking about again? It's been too long since I've last medicated, so I'll have to get back to you on that.
    ;)

    [​IMG]

    Right but alcohol is a neurotoxin, while cannabis has neuroprotective properties :tup:

    Sorry for the late replies, still catching up!

    :sherlock:
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
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  19. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    Opioids are one tool in the medical toolbox, and they have a place for serious serious pain etc.
    The trouble is that many docs use it as a primary tool, where many conditions don't need this level of power and this level of fatal side effects.

    On an average day in the U.S.: More than 650,000 opioid prescriptions dispensed.
    Source: IMS Health National Prescription Audit1 / SAMHSA National Survey on Drug Use and Health2 / CDC National Vital Statistics System3

    That is 237,000,000 opioid prescriptions in a year. What happened to the "do no harm" mantra? Way overkill and this does kill thousands :(

    What is the strength of current med practice? Acute care;
    Acute care is a branch of secondary health care where a patient receives active but short-term treatment for a severe injury or episode of illness, an urgent medical condition, or during recovery from surgery.

    Our acute care is generally excellent. Installing heart stents is almost an outpatient task :)

    Our preventative medicine is bad though. We seem to have the very little emphasis on prevention and cannabis is showing itself to be a superb preventative /wellness agent. This is where all med cannabis programs fall short and why we need full legal.
    Try applying for a med cannabis program where you want to micro-dose for wellness, to tune your own ECS, so your body systems work toward homeostasis . Reject that app...
     
  20. little maggie

    little maggie Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there's any objection to people enjoying their meds. But I think it's a stretch to say that it has medicinal effects for every recreational user whether they know it or not.
     
  21. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    Location:
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    Europe gives addicts a safe space to medicate, with medically supervised and controlled dosages that do reduce harm, much better than anything we've tried. Of course our methods are much more exploitative, and therefore profitable. What we do is over-correct every couple of decades so we can 'help' the patients caught up in the crossfire. If you're an opiate manufacturer you can't make a profit because the patents are all played out, but you have the most physically addictive drug known to humanity. So how about spinning off franchised pain management and addiction rehab facilities, there's much more profit in that. And of course all of the drug warriors need something else to hone in on now, with cannabis being legalized.

    :tinfoil:
     
  22. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead trance-form

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    "An apple a day keeps the doctor away"
     
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  23. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    Since we have gone in so many directions on this thread I fell it is safe to say we know of the medical qualities in cannabis yet remain to not know ( learning) how much and what types are for You... Yes= Respect the Herb lest it Not serve You and Be Grateful that plants are here to help Humanity - Peace

    For myself, this is personal... if i do not reach a place of moderate stone I do not benefit from the pain reducing qualities I seek from the bush... that is not to say that i take that approach every time I use cannabis, sometimes it's just a slight bump and others a direct Slam! When I'm sitting there in a full body stone it is what i was after when the pain was to much...

    Medical insurance companies have Raped the idea of preventive medicine! Even though insurance is based on preventive harms they got the preventive medicine part wrong
     
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  24. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    777
    I received an email from our medical insurance company (Anthem) touting how awesome they are at fighting the opioid crisis.

    Their plan was:
    Our company was among the first to limit benefits for short-acting opioids and set up programs to monitor longer periods of use. The aim was to reduce prescriptions for these drugs and prevent accidental addiction.​

    Mission accomplished!
    We've just reached our collective goal of reducing prescribed opioids filled at pharmacies by 30 percent - nearly two years earlier than originally projected.

    Insurance companies saving money by not providing benefits! They don't do it for profits, they do it because they care.
     
  25. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    I've come up with terminology to explain the plant cannabinoids ( therapeutically active molecular compounds IE crystals!) as non harmful and safely as possible... That would be -... Free Form Cannabinoids...( FFC)
    Think very very small little tiny particles that enter in and out of cells, there are unknown amounts of surface receptor channels ( CB) on each and every cell in you. We have identified CB1 and CB2 receptor potential and the mechanistic action but have not characterized the mass potential of all the receptors... our own cellular receptor channels ( endocannabinoid receptors) identify with endogenous cannabinoids (endocannabinoids) that are bio-synthesized @ the exact moment they are needed.. We make these endogenous cb signalling agents from arachidonic acid that is supplemental applied through Food we eat- most importantly correct Omega 3 to 6 ratios in the amounts required to supply the cascade of lipid hydrolyzed proteins ( http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/G_protein-coupled_receptor.html ) ( http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Lipid.html ) leading to calcium influx IE cannabinoid signaling......

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachidonic_acid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid_interactions

    https://www.nap.edu/read/24625/chapter/1
    https://www.nap.edu/read/24625/chapter/4

    below quote used from nap links so as to explain secondary metabolites IE cannabinoids ^ - for reference AEA is Anandamide = THC which activates cb1 receptor and 2-AG = CBD which modulates CB2 receptor

    "Multiple human and animal studies support that endocannabinoids play a key role in memory, mood, brain reward systems, drug addiction, and metabolic processes, such as lipolysis, glucose metabolism, and energy balance. [5]


    Several competing pathways for AEA biosynthesis have been described. The best-described pathway is shown in the figure below. AEA biosynthesis is initiated following a postsynaptic neuronal depolarization and an influx of calcium. The calcium then activates N- acylphosphatidylethanolamine-hydrolyzing phospholipase D (NAPE-PLD) and diacylglycerol (DAG) lipase, each of which forms AEA and 2-AG, respectively. [4, 6] The anterograde neurotransmitter transmission and retrograde EC modulation form the closed signaling loop depicted in the figure below."


    Cannabis plant species creates plant cannabinoids for it's own biological purposes. Because of this fundamental plant biological structure we can benefit from those supplemental cannabinoids upon ingestion as Free Form Cannabinoids( FFC) ... the plant cannabinoids represent a bio-mimicry shape specific structure that signals the Human endogenous receptor pathways .. upon ingestion plant cannabinoids stay bound to fat until they become metabolized at the receptor ion channel unlike endocannabinoids that get synthesized for use on demand...
    utilizing the already created structures refers to the free form ( FFC) I am emphasizing here... IMO If our diets were not so out of balance with incorrect ratio omega 3 to 6 balance etc... we would not even notice a buzz from cannabis because our receptors would be firing naturally @ all times...




    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5006560/
    " For example, terpenes such as α-pinene and limonene provide characteristic organoleptic (taste and aroma) profiles in cannabis strains, but may also contribute to pharmacological profiles through their actions at transient receptor potential channels or other biochemical enzymes or substrates, including cannabinoid receptors (β-caryophyllene is an example); hence the current interest in terpenes."


    http://www.cmcr.ucsd.edu/index.php
    https://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/notice-files/not99-091.html

    Cannabis Constituents- this study shows over 750 secondary metabolites
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=To+date,+...tituents+encompasses+numerous+p&t=ffcm&ia=web


    to explain diet and cannabis as secondary metabolites
    https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Secondary_metabolite#cite_note-1

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bph.13676/full#references

    http://themodern.farm/studies/Omega-3 Deficiancy Abolish Endocannabinoid Function.pdf

    Thanks goes Out To Raphael Mechoulam for this article on how cannabis molecules started neuro sciences-dedicated = to the person who slammed this thread!
    http://www.beyondthc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/eCBSystemLee.pdf

    to show what it is exactly that cannabis molecules signal....
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Structure/mmdb/mmdbsrv.cgi?Dopt=s&uid=144618


    A great person to explain it to You- He's a Biochemist and cure himself with cannabis

    https://patients4medicalmarijuana.wordpress.com/how-cannabinoids-kill-cancer-dennis-hill/

    And what he wrote...
    http://incrediblehealingjournals.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cytokine-Cascade-by-Dennis-Hill.pdf

    explained too..
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24858620

    More on mitochondria activity
    http://www.jneurosci.org/content/29/7/2053.long
    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/307/1/E1

    cool study on pain and vaping away pain
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3566631/

    some lite reading on CBD
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5441138/

    petition back in 2013 for cannabis medical studies

    http://media.wix.com/ugd/b72a4e_e88348b93436e74dea366be39a6b47e2.pdf

    I could go on for days linking these but I digress for a while LOL Enjoy!
     

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