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Vaporization temperatures of CBD, CBN and THC

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by tdavie, Jan 7, 2010.

  1. Tadpole

    Tadpole New Member

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    I was searching temperatures, this popped up first :). My name is Emily, I live in bc, big fan of vaporizers :D I'm sorry if I skimmed and missed something; does anyone eat their vaporizings? There's a lot left in them :). Some can only handle them in gel caps (sold at the parmacy). I like them in yogurt :)
    I have the solo vapir, I can only handle temp level 6. I have been thinking a lot about how much thc is left. I use medicinally, and would like to share my vaporizings with people who don't toke. I just can't risk the idea of people losing jobs. Foolish me, no responses since 2010. Fingers crossed someone might answer.
     
  2. hoptimum

    hoptimum Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Emily, yes, a lot of people eat their leftovers. Or make hot chocolate out of soiled stems. Look around on FC and do some searches. There's loads an adventurous cannabis cook can do with the already been vapid (abv).
     
  3. James C

    James C EDM and vapor enthusiast

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    Well I know this thread is almost a year old at this point...but I just wanted to say Tom that I have a very similar experience as you. Recently I've started having panic attacks when I vape herbs with too high of a THC profile (sativas and hybrids with sativa dominant over indica). I really need to find a good indica as well, or some way to control it so that doesnt happen.

    Have you had any luck with your experiences?
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  4. vaporbrothers

    vaporbrothers Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    The last decade has seen so much selective breeding for THC only, herb has become somewhat of an anxiety trip drug. :doh: I miss the old days of smiles and laughing. THC is one tiny little component of a good bud, and THC in huge amounts without anything else to balance it is like battery acid for the soul.

    Anyway, what helps me in general is NOT to pay attention to any one temperature. A vaporizer that subjects the herbs to a wide range of temperatures during the hit tends to give me a more full bodied head space, imo. A more well rounded high might be a good way to put it.
     
    GratefulVapor, Dafni and chimpybits like this.
  5. James C

    James C EDM and vapor enthusiast

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    Thank-you! I will definitely try that out. Any suggestions as to how to do that tho? Are you talking about adjusting temperature by adjusting draw rates, etc? I don't know of any vaporizers that have multiple "temperatures" so to speak during the same hit.
     
  6. vaporbrothers

    vaporbrothers Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    Location:
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    For our box vaporizer or any of its clones, the temp is dependent on the setting and the draw rate, true. Draw rate changes the temp by about 100 degrees. (Draw faster = 100 degrees less, Draw slower = 100 degrees hotter) I start the hit drawing kinda slow until I feel the vapor happening, then speed up, then slow down by the end. The herb experiences all temperatures during that one hit.

    For a well controlled fan driven type (like volcano) the temp doesn't really change during the whole hit. You have to change the setting. I fill a bag at 325 and then set it to 450F. I don't particularly like this- weak hit at first, bitter hit at the end, but it does show on the ABV that it's been really cooked completely.
     
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  7. Dafni

    Dafni Well-Known Member

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    That's a good discussion, folks, and some good points, Mr Vaporbrothers.

    I have noticed the same: even on sativa strains I can avoid this anxiety trip when I make sure to fully extract the herb. I believe the stuff that comes at the end, when the taste slowly goes away, is what makes the effect more agreeable.

    On the other hand, if you vape even a pure indica only at lower temps, you are more likely to feel the "anxiety trip" effects when you over-do it, because you are only/maily getting the thc.

    You are so right Mr VB, this trend to thc heavy strains was not necessarily a good thing. You hear so many stories about youngsters having panic attacks and psychosis and whatnot, just from strong pot. Back in our days you never heard such a thing.

    Medicate responsibly, less is often more, and don't negelct the high boiling 'noids :nod:
     
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  8. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

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    Location:
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    As many of you know, I'm new to vaping but not new to combusting Mexican brick. My NO2 and I have been trying to get the right temps dialed in. They all seem pretty sweet to me except those high heat ranges. I'm testing 367 today and it's feeling a bit heavy.

    I do think if we are going to attempt to isolate certain chemicals by certain temperatures, we at least need accurate temperature gauges in our vapes and, accurate information about what can be accessed at what temps.

    The current mantra around FC, is find your own sweet spot. Ok fine, but some baseline accurate information would go a long way to narrowing that process. This would be like a doctor saying, take this bottle of pills and find out for yourself how many you should take until it does what you want.

    I don't see how you could ever use this for real medicine unless you can isolate the good stuff and leave off the bad, and, as someone else pointed out, the difference in strains and selective breeding plays a huge role in dosing. I don't doubt the potential, I doubt the ability to deliver the consistency for it to be specific and thus most effective.

    IME, Medical vaporizers should be regulated and held to a standard. They should be accurate within 1-2* throughout the treatment and the device be certified before prescribed by the doctor. The RX should be for a certain strain and only that strain that has been bred to help that condition. Generics allowed. :)

    I do think someday all this will become a more exact science and when it does I think it will be considered a more acceptable alternative medicine. I think right now it's still considered like acupuncture, Chinese herbal medicine, Aromatherapy.

    It's taken over 40 years since I started and even back then, we believed a more acceptable use would surely be imminent any day. It took 1/2 a century just to get this far.

    Legalization wasn't the answer in my lifetime, it appears medicinal use was the key. We never thought of herb being healthful back in the late 60's.

    I don't live in a state that MMJ is legal, so I haven't experienced that first rush of being able to use this to help me get through my day and not feel like I could go to jail at anytime.

    Everyone reading this, is on that same edge of discovery as we find out what's possible. The bonus is, we think better health and being our own little ride.
     
    xRUFUSx likes this.
  9. shredhead

    shredhead Specialist

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    Location:
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    Look into the herbalizer. It's supposed to be pretty accurate with actual temps I Believe. Bu that also comes with a $750 price tag. That kind of technology is expensive at the moment.
     
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  10. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    Location:
    Oregon
    Dogdad - While I understand your desire to have more uniformity and control, I couldn't disagree w/ most of your statements more. Who is supposed to regulate and standardize this? The AMA? The gov? Both seem like horrible ideas to me.

    You say that you don't think this can be used medicinally w/o "isolating the good and leaving off the bad". I am unaware of a single drug in existence that meets this criteria. At least, unlike many meds, your spleen won't fall out as a side effect of using it. I also have been using mj medicinally a lot longer than vapes have been around.

    A drs rx for a vape and a specific strain? Boy, not only do you have way more faith in the ama than me, you sure are willing to give away a lot of my rights. Grower rights are what will keep the gov from monopolizing the market and creating a near useless pill as an alternative. How many people are currently being helped w/ marinol? Also, w/ this method, only people w/ good insurance ($) are able to receive help? People suffer and die every day because they can't afford to get help through the system.

    BTW, acupuncture, 'Chinese herbal medicine' and aromatherapy are only considered alternative in the west. In a lot of the world they have been accepted and practiced for thousands of years. Chinese food, in China, is just called food. And still, I don't think mj is grouped in w/ those by most. There are acu shops across the country, countless spas use aromatherapy and there are even eastern medicine practices - none of which are under constant fear of being raided by the feds.

    While I understand some of your desires, I don't believe that giving the ama or gov more power over us is ever a reasonable response. At least 'free market' (said sarcastically) encourages competition which drives quality and somewhat maintains pricing.

    http://www.publicintegrity.org/2013/02/11/12175/opinion-big-pharmas-stranglehold-washington
     
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  11. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    I don't think precise temperature control is really much help for many reasons. First of these is that no vaporizer is measuring the temperature of the load. All precise temperature settings do is ensure you are providing the same heat every time. That's helpful but it will never solve the problem. The load temperature at that setting will vary depending on moisture content and load density, and that varies from hit to hit.

    Let's assume some genius engineer figures out how to measure the load temperature accurately and every time. That still won't solve the problem. Cannabis is a plant. The characteristics vary from harvest to harvest and even from plant to plant. The same temperature will yield different results from batch to batch.

    Let's further assume some genius botanist develops a way to ensure guaranteed uniformity within a strain. Selecting the temperature for, let's say, CBN still won't avoid other actives. Vapourization isn't binary, and the actives start to vapourize long before they reach their boiling point. Choosing a temperature will only let you bias the results, not select specific components.

    Let's assume you could, however. A precise temperature selecting just CBN or THC would probably be undesirable because the active components mitigate each other. This is why THC-only experiences are not nice. We don't understand how they affect each other but we do know that isolating individual components (such as they do with Marinol) has not yielded expected results.

    Precise temperature control and even digital displays are overrated as far as I'm concerned. They're useful but people expect too much from them.
     
  12. DogDad

    DogDad Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    The Dog House
    I don't know who would be best but I would think like any other medicine? I think self diagnosing and treatment is a bad idea. Even many doctors don't do that. Let me explain.

    I'm pretty torn up with ligament damage. I wear braces because I hurt more if I don't. I got into vaping as a way to decrease the inflammation and pain but it didn't work for me. Finally, I had to go to the doctor and even the most powerful of drugs are only marginally helpful. I should have gone to the doctor sooner.

    Maybe it would have worked if I could have vaped 3 grams at 400 every 4 hours, but I wouldn't have been able to function.

    My point is, if science could isolate the helpful parts and reduce the parts that make it difficult to function, I think we could gain some benefits if there are benefits to be had.

    The way it is now, MMJ is a hammer and everything looks like a nail and what I personally find is that I can't get the medicine in concentrations high enough to be effective, without being seriously too vaked.
     
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  13. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

    Messages:
    306
    Location:
    Oregon
    I understand and don't disagree w/ your needs, I just don't think giving the gov or ama power will solve it. I think like any other institution they control, it will make matters worse.

    If mj was decriminalized/descheduled, scientists would be coming out of the woodwork to solve these issues.

    Your issue about not getting enough medical benefit w/o getting too vaked holds true w/ most pain relief measures. Cbd's may very well be the answer to many people's pain issues - and isolating cbd's is most likely the direction the gov would take in controlling mj.

    That leaves a lot of us out in the cold. Not only do I believe that a lot of the medical benefits of mj are due to how cannabinoids interact w/ each other (I see pakalolo has stated this more eloquently as I was writing this), many of us need high thc levels.

    I have late stage chronic pancreatitis. Mj helps regulate appetite, allows me to keep food down, control nausea, keeps stress lower, allows me to pass food, relaxes stomach muscles/gag reflex, etc. High thc strains achieve the best results for dealing w/ these issues. I am also able to function on sativa dom strains and continue on w/ life. Straight cbd's would just put me to sleep and not be an effective treatment.

    It seems like it comes down to you trust the ama/gov to have your best interest at heart and I don't. I think the fda is a joke. If you spend enough $, you can market your product. If you kill enough people, they might pull it. Pharma companies have formulas which compare the cost of lawsuits vs pulling a product - and will not pull it until the balance tips away from profit.

    I have dealt w/ our version of a health system for 3 decades, and am not impressed. W/o insurance it's nonexistent. I have started the process over and over again w/ different dr's to always end up at the same place: "the only thing we can do for you is prescribe pain and nausea meds long term - and we don't feel comfortable doing that". I for one am extremely happy and fortunate that there will always be a bm for people who fall through the cracks. Most bmer's I know are more ethical than any dr I have ever met.

    Kind of a side note: I know many patients who achieve the best relief from issues like yours through topical applications. may be perfect for you as there will be no 'high' associated w/ topicals. I also have been diagnosed w/ ankylosing spondylitis, trashed l4, etc and have had good success using topicals. If this is something you think might help you, I would be more than happy to share my limited understanding and current recipe w/ you. You have cannabinoid receptors throughout the body which allows good success rates with this method. While cannabis is the key component I don't limit my recipe to mj, as there are many herbs which prove beneficial for pain relief, swelling, inflammation, etc.

    We are all entitled to our opinions, and I hope you know I am not trying to attack you for yours. I am just offering a different perspective coupled w/ my hatred for our medical system and government oversight.
     
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  14. James C

    James C EDM and vapor enthusiast

    Messages:
    94
    Yeah, definitely some really valid points here. While I agree that temperature controls can't be perfect and really depend on the situation, I do wish that vapes indicated how "reliable" their controls were so you can at least have some idea.

    I've been playing around with seeing how different cannabanoid profiles affect my experiences when vaping (for anxiety/panic attack purposes) and have found that low temperature vaping (releasing mainly THC) is the big culprit, regardless of strain type (tho that still matters). But vaping at higher temperatures releasing THC and CBDs makes a much more even profile with a non-panicky, enjoyable high. For this type of thing, precise temperatures would be useful so as to be able to use a new vape and know where to start to avoid anxiety. It's too bad I just enjoy low temperatures bowls so much more.
     
  15. Qatmaster

    Qatmaster Active Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    So AZ
    I have Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy in my upper left body since 03 and tmjd in both jaws since 86. I've smoked pot throughout, and always found it more effective than any of the various pills I've been prescribed throughout the decades. Recently (2 years ago) Arizona's state government FINALLY listened to its citizens and relented (on the 4th vote FOR mmj) to obey the law. So for two years now, I've been using mmj.

    Last December, I gifted myself an Atmos Raw at a dispensary. Yeah, I know. I paid too much, burned out the first chamber in a day, and was off on the Money Sink Pen Vape Routine. However, I woke up. I started writing. I got more alert. Friends commented on my mental status. "We've been SO worried about you..." kinda stuff, not said when I needed to hear it, but said eventually, and with love... But bottom line, once I began vaping instead of smoking, something changed, and other people could see it.

    However, several hundred dollars later, I discovered tdavie's work on this site re temps. I figured out WHY I couldn't sleep anymore at ALL. I was vaping at extremely low temps all the time in my new and never ending set of vaping pens. I was trying to find the "perfect" heating chamber (one which wouldn't immediately roast my mmj into ash, but would actually VAPE my mmj. The Atmos glass button filter works.) and the perfect pen (ain't one), thinking that if I just had the right equipment, I'd be fine. I got a Volcano from a family member. Well, got it made NOW! Not exactly...

    The volcano, and tdavie's work on temps, found here:"http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vaporization-temperature-dependent-selection-of-effects.1637/", helped me a lot. I came to understand the limits and the benefits and the advantages and disadvantages of temps and doing too much and doing too much at one temp and several other things others have mentioned. I've searched for answers on how to treat my own pain, and so far, I've only learned a few things that I consider fact.

    1. Different things happen at different temps. Starting low and moving progressively higher by 10-15 degrees C (starting at 130 c, I mean LOW temps) has an extremely positive effect on my pain levels. I prefer 130 (2-3 balloons, stirring between each balloon), 145 (2 balloons), 160 (2-3 balloons) and at this point, I do one of two things. I either remix or I repeat. Remixing means I put the entire amount of abv into my medium jar, stir it all up so that it's mixed together, and I put 2/3 abv in and put 1/3 UBV on that, sometimes with a layer of kief or hash for sheer pleasure). Repeating means I dump the abv into the medium container for later, and I reload my volcano pot and start at 130 again, stopping at the 3rd or 4th bowl of 160 degrees.

    2. At least on the volcano, stirring between balloons is a must for continued taste and even "roasting" of my herb. If I leave it and do not stir the mmj between balloons, it forms a cake, and the top is one color and the bottom another... If I've stirred the mix, it IS a mix, and there is no color gradation.

    3. On bad days (or bed days, which are worse), I start with the medium jar, and I go directly to 160. I make my mixture half and half, and often sandwich a treat between layers, but I do 160, 175 and 190, 2-3 balloons of each. The remains of THIS abv go into a different jar, marked High. I use it at 205 or 220 when I simply have not slept and cannot sleep. I often cannot finish the balloon without falling asleep.

    4. Despite the Volcano's excellent craftsmanship and distinct and accurate thermometer, it is not enough. It is a sledgehammer when I sometimes just need a tackhammer. Sometimes I need a framing hammer. So I've got pens as tack hammers. I've got the sledgehammer. I do not know what a good framing hammer might be. Anybody with a suggestion, please speak up. It has to be temperature intelligent and portable and easy to hold.

    5. Vaping is so superior to smoking that I cannot believe it has taken me this long to discover it. Reclaiming my abv alone is a life-changing thing! Reusing my stash is brilliant and so very necessary, since I don't even make $900 on my great disability plan (god bless em, but it ain't much...)

    That's what I know, and I'm writing about it at Vaping4Life.wordpress.com, but what I don't know is far greater. For one, what's my framing hammer? The Pinnacle Pro? Magic Flight Launch Box? Those two seem to be the most likely candidates, being unique unto themselves (so far as I can tell) and not a clone of something else (again, so far as I can tell). The Pinnacle Pro seems like a portable version of the Volcano, in a sized down version with a water tool to keep me from dehydrating so bad! And so many ppl are rabid about the MFLB that it must somehow do what it does very very well. No other vaporizers get the same rantings as those two. Opinions? Suggestions?

    Finally, yes, we all have to find what works for us, but I think anyone would be remiss to ignore tdavie's devoted work on this site regarding temps, if only to continue our own education. The temp levels absolutely make a difference in your experience, and only you can decide which differences are good ones for you -- I like hearing my friends say they think I'm more in touch with the world around me. That's due to vaping at low temps. Has to be. It's the only difference in my life. All else is the same.

    Good luck to you all, and thanks for every one of your opinions. I've really enjoyed reading this thread!
     
  16. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Enchantre likes this.
  17. cityslang

    cityslang A taste on the tongue

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