What do Californians (and the rest) think of AUMA?

Gunky

Well-Known Member
The measure is a crazy monstrosity which tries to answer all questions and fails all over the place. What we need now is a one page measure that everyone understands which can then be built on and developed organically and in response to experience, not this trick sprung full grown from the head of some damned lawyers like Athena out of Zeus.

Something like this:
aba169_957ed44e8550412a8236580540196bd1.png
 
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syrupy

Authorized Buyer
The measure is a crazy monstrosity which tries to answer all questions and fails all over the place. What we need now is a one page measure that everyone understands which can then be built on and developed organically and in response to experience, not this trick sprung full grown from the head of some damned lawyers like Athena out of Zeus.

Something like this:
aba169_957ed44e8550412a8236580540196bd1.png

Context? Is this some sort of hope for a federal law? I'm guessing it's California-specific, since that's the topic of this thread? If it is supposed to apply to California, I have some questions about it. If it's just general hopes, then that's fine.

#1. How could a state law repeal federal law that states cannabis is illegal? It's one thing to give rights to medical users, but it's a bit much to outright repeal federal law from the state level. Currently, the state is allowing activity that federal law does not. Side-stepping federal law is different than repealing it.

#2. Which "activities" have criminal penalties. It's so broadly stated, it has no real meaning.

#3. Also, very broadly written. No limits to how much can be grown and distributed? Are we talking selling or giving away? It's not stated.

#4. This can't be serious? Taking away the doctor's right to recommend MJ and forcing it into "prescription" status? Lots of doctors would lose their licenses, and the whole operation would have to be managed by the Board of Pharmacy. Huge government involvement in this proposal.

Not meaning to be picky, it's just that in law, it's all about the details. Feel-good ideas like the Bill of Rights above, sound great, but might be problematic to implement.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
Well, if that looks dicey to you, take a look at what's on the ballot. Total hot mess of a boondoggle for big cannabis which does next to nothing for consumers and fucks up medical something serious.
 
Gunky,
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syrupy

Authorized Buyer
Oh, I agree, the proposed law has loopholes big enough to drive a truck through. I'm not against "big cannabis". I think it comes with the territory when legalizing adult use. The sheer numbers of people who would be legally seeking herb would overwhelm the current medical infrastructure. Forgive the crude analogy--Sam Adams can't make enough beer for everyone, but SAB Miller can.
 
syrupy,

Gunky

Well-Known Member
Oh, I agree, the proposed law has loopholes big enough to drive a truck through. I'm not against "big cannabis". I think it comes with the territory when legalizing adult use. The sheer numbers of people who would be legally seeking herb would overwhelm the current medical infrastructure. Forgive the crude analogy--Sam Adams can't make enough beer for everyone, but SAB Miller can.
I don't have a problem with large producers either. I have a problem with large producers nobbling small producers, which is what this does.
 
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thisperson

Ruler of all things person
Right now anyone with a medical condition can apply for a 99 plant licence and grow as much weed as they need. That blog Gunky linked details how the language of Prop 64 would repeal the accepted growing numbers of prop 215. It's scary. Fuck that. No way am I codifying that into law.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
I got the link from J-bug. The language in the measure says nothing in such and such paragraph will override existing medical regulation but then the significant limits turn out to be not in that paragraph. They are somewhere else in the document in locations which do not have such a caveat, ergo we are fucked. I admit it is pretty hard slog to read through the argument in that blog because of the stupid, devious language they used to draft the measure, but this should be required reading. There is a huge problem in the language and the measure does not protect existing medical the way proponents are claiming.
 
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thisperson

Ruler of all things person
To be honest Gunky, I think we are screwed. Think about it. how many people just buy their weed? The consumer will prevail and get recreational while sacrificing the connosiouer, the geneticist and the home grower
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
To be honest Gunky, I think we are screwed. Think about it. how many people just buy their weed? The consumer will prevail and get recreational while sacrificing the connosiouer, the geneticist and the home grower
I know and people go on about don't worry this is just a temp fix... Uhuh. A temp fix that requires a super majority in the legislature to fix the fix. Like that's gonna happen. If we could get a super majority in the legislature we wouldn't need a referendum to legalize recreational. It's an insurmountable hurdle pretending to be a pressure valve. By the time the valve blows the whole pot is broken.

We're being presented with this extremely deceptive pig in a poke, a Trojan horse of a measure that virtually no one has completely read. Many of the parts that we have looked at carefully suck. The 2/3 majority to amend is a pretense; the only way to amend it is another referendum. Why did they set it up that way? So that by the time small growers (and a general public that benefits from having small growers) realize they have been dealt out of the industry it will be too late.
 
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MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
To be honest Gunky, I think we are screwed. Think about it. how many people just buy their weed? The consumer will prevail and get recreational while sacrificing the connosiouer, the geneticist and the home grower
......................................................................
I'm not in CA but very interested in legal issues everywhere!!!

I truly hope that if this passes, there is room for the big growers AND the craft connoisseur grower.
- Big growers knocking out very potent, very clean, less expensive and less expensive buds as competition and huge supply by-passes demand. Price should be between current dispensary pricing and the price of fresh herbs at the market---so like half of current prices.
- Craft growers to continue their ultra high end buds at a price above mass market bud, but still less expensive than top shelf bud today.....
- hopefully states see the light on home grows too. WTF, you can brew beer/wine/spirits at home and they kill thousands and thousands. And most folks won't go thru all the work needed to grow at home
 
MinnBobber,

syrupy

Authorized Buyer
Right now anyone with a medical condition can apply for a 99 plant licence and grow as much weed as they need. That blog Gunky linked details how the language of Prop 64 would repeal the accepted growing numbers of prop 215. It's scary. Fuck that. No way am I codifying that into law.

Not exactly, I think. Many counties have restricted the number of plants or growing altogether. The 99 plant "license" is a farce in my opinion, and has no actual legal basis, and won't help a grower in court either. I know two people who were duped into thinking the 99 plant license would save their bacon. Both were wrong.
 
I'm sorry, but if you had read and understood the details, you wouldn't be saying the things you say. If observing that is impolite, so be it. And here you go again, refusing to look at the details. You are squinting your eyes until everything is rosy and out of focus. Legal marijuana! (never mind the details).


You know it is entirely possible to read the article you posted (which I did a month ago or so) and for people actually to disagree with it. I read it and I just disagree with her assessment on some of the issues though it is a fairly detailed analysis. If you want to do breeding for the medical market, or the recreational market, then you have to get a license. If you are doing it for personal interest then you will have to be just as careful to avoid being busted as you are now. There is nothing in 215 or SB420 that allows a grower to grow hundreds of plants to do breeding programs UNLESS you are growing for a collective.

Local control already exists now and Prop 64 doesn't change that. In fact THAT is one of the details that may get it passed by those who don't enjoy cannabis now, but are willing for it to be legal in in the state. I personally spoke with a city councilperson where I live who said she might vote for it, but wanted the city council to be able to decide if, when, and how much commercial activity might be allowed in the city. For medical patients prop 215/SB420 should still be controlling.

What's so hard to understand about that? CCHI was truly a "pipe-dream". 99 plants? No local control? Just never gonna get that passed by the electorate unless you live in cannabis paradise (which doesn't exist anywhere yet, and probably never will.) I find that there are way many more reasons to vote for 64 than not. Is it perfect? Nothing in this world created by mankind is fucking perfect!! If you want to wait for perfect, well, then hell will freeze over first. I always thought that MCLR was a better, more balanced proposition, but it didn't have the support nor make it to the ballot. So we get to vote on a legalization measure that isn't perfect, but is a step forward. The conversation, the fight for full rights, will continue in the public discourse and in the legislature as various interests try to get changes to 64 as soon as it passes (if it does.) It will create a huge groundswell of opinion in the world when the 6th largest economy votes to legalize production and consumption of what is still highly illegal according to the feds and most countries in the world. We need this to shift public sentiment and discourse to allow more freedom. Baby steps folks. That's how it happens.

For those still undecided get some facts:
http://www.legalizeca2016.com/facts

http://www.canorml.org/Cal_NORML_Guide_to_AUMA
"AUMA will not be the last word on marijuana reform; further changes in state and federal law will be needed to guarantee affordable medical access, protect employment and housing rights, facilitate banking and allow interstate commerce. Regardless of these problems, AUMA compares favorably to similar legalization measures in other states. If California voters approve AUMA, the pressure for federal marijuana law reform could finally become irresistible to politicians in Washington; if not, it will no doubt be interpreted as a major setback for marijuana reform at the national level."

http://humboldtnorml.org/2016/08/26...on-proposition-64-auma-pros-and-cons-draft-1/

... and of course this is just IMHO.

.........................................
edit to add content from my 2nd post. Guess I worked on the first too long and didn't notice the posting order:


Yeah, I like Ed Rosenthal too. What you have posted is a skeleton to lead the way. But who fleshes all that out? "Civil authority and regulation"? Who gets to define that? Local cities? Counties? or the State? We should all be able to grow our own, but how much? Unlimited amounts for "personal" consumption? Medical marijuana (whole plant) recommendation treated the same as a prescription? That's a pipedream that demonstrates wishful thinking and no understanding of the development and practice of western evidence-based medicine that is not going to change anytime soon. Since I worked in acute care hospitals for 40 years as an RN I understand that. We have to deal with what is, not with what we wish things would be. The dream propels activity that will accomplish the goal, but we cant get confused about dreams and current reality.
 
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j-bug

Well-Known Member
A minor point of information. In California medical cannabis patients currently have no grow limits for personal use. This was established by a state court ruling and currently carries the rule of law in the state.
 
j-bug,

Gunky

Well-Known Member
A minor point of information. In California medical cannabis patients currently have no grow limits for personal use. This was established by a state court ruling and currently carries the rule of law in the state.
I believe localities can and do restrict plant numbers currently.

The whole plant number restriction makes no sense. Right now hundreds of doctors, perhaps thousands, are handing out letters of recommendation in CA to anybody who shows up with some dough, is over 18 etc. They can do that confidently because cannabis is one of the least toxic plants out there for human beings to consume. So now we have come to the point where we are finally going to admit in our laws that this thing is harmless. Why would we then treat it like contraband and say you can only have 28 grams of it at a time and no more than six plants (unless you are a big producer)? Why? Why can't I have 200 plants in my home if I want to? There simply is no good reason why. If I can have an ounce, why not two ounces? Why is one ounce ok but two lands me in jail? That isn't legalizing it; it's decriminalizing up to one ounce. The limits are idiotic and we don't have them for alcohol which unlike cannabis is actually dangerous and toxic in large doses. They don't say you can have six grape vines but not seven. This is all window dressing to disguise a power play by corporate powers and organized crime trying to shove out all the small players. They are buying off the public with this cheap sham of legalized recreational marijuana. So after decades of persecuting us and jailing us for weed, now powerful interests are wresting control of weed away from small growers - stiffing them and assuring them they can now have six whole plants! - and handing it over to a cartel of opportunistic big outfits. These monied corporate bastards can have as many plants as they want. But if you want to grow in your back yard, you can only have six at a time. And we are supposed to celebrate this as legalization. Yeah, thanks a lot. This is not better than what we have now.
 
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MinnBobber

Well-Known Member
The whole plant number restriction makes no sense.

Plant restrictions make no sense from a neutral perspective, nor from a side effects perspective, but they make perfect sense from a greed perspective.
The state(s) don't want to give up tax money that would be lost by grow your own operations. The dispensaries don't want to give up/lose customers to the DIY crowd.
As always, greed trumps good sense and a reasonable approach so..... enter grow limits :(

Grow limits make as much sense as other cannabis BS restrictions, like Minnesota's $200 per year MMJ reg fee, for a meager MMJ program. There's no sense in charging $200 per year to obtain medical cannabis but they do it, cuz they can.....
 
MinnBobber,

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
A minor point of information. In California medical cannabis patients currently have no grow limits for personal use. This was established by a state court ruling and currently carries the rule of law in the state.
The "grow limit" under law is what is reasonable for personal use. (Absent claim of collective.) Believe me, case law does not let the user decide what he needs. If the state disagrees, the facts go to the purported reasonable person (judge or jury) to decide.

Local limits are at:
http://www.canorml.org/medical-marijuana/local-growing-limits-in-California

There they address the changes that went into effect this year. (2016) Obviously, the law has not worked its way through the courts yet, but CA-NORMAL opines:

Absent a local ordinance, state law will allow 100 square feet of medical cannabis for a patient, and allow caregivers to grow 500 square feet for up to five patients. State licensing for commercial-sized medical marijuana farms is allowable under the new law, provided locals approve. Existing entities can operate with local approval until January 1, 2018.
 
Tranquility,

thisperson

Ruler of all things person
Not exactly, I think. Many counties have restricted the number of plants or growing altogether. The 99 plant "license" is a farce in my opinion, and has no actual legal basis, and won't help a grower in court either. I know two people who were duped into thinking the 99 plant license would save their bacon. Both were wrong.

Those restrictions are a joke. When my county banned, no one listened. I even know of a cop who knows of a local grow and hasn't done anything.

Also, however fictional that 99 plant rec may be according to law and you, I know two people with it and their harvest are anything but fictional. They don't try to start a business. If pressed they'll sell/give to friends and be caregivers, but they haven't had any problems. And one of those 99 grows is one that the cops know about.

It may not be a full protection against having your kids taken away, or starting a business where it's banned. Or I don't know what situation your friends were in that happened to them. But we're giving up the possibly-legal-possibly-not-99-plant permit that would have maybe allowed you to grow and harvest 99. Which is way better than any strict 6 plant limit.

It's no choice to me. Keep the squiggly line that permits 99, or only 6 for everyone who's not a business.
 
thisperson,

Tranquility

Well-Known Member
This morning, the AP in the local paper ran the results of a poll on the initiative. It called it a toss-up with 51% of "likely voters" voting to pass the initiative with 9% undecided.
 
Tranquility,

Gunky

Well-Known Member
I suspect that it will pass. Not because it's a good measure but because people are ready for legalization in CA and they don't understand the impact of this thing. For some reason you don't see much discussion of the pros and cons of this in the news. Proponents say it won't change medical but a closer look at the text indicates it will and not in a small way. It's designed to winnow out all the small players whether medical or recreational. There is a reason why many growers don't want this and it's not because of the taxes - taxes are already going up regardless. This thing privileges large corporate grow schemes and puts the small guy out of the biz. Unfortunately over-regulation was already in the wind and any commercial producers are now going to be forced to get licenses and cope with expensive regs. This is already in the pipeline. We dreamed of a golden age of relaxed regulation of weed in CA; turned out it was the last 20 years and is about to end.
 
Those restrictions are a joke. When my county banned, no one listened. I even know of a cop who knows of a local grow and hasn’t done anything.

Also, however fictional that 99 plant rec may be according to law and you, I know two people with it and their harvest are anything but fictional. They don’t try to start a business. If pressed they’ll sell/give to friends and be caregivers, but they haven’t had any problems. And one of those 99 grows is one that the cops know about.

It may not be a full protection against having your kids taken away, or starting a business where it’s banned. Or I don’t know what situation your friends were in that happened to them. But we’re giving up the possibly-legal-possibly-not-99-plant permit that would have maybe allowed you to grow and harvest 99. Which is way better than any strict 6 plant limit.

It’s no choice to me. Keep the squiggly line that permits 99, or only 6 for everyone who’s not a business.

First of all, if you are a recreational user you can’t legally grow diddlysquat.

Let’s review a little history to set the record straight regarding medical cannabis grows, transports and sales.

The 99 plant limit is what Sonoma County and possibly other counties allowed before SB420 (in 2004) established a limit of 12 immature and 6 mature plants as a “guideline” primarily for law enforcement to NOT arrest and prosecute legitimate patients. Prop 215 puts no specific limit on the number of plants, it just says it’s intent is

To ensure that seriously ill Californians have the right to obtain and use marijuana for medical purposes where the medical use is deemed appropriate and has been recommended by a physician who has determined that the person’s health would benefit from the use of marijuana...”

Prop 215 also has this intent:
To encourage the federal and state governments to implement a plan to provide for the safe and affordable distribution of marijuana to all patients in medical need of marijuana.​


So as a result SB420 was passed in 2004 and MMRSA was passed in 2015 by the state legislature to regulate cannabis growing, transporting and selling for medical purposes.


SB420 says:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_0401-0450/sb_420_bill_20031012_chaptered.html


11362.77. (a) A qualified patient or primary caregiver may possess no more than eight ounces of dried marijuana per qualified patient. In addition, a qualified patient or primary caregiver may also maintain no more than six mature or 12 immature marijuana plants per qualified patient.

(b) If a qualified patient or primary caregiver has a doctor’s

recommendation that this quantity does not meet the qualified patient’s medical needs, the qualified patient or primary caregiver may

possess an amount of marijuana consistent with the patient’s needs.


and this:

“(d) In addition to the requirements of this article, the Attorney

General shall develop and adopt appropriate guidelines to ensure the

security and nondiversion of marijuana grown for medical use by patients qualified under the Compassionate Use Act of 1996.”


Which leads to this missive from then AG Edmund G. Brown in 2008 called “GUIDELINES FOR THE SECURITY AND NON-DIVERSION OF MARIJUANA GROWN FOR MEDICAL USE”:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://ag.ca.gov/cms_attachments/press/pdfs/n1601_medicalmarijuanaguidelines.pdf

“The possession, sale, cultivation, or transportation of marijuana is ordinarily a crime under California law. (See, e.g., § 11357 [possession of marijuana is a misdemeanor]; § 11358 [cultivation of marijuana is a felony]; Veh. Code, § 23222 [possession of less than 1 oz. of marijuana while driving is a misdemeanor]; § 11359 [possession with intent to sell any amount of marijuana is a felony]; § 11360 [transporting, selling, or giving away marijuana in California is a felony; under 28.5 grams is a misdemeanor]; § 11361 [selling or distributing marijuana to minors, or using a minor to transport, sell, or give away marijuana, is a felony].)”​


and


“c) Proposition 215: Qualified patients claiming protection under Proposition 215 may possess an amount of marijuana that is “reasonably related to [their] current medical needs.” (People v. Trippet (1997) 56 Cal.App.4th 1532, 1549.)”​


Under MCRSA, passed in Oct 2015:

http://www.canorml.org/news/A_SUMMARY_OF_THE_MEDICAL_MARIJUANA_REGULATION_AND_SAFETY_ACT


“… which took effect Jan. 1, 2016, qualified patients can cultivate up to 100 square feet for personal medical use, and primary caregivers with five or fewer patients are allowed up to 500 square feet.”​


All those crimes listed above in the AG’s summary will be revoked with Prop 64 except that possession of more than an ounce, in public, will remain a misdemeanor. You can sell if you have a license to sell from both the state and local agency, or you can give away up to an ounce (the amount you may possess in public.) Transporting, selling or giving cannabis to minors will still be against the law.

New edit after reading @Gunky :
We dreamed of a golden age of relaxed regulation of weed in CA; turned out it was the last 20 years and is about to end.

The golden age you speak of is full of fraud and untruth because too many MDs run "letter of recommendation" mills without real concern or follow-up with their "patients." That part of the unregulated medical market is a farce. Legalization will separate the real patients from the otherwise healthy 20 to 35 yo males I see in dispensaries all the time. I believe in the wellness effects of cannabis and believe it should be available to anyone who wants to use it without having to jump through hoops of falsehood and slight-of-hand. I'm a medical patient but I like the euphoria of THC as much as anybody. Even Prop 215 anticipated a time when the state and feds would oversee the regulation of access. Legalization doesn't mean unrestricted access. But if I can grow 12 immature or 6 mature plants and produce 6 or 12 or 15 pounds per year for my personal consumption I will be giving it away by the ounce because I only consume 0.1gm/day myself. I understand that those patients who need FECO may need to utilize several pounds a year, but that is high consumption that most patients and recreational users do not need. Prop 215 called for "safe and affordable distribution" regulated by the states and feds. "Affordable" is really only achieved by the economies of scale that a capitalist environment and farmers of large grows can provide. There will always be a niche for the small growers of the Emerald Triangle as long as they come out of the darkness and get licenses and follow regulations. Boutique brands will always command a higher proce, just as in the wine industry. You've got your Screaming Eagle for $1000/bottle and your 2-buck Chuck at Trader Joes. As a health care professional I see a very big need for safety of the medicine proven by testing for contaminants and pesticides as well as cannabinoid potency profiles. Some outlets voluntarily do that now, but too many don't.
 
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Gunky

Well-Known Member
Some jurisdictions, such as Oakland, have long had more relaxed laws and looser limits, allowing bigger grows, greater plant limits, and possession of greater amounts. Presumably this won't change regardless of the outcome of the election because the enforcing agencies in places like Oakland are following the local ordinances and directives.
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
A response to the Dragonfly de la Luz article denouncing Prop 64 from Chris Conrad. Read it all -
http://connectionmagz.com/santacruz/prop-64-marijuana-legalization-chris-conrad/
The Chris Conrad article is extremely lame! He just repeats the same falsehoods! He does not answer the criticisms in the De la Luz article, merely glosses over the points with vague promises not borne out by the text. This makes me mad. It's dishonest. You can verify this for yourself by reference to the prop 64 text.
Money and marijuana: Donors with ties to industry give to legalize pot
 
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Gunky,

looney2nz

Research Geek, Mad Scientist
Some jurisdictions, such as Oakland, have long had more relaxed laws and looser limits, allowing bigger grows, greater plant limits, and possession of greater amounts. Presumably this won't change regardless of the outcome of the election because the enforcing agencies in places like Oakland are following the local ordinances and directives.

the doctor writing the rec is allowed to note a higher than 'normal' limit.
 
looney2nz,
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