Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by tdavie, Feb 2, 2010.
I live by these principles in this thread !
I'm sorry...I didn't mean to put you on the spot and at my now advanced age I also have a bad case of CRS! LOL
Best to you, my friend.
This. I've said for such a long time that this whole temp specific vaporization of different compounds in crude extracts is not credible except in the broadest terms like you say.
Not only do most scientific studies consider these products under vacuum, but the vapes that we use are not at all giving scientifically calibrated, reliable and valid (these terms are scientific lingo relating to replicability of results and accuracy in measurement of precisely what one intends to measure - I am not using these terms in the lay sense) measurements of heat and the measurements (where measurements are actually taken at all by the vaporizer's electronics) are taken from various and often arbitrary points in the unit.
You are not doing sophisticated fractional distillation in a cannabis vaporizer (this is what we are suggesting is possible when we say that different vape temps will give you different specific compounds in the vapor). The vaporizers are just not built, nor fit for this purpose.
The physics of boiling/distillation are reasonably well understood in the scientific literature. Even in highly calibrated scenarios, we know that bumping and uneven heating of substances inside a proper lab distillation apparatus are problems that we need to control for (using boiling chips, magnetic stirrers, rotary evaporators etc).
eh, it ain't that hard. i have accurate and repeatable temperature control - measured and verified. i just need better herb to take it to the next level. but, i'm hopeful, herr trump will squish the DEA and the whole scheduled drugs thing should dissipate like a vapor cloud.
Yes, it's very rudimentary, but I have learned thru the use of a digital thermometer, pulsing technique, flavor, and effects, as to when each pen i use reaches an approximate temp, and can achieve desired and differentiated effects per given concentrate.
Oh I conceded the very broad 'hotter = sleepier, less heat = headier' differences in vape temperature. That is not at all the same as fractional distillation (where you separate the extract into various distinct fractions based on boiling point - this requires more than just an accurate heater controller in a vaporizer!). It is not giving you a dose of only the desired actives, neatly separated from the others that boil at higher temps (some of these boil in this environment before their nominal boiling point is reached for various reasons and a lot of work goes into a distillation rig setup to mitigate these factors) and cannot be regarded as even approaching proper fractional distillation in the way that many think happens when they simply dial in another temp on their vape.
To summarize: You can achieve differences in effects from the same material very broadly by changing the temp of your vape. If you want more sleepy effects, use a higher temp on your vape. If you want more heady effects, go lower. If you want to control the effects and choose the compounds you are consuming more than this, you have to look at places other than the dial on your vape for solutions.
I pretty much agree (well, absolutely agree on the fractional distillation), I would just like a better roadmap for the compounds in the plant and how we access them. Even in the simplest application, say we're creating a 'pen' for senior citizens to use, that is primarily CBD (and CBDa)... we know the target 'power band' for lack of a better metaphor of these two compounds and can tailor both the heat source and the power supply specifically for that application (longer battery life, longer atomizer life). That's just off the top of my head.
no worries man! frustrating when it happens tho, no?
I used to get paid big money for writing white papers on fairly advanced technologies, the last ten years have brought my writing to a halt... I also used to be able to read a book in a night, or day (unless they were long tomes like a friend happens to write)... also no longer Bad 'signal to noise ratio' between life and all the crap the last ten years have brought
This is useful information to seek, especially when dealing with extracts that are high THC vs high CBD (especially when we get beyond the 70th percentile of either one - most of you guys will already know that high CBD errl doesn't seem to dab right unless it is a lot hotter than you'd dab your usual oil at).
When you want to access only other minor cannabinoids and terps, you need to turn to more advanced chemistry to get meaningful quantities.
Hi @herbivore21 - I believe that our friend @AVENTUS vapes only concentrates via pens and other type devices. Would that make a difference, do you think?
Yeah, still not fractional distillation (and for those who think that's a highfalutin term, this is what is happening in those vertical 'silo' looking things at oil refineries....I'm pretty sure that that is fractional distillation also) but its perhaps a more homogeneous mix of compounds and not in a plant matrix.
I still think its overreaching to believe we can extract that precisely with today's products and devices, but wonder if the concentrate angle adds an nuances to your view.
Nope, concentrate vaporization devices simply do not have the same attention to temp control and temp measurement as a proper fractional distillation rig brother. The vape devices that we use, no matter which one, are simply not as sophisticated in these regards. The same broad hotter = sleepier, cooler = headier and tastier principle still applies with concentrate vaporization, but you are still not going to achieve much more than that with concentrate vape temp controls.
Ran across this a couple das ago....Vape Temps for Cannabis
The following is small selection of some of the toxins that are released through combustion.
Carbon monoxide and tar
Released by combustion in the form of smoke. They are carcinogenic and can cause lung related problems.
This is not thought to be a very serious toxin, and only appears in small amounts. It can cause light-headedness, nausea, sleepiness and a loss of appetite. Its boiling point is 110 °C., so there is no avoiding it.
Benzene is a carcinogen and has a boiling point of 80.1 °C.
I thought that Benzene formed at a vaporizing temperature of 200c and over?
And toluene sure as fuck is a serious toxin and can accumulate!
As has been mentioned a number of times, in all of these cannabinoid boiling point temp studies, the individual compounds are tested in isolation (a pure isolate) in a vacuum. Put it in a plant matrix with a bunch of other stuff and varying atmospheric conditions and it is my personal believe that the most you can say is low temps tend to be more heady and high temps tend to be more sedative but I don't think these tables are real useful beyond this very broad generality.
Interesting, Thanks for the breakdown! Temperature has always been something I wondered about... Personally, I vape at 193C and 196C the effects and flavour at this temperature work for me!
I also found this blog on temperatures you might what to take a look at perhaps it will help refine your table or just help others understand the best temperatures to vape at!
still new to the vape world, I am super pleased I have discovered it! I use the Mighty for my dry herb!
Sum times if my abv seems sticky I Vape it more an I feel better keep all the abv to re Vape later if you feel there's medicine left sum vape I have leave it gone an I get no clouds an,toss it away
The thin about this is that these constituents aren't present in cannabis or concentrate.... they are by products of combustion and pyrolysis. So if our temps stay low none of these compounds will be formed in the process!
This is great information! Thank you guys for this thread, it will help a lot when I present information to my engineers. Cheers!
Could it be possible to see photos or charts of colors of unvaped weed vs vaped at each temperature bracket? because i know a good way to change the effects is to change the weed after its past a different color... a friend would reload when the weed was this color while i would reload when it was this color. I know i would get high really fast using his method because he vaped large amounts at a rather low temperature 360f at most i guess (this is where pictures of vaped through buckets at each temperature would help!)
Color is not an accurate measure of vaporization state.
When all your vapor is gone. That's when you know your weed is completely spent. Some weed that's done producing active medicine has a medium or a lighter brown color, while other strains get really dark brown.
Taste and vapor production is the best way to determine IMO.
If it's not dark brown then there is still actives in there... and like @CarolKing mentioned it stops producing visible vapor... By that time in the sesh you should start to Fade some Too !
I'll stand firmly in the "color doesn't represent anything when it comes to being spent" camp. I've got some water cured Amnesia you won't get dark brown without combustion. I'll get dark green, but nothing more. The traditional cured goes brown, but not dark. I'm told from the same plant.
First bowl or two I pushed until the flavor was bad to find what appeared to be a 1/2 spent bowl, threw it in my Evo and pushed it hard and got nothing, including change of color.
I recently had some Skywalker OG that stayed a medium to a light brown and there wasn't any vapor left. I have some Gorilla Glue that gets really dark brown and it still produces vapor. It's strain or a batch dependent. I've done several test on various weed that I have bought. In the name of science.
Yes and compound into that the fact that conduction vapes tend to get darker ABV than convection ones, or at least that's the impression I have (spare hot spots of course, those can get quite dark)
But the bud color has a great impact. Yellowish and light apple green ones end up lighter brown for instance. Depends also what kind of "autumnal colors" the plant colas took when she finished (pink, brown, purple or blueish hues etc)
I have no experience with water cured ( that I know of?) but generally when I see no more vapor it is also dark brown too in my case.. I vape it high temp as possible to get all actives out... I've actually combusted twice with a vape and it was like burnt hair gross... my da-vinci og combusted on accident twice LOL... I still use the dark brown left over for ABV peanut "juice" and it works if enough quantity is used at once lol..
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