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Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

Quetzalcoatl

DEADY GUERRERO/DIRT COBAIN/GEORGE KUSH
It's 5 posts up... There are books and a multitude of articles on the medical benefits of various chemicals in cannabis available for free online. It's hard to point to any one specific site for learning as there's so much to cover, but Wikipedia has articles on a lot of the compounds that describe mode of action, effects, etc.
 

adamm

Well-Known Member
Edited the original one into an easier one to read for myself.. Can anyone inform me if there was any updates to post #2?

I got this..
140 2Anti-Inflammatory
150
160 Euphoriant, 2Analgesic, 3Anti-Inflammatory, Antiemetic, Anxiolytic, Antipsychotic, Bronchodilator
170 Anxiolytic, 2Analgesic, Antipsychotic, 2Anti-Inflammatory
180 Antiemetic, Antidepressant, 2Anti-Inflammatory, Anxiolytic
185 Sedative
190 2Sedative, Antidepressant, Anxiolytic
200
210
220 Anti-Inflammatory, Analgesic, Euphoriant, Sedative
225 Sedative
230 Sedative

Just added it to notes on my phone so I can look it up whenever, very handy :tup:.
 

JamesTiberiousKirk

Well-Known Member
I am late to the party, but this is exceptionally great stuff. I recently bought a second Ascent, just to continue my completely uncontrolled studies. Vaporizing at very low temperatures (a relative concept, I know) is literally blowing my mind. The con of gradually increasing temp during a session (or multiple sessions) seems to be that once you get to 375f, you only extract effects, the flavor was extracted earlier. You greedy flavor pig.
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
I am late to the party, but this is exceptionally great stuff. I recently bought a second Ascent, just to continue my completely uncontrolled studies. Vaporizing at very low temperatures (a relative concept, I know) is literally blowing my mind. The con of gradually increasing temp during a session (or multiple sessions) seems to be that once you get to 375f, you only extract effects, the flavor was extracted earlier. You greedy flavor pig.

There is still flavour, but most people don't like it. It's disparagingly called "the burnt popcorn taste". I've never tasted anything at any temperature that reminded me of burnt popcorn, but I do know the taste of high temperature vaping. I swim against the tide, because I find it interesting. I can keep going much longer than some of my friends, who feel that it tastes awful. I think it's an acquired taste, like black coffee, or Scotch. I'd say don't make assumptions based on what other people tell you. Experiment and find out for yourself, it's much more fun.
 

Been Vapin

Fringe Class
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RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
This is good stuff!

This will bring into question the validity of every digital temp vape out there with regards to it displaying an accurate bowl temp.


Agreed, after my recent months worth of testing outfitting both a heater element and load chamber with thermal couples it is staggering the amount of delta T you get depending on location. Effects such as turbulent verses laminar flow as well as the profile changes due to various pressure drop and edge effects can be dramatic.

The biggest problem is that no vaporizer measures the temperature at the herb. For example, the Extreme v3 (my model) lets me crank the digital display up to 260 Celsius. Well, clearly that's not the herb temperature because that's well beyond the combustion point but the herbs aren't burning.

Anything with a temperature controller is helpful to maintain consistency but I'm not aware of any device that can tell me that I'm really vaping at a specific temperature. What would be really useful to know is the fudge factor to apply to various vaporizers. magicflight posted some interesting thoughts about the Extreme (http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?pid=69171#p69171) and there have been some discussions in the Extreme threads, but nothing conclusive.

Tom's table is useful as a guideline but the only way to apply it directly is by knowing actual vaporizing temperatures. All we can do with current technology is experiment and find the sweet spot, then approximate where we are on Tom's chart.


Way off topic but I wonder if you could create the temperature control organically by instrumenting a chamber and then simply allowing the unit to come up to steady state at various temperatures. Then you could map the temperatures to the temperature control (knob). This would cancel out all of the manufacturing and design tolerances and you would have a vaporizer who's temperatures where dead nuts on. If you wanted to you could put a fresh load of Lavender in when mapping to get a color pallet of ABVs to supply with the unit. They then could be used as a trouble shooting tool to judge if something is wrong with the unit such as high contact resistance or degrading heater element causing it to be "out of calibration"

The thing is, if you have chunks of herb, even a small piece, there will still be trichomes that haven't been heated enough to release the thc. Remember air is very lite compared to the herb it is touching so the air will only be most effective to the surface of the areas it touches. If you have little chunks that haven't been broken down properly, the trichomes will get left behind creating little pockets keeping them mostly untouched due to the cooling properties of plant fibers. Also, trichomes melt into liquids so some oils will be absorbed into some plant fibers which is why just looking to see if trichomes are gone isn't a good indicator to see if you vaped the oils out of the herb.

When we measure vaporizer temperatures we are measuring air, not the herb itself. Because herb is so light we can only measure the surface temperature, unlike meat which is so dense we can have a good idea what the temperature is inside the meat by putting a thermometer deep inside of the meat itself. We can't put a thermometer deep inside a plant cell, at least I don't know how. The goal is to have the air bring the herb to the temperature we set so we can extract what we want, so in order to make sure this happens we have to break down the plant fibers as much as we can, so they don't prevent proper temperature extraction.

I second the motion that the "quality of grind" is of utmost importance to homogeneous vaporization. Just like with a heating element, more surface area is always better. I find that a super fine grind and small lightly packed loads gives way to the most uniform results... imho
 
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Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
I second the motion that the "quality of grind" is of utmost importance to homogeneous vaporization. Just like with a heating element, more surface area is always better. I find that a super fine grind and small lightly packed loads gives way to the most uniform results... imho
I find that to be the case depending on vape instrument and technique used. Water diffusion is helpful with many strains that become harsh vapor when finely ground. I also think that finely ground facilitates the release of so many more herb constituents giving way to the entourage effect, and that's a very good thing! When making tincture (I know, off topic) I grind as fine as possible in order to get as much terpene, chlorophyll, and trichome as possible in the final product. Flavor is a non-issue for me (e.g., bitterness, as I like my beers, for example, very hoppy and bitter). For chasing fresh vape flavors and nice effect, sometimes lower temps with nugs or course grind are primo!
 
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RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
That is a good point about constant heat conduction. It really does release vapour between hits, although the loss due to this will vary by design. If the vapour is released but remains in the air path, the loss is mostly flavour and not active components.

I mentioned that the compounds exist in a matrix and I'm not aware of research on the implications of this. What I do know is that the compounds interact with each other and this changes the effects. If you use a stepping strategy, you will not achieve the same results as you would by going directly to a specific temperature. The ratios of actives will be different and so also will be the interaction.

I have been meaning to look into what effect the change in partial pressure has as the draw is made? Meaning does the vacuum created accelerate the release of active ingredients as compared to when it is just sitting there cooking... I ment to do that with my Accent but I cant find it since I switched to a different vape.
 
RastaBuddhaTao,

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
I have been meaning to look into what effect the change in partial pressure has as the draw is made? Meaning does the vacuum created accelerate the release of active ingredients as compared to when it is just sitting there cooking... I ment to do that with my Accent but I cant find it since I switched to a different vape.

Yes it does. It's difficult to say how strong the effect is because we don't know what the actual pressure drop is, but the science says a partial vacuum will lower the vapourization temperature.
 

ShadowVape

Vrip CSR
Manufacturer
A classic that everyone should have in their library! Clark is a legend who was way ahead of his time. Doesn't address the complications with extraction/delivery/device/grind/technique etc. discussed here though just a good reference table to help raise more question than answers don't you love that shit?

Great points Snappo and RastaBuddhatao; some already put forth by Pak too I think. The grind and rate of pull are huge complication factors that make quite a bit of difference and can exasperate the device to device differences too given the range of physical properties possible.

I've been meditating on this a bit and I think the only way to get some sort of "standard" if you will (would still have to be adjusted for device and personal grind/pull/material preferences) would be to use a mini-kiln connected to a vacuum pump with both solid filter and solvent based catches (both required so gases in the collected data mix too) that would enable you to determine exactly what you got at what temp and what vacuum/pull rate (and what grind coarseness and moisture content if you really want to get distilled). You could even have the vacuum adjust throughout the "pull" to more accurately emulate a few different common styles/preferences in terms of the pull rate curves. Whose going to put this protocol together, source the lab and start the crowd source funding? Pak you down?

VRIP is down for donating a giveaway kit for the XYth contributor to the funding or similar incentivization effort and I can pretty much assure that a few other companies in the industry would too! Or if someone on here wants to build a rig themselves the solid filters and solvent catch samples could probably just be sent to one of the existing friendly testing labs (I prefer to use: pureanalytics.net) and I'm hunching they wouldn't have a problem running them as long as whatever additional cost was required for the different substrates was not an issue or was simply paid by the truthseekers --- this would be the most cost effective approach. In fact, I'm hunching that there is at least a few of the labs out there that would be stoked to do something different and contribute to a perhaps less thought about, but equally important part of the growing knowledge base than simply what is in (or on) the flowers or concentrates or what releases at what static temps. The extraction chamber on the rig could be run dry or with moisture conditioning ideally and the coarseness of the screen material used (Vrip will also donate some glass screens if applicable) should be noted. If a simple one-piece chamber design that could be blown from glass is used the sizes and venturi factors (shapes/rate of tapering if any) could also be tested --- the flow-form physics of the actual extraction chamber WILL make a difference if for only the differences in thermal accumulation (for those of you that don't believe in the higher physics).

Remember the nutritional supplement industry for years was all about what was in the supplement then the best practitioners started to figure out it was more about what could actually be absorbed and was bioavailable and that improvement in the relative knowledge base lead to a significant improvement in the quality and sourcing of the supplements available. We are the practitioners (and manufacturers) in this space and growing this less thought about component of the knowledge base could lead to better usage rituals and will undoubtedly lead to better products from which we all benefit.
 
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RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
A classic that everyone should have in their library! Clark is a legend who was way ahead of his time. Doesn't address the complications with extraction/delivery/device/grind/technique etc. discussed here though just a good reference table to help raise more question than answers don't you love that shit?

Great points Snappo and RastaBuddhatao; some already put forth by Pak too I think. The grind and rate of pull are huge complication factors that make quite a bit of difference and can exasperate the device to device differences too given the range of physical properties possible.

I've been meditating on this a bit and I think the only way to get some sort of "standard" if you will (would still have to be adjusted for device and personal grind/pull/material preferences) would be to use a mini-kiln connected to a vacuum pump with both solid filter and solvent based catches (both required so gases in the collected data mix too) that would enable you to determine exactly what you got at what temp and what vacuum/pull rate (and what grind coarseness and moisture content if you really want to get distilled). You could even have the vacuum adjust throughout the "pull" to more accurately emulate a few different common styles/preferences in terms of the pull rate curves. Whose going to put this protocol together, source the lab and start the crowd source funding? Pak you down?

VRIP is down for donating a giveaway kit for the XYth contributor to the funding or similar incentivization effort and I can pretty much assure that a few other companies in the industry would too! Or if someone on here wants to build a rig themselves the solid filters and solvent catch samples could probably just be sent to one of the existing friendly testing labs (I prefer to use: pureanalytics.net) and I'm hunching they wouldn't have a problem running them as long as whatever additional cost was required for the different substrates was not an issue or was simply paid by the truthseekers --- this would be the most cost effective approach. In fact, I'm hunching that there is at least a few of the labs out there that would be stoked to do something different and contribute to a perhaps less thought about, but equally important part of the growing knowledge base than simply what is in (or on) the flowers or concentrates or what releases at what static temps. The extraction chamber on the rig could be run dry or with moisture conditioning ideally and the coarseness of the screen material used (Vrip will also donate some glass screens if applicable) should be noted. If a simple one-piece chamber design that could be blown from glass is used the sizes and venturi factors (shapes/rate of tapering if any) could also be tested --- the flow-form physics of the actual extraction chamber WILL make a difference if for only the differences in thermal accumulation (for those of you that don't believe in the higher physics).

Remember the nutritional supplement industry for years was all about what was in the supplement then the best practitioners started to figure out it was more about what could actually be absorbed and was bioavailable and that improvement in the relative knowledge base lead to a significant improvement in the quality and sourcing of the supplements available. We are the practitioners (and manufacturers) in this space and growing this less thought about component of the knowledge base could lead to better usage rituals and will undoubtedly lead to better products from which we all benefit.
Do concentrates obey the same chart or does the process of extraction leave behind any active ingredients? I kinda had the impression that it was an all or nothing deal? I am working on a device that enables temperature control for concentrates. I have seen that if you slowly bring the temp up you can volotize the majority of it and stop short of burning up some contaminants. Then when you are done you can turn up the heater and burn off the heater element for the next use.


Might be able to do a weight experiment if you had a really accurate scale?
 
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Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
Is there that much discernible degradation or enhancement in the effect of our herb when heat-chamber pressures vary on the very small scale that they do? Mightn't other factors such as draw effort, air/vapor density & ratio, water, grind, temp, herb cure and quality, etc., provide much more relevant feedback than negilgible variances in ambient pressure?
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
Is there that much discernible degradation or enhancement in the effect of our herb when heat-chamber pressures vary on the very small scale that they do? Mightn't other factors such as draw effort, air/vapor density & ratio, water, grind, temp, herb cure and quality, etc., provide much more relevant feedback than negilgible variances in ambient pressure?

I don't think the pressure variations are negligible at all, but your point about sorting out the variables is quite valid. To your first point, the Herbalaire has exploited airflow and pressure differentials to the point where it can effectively extract without any grinding at all.
 

Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
I don't think the pressure variations are negligible at all, but your point about sorting out the variables is quite valid. To your first point, the Herbalaire has exploited airflow and pressure differentials to the point where it can effectively extract without any grinding at all.
This then is a fascinating and extremely important variable (chamber pressure) that can apparently give we aficionados an edge when desiring to dial in subtle effects! If, for example, differences in draw effort from one stem to another in effect portend to variances in pressure, then so much more discretion is in our grasp! Being able to swap or regulate heating chambers with different pressure characteristics may even possibly also open many doors to dialing in one's herb profile preferences (?).
 

pakalolo

Toolbag v1.1 (candidate)
Staff member
This then is a fascinating and extremely important variable (chamber pressure) that can apparently give we aficionados an edge when desiring to dial in subtle effects! If, for example, differences in draw effort from one stem to another in effect portend to variances in pressure, then so much more discretion is in our grasp! Being able to swap heating chambers with different pressure characteristics and could also open many doors to dialing in one's herb profile preferences (?).

I think this is already happening, but as you astutely pointed out, it's difficult (impossible?) to separate the various effects. Our senior member, @stickstones, gave this a name: vape signature. In fact, "vape" is probably too limiting because as you implied, different stems or usage methods change some of the variables. One of the joys of vapourizing is exploring this aspect.
 

Snappo

Caveat Emptor - "A Billion People Can Be Wrong!"
Accessory Maker
I think this is already happening, but as you astutely pointed out, it's difficult (impossible?) to separate the various effects. Our senior member, @stickstones, gave this a name: vape signature. In fact, "vape" is probably too limiting because as you implied, different stems or usage methods change some of the variables. One of the joys of vapourizing is exploring this aspect.
Yes! Vape signatures can be very distinct, and not necessarily limiting. For fun, I experiment constantly and continually discover new and enjoyable vape characteristics in all my devices! Water tools I find change the equation dramatically re pressures around and throughout the load, for example. It seems that the technology is already built in to even the most basic of vape designs, ready for us to explore and enjoy! It's the wide-eyed kid in me I guess that keeps me coming back for more!
 

RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
I have been planning on putting a variable orifice on the inlet of my device. My thought with it was that I could run a smaller orifice to "choke down" the flow so new users will start out in more of the sweet spot. But since the device has negligible pressure drop other than the load the choke would allow various levels of vacuum be applied to the load.

Not sure what it means but it's another way of looking at what I was thinking of doing. I have noticed when I run wide open and put my hand over the inlet and use it like a carb to reduce the flow it changes it's signature.... But I am also changing the air flow rate in both?
I did have someone ask me if the had to break up the material before using it lol so laziness is afoot. Blows my mind that you can vape without a grind... Hard to believe... Full vaporization??? So very intrigued .)
 

ShadowVape

Vrip CSR
Manufacturer
Jason King of Cannabible fame has always preferred to start his Vrips (vapes) with a simple packed nug in the bowl; no grinding at all. Then once it's been heated and started to dry out a bit he'll crunch it up with the poker and essentially affect a grinded higher surface area for the rest of the pulls, but without ever putting the precious nug in the grinder (a stomach wrenching waste of glands in his opinion).

One of the reasons this technique works great with the VRIP vaporization chamber bowl approach is that the sequential venturi design creates thermal accumulation that is both convective and conductive once pulls are in process right at the point of the greatest acceleration of the convective heat stream which is right where the heat hits the herbs. And presuming a well packed bowl (always our recommendation) you'll have an even greater pressure differential above and below the herbs than with a weaker packed or over ground and weak packed bowl. I know when you don't grind you get great flavor but seemingly less body on the first pull and it's not until you stir it and crunch it up that you get more body. We've noticed a significant difference in this regard with using the honeycomb glass screens in our bowls over stainless or titanium screens due to the thermal mass difference between them. The honeycomb glass screens are so much thicker than stainless or titanium mesh so will accumulate heat creating a conductive heat field synced with the convective flow temp so you can get away without even stirring if you're good with pulling long enough or just accepting the JK technique results, i.e. more flavor at first and then more body after it heats up.

I personally always prefer a medium grind (but keep my grinder clean!!!) because that delivers the best of both worlds IMHO so you can get full spectrum flavor and body in the same pulls and sooner. I've demonstrated this to Jason multiple times and he can't but agree it's right there to experience, but he still hates grinders ha!

The" vape signature" is a great way of putting it --- nice work Stickstones. This is something that can be explained with the size of the vapor droplets which affects where they deposit, i.e. in the mouth/oral cavity where you'll have the most mouth feel/flavor sensation (larger droplets --- condensed faster --- cooler apparent temp) or deeper in the tracheobronchial tree (smaller droplets --- condensed slower --- higher apparent temp) where you'll get improved pharmokinetics, aka PK (more making it into the bloodstream). This is why a well packed medium grind bowl in our system always delivers the best of both worlds with the first melt on the top of the bowl and along the sides or looser packed sections if unevenly packed going at slightly lower temp and condensing faster for greater organoleptics (fancy name for mouth feel/taste) and the rest heating up a bit more for smaller droplets that don't condense as fast so go deeper for improved PK. Of course, this can all be played with simply by altering not just the base heater temp, but the apparent temp at the point of extraction via faster or slower pull rates. Technique pays the bills and can always make functional differences in what is extracted and how (where) it is delivered with all vaporizer designs I'm aware of even ones that have engineered in ways to compensate for variable flow rates resulting from pull preferences and different techniques (just perhaps less so or with different levels of predictability). This is why I've grown to favor simple analogue control (element cycles based upon thermocouple input) with high thermal mass at the heat exchange surface for temp stability (Vrip VHW and VapeXhale for instance) instead of digital control with low mass heaters --- that said if you want to go really small and portable you don't have the thermal mass option so the better the digital control and the more tuned the user to the way it adapts (or doesn't adapt) to changing flow rates the better the results will be.
 

Hippie Dickie

The Herbal Cube
Manufacturer
Jason King of Cannabible fame has always preferred to start his Vrips (vapes) with a simple packed nug in the bowl; no grinding at all. Then once it's been heated and started to dry out a bit he'll crunch it up with the poker and essentially affect a grinded higher surface area for the rest of the pulls, but without ever putting the precious nug in the grinder (a stomach wrenching waste of glands in his opinion).

that is very similar to my technique and for the same stomach wrenching reason. i use tweezers to break apart the herb and just drop it into the glass vial (bowl). but i never pack -- i want as much airflow around and through the herb as possible. i think my bowl is smaller than yours, so less volume for airflow swirl.

digital control maintains the exact temp (+/- 1°F) during the hit so the extraction is very consistent and very predictable. i get pretty thick vapor on the first pull, BUT the vape delays the ready light for 60 seconds after reaching vape temp ( which takes 25 seconds with fresh batteries). this 60 seconds allows the herb to heat soak with radiant heat from the surrounding heater coil - all heat is focused back into the vial by the heat shield. virtually no conduction going on since so little of the herb touches the walls of the glass vial. after the stir the herb sits on the bottom, so some conduction then, and definitely thicker vapor after the stir as more trichomes are exposed.

tl;dr ... no grind, very light pack, accurate temp, thick vapor. oh, and ALL GLASS.
 

stickstones

Vapor concierge
Holy shit...we're actually having a conversation about the cause of vape signatures!?!? We talk plenty about the existence of them, but it's always been a mystery to me. I just know, subjectively, that they exist. I can't explain it, but it sure as hell is there and others have confirmed it. So to get to the 'why' is super exciting! I would love to be able to customize them and make them consistent.

Effects such as turbulent verses laminar flow

Turbulence I get...it keeps the air flow at a more consistent temp. But does it contribute to the venturi effect and its pressure effects? And laminar airflow is a mystery to me. What is it and how can it be created? The MiniVap is the only vape I have that claims to use it, but so what? I can tell you that this vape has one of the strongest signatures I have come across (strong enough to make me question my sanity), and it would make sense if we can prove it creates smaller vapor droplets (see quoted post below).

I have been planning on putting a variable orifice on the inlet of my device. My thought with it was that I could run a smaller orifice to "choke down" the flow so new users will start out in more of the sweet spot.

The Versa Infinity vape had something like this. It had a 'boost' hole (or carb) that would create thicker vapor when used. I didn't totally understand this, and never had a Versa, but I attributed it to an increase in temperature. Maybe that was part of it, maybe it was a pressure difference, but users reported a difference in effect.

We've noticed a significant difference in this regard with using the honeycomb glass screens in our bowls over stainless or titanium screens due to the thermal mass difference between them. The honeycomb glass screens are so much thicker than stainless or titanium mesh so will accumulate heat creating a conductive heat field

I have a teflon core and a glass core MiniVap. The thinking was the glass would taste better. imo, the teflon tastes better. We think this is because the glass is retaining more heat and messing up the temp of the air stream. The difference in taste is that the spent taste comes sooner with the glass core. The teflon units can use a metal insert to increase thermal conductivity and create some conduction effects for those seeking that. I have always thought differences in effect had to do was a conduction vs. convection heat. But it sounds like pressure may have more to do with it (see quoted post below).

The" vape signature" is a great way of putting it --- nice work Stickstones. This is something that can be explained with the size of the vapor droplets which affects where they deposit, i.e. in the mouth/oral cavity where you'll have the most mouth feel/flavor sensation (larger droplets --- condensed faster --- cooler apparent temp) or deeper in the tracheobronchial tree (smaller droplets --- condensed slower --- higher apparent temp) where you'll get improved pharmokinetics, aka PK (more making it into the bloodstream). This is why a well packed medium grind bowl in our system always delivers the best of both worlds with the first melt on the top of the bowl and along the sides or looser packed sections if unevenly packed going at slightly lower temp and condensing faster for greater organoleptics (fancy name for mouth feel/taste) and the rest heating up a bit more for smaller droplets that don't condense as fast so go deeper for improved PK. Of course, this can all be played with simply by altering not just the base heater temp, but the apparent temp at the point of extraction via faster or slower pull rates. Technique pays the bills and can always make functional differences in what is extracted and how (where) it is delivered with all vaporizer designs I'm aware of even ones that have engineered in ways to compensate for variable flow rates resulting from pull preferences and different techniques (just perhaps less so or with different levels of predictability). This is why I've grown to favor simple analogue control (element cycles based upon thermocouple input) with high thermal mass at the heat exchange surface for temp stability (Vrip VHW and VapeXhale for instance) instead of digital control with low mass heaters --- that said if you want to go really small and portable you don't have the thermal mass option so the better the digital control and the more tuned the user to the way it adapts (or doesn't adapt) to changing flow rates the better the results will be.

Have you been able to zero in on a technique that maximizes PK? If you are right, then that seems like what we should be seeking.

This is exciting stuff! My first observance of vape signatures came when I would use a vape exclusively for a couple of weeks and then switch to a different one. The different one always hit me like a freight train and I attributed it to my system getting used to whatever the last signature was. So I have been using different vapes to help keep my tolerance in check and my consumption efficient. I know this works, but I can't explain why...my tolerance theory may be bullshit. But if we can get consistent and noticeably differing signature effects from one vape by altering our grind, filtration, draw speed, etc. the sky's the limit!

I'm particularly interested in how this pressure thing plays into all this...
 

RastaBuddhaTao

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Turbulent flow consist if swirling flow fronts that mix the air where laminar is smooth and consistant. It has been my design theory to turbilate to create sufficient mixing (I run a dispersion screen right after my heater) and then Laminar through the load to gain consistent heating. I have been toying with the idea of blocking of a selective area in the dispersion screen to reduce the center air flow rate to reduce the center flow as the center of the load will hear more than the outer diameter as laminar flow was a velocity profile to from the center to the edge of the load. All of these velocity effects increase with load chamber size so that is why I tend to run my load chambers on the smaller side. To be honest my last year was really spent developing the high level methods and I am just now getting refined enough to do some Computational Fluid Dynamics modeling and detailed temperature mapping through the load chamber. I will heck with my technician measuring pressure differences of only a few fractions of an inch of water would be challenging.

My suspicion with the carb hole is it slows down the air flow and therefore there is more time for the air stream to pick up more heat. I need to study the micro as I have not yet. So many great technologies to learn from!
 

ShadowVape

Vrip CSR
Manufacturer
Great stuff here --- the research behind nebulizers and inhalers is rather extensive as is the IP base much of which deals with how to get a consistent smaller particle size for the deeper deposition and improved PK. For pharmo application that's all you would want to focus on, but with herbal application you (I and most of us anyway) WANT some of the organoleptics (mouth feel/flavor) so you actually want to be able to have variable size droplets of the full spectrum delivered in an Ultimate Inhalation (my version anyway). This is no easy task, but I can tell you it comes down to more than just temp control (device or technique based) --- the flow form physics and the purity of convection or mix of conductive gain (partly material considerations; don't get me started on polarity) and flow rates all play a critical role. In other words, uber static temp consistency is NOT actually the pinnacle many have thought it to be IMH but experienced O with most devices anyway, but rather a very narrow window in the same extraction is the key to a balance between Flavor Country attained and optimized PK. That's apparent temp at the point of extraction to be clear when I say temp.

I'm familiar with a group that has developed a rather innovative way to test both the size of the droplets generated using laser defraction (photonic back scattering) and the location of deposition using a simulated airway with aerosols from inhalers/nebulizers --- it's possible this tech could be adapted for vapor analysis of the same, but not at the current FDA lab in a non-friendly state location. Work in progress.

Looking forward to playing with your Cube bro always nice to hear someone doing it differently --- I've planted the seed and think one of the crew is ordering one so I'll get a chance once back stateside next month.

I just tweeted your "vape signature" nomenclature Stickstones --- I'll be using that well done!
 
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