Discussion in 'Plug-in Vaporizers' started by vaporbrothers, Jul 5, 2015.
I do also, Linus!
In case anyone missed the post on the VB2 thread, new research out on high temp dabs has shown that many toxic compounds are released at vaporization surface temps of 700F or higher. Since The VB2.5 operates at these higher temperatures and won't do true low-temp dabs, it is unfortunately producing toxic compounds. Be safe out there!
Here's a link to the full study on dabbing temps if anyone's interested.
The 403C data point below would be 757F...close to what @Vitolo measured his VB2 low dish temp to be. At 322C (612F) there were no detectable levels of methacrolein. 455C is 850F which is normal high operating temp for VB2. 526C is 978F which is the range I was taking my VB2.5 hits for so many months.
"The dabbing experiments in the current study produced benzene—a known carcinogen—at levels many times higher than the ambient air, the researchers noted. It also produced high levels of methacrolein, a chemical similar to acrolein, another carcinogen.
“‘The results of these studies clearly indicate that dabbing, although considered a form of vaporization, may, in fact, deliver significant amounts of toxic degradation products,’ the authors concluded. ‘The difficulty users find in controlling the nail temperature put users at risk of exposing themselves to not only methacrolein but also benzene. Additionally, the heavy focus on terpenes as additives seen as of late in the cannabis industry is of great concern due to the oxidative liability of these compounds when heated."
What's the reason for the such high price and discontinuation of this device?
High price is due to the materials used.... the warranty terms..... the way @vaporbrothers carries out his relarionship with customers, and due to the fact that the device is absolutely amazing.... there is no other true "just as powerful" concentrate converter on the market.
I believe it is Version one.... the VB2 that is discontinued.... and I think the VB2.5 is still being made.
If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me, but please direct me to where it states it is being discontinued.
What materials are used that cost $1200?
I'd pay up to say $600, but not so sure why this is $1200, when i can buy either sapphire setup for less?
I've got no doubt it is effective just from reading the reviews, but $1200 seems over priced especially if this is intended for medical users. Most people with medical issues usually aren't finically striving.
Probably should not have said discontinued, but what is the reasoning for them being out of stock for so long? I've had my eyes on this device for awhile now, and not once have i seen it in stock and ready to sale
For sure, once this product is made in a decent quantity (100 pcs at a time?) it would cost a fraction of it's current price. $1200 comes from not just the individual parts cost, but the full time engineers we have to keep on staff, hand-made components like the controller board, overhead of the R&D room, orders I have to make, warranty cost. We need at least $100k just to start this production again though.... So if you know anybody who wants to invest in the vaporizer world, just putting that out there!
We have parts to build a dozen VB2.5's except for the controller boards. Just need to get out from a mountain of other stuff to do. :/
This is a big deal, the more you read into the study. In addition to terpene additives, there are the fertilizers and treatments the plants are dosed with... We can't control that of course. As for what we can control, our materials & temperature, I'd say keep your vaporizer low if you want no exposure of this particular chemical... But beware, there are greater exposures in our everyday life. I don't mean to diminish the risk mentioned by this study, but we were smoking and setting hash on fire not too long ago... Until we have electric cars, we're inhaling raw gasoline a couple times a week. This vaporizer is meant to be a "harm reduction device" The VB2.5 shouldn't be able to achieve much over 800F though. @Lazy Lighting You've tested yours running so high with a thermocouple?
Benzene was mentioned about 10yrs back as a thing to look out for. We were watching for it and a lot of other -ene's when we sent air samples off for testing, but that was with herbs. Does anyone want to help fund a study to test dab vapor?
There's already one study and I'm sure more on the way as everyone's taking about high-temp dab toxins now.
I guess I was thinking of @Vitolo's measured temps for the VB2. I see now on the first page of this thread that the high temp of the VB 2.5 is 850F.
What the recent study revealed was that any temperature above 600F produces significant measurable levels of benzene and methacrolein (both proven carcinogens). At 600F and below you need a carb cap to reduce pressure enough for the extract to vaporize well. This works because the extract vaporizes at a much lower temperature when at low pressure. This is the magic of the enail/carb cap combo.
Even if the VB 2.5 went below 600F there's no way to effectively carb cap it and control the incoming air. This is why tasty low-temp dabs aren't really possible with a VB 2.5 type machine.
As far as what level of toxin you are comfortable inhaling deep into your lungs on a regular basis, I guess that would depend on the person. However, I was under the impression that Vapor Brothers has always prided itself on caring about its customers' health and producing healthy vaporizing products. It'd be a shame to see that commitment fall by the wayside because a current product was discovered to be unhealthy. Have you considered inventing a new and better model that will do healthy low-temp dabs?
Yes I appreciate being seen as the brand that cares about it's customers' health the most- Even without that empathy, our devices will be clean because we need to use them ourselves, selfishly. I just think our form of practical wisdom puts attention into all-around safety & health, and to not lose track of the big sources of toxins by focusing on small ones. (Not yet saying this benzene problem is "small"... I need more time with the links you sent) But here's an example: When we drew air through a vaporizer for a full day (analogous to inhaling from it all day every day) we found "measurable" amounts of everything, because the equipment was incredibly sensitive. But we also drew air from the room as a reference (before and during) and found pretty much the same. I found a few molecules of Toluene per billion molecules of air (likely from the room's painted walls). We can't avoid inhaling billionths of toxic substances every day. It becomes a concern when we inhale large amounts, like over published Minimal Risk Levels (MRLs) for chronic inhalation. By one agency's estimate, Benzene is a concern if you are inhaling more than 6 parts per billion, or 3 parts per billion chronically (day and night all year long). The dabs study found 10 nanograms (billionths) per milligram of "fire og" dabs. That doesn't mean anything to us yet... It would take another study to figure out how many parts per billion appears in the vapor. So I can't prove that this is minimal exposure yet. I see that energy.ca.gov thinks Methacrolein is a concern over .38 parts per million. (380 parts per billion) It will take time to sort this out. But if we put this kind of attention to the air we breathe every day and night, you'll find a lot more to be concerned about and it never ends.
I agree that there is more work to be done to quantify the potential dangers of these levels of benzene and methacrolein. In the meantime I'm playing it safe. We don't repeatedly inhale concentrated amounts of most environmental toxins deep into our lungs the way we do with dabs.
If Vapor Brothers goes to such lengths to remove any potential toxins from the air path of its vaporizers, why such a different attitude towards the toxins produced by high-temp dabs? If you see inhaled toxins as relatively insignificant, why such a focus on zero-toxin vaporizers?
Hello FC I want to discuss the VB2.5 with you.
I frankly believe this type of vaporizer needs more chances to become what it was meant to be- A bulletproof way to vaporize oils at home. (or in commercial establishments too) No outside surfaces more than touch-hot. To date nobody's making this. There are battery powered rigs that come close but not with the same hit.
We are thinking of teaming up with another company to consolidate resources; if we're to keep pushing VB2 development. The most creative innovator company I think is up to the task is Up Tech. What do you think about us having talks about working together on future products?
@THC SCIENTIFIC is welcome to ask questions or unload some thoughts on this thread if he chooses.
So what say you guys about us working together??
I'd say people would rather have the best performing device rather than least hazardous. Not that I'm knocking the performance. Ive seen the raving reviews. But id say other areas are needing improvement compared to the safety aspect of the device / user.
Does your company have any interest in developing something 100% convection?
May I ask which areas you think needs improvement? I have a unit that I’m playing with and trying to improve on, I have an idea what needs to be done but I would like to hear what people think needs improvement on.
I would like to say even though some people like the 800F+ dabs the unit is very much capable of 500-600F as well for the safety minded person.
- Digital / precise temperature control.
- And all glass air path. Im not into silicone. Then, I understand they have the 10mm straws, but id like to see something better for medical users. It would cause my neck more pain to use those straws compared to the relief id get from the using the device.
- Carb cap for low temp hits
- 100% convection
If I think of anymore ill edit/update my post.
When we first got our hands on it that is what we initially thought at as well, to make it an all glass air path with carb cap capabilities.
I already started on making some prototype parts for it and we shall see how it performs. I am not aware of what the straws are but I am willing to bet I will learn in a few days once I dive into this project completely.
Are you sure carb cap and convection are going together....? For me a carbcap is designed to be used with a quartz/ti/ceramic nail which is full conduction . I'm not sure it's usefull if you vape concentrâtes using full convection but maybe I'm mistaken....
I would like to test a VB2.5 one of these days although I don't know if there is even one unit in Europe!
Yeah you are correct, but if they can not create my desired 100% convection device, then the low temp conduction hits with carb cap would be next on my want list.
Hi All, we're mainly working on reducing the expense and rerouting airflow, also playing with some ideas that make it do low temp dabs better.
@MileHighHuman I agree with the @PPN comment that carb cap & 100% convection wouldn't be in the same device. But 100% convection for oils is interesting... To me, a maker of a 100% convection vaporizer for 19 years now, I've never gotten a blast of hot air to vaporize oils quickly enough to not just inhale a bunch of flavor with no punch. The oil melts and gets everywhere without evaporating. Regarding VB2.5 we're going for the same thick cloud that dabbers expect from nails. I've seen handheld convection devices that are supposed to vaporize both oil and herbs- You get the weak essence, not really a proper dab. For an insulating substance like herb, 100% convection is the best way to get the heat deep into where it needs to go. For wax/oil, which is more of a conductive substance, conduction seems to be the best way to heat them. But I'm open to keep trying air... It might need a very high temperature blast of air.
- Digital / precise temperature control. Awesome, we're on it. VB2.5 is precise but there's no room in the housing for a digital display (and it would stink like plastic)... but we're considering what we can do.
- And all glass air path. Im not into silicone. Then, I understand they have the 10mm straws, but id like to see something better for medical users. It would cause my neck more pain to use those straws compared to the relief id get from the using the device.We have an inline bubbler that makes this device totally self contained, like the straw did. If you need an all-glass way to get the vapor to you, check out the all-glass airpath pic below. It won't be flexible like the high temp silicone hose but it will get the mouthpiece closer to you.
Thanks for the feedback! Need more as we go along. Glad to have @THC SCIENTIFIC on this!
You obviously have not tried the very simple yet extremely effective E-nano log vaporizer? Or the Supreme v3? The convection dab experiences with these vapes exceed that of a rig/e-nail IMO. It's much more efficient, less waste, more control, better flavour, and IMO much healthier than conduction flash dabbing off a hot nail. It's been done for years...probably ever since the Purple Days days. Another most excellent example of an extremely tasty and potent convection dab is with the (pricey) Herbalizer using max temp 229c with the bag.
Of course a wicking material is required to prevent the melting/mess (Herbalizer uses pads) so hemp fibre is quite effective, but so is cotton and rayon. Zero waste, you can re-vape the wick and no significant reclaim.
Not necessarily, I think a hybrid heating could be most effective and efficient. You mention getting the heat deep where it needs to go. What better vape to illustrate your point than the Supreme v3/v4? Zero grinding, it obliterates unground flower it's that effective and efficient with its incredibly advanced heat exchanger.
Exactly! And/or a SMALL bowl. However even the Newvape flowerpot can effectively do convection dabs with the carb cap and its bowl is relatively large.
Thank YOU guys! I saw you both on Hash Church 2.0 on the future of vaporization with Seibo, Mark, et al and it was an absolute pleasure!!!!
Click to play YouTube Video
Testing the vb2.5.
Looking good so far.
More news to follow.
@t-dub @Vitolo of I can get our ideas past alpha testing you two will get dibs on Beta testing these new versions.
Wish there weren't so many crickets chirping in here!
Good to see this product getting some attention. My vb2 is still one of the strongest machines I have, when measuring how many times I’ve overdone it!
Excited about it, and ready!
As much as people complain about the higher starting temps of the 2.5, they are both necessary and illusory at the same time. Lower temps leave too much on the plate because of the increased effects of fractional distillation at lower delta temps whilst decarbing lessor amounts of thc.
As scary as the initial temp setting might be to the overly cautious, keep in mind that there is the Leidenfrost effect to be considered, as well as the relative heat conductivity of the heating element that will certainly effect generation of combustion by-products.
I use mine straight up, with a small silicone wand and tip, with no coughing or distress.
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