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Vaporizing Tobacco (not e-cigs)

Discussion in 'Vaporizables' started by vtac, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    1. I prefer pure Orientals just cured and fine cut, neither cased nor topped. I bear occasionally with some Virginia in mix and, rarely, Latakia. I avoid Burley and its derrivatives.
    2. I dry tobacco well and then moisten it back again with VG(70%)/PG(30%). Tobacco to “sauce” proportions are 60 to 40 by weight. The trick is to moisten uniformly while not to crumble brittle tobacco much. Minor (60 C) heating and gentle stirring are the keys.
    3. I do prefer convection vapes - Lotus, FF2. I bear with hybrids - Mighty, CFX. I avoid conduction vapes, even greatest of them, like Vapcap and Air. I pack bowl loosely to further improve convection and reduce conduction.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
    dr_no and Kocmo like this.
  2. Hansha

    Hansha New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Slovenia
    Thanx Xelatsok,

    that sound a rather elaborate process which might be a bit against my likes and capabilities ...

    Is there a reason why a tobacco moistened with good old H2O would not work well? Of course not in a 60 / 40 ratio, but simple as a well moist tobacco ...

    And, convection because you find the vape is more satisfying or because of possible health effects?
     
  3. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    Water goes against vaporization actually, holding load temp too low until water is evaporated. Then vaporization begins - whispy vapor with some flavor, this is how any pure tobacco vapes.

    Both VG and PG make clouds, while PG also is a solvent and carrier for components flavor consists of. Adding them both, I have thick tasty satisfactorily clouds. This is why I elaborate with some tobacco processing. BTW, ratios may vary, say tobacco / sauce as 2 / 1 and VG / PG as 90 / 10.

    Why not to mix VG/PG to tobacco when it is pliable? Why not to dry water out then? Sauce will not let tobacco to dry easily. Even if you succeed, sauce will dry out too.

    Is there easier way? Yep. Try tobacco already cased with PG, say most of aromatics pipe blends. I began with them and liked Captain Black Royal and Mac Baren 7 Seas Regular. Then I developed taste to more natural tobacco and disgust for artificial flavoring.

    Convection is both healthier and tastier according to my experience. All my friends (7-8) who tried think the same.
     
  4. Hansha

    Hansha New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Slovenia
    Yes, the amount of humectant in tobacco changes things dramatically. I experienced this with Pueblo vs Camel RYO back to back smoking. While the pepper dry Pueblo had close to no clouds, the Camel was really thick.

    The only problem with Camel was the fast gunk build and occasional very hard hits when the device is not very clean. The vapor paths in PAX 3 can carry the nicotine soaked humectant into the mouth ... And the mouthpiece pops out due to VG. There are certainly a few things PAX could have built better.

    So after I read all that I bought a Crafty, thinking that it will be nice for domestic vaping. Now, I don't know if It's me doing something wrong, but I can not seem to get any vapor with crafty using same tobacco PAX 3 produces quite nice vapor with. I tried 2 bowl, one loosely packed the other firmly. After that I just stoped and wrote to the merchant I bought it at in hope I could exchange it ...

    Now the shop is silent - guess I will have to give them a call making clear I am aware of my consumer rights ... I wonder if such Crafty behaviour is normal or is me that's failing?

    As for preparing tobacco with humectant - I am fully convinced you are right. If there was some spray to apply it easily that wouldn't be that much strain ...

    I am also waiting for some natural orientals to arrive. I would buy that one from the Russian store too, but I can not find a store that had an english, german or french interface ...

    Cheers
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  5. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    What temp did you use with Crafty?
    My Mighty produce some vapor from 150 C and good one at 170 C. This is with 33% - 40% of sauce though.
     
    Kocmo likes this.
  6. Kocmo

    Kocmo New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Hey Slovenia,
    Ordering from USA or Russia you will have to pay VAT and excise duty (arm, leg and a kidney).
    There are quite a few great tobaccos available in EU. In fact the best prices and greatest variety could be found in Germany.
    For pure, blending Orientals (Izmir) i would recommend you to try
    Torben Dansk:
    https://www.pfeifendepot.de/shop/ta...tobacco/torben-dansk-orient-spezialitaet-50g/
    or
    Robert McConnell:
    https://www.pfeifendepot.de/shop/ta...bert-mcconnell/robert-mcconnell-oriental-50g/

    Some other sites that ship internationally:
    Annonces from Germany:
    http://annonces.de/Shop/cgi-bin/his-webshop.cgi?t=Pfeifentabak_1_de

    Tecoh from Germany:
    https://www.tecon-gmbh.de/product_i...=7339&osCsid=2de3ad9c9e86c69486de5965856ad4f2

    Synjeco from Switzerland (this guy is great!):
    http://www.synjeco.ch/pataall/taba/1000.php?i5

    If you want the best Orientals on the planet I would suggest you a trip to Greece - Wolfay tobacco with outlets in Athens and Thessaloniki. Their Izmir (Epos White) and Xanthi Basma (Epos Blue) are exceptional.

    Keep in mind that I haven't actually tried these nor any other tobacco in a vaporizer.

    So many great blends available but I would rather stick with Xelatsok's recommendations. There is some great logic behind them. Oriental tobacco are full of flavour with little sugar/starches and little nicotine.

    This entire thread is a gem.

    People around me were bashing e-cigarettes for years and in a night everyone got one of these little IQOS by PM. I tried a stick and asked myself why does is stink so badly (elephant dung wrapped in paper, placed on a stove)? It doesn't make sense to me. For one the damn think is overheating the stuff - the stick is coming blackened from the device. I doubt they are using quality tobacco in the sticks and also think the temperature is adjusted for maximal extraction of alkaloids, not for taste. PMI website says 350C which, if not a typo (F), is ridiculously high. Pipe smokers say that the optimal temperature for extracting flavour from tobacco is ~80C, so the major part of the pipe learning curve is mastering how to keep a glowing ember on one side of the tobacco without overheating the rest of it. The recommended starting point in this thread 150-170C makes a lot of sense to me - maintaining good flavour and extracting not too much of the alkaloids.

    I googled and the only information with more than a few sentences that I found was this thread.
    But my wallet is trembling in the corner now and before I hit him hard I would like to know:

    Convection vs conduction. Is it that great of a difference?
    Many of the conduction devices just look more convenient to me. I like a replaceable 18650 battery, but taste is my primary concern.

    Is constant stirring needed for the Firefly or is it for weed user only?

    Could you recommend a device for a few short sips and a device for long relaxed, pipe style session?

    I'm so excited finding people that are after pure unadulterated taste of tobacco minus the smoke.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  7. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    Some research on IQOS carried by lab of Russian tobacco manufacturer, for those who can read Russian. TLDR:
    1. Heater temp is 350C indeed, not 350F.
    2. Toxic Furfural is detected in vapor.
    3. It is not tobacco, but homogenized (reconstituted) tobacco. Likely, some Nicotine added artificially.
    Reconstituted tobacco contains crazy amount of TSNAs, which is "one of the most important groups of carcinogens in tobacco products". Just compare to my beloved Orientals.
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    It is.
    I do not stir, tobacco is cheap.
    On-demand: FF2, Lotus, Hammer ($35 now, which is steal).
    For 15-20 minutes pipe style sessions: Air (Solo) with metal bowl wooden stem, say one from Ed's TnT. CFX is good too if you are willing to stir every 5 mins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
    Kocmo likes this.
  9. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    uh, I have to quit smoking at work and looking for a substitute.
    all this talk about e-juice and additives makes me crazy.

    Ok, I am addicted to nicotine.
    How can I consume it the best and easiest when I need it ?

    I thought of a SOLO1 with pueblo pure tobacco.

    Is there something better ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  10. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    https://www.nicorette.com.au/products/quickmist-nicotine-spray
    Or something like this if you’re addicted to nicotine only. I doubt such pure addiction though. Smoking is complex addiction. Do you want to puff some clouds probably? Tasty, flavorful clouds? Choice of tastes? What is the “best” to you?
     
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  11. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    Oh yes,
    it's more than the addiction.
    I like to inhale and play with vapor/smoke

    Right now I am thinking Arizer Solo / Air1-2 and additives free tobacco

    Basically I want to save what is left of my health and do not want to stink anymore.

    Arizer Air seems to best thing I have found so for.
    Only knew it for vaping MJ.

    I once heard that vaping tobacco is very dangerous and can seriously you because there is to much nicotine set free at once.
    A lot of nicotine is, thankfully, lost while combusting.
    true ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
    Kocmo likes this.
  12. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    You are thinking very right :) I am about to get Solo II for my next vape purchase. I am excited on 18 bowls run-time reports.
     
    Kocmo likes this.
  13. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    What about the rumours of vaping tobacco to be more dangerous than smoking it?

    And could a arizer air 1 be good enough?
    Lowest temp is 180 C.
    Noo much for tobacco?
    I am reading 150 C to be the best.
     
  14. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    Start small - tobacco amounts and strength, temperature, bowls per day. Be careful and listen to yourself. Exhale some vapor and pull it back through the nose, repeat twice more. If you do not like it by nose then stop the session.

    Air 1 is good for Oriental and Latakia and it is too hot for Virginia and Virginia derivatives. It is OK for Burley and derivatives and cigar tobaccos, but I do not vape any of these and recommend so.

    Read my previous posts back in the thread for info on tobacco preparation. There is no satisfying vapor from pure tobacco without some preparation.
     
    Kocmo likes this.
  15. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    what about the temps?

    Do I need a vape that can heat to 150C or is a Solo1 or Air2 enough for my Pueblo pure rolling tobacco ?
     
  16. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    Sweet tobaccos, say Virginia and derivatives, need temps around 150C. Others, say Orientals, stand well to 170-180. Eds stems "drops " the effective temp a bit, so Air 1 is just right for some Orientals. I do not know what Pueblo is. It is rolling, thus likely VA/Burley blend.

    And Air2 can do 150C to my knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
    Kocmo likes this.
  17. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    I dont really care for the flavour.
    I just want to get the nicotine and go on with my life. minus the combustion and the stink.

    I have an old Arizer Solo.
    Lowest temp is 185C on level 2.

    Why is vaping tobacco at more than 180C considered more dangerous ?
     
  18. dynospec

    dynospec Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Canada
    @Mr.Sifter I assume because the amount of nicotene released at once increases dramatically, nicotene can be extremely toxic in overdose amounts, and the difference between dose and overdose is not great
     
  19. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    1. Too much nicotine at once.
    2. Sweet tobacco bites and irritates mucous, probably to furfural released due to sugar thermal destruction above 145C.
    3. Some dangerous substances released according to researches I read. I've got no links unfortunately.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
    Kocmo, Mr.Sifter and dynospec like this.
  20. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    ouch,
    thanks for the warning.

    this does not seem practical at all to me.

    maybe i should just try one of those e-cigs to get my nicotine.

    but the people I see with it just look ridiculous to me.
    on the other hand there is no such thing as looking laughable while preserving your health.
    (in relative terms, compared to traditional combusting)

    I only hope that this whole e-cig mambojambo does not bring a bunch of new, undiscovered health problems to the table.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  21. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    Is Philip Morris Iqos or Heets available in your country?
    Easy as cigarettes. Not safest way to vape, but safer than smoking anyway.
    Not tastiest too. But more socially acceptable, less suspicious.

    Update: ecigs are safer than vapes according to some researchs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  22. Mr.Sifter

    Mr.Sifter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    999
    man that heets stuff is expensive.

    As expensive as filter cigarettes in my country.

    @Xelatsok you seem to know the pro and cons.
    What do you think it the savest way to vape nicotine
     
  23. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    219
    Location:
    Siberia
    Safest nicotine «vape» is ecig with SS coils, VG based e-liquid with no aromas. I vape some occasionally for convenience reasons. When I have time to mess around with true tobacco then I do prefer true vapes due to taste and overall satisfaction.

    TRUE VAPES

    Safest is Firefly 2, less biting even with ugliest tobaccos, easiest on mouth and lungs. Best flavor astonished everybody who I gave it to try. Hard learning curve. Main con is necessity to wipe the residue after each session and do it carefully because silicone sealing tends to peel off. No ISO, soft napkin is enough. Very good device otherwise, usable, small, nice, reliable.

    Second safest is Mighty to me and it is most easy to vape and maintain. Thirds are Air 2/Solo 2.

    But if you don’t really care on taste then many cheaper options are available, including even some conduction vapes like XMax Starry. Just start low, say at 150C, and go higher guiding by “nose test”. Not every vape fits to tobacco use though. So if you have any on radar then let me know and I share my thoughts.
     
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  24. Kocmo

    Kocmo New Member

    Messages:
    7
    This post is pure gold. Some very interesting info in the Pogarskaya research.

    Furfural makes sense. VG is transformed to acrolein than to formaldehyde, above 240C. E-cigarette users know - be a fanatic about coil/wick cleanness or/and use temp controlled device.

    The table about nitrosamines is priceless. I have a preference for Orientals because of taste. Never thought about TSNA.

    From Wikipedia:
    "These nitrosamine carcinogens are formed from nicotine and related compounds by a nitrosation reaction that occurs during the curing and processing of tobacco. Essentially the plant's natural alkaloids combine with nitrate forming the nitrosamines."

    I think the amount of TSNA is more related to growing conditions than to the curing method. Air vs sun cured is not that different. After all growers will cover and uncover leafs depending on the temperature and humidity in the given year to achieve the colour that buyers are looking for and that is associated with the specific variety.

    Orientals are unique for two reasons. "Tobacco is grown in sandy soil", growers from the Balkans say. A rich soil will lead to higher amount of nitrates in the leaf. The other thing they say is "Tobacco leaf's length should be twice the width. Never more". Orientals are from Burley seed, precisely an early 17th century version of it. If you take a famous oriental seed and grow it in fertile soil you will get long "dog tongues", just like Burley. Full sun and poor soil are the key.
    I guess that Djebel (mountain) varieties will have even less TSNAs than Yaki (plain).
    I can't find any valuable info about TSNAs and organically grown tobacco.
     
  25. Kocmo

    Kocmo New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Thank you very much, Xelatsok!
     

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