Vapor : Particle size

[Roger D]

I have the habit to observe the vapor, in every way possible. Using a strong led flashlight with a very directional beam, with a dark background, I am able to see the level of second hand vapor that is present in the air. I can see each particle of vapor (I have an excellent close up vision -myopic-) so I can judge their average size.

I have figured out that the volcano (I was on it the couple past days) gives bigger particles than the minivap, while dabbing is intermediary. It all seems very related to how the vapor feels. The finer, the smoother. The finer particles are not as irritating as the big ones are.

I seems like some vapes like the sub have a built it device to split the bigger particles into smaller ones to catch the bigger ones (atomizer) allowing huge, smooth, dry hits. I figured I'm also able to take huge hits of my MV with my honeycomb tube, dry. Seems like if you can avoid the bigger particles, it's going to be very easy on your respiratory system as long as everything is clean.

The more I look at the vapor in my room right now, it's nothing like yesterday. Night and day. It's not just a little difference. It's also moving in a different way.

If you have irritation problems, this is the way to go. My nose feels so much better

That also explains partially why the volcano produces so much visible vapor.

 

[Maine420]

Are you on a trip, by any chance???

 

[t-dub]

@Roger D great post, I have noticed the same thing. I have one strain (Leda Uno) that is consistently harsher than all of my others every year. It shows larger particle size like you have observed. It also produces oil more quickly than other medicine in my friend's Sublimator which imho isn't splitting anything. The larger particles, imo, condense first on the walls of the Sublimator, making oil, and smoothing out the hit.

 

[Roger D]

It also seems to me that using extra dry -dry to the gland- material in a small or reasonable quantity will maintain that particle size to a minimum. Notice how harsh it gets when you have over-packed or when you're pulling with all your lungs on a not so dry load to finish it.

The more you're trying to over hit it you get more and more particles that get big and bigger cause you attack the integrity of stuff you don't necessary want to inhale with the higher than necessary heat.

Moisture is something that will suck the energy that is necessary to vaporize what you want, out. Evaporating this is sucking lots of power. Maybe if you smoke you want a little moisture. Of course it's a product you don't want to get too dry too fast either particularly for long term storage what ever the use. Nobody want crumbles. Just better to have a small amount out that its dry to the bone.

 

[nopartofme]

I think this may be a big reason why I find the loose leaf Cera cart can deliver such incredibly smooth vapor without any water filtration. It has a 'UFO' mouthpiece (four 90º turns, small pathway) that may do something similar to what the Sub's atomizer is doing, without the active heat.

Perhaps the Sub's atomizer not only catches the large particles, but also to some extent re-vaporizes them using its active heat?

 

[Stu]

Perhaps the Sub's atomizer not only catches the large particles, but also to some extent re-vaporizes them using its active heat?

The temperature of the atomizer is much lower than the bowl area. In fact the temperature at the bottom tip of the atomizer is 100° F lower that the top portion. So I personally don't think that there is any re-heating (or heating of any kind) going on. The vapor and the atomizer are both cooling off as they go down the atomizer.

I don't know why a hot atomizer works better than a cold one, but that seems to be the case IME. I tend to agree with the notion that condensation is removing mostly larger particles as this coincides with my own observations of exhaled vapor and hit smoothness from the Sub vs. other vaporizers.

 

[JoeKickass]

People on the Cloud EVO thread are noticing very good effects from a small amount of herb, and the EVO doesn't have any kind of atomizer to affect particle size.

But they made changes that should theoretically make the air a more even temperature. Maybe the large metal mass of the sub lends itself to evenly heated air?

 

[Stu]

People on the Cloud EVO thread are noticing very good effects from a small amount of herb, and the EVO doesn't have any kind of atomizer to affect particle size.

But they made changes that should theoretically make the air a more even temperature. Maybe the large metal mass of the sub lends itself to evenly heated air?

I've tested the heated atomizer with the Cloud and the hits are smoothed out some in my initial limited testing. Hell, I even used the atomizer with the HI for shits and giggles. Results have been consistently smooth so far.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Cotton in the vapor path seems to smooth the hits out for me. I'd like to think the smaller particles can flow freely through the cotton while the bigger particles stick to the cotton. I'd also like to think I know what I'm actually talking about... but I'm pretty high right now.

 

[sal69]

For the volcano i switched to using these instead of the standard screens: http://www.storz-bickel.com/shop_eur/product_info.php/info/p28_SOLID-VALVE-Fine-Screen-Set.html

I did this to stop small stuff from falling into the volcano but it works in both ways. Also if you let the volcano bag sit for 1-2 mins after filling it most particles will stick to the inside of the balloon by then.

 

[Unconnected]

This thread inspired me to blaze a bowl in my cera, i have had little need for the portablity recently so its been a little while since i used it. Dam, the thing is smooth, i must agree, you get a lot of condensation inside the cera airpath, clearly its the larger bits.

I tried a cig filter in my vape tube last night, was interesting, didnt really make a difference. im more just interested in 100% preventing any bits of bud getting in my throat when i vape.

 

[notmyrealUSERname]

For the volcano i switched to using these instead of the standard screens: http://www.storz-bickel.com/shop_eur/product_info.php/info/p28_SOLID-VALVE-Fine-Screen-Set.html

I did this to stop small stuff from falling into the volcano but it works in both ways. Also if you let the volcano bag sit for 1-2 mins after filling it most particles will stick to the inside of the balloon by then.

I think your on to something with the screens and they're relationship to the size of particle.

Back in the day people used to put screens in their hmk swings to smooth out the hit, it also had the benefit of producing more claim to build up on the glass.

Sublimator owners generally use a fine screen below the screen that holds the vaporizables in order to keep the sublimate as clean as possible.

Also a dg fritter disk tube/bubbler seems to smooth out the hit quite a bit as well. A fritter disk is basically a screen made out of glass.


Seems to me that having a fine screen in the vapor path does filter out larger particles and smooth out the hit.

 

[Buildozer]

I have always suspected the Larger Particles are mostly the Higher Temperature Cannabinoids??just based on the way the high feels w/o them. I think that the filter does something similar to the Sub, but IMO (the ways I have tried to use) the filter, it filters out too much for my taste.. and if I use too little then the filter gets full to quickly.

I'm thinking maybe I should try to use a little bit more hemp fiber, a little closer to the heat.. So hopefully it can vape some off at the same time as it's catching some more, to give the more Full Effects I look for, while (hopefully) getting the hit to smooth out a good amount? This way I can use a little more filter (but not too restricting) to smooth out the hits, and have a little more filter to store particles.. Also, if it's close enough to the heat.. It will vape off a little bit each hit so that it frees up more space for more particles that are coming w/ the next hit.

It makes me wonder if it has to do w/ Brutish extraction temps that make large particles out of any cannabinoids?? Or if Higher Temp Cannabinoids are always larger particles because of the heat needed to free them(specifically)?? Also when they're re-vaped off of the hemp filter, are they still larger particles or much smaller now?? I don't mind my vapor being a little harsh, so I don't usually filter it, other than w/ water.

Either way, I just ran out of herb so I can't try anything ATM..
Since I was posting (speculating) while not vaped, I ended up having to cut a lot of fragmented thoughts out of this post. You're Welcome LOL. The first draft was totally a ramble of only incomplete, tangent thoughts LOL. This ^^ is the best I can do right now

Good Topic @Roger D

 

[Anonymouse]

It also seems to me that using extra dry -dry to the gland- material in a small or reasonable quantity will maintain that particle size to a minimum. Notice how harsh it gets when you have over-packed or when you're pulling with all your lungs on a not so dry load to finish it.

The harshness in overpacked or damp loads results from the intense hot-spotting that occurs under such conditions (either from the uneven flow when overpacked or the localised cooling occuring in still-wet areas as higher-flow zones dry out). Pyrolysis (an exothermic process of chemical degradation which differs from full combustion in that oxygen is not consumed) occurs at these hot spots, and being exothermic, can lead to localised thermal runaway, and thus tiny points of plant material (or, more likely, the graphitic matrix left by local pyrolysis) can be raised very close to, or even over, combustion point. Under these conditions and a hard pull (and thus a lot of negative pressure) these spots will actually start to liberate tiny smoke particles, which are the source of the harshness. Such a session, even through water, can give you a dry cough for days even if you're a regular vaper.

Oh yeah, this is also how cherries can form in vape bowls even when the hot air stream itself never actually reaches combustion temps. The oxidation that is producing smoke particles is also an exothermic process (but much more so), so the tiny pieces of plant substrate giving up smoke particles can actually heat up to higher temperatures than the air passing over them. If this continues long enough, enough extra energy will have been dumped into the local environment to bring that tiny hot spot up to ignition point, at which point the superheated, pyrolysed, ragged shreds of plant cellulose sitting in a super hot, continually refreshed oxygen supply are only too eager to burst into cherry and start spreading into the cooler areas of the bowl. :c

Cotton in the vapor path seems to smooth the hits out for me. I'd like to think the smaller particles can flow freely through the cotton while the bigger particles stick to the cotton. I'd also like to think I know what I'm actually talking about... but I'm pretty high right now.

Yeah, this works really well. A properly set up cotton (or hemp, but cotton is just as good) filter will catch all the larger particles, some of the smaller ones, and all the the particulate, while having neglible effect on draw resistance. Plus you can take out the filter and vape it when it gets saturated enough to noticably affect flow (which can take months), and that shit is going to give you the biggest clouds you've ever seen, in that the resulting sodden cotton is basically a perfect substrate for holding oil with maximal surface area (and thus rapid vaping potential), but at this point contains many times more oil than the same volume of even the best herb you ever had.

There will be some "sticking" as you say, but it's mainly rejecting larger particles mechanically, that is by packing the fibres tight enough that there's no complete paths through the wad that have minimal openings large enough to allow the larger particles to pass, so they are trapped and the smaller ones pulled through by gas flow. Essentially you want to pack the wad as tight as you can without noticing any significant draw resistance, and it'll do the rest for the next several months.

Another thing cotton will do is stop that the ugly brown hydrated-oil gunge patterns that form up the walls of a piece, often after just a few good hits. The walls will still collect resin, but much more slowly, and in a more even "haze" pattern without any water droplet patterns. Seriously, they can look "clean" for tens upon tens of good hits. Most of the shit that was getting stuck on the walls is now stuck in the filter instead.

One final note: Once you have a few loads through it the filter will become quite sticky to the touch. Do not touch or mess with it unless you really have to at this point, because squashing or compressing it even slightly will close up pathways through the filter, and now that the fibres are sticky they will stay closed, increasing draw resistance noticably. If you nudge a sticky filter accidentally you might find draw difficulty increases enough that you'll need to replace it, and ideally you don't want to replace it until it becomes sodden on its own as that shit is just mind-erasingly good when you finally get to enjoy it. If you don't interfere with the filter the resin will hold all the fibres in place just fine, and it will last a surprisingly long time.

It makes me wonder if it has to do w/ Brutish extraction temps that make large particles out of any cannabinoids??

Particle size is determined by the conditions under which condensation occurs, not the conditions under which the original evapouration occured. A slower cool will result in smaller, more evenly-sized, more spherical particles, while flash condensation (such as in expansion chambers) produces a broad mix of sizes and shapes.

Also, resin is much stickier the warmer it is, so collects more readily on surfaces while the vapour/air stream is hot (or the surfaces are hot, but still below the evapouration point of oil). This why the Sub atomiser is more effective when warm. There are a bunch of reasons why it's more likely to pick up larger particles than smaller ones, but this post is turning into too much of a science lesson as is.

 

[stickstones]

@Anonymouse

my biggest problem is separating the filter into smaller balls (for using in separate sessions) without compressing it. You got a method?

 

[Seren]

Are you on a trip, by any chance???

My thought exactly!! Seriously though, this isn't something I've really pondered on before - but it's really interesting stuff! So today I shall mostly be observing vapour particle size - all in the name of science of course!

 

[Anonymouse]

@Anonymouse

my biggest problem is separating the filter into smaller balls (for using in separate sessions) without compressing it. You got a method?

Aye, there's the rub. Generally, the more you mess with it the less "immediate" its vapour release is due to caking up and losing surface area. I don't "harvest" the filter until it's full, and then I divide it up as I use it by teasing out tiny tufts with tweezers (channeling Dr Seuss?), and packing an elbow screen, ELB, stem, bullet, whatever with those tufts a bit at a time until it's full. Doesn't preserve the full complexity of the existing channel structure, but at least creates a lot of new channels of its own, and gives relatively uniform load density, which is important for even extraction. In practise I find it works fine, but it's not as impressive as a filter you've handled as minimally as possible, gram for gram.

An alternative might be freezing it with dry ice then "sawing" the thing into bricks with a razor blade. A normal freezer might be cold enough to brittle up and de-stickify the resin, but you'd have water condensation issues. Dry ice is not just significantly colder than a domestic freezer, it will also let you cut up the frozen filter in a tray or tub under a "dry" gaseous CO2 layer that'll displace the atmospheric air and all the pesky water vapour it contains (note, you don't need so much CO2 that it completely obscures the tray contents and you can't see what you're cutting. ). I'd try it myself but I get impatient when I have a filter ready to divide up and getting hold of dry ice here is a hassle. :/

 

[420GanjX]

This thead is super intriguing to say the least.
I also have to wonder if roger was trippin at the time lol

Great ideas though.
The filtering:condensing effect the sub has sounds very interesting, if love to try a cotton filter on my SSV to reduce the harshness
& keep my glass cleaner but not sure if the cotton I have is completely safe/fine

 

[Roger D]

Yeah I would not try out of something like that personally, there could be traces of glue or it could be bleached, chemically treated, anything, you can't know. I wanted to try this but first I want to have the proper material. That sounds easy to just stuff a little bit in the adapter once you got some. Hemp fiber sounds the best, we need a good source.

 

[Anonymouse]

Yeah I would not try out of something like that personally, there could be traces of glue or it could be bleached, chemically treated, anything, you can't know. I wanted to try this but first I want to have the proper material. That sounds easy to just stuff a little bit in the adapter once you got some. Hemp fiber sounds the best, we need a good source.

A properly-located filter isn't subjected to any particularly high temperatures, so such concerns aren't actually warranted. These products are designed to be as safe, non-toxic and chemically inert as possible, given the nature of their use; rubbed directly on skin, shoved inside us, in open wounds, etc, or handle being dipped in really strong solvents like acetone (nail polish remover), iso, etc. Also bleaching is actually good, for our application; it means that the remaining filter substrate is basically just cellulose, which is very inert at sub-combustion temps. Plus, there's no functional difference between cotton and hemp; the hemp just costs a lot more and will be harder to obtain. If you like the idea of "keeping it in the family", then fair enough, but don't expect any tangible gains or noticable improvements over cotton.

I use plain old cotton buds from the chemist/supermarket/whatever, and cheap ones at that. Cotton tips will work too, but are about the most expensive way to buy cotton for this purpose, and a hassle to unwind and fluff. They generally don't use glue, and are just wound on the shaft directly, and held in place by friction alone.

Cotton make-up removal pads also work well, and you can cut (and optionally stack) sheets of them to perfecly cover screens, etc, but sometimes they are perfumed so check the label carefully. Most aren't, though, especially the cheaper ones. I suspect if I could find a hole punch with a large enough diameter, make-up removal pads would make for excellent lids for Pinnacle bullets?

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations Buildozer,
Salutations Anonymouse,

It makes me wonder if it has to do w/ Brutish extraction temps... Or if Higher Temp Cannabinoids are always larger particles... Also when they're re-vaped... are they still larger particles or much smaller now??

The harshness in overpacked or damp loads results from the intense hot-spotting... ...these spots will actually start to liberate tiny smoke particles... ...even through water... Particle size is determined by the conditions under which condensation occurs, not the conditions under which the original evapouration occured. A slower cool will result in smaller, more evenly-sized, more spherical particles, while flash condensation (such as in expansion chambers) produces a broad mix of sizes and shapes.

In your opinions could there be some parallel to be made with size in colloidal silver as a function of electrical current density (e.g. too much current per donor electrode surface leads to a gross CS solution)?...

 

[Buildozer]

Salutations Buildozer,
Salutations Anonymouse,

In your opinions could there be some parallel to be made with size in colloidal silver as a function of electrical current density (e.g. too much current per donor electrode surface leads to a gross CS solution)?...

Hey @Egzoset..
Unfortunately I don't have any Idea what you mean.. I don't speak that language. Hahaha
I think @Anonymouse would be the best bet.

 

[Anonymouse]

In your opinions could there be some parallel to be made with size in colloidal silver as a function of electrical current density (e.g. too much current per donor electrode surface leads to a gross CS solution)?...

I'm not seeing any direct parallel. We're talking about thermal runaway led by exothermic chemical decomposition, and you seem to be talking about electrolysis. I'm a bit confused as true colloidal silver is a colloid (surprising!) of elemental silver particulate. Is there some knock off made with silver salts instead? Or is an additional reduction involved?

Actually, a better question would be "Why are you making colloidal silver?". It demonstrates no measurable effectiveness against any known condition in any formal study, but the side-effects resulting from chronic use are very real and very noticable. Seriously, how many blue politicians do we need before people get the idea? :c

 

[Egzoset]

Salutations Anonymouse,

I'm not seeing any direct parallel.

That's all i need.

...side-effects resulting from chronic use are very real and very noticable.

Sorry but you won't get replies from me on this, only questions. For example, what type(s) of CS generator(s) were involved in argyria cases? Though i'm afraid this one would sound pretty much like topic steering so lets just drop it right there!

 

[Snappo]

@Anonymouse

my biggest problem is separating the filter into smaller balls (for using in separate sessions) without compressing it. You got a method?

Pull apart a fresh cotton ball into perfectly-sized pieces, then re-form them all together into your filter. When caked, the separate pieces can be teased apart with say, 2 toothpicks, tweezers, or some-such method. Pieces shouldn't be as compressed as would be with squishing fingers.