Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

Discussion in 'Vaporization Discussion' started by tdavie, Feb 2, 2010.

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  1. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I thought this was well established...yes, pure sample of the substance boiled off in pretty much a vacuum. Now, put the substance of interest in a complex plant matrix with other somewhat volatile substances at normal pressure using a normal vape (which is not a high precision scientific instrument) and my belief is that these tables are not practically useful except except in the broadest terms...i.e. lower temp = more up high and higher temp = more sedative and couch lock and the relative order of the boiling points of the cannabinoids and terpenes. But as a reference for being able to extract a specific substance at a specific temperature...I/m thinking no.

    I do not believe it is reasonable to think that we are boiling off very specific cannabinoids at these specific temperatures. I believe that reality on this subject is much more messy.
     
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  2. looney2nz

    looney2nz Research Geek, Mad Scientist

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    It's MORE than possible that the past 10 years of fun (pain, ill, sleepless) have caused a brain fart and I just forgot... but I normally pay attention better than that :( I'll bet dollars to donuts that G&W and others (if they haven't done it already) will do this, but it will likely be proprietary research that we never see.
    So it may very well come down to the collective 'us' in some fashion.
     
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  3. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    I live by these principles in this thread !
     
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  4. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry...I didn't mean to put you on the spot and at my now advanced age I also have a bad case of CRS! LOL

    Best to you, my friend.
     
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  5. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    This. I've said for such a long time that this whole temp specific vaporization of different compounds in crude extracts is not credible except in the broadest terms like you say.

    Not only do most scientific studies consider these products under vacuum, but the vapes that we use are not at all giving scientifically calibrated, reliable and valid (these terms are scientific lingo relating to replicability of results and accuracy in measurement of precisely what one intends to measure - I am not using these terms in the lay sense) measurements of heat and the measurements (where measurements are actually taken at all by the vaporizer's electronics) are taken from various and often arbitrary points in the unit.

    You are not doing sophisticated fractional distillation in a cannabis vaporizer (this is what we are suggesting is possible when we say that different vape temps will give you different specific compounds in the vapor). The vaporizers are just not built, nor fit for this purpose.

    The physics of boiling/distillation are reasonably well understood in the scientific literature. Even in highly calibrated scenarios, we know that bumping and uneven heating of substances inside a proper lab distillation apparatus are problems that we need to control for (using boiling chips, magnetic stirrers, rotary evaporators etc).
     
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  6. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    eh, it ain't that hard. i have accurate and repeatable temperature control - measured and verified. i just need better herb to take it to the next level. but, i'm hopeful, herr trump will squish the DEA and the whole scheduled drugs thing should dissipate like a vapor cloud.
     
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  7. AVENTUS

    AVENTUS Active Member

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    Yes, it's very rudimentary, but I have learned thru the use of a digital thermometer, pulsing technique, flavor, and effects, as to when each pen i use reaches an approximate temp, and can achieve desired and differentiated effects per given concentrate.
     
  8. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I conceded the very broad 'hotter = sleepier, less heat = headier' differences in vape temperature. That is not at all the same as fractional distillation (where you separate the extract into various distinct fractions based on boiling point - this requires more than just an accurate heater controller in a vaporizer!). It is not giving you a dose of only the desired actives, neatly separated from the others that boil at higher temps (some of these boil in this environment before their nominal boiling point is reached for various reasons and a lot of work goes into a distillation rig setup to mitigate these factors) and cannot be regarded as even approaching proper fractional distillation in the way that many think happens when they simply dial in another temp on their vape.

    To summarize: You can achieve differences in effects from the same material very broadly by changing the temp of your vape. If you want more sleepy effects, use a higher temp on your vape. If you want more heady effects, go lower. If you want to control the effects and choose the compounds you are consuming more than this, you have to look at places other than the dial on your vape for solutions.
     
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  9. looney2nz

    looney2nz Research Geek, Mad Scientist

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    I pretty much agree (well, absolutely agree on the fractional distillation), I would just like a better roadmap for the compounds in the plant and how we access them. Even in the simplest application, say we're creating a 'pen' for senior citizens to use, that is primarily CBD (and CBDa)... we know the target 'power band' for lack of a better metaphor of these two compounds and can tailor both the heat source and the power supply specifically for that application (longer battery life, longer atomizer life). That's just off the top of my head.

    no worries man! frustrating when it happens tho, no? :)

    I used to get paid big money for writing white papers on fairly advanced technologies, the last ten years have brought my writing to a halt... I also used to be able to read a book in a night, or day (unless they were long tomes like a friend happens to write)... also no longer :( Bad 'signal to noise ratio' between life and all the crap the last ten years have brought :(
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2016
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  10. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    This is useful information to seek, especially when dealing with extracts that are high THC vs high CBD (especially when we get beyond the 70th percentile of either one - most of you guys will already know that high CBD errl doesn't seem to dab right unless it is a lot hotter than you'd dab your usual oil at).

    When you want to access only other minor cannabinoids and terps, you need to turn to more advanced chemistry to get meaningful quantities.
     
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  11. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    Hi @herbivore21 - I believe that our friend @AVENTUS vapes only concentrates via pens and other type devices. Would that make a difference, do you think?

    Yeah, still not fractional distillation (and for those who think that's a highfalutin term, this is what is happening in those vertical 'silo' looking things at oil refineries....I'm pretty sure that that is fractional distillation also) but its perhaps a more homogeneous mix of compounds and not in a plant matrix.

    I still think its overreaching to believe we can extract that precisely with today's products and devices, but wonder if the concentrate angle adds an nuances to your view.

    Cheers brother.
     
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  12. herbivore21

    herbivore21 Well-Known Member

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    Nope, concentrate vaporization devices simply do not have the same attention to temp control and temp measurement as a proper fractional distillation rig brother. The vape devices that we use, no matter which one, are simply not as sophisticated in these regards. The same broad hotter = sleepier, cooler = headier and tastier principle still applies with concentrate vaporization, but you are still not going to achieve much more than that with concentrate vape temp controls.
     
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  13. Okla68

    Okla68 New Member

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  14. biohacker

    biohacker Fucking Combustion Since 2006

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    The following is small selection of some of the toxins that are released through combustion.

    Carbon monoxide and tar
    Released by combustion in the form of smoke. They are carcinogenic and can cause lung related problems.

    Toleuene
    This is not thought to be a very serious toxin, and only appears in small amounts. It can cause light-headedness, nausea, sleepiness and a loss of appetite. Its boiling point is 110 °C., so there is no avoiding it.

    Benzene
    Benzene is a carcinogen and has a boiling point of 80.1 °C.


    I thought that Benzene formed at a vaporizing temperature of 200c and over? :shrug:

    And toluene sure as fuck is a serious toxin and can accumulate!
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  15. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

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    As has been mentioned a number of times, in all of these cannabinoid boiling point temp studies, the individual compounds are tested in isolation (a pure isolate) in a vacuum. Put it in a plant matrix with a bunch of other stuff and varying atmospheric conditions and it is my personal believe that the most you can say is low temps tend to be more heady and high temps tend to be more sedative but I don't think these tables are real useful beyond this very broad generality.
     
  16. Vaporbabe

    Vaporbabe New Member

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    Interesting, Thanks for the breakdown! Temperature has always been something I wondered about... Personally, I vape at 193C and 196C the effects and flavour at this temperature work for me!

    I also found this blog on temperatures you might what to take a look at perhaps it will help refine your table or just help others understand the best temperatures to vape at!

    https://vapestore.co.za/vape-lifestyle /best-vapozing-temperature

    still new to the vape world, I am super pleased I have discovered it! I use the Mighty for my dry herb!
     
  17. Waldorulez

    Waldorulez Member

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    Sum times if my abv seems sticky I Vape it more an I feel better keep all the abv to re Vape later if you feel there's medicine left sum vape I have leave it gone an I get no clouds an,toss it away
     
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