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Vaporizing Tobacco (not e-cigs)

Discussion in 'Vaporizables' started by vtac, Apr 11, 2008.

  1. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Netherlands
    After reading loads of abstracts on vaporizing marihuana and tobacco it seems to me that no PAHs, acrolein and benzene are present in the vapor when it's produced at 175C. So a lot of the carcinogenic components are not produced because there's no pyrolysis. I guess if the leaf contained some radioactive compounds from the start then those will end up in the vapor, though.

    The one thing I couldn't find out is the amount of nitrosamines that can be expected to be present in tobacco vapor vs tobacco smoke. If anybody can point me to relevant research, that would be greatly appreciated. In any case, oriental tobaccos and virginias should be safer than burley and the average reconstituted tobacco, that's pretty clear.
     
    karotene likes this.
  2. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Siberia
    TSNAs are nicotine derivatives and satellites. I suppose they go together with nicotine in vaporizing process. Vaporizing is more effective on nicotine extraction, so vaporizing may extract more TSNAs than combustion? This is sudden thought for me.
     
  3. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

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    Location:
    Netherlands
    It's a pity that the Russian study you cited before doesn't talk about TSNAs @Xelatsok
    But I found the PMI application summary for iQOS on the FDA website: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Advis...uctsScientificAdvisoryCommittee/UCM594327.pdf

    On page 7 they compare it to a reference cigarette and the reduction in TSNAs is around 96%. That reference cigarette produces a little more nicotine and about twice as much tar as the ones I used to smoke.

    If the results obtained with iQOS are legit and can be compared to those of a dry herb vaporizer then, assuming my brand (American Spirit yellow) had half the TSNAs compared to the reference cigarette, the results of a vaporizer would still mean a reduction of 92%. Provided I stick to the low TSNA tobaccos like Virginia and Oriental when vaporizing. Which I will. They taste awesome.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  4. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Siberia
    Now I have the answer I’m sure of. Salt base nicotine e-liquid and some refillable pod ecig, like Ald Amaze Mango (my favorite) or Suorin Air. They are affordable, tiny, fit anywhere and simple to use. I use the strength of 9-18 mg and take 12-4 MTL puffs correspondingly to get enough nicotine. No big clouds, settings, buttons (autofire), coils replacements and other mambojambo. They are discreet, inconspicuous too. Two Mangos may serve me well for whole day.
    You need rather tobacco surfaces than mass. “Less is more”. Tamped load produces less vapor comparing to fluffy one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  5. ciphoto

    ciphoto New Member

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    2
    New here and I've just read through the past couple years of post in this thread because my wife, who smokes is interested in vaping tobacco. She's tried the e cig thing and doesn't care for it. So while i was looking at vape system for CBD she ask me to check out ones that could work with tobacco.

    She's not wanting to spend alot and was wondering if something like the the Jump http://www.vaporizerchief.com/atmos-jump-vaporizer/ would work with some of the tobaccos I've seen mentioned.

    She currently smoke American Spirits Gold.

    Thanks for any input.
     
  6. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

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    18
    Location:
    Netherlands
    @ciphoto the fixed temp setting at 392F is waaay to high. Ideally you could go down to around 330F. This one seems to be meant for MJ only
     
  7. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Siberia
    I like a lot Healthy Rips Fury 2 + Grey Curved Glass Mouthpiece. Affordable, tasty, nice to hold and sesh, feels like a warm pipe in hand.
     
  8. ciphoto

    ciphoto New Member

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    2
    Dr No and Xelatsok thanks for the replies. For health reason she’s open to vaping her tobacco. But even with that benefit if it requires a lot of excess time to prep her tobacco I don’t see her doing it. But I think I could convince her to grind her tobacco, that wouldn’t be to time consuming.

    She many not like the price of that, but I think she may come around. I don’t want her to have bad experience with it, cause that will kill the moving to vaping instead of smoking.

    Hell looking at this for her has me thinking about vaping tobacco. I use to enjoy a pipe years ago.
     
  9. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

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    18
    Location:
    Netherlands
    the dosing capsules you can get for the Fury 2 seem like a handy thing. Some prep time involved upfront but then the loading is even faster for each session.

    if your wife doesn't mind that there is less vapor she can skip the drying + applying VG part and just put some good pipe tobacco straight into those capsules and vape that at ~370F
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  10. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Siberia
    I do not grind because it is time consuming. My tobacco preparation takes less time in comparison. As @dr_no said, she may also try plain tobacco without VG/PG. Or add a drop or two right into the bowl.

    For more affordable yet tastier options look for butane vapes. Lotus is $135 and does the best vapor, period. Hammer is just $40 now and is the closest thing to smoking. Some direct flame intaking vapes, like Sticky Bricks and Vaporgenies, are good too. Some of them could cost well below $100.

    If you quitted tobacco you should not even try vape it. You likely become more addicted due to nice taste while loosing many of health reasons to abandon it again. Be aware.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    karotene and dr_no like this.
  11. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

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    26
    A thousand thanks to Xelatsok for all the information provided in this thread. I have read it beginning to end and am going through again, taking notes.

    I have been vaporizing with homebuilt units since 1989. I am trying to provide a tobacco-vaping solution for a Banker Lady who wants to try it, but everything we've tried sends her into coughing fits.

    I suspect the culprit is the commercial cig tobacco - around 180c something gets released that triggers coughing, even sometimes in me.

    We've tried the Air Solo, Davinci IQ, The Plenty the MFLB.

    I just received some of the premium Pipe Tobacco varieties others have recommended here. I had no idea tobacco could smell so good. Coughing seems to be much reduced.

    I am experimenting with adding VG (and VG/PG) mixes. I don't see how PG/VG can be sprayed, due to the viscosity.

    I drop a few drops of pg/vg into a dish, smear it around the bottom so it forms a thin film. Then sprinkle the tobacco on top and smear it around. This gives much more even distribution than dropping liquid into tobacco. EDIT: Adding some heat can help speed the spread. Stir around to evenly coat all the tobacco with PG/VG. Give it a few hours (15 min at very least) to pick-up the nicotine and flavor.

    I'll try to contribute anything useful i find and keep the chat to a minumum.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  12. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Netherlands
    If you dilute the VG with distilled water the viscosity decreases. Same with PG but not as much. Alternatively a few drops of Vodka decrease it even more. And as you noticed, warming it up a little (like holding it under running hot water) will further decrease it so it can be sprayed.

    That said, I don't think spraying is necessary and even if you do you will have to stir it afterwards anyway to make sure it's evenly spread on the tobacco.

    If you want to reduce caughing even further then try to use just a pinch of tobacco. I use about 1/3 to 1/2 of the loading chamber of the Arizer Go's aroma tube.
     
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  13. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Siberia
    Those 180C are smth like average load/bowl temp in case of Air / Solo. But most of the heat flows into the load through the oven bottom. There we have metal surface heated higher than 180C in direct touch with tobacco. This leads to local scorching and some coughing-inducing components release. This effect is more pronounced with sweeter tobaccos.
    [​IMG]
    The solution is covering overheated metal with some mesh. It worked well for me with Air (see old photo above), Iolite, Fury and helped Vapcap somehow. It works now with my Solo 2 at the expense of some battery life due to less effective heat use.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
    karotene likes this.
  14. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
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    I finally came around to vaping the Snus ("Nordic chew") I bought earlier. It's actually not that bad! Definitely not something for the smoker trying to convert and looking for the closest thing to cigarettes, but if you want the lowest levels of TNSAs, are open to new flavors and you prefer to vape rather than to just put it under your lip, give it a try at 190C.
    I took a tiny amount, about the size of an average sewing pin head, and spread that on the inner side of the ArGo aroma tube. It sticks to the glass and produces a fair amount of vapor that way.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  15. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

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    The average snus seem to have around 14-20mg/gram Nicotine. If what I read is correct pipe tobacco is also in that range. How do snus have lowest TSNAs?

    I do see some snus with up to 48mg/g, which could help break the cigarette habit without going through 6 18650s a day.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  16. dr_no

    dr_no New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    Netherlands
    @karotene from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus:

    "Because it is steam-pasteurized rather than fire-cured like smoking tobacco or other chewing tobacco, it contains lower concentrations of nitrosamines and other carcinogens that form from the partially anaerobic heating of proteins - 2.8 parts per million for Ettan brand, compared to as high as 127.9 parts per million in some American brands."

    I don't think there's a 1:1 correlation of nicotine and TSNA contents.
     
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  17. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    26
    Thanks for the information!

    I also don't expect there's a 1:1 correlation, which is why a 'fortified' snu-like tobacco @ 40+mg/g is likely to deliver more nicotine per TSNA than average.

    Sadly, snus seem to be illegal in Europe, except for Sweden. I'll post links if I find some legal steam-pasteurized tobacco available here. [EDIT] snu-like products are sold in Eu. What else do they put in them? Anything we don't want heated to 170c+?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  18. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    26
    What ratio of water to VG do you need to make it sprayable? What kind of sprayer?
     
  19. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

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    Well the taste of vaped tobacco is... amazing. Once you get your favorite tobacco varities and pg/vg coating down.

    The TSNA issue is one we should be looking at ameliorating. I'll collect links here as I find them.

    Here's one amazing chart from a recent study. Quantities of NNK in 15 popular australian brands:
    [​IMG]

    Removing TSNAs from Cured Tobacco
    https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/13/1/13
    ABSTRACT:
    The cigarette usually carries in its smoke significant doses of carcinogenic tobacco specific nitrosamines (TSNAs), which have been implicated as causes of oral, lung, oesophageal, and pancreatic cancer. However, there is substantial variation in nitrosamine content of the smoke of modern cigarettes. This variation is both unacceptable and unnecessary, as TSNAs can be readily removed during the manufacturing process. Removing a known carcinogen needs no justification, even though proof of benefit may not be forthcoming for decades.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2018
    Xelatsok likes this.
  20. galumar

    galumar New Member

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    15
    Location:
    Sicily
    Hello everyone, i'm from Italy and i'm just starting vaping tobacco on my new device.
    The informations on this page are all i've found on the web on this topic, and for this reason it was a precious source.
    I would love to talk with everyone that can share some experiences.

    The most important doubt i have is regarding nicotine. As i've read here a lot of people has experienced some nicotine shock through vaping, others at the contrary talking about vaping tobacco form many yers with zero problems.

    Probably is a personal thing, but i really like to know more.
    Personally, i've tired swedish Snus some times ago and i became green, head spinning, nausea, headache and tachycardia for about 20 minutes... It wasn't funny, but maybe was my fault too because i've understood after that Snus it's a thing to experiencing so gradually.

    I guess the problem is that without combustion the amount of nicotine assumed is significantly higher. So the theme is: which kind of tobacco use for vaping?
    For sure using only organic (or at least free-additives tobaccos) is necessary, but if some light one in nicotine amount is again better.

    Fortunately here in Italy is possible buying (online too) organic tobacco in leaves, if it's hard to find organic tobacco in the shop, and make our own natural vaping tobacco.
    Since i live into the wild nature i'm seriously thinking on farm it, and of course try to vape even sage, rosemary, peppermint and other herbs that are everywhere in my garden and i usually use it in my kitchen.

    I recently had some really interesting discussions via mail with an american tobacco leaf farmer and seller, he recommended me some kind of light tobacco for vaping and he gave me a trick: if you buy natural tobacco in leaves it's sufficient washing it with water (and than dry at air/sun) for a huge reduction of the nicotine amount in it.

    Finally, i've found a website selling Snuff and they just have launched a vaping tobacco line of products. I've bought a pair of tins and i'm waiting the delivery for trying it. They say that this tobacco i specifically designed for vaping. I hope it will be good too, it's also cheap, but in my opinion the future is on farming/buying organic natural tobacco in leaves and adjusting the nicotine with water if/when necessary.
     
    Xelatsok likes this.
  21. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

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    I am curious to try it. Can you share a URL link?

    Right now I am favoring Bentley - The Oriental Amber.

    The ability to get more nicotine by vaping is, I believe, the main thing that helped me quit smoking.

    Edit: Might as well add something useful to the post: Here a study found NNK in the presence of cigarette smoke to not be carcinogenic in rats... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2651603/
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  22. galumar

    galumar New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Location:
    Sicily
    Hello @karotene
    "The ability to get more nicotine by vaping is, I believe, the main thing that helped me quit smoking" this is exactly what i hope for me!
    So you never had bad nicotine side effects experience...?

    I've heard of the Bentley but isn't findable here.
    I guess you vape pipe tobacco, in what is better of rolling natural tobacco in your experience?

    The company is the Toque Snuff Tobacco, and you can find their vaping tobacco here.
     
  23. karotene

    karotene Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    26
    I did, then I inhaled less the next time. Didn't seem to be a problem. Thanks for the link.

    [EDIT] The products you link have insufficient descriptions for me. How many grams tobacco is it? What are the varieties used? How are they cured? Are there additives? Might just be the cheapest tobacco they find on the market.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
    galumar likes this.
  24. galumar

    galumar New Member

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    15
    Location:
    Sicily
    True. I wrote a mail to Roderick, the guy owner/founder of the company hoping that will give me some informations more.

    I've bought his tobacco with no-info just because i was enthusiastic after read some amazing reviews in the Snuffhouse Forum and in another one. When i got a reply form him i'll let you know, or just write directly to him too, maybe he will understand that some informations more on the product on website are needed.
     
  25. Xelatsok

    Xelatsok vapes tobacco modding the vapes

    Messages:
    243
    Location:
    Siberia
    Lightest tobaccos are Orientals. They are most fragrant (oily), lowest on TSNAs and easiest to vape. The lightest Oriental I tried is Samuel Gawith R.C.Turkish, it is steamed BTW.
     
    galumar likes this.

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