Vaping through water: Legionella

[Groucho]

Hi,
I'm pretty new to vaping, but I'm already loving it.
Smoked last 15 years, and I had more and more headaches when combusting, so I thought why not try vaping. It was definitely the right decision: No more headaches! And I'm feeling better everyday. And it gives me the best and clearest effects. I never had such a nice feeling when combusting.

I began vaping 1 month ago. It was really harsh when I started, it hurted my lungs and throat. So I tried connecting my old bong. Was a lot smoother, but still not the perfect device. I finally found some perfect glass pieces through FC. Thanks a lot

Next step was using warm water. Definitely the best way to vape. I warm up my water to a certain temperature range.

A week ago, the doorbell rang. It was some guy from a water testing company. They don't inspect all apartments in the house, only a few. I wasn't informed, because the water should be checked at my neighbors apartment, who was not at home. So the water testing guy came to me. My water was tested for legionella. In germany it is obligatory for the landlord to check the water for legionella every 3 years. I'll also ask my landlord for the test results next days (I guess it will take some time).

I couldn't find anything about legionella on FC. It's directly related to vaping through water, especially when using warm water: You could get Legionnaires disease when you breathe in vapor containing legionella.

If you don't know anything about legionella, here is some info to start.

From this site:
"Certain groups of people are more likely to become seriously ill when infected with Legionella:
- Individuals who are 50 years of age or older
- Smokers
- People with chronic lung disease
- Individuals with weakened immune systems"

Maybe I'm a bit too anxious, but I was smoking last 15 years and had lung problems from it, so I guess my lungs are also more vulnerable to Legionnaires disease. Because of that, I only use distilled water. I change it before each session.

I couldn't find anything about legionella here yet, so I thought I should post this.
Btw, great community. Thanks for all the FC related info I got from you...

 

[Joel W.]

Hotter water helps prevent Legionella.

"A water temperature of 120°F does not kill the bacteria; a minimum temperature of 140°F is required at which Legionella dies in 32 minutes. Hence it is recommended that the water heater be set at a temperature of 140°F. The Legionella disinfection range is 158 – 176 °F."

If you have kids, You might want to add mixing valves to keep everyone from getting scalded. Or just keep vaping through distilled water.

 

[howie105]

Run a search for illnesses that can be transmitted by water supplies and be very afraid. Chances are if they are only spot checking every three years then they aren’t all that concerned about it. However only you know what your tolerance for risk is and how it makes you feel so do what you have to to feel better.

 

[Groucho]

Hotter water helps prevent Legionella.

A water temperature of 120°F does not kill the bacteria; a minimum temperature of 140°F is required at which Legionella dies in 32 minutes. Hence it is recommended that the water heater be set at a temperature of 140°F. The Legionella disinfection range is 158 – 176 °F.

If you have kids, You might want to add mixing valves to keep everyone from getting scalded. Or just keep vaping through distilled water.

Thanks for the info. The house I live in only has one main heater, so I can't change the temperature in my apartment. Distilled water doesn't cost much here, so I just keep on using it. It's also better to keep the glass clean.

Run a search for illnesses that can be transmitted by water supplies and be very afraid. Chances are if they are only spot checking every three years then they aren’t all that concerned about it. However only you know what your tolerance for risk is and how it makes you feel so do what you have to to feel better.

Yeah. From what I read, a lot of users here use warm water directly from the tap. I'll keep on avoiding tap water. I try to always have some distilled water at home, and when not, I just use boiled water.

 

[t-dub]

First: Just because water comes out of the tap does NOT mean its suitable for drinking. The water is conditioned by your provider for going through and maintaining the cleanliness of the water system, not your health. Water is conditioned by basic filtration and adding chemicals to it so it will usually contain a trace, or more, of chlorine, probably about 2 ppm, and if you are unlucky some fluoride depending on where you live. There may be more bad things in your water depending on your water source and how its treated. I NEVER drink tap water and we have some of the best in the country here in Oregon, no fluoride and only a trace of chlorine, but IMHO a quality water filter is a must have for healthy living.

Second: Even if you use distilled water in your glass stuff will still get into it and start to grow, especially if you are using cranberry extract to keep your glass clean of resin. A little citric acid mixed with your water is a natural way to help keep bacteria down. Change your water often and disinfect your glass when you clean it.

Bad things your tap water might contain:

• Viruses
• Pathogenic bacteria, cysts and parasites
• Trihalomethanes
• Radiologicals
  
• Inorganic minerals
• Volatile organic compounds (VOCs)
• Heavy metals (lead, mercury, aluminum, cadmium, chromium) and rust, silt and sediments
• Pharmaceutical residues

Get a quality water filter . . .

 

[Groucho]

First: Just because water comes out of the tap does NOT mean its suitable for drinking. The water is conditioned by your provider for going through and maintaining the cleanliness of the water system, not your health. Water is conditioned by basic filtration and adding chemicals to it so it will usually contain a trace, or more, of chlorine, probably about 2 ppm, and if you are unlucky some fluoride depending on where you live. There may be more bad things in your water depending on your water source and how its treated. I NEVER drink tap water and we have some of the best in the country here in Oregon, no fluoride and only a trace of chlorine, but IMHO a quality water filter is a must have for healthy living.

We have very good water here in our countryside in Germany. I (and all other people living here) also drink it without filtration. No chlorine and less than 0.06 mg/l fluoride. All other measured values are also very good. It's just the hot water system that could make trouble. Normally, you only inhale very few of it when showering. But when vaping through warm water, much more gets inhaled. And that is the problem with legionella. You can get ill from it when inhaling, not from drinking. I was just wondering that no one ever mentioned it here.

Second: Even if you use distilled water in your glass stuff will still get into it and start to grow, especially if you are using cranberry extract to keep your glass clean of resin. A little citric acid mixed with your water is a natural way to help keep bacteria down. Change your water often and disinfect your glass when you clean it.

I use fresh distilled water for every session and I clean my glass daily (only takes 2 minutes with hot water and citric acid). Also ordered some NACE (should arrive next week), but my glass/water is already always perfectly clean, so I'm not sure if I'm going to use it. I prefer the look of clear instead of pink water and also like to only inhale pure distilled water

Bad things your tap water might contain:

• Viruses
• Pathogenic bacteria, cysts and parasites
• Trihalomethanes
• Radiologicals
  
• Inorganic minerals
• Volatile organic compounds (VOCs)
• Heavy metals (lead, mercury, aluminum, cadmium, chromium) and rust, silt and sediments
• Pharmaceutical residues

The yearly published water test values from my water provider are always very good. But additionally to that, I now also ordered a water test, which I have to send to fraunhofer.

 

[t-dub]

You can get ill from it when inhaling, not from drinking.

I understand this but a quality water filter would remove it if it was present.

It's just the hot water system that could make trouble.

If your hot water system is breeding stuff like this its time for a new water heater.

 

[Groucho]

I understand this but a quality water filter would remove it if it was present.

Yes, you're totally right. I guess the easiest ways to bypass the problem are:
Using filtered, distilled or boiled water.

If your hot water system is breeding stuff like this its time for a new water heater.

I hope my water doesn't contain legionella. I'll wait for the test results...

 

[herbivore21]

I've long been conscious of this and I always use boiled water (but think i probably will move on to distilled!).

Using water straight from the tap is gross, I can taste the difference. Definitely clean that tap water up guys.

 

[NorVape]

Tap water here taste better than most bottled water I buy abroad, but I too am weary of anything but cold tapwater.

 

[HyzerSoze]

@t-dub - what type of filter are you talking about? Most typical household water filters aren't fine enough to take out bacteria and viruses...

 

[t-dub]

@t-dub - what type of filter are you talking about? Most typical household water filters aren't fine enough to take out bacteria and viruses...

I use several different filters in different parts of my home so it depends. One is also a water ionizer, its called a Jupiter Melody, and uses the AlkaViva filter. Expensive but nice to be able to drink alkaline water. Please ignore the green arrows on the photo that was for another thread. Even the fridge filter does a good job. The Black Berkey filter elements are very nice and are capable of purifying stagnant pond water. The point is you have all kinds of options these days on water filtration depending on your needs and budget. Please note that removing fluoride takes a special filter as it is difficult to remove. I don't have it in my water so I don't go to the extra expense of purchasing filters for it.

From the Berkey website: http://www.berkeyfilters.com/berkey-answers/performance/filtration-specifications/

Many water filters on the market may claim to be a purifier but do not meet the performance specifications required for this classification. In order to be classified as a water purifier, a water treatment device must remove at least 99.9999% of pathogenic bacteria (known as a log 6 reduction in the water treatment industry) and reduce viruses by 99.99% (log 4 reduction). Our Berkey water filter systems can be classified as a water purifier because the elements actually remove 99.9999999% of pathogenic bacteria (log 9 reduction) and 99.999% of viruses which greatly exceeds the standards.

The Black Berkey filters have been tested by several EPA-accredited laboratories including the Department of Toxicology and Environmental Science at Louisiana University, Spectrum Labs, and the University of Phoenix. This extensive testing confirmed that the Black Berkey Purification Elements far exceed EPA and ANSI/NSF (Std. 53) protocol.

Please note the Berkey filters also reduce pharmaceuticals by 99.5% Including: Erythromycin USP, Progestrone, Naproxen Sodium, Carbamazepine, Caffeine, Acetaminofen, Sulfamethoxazole, Triclosan, BPA

See link above for latest filter specifications as the label I scanned is old.

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[NorVape]

Mannnnn, I'm lucky to be from a place with clean water!

Our tap water is celebrities favourite water. Voss water is not even from Voss hahah

 

[t-dub]

Mannnnn, I'm lucky to be from a place with clean water!

My drinking water is also some of the best in the country however I still filter it. Why? Because it has a trace of chlorine added to condition it and get it through the pipes to my tap and I don't want to drink that. Thats why the fridge filter works well in a lot of situations. The Berkey is for emergencies since it takes no electricity, is gravity fed, and can handle water directly from the river I live next to. The water ionizer is for making electronically restructured water that has a high PH or is alkaline which is something nature just can't do.

 

[HyzerSoze]

@t-dub - thanks for your response, those are some serious purifiers! I don't quite share your level of concern on the topic, so I'm not sure I'd spring for those for daily use. $100 for a pair of filters is quite a bit when you have aquifer water on tap and don't loose sleep over trace chlorine or fluoride.

Few more questions, if you don't mind -
At what level is trace chlorine removed (filter/microfilter/purifier)?
Is there something between the Berkey filters and just a typical Brita pitcher that you would recommend?

Also, has anyone tried UV lights to keep their glass clean? I would imagine a regular cleaning schedule and time under medical-grade UV lights could do the trick (if the glass were generally clean and you were just trying to kill viruses/bacteria).

 

[t-dub]

I don't quite share your level of concern on the topic, so I'm not sure I'd spring for those for daily use.

I reserve the Berkey mainly for emergencies. The Black Berkey elements filter 3,000 gallons of water each so they last a long time. I use mainly the water ionizer and my refrigerator filter since our water here is excellent. Please see this link for a lab analysis from Berkey for complete information on removal rates: http://www.berkeyfilters.com/Test_results.pdf

As far as chlorine goes it removes 99.9% of chloramines and free chlorine and 99.6% of chloride. Chloramines are a more recent form of chlorination that uses ammonia so its bad. Chloride is different than chlorine by an electron just like any halide. Chlorine is reduced at the filter level although you will have to look at a lab analysis or the product info to find out how much. As far as an in between unit goes there are many to choose from I'm sure. I use a Britta when traveling. There is ZeroWater that says they reduce TDS to zero but I am suspect on their claims. Also, you don't want to remove dissolved minerals from your water as your body needs them. If you do you should add them back in.

UV light would sanitize glass, I just use One Step, or ISO, on my glass as a finishing rinse to sanitize since PBW isn't a sanitizer.

 

[bigtvapes]

Bacteria is everywhere. Nothing you can do to stop it. In any kind of clean tap water you're going to find some pretty harmful stuff. The thing is healthy people fight off bacteria. We're exposed to horrific bacteria ever hour of every day in various forms. When healthy, our bodies simply fight these bacteria off because they're no where near in large enough numbers to hurt us.

I'm NOT professing to be an expert on this subject... but just floating around google I haven't seen a single scientific article that definitively links legionella to water pipe use. In fact I haven't seen one single piece of scientific evidence supporting the idea. I'm finding nothing really significant or relevant at all. If anything it's a very remote risk but I'm not seeing any documented cases of legionnaire's disease acquired from bong use. Again, I'm not exactly writing a dissertation on the subject I just spent a few minutes on google with it. But still... it seems far fetched to me. That specific bacteria grows in warm water over a long time. I think you'd have to have a pretty gnarly bong to give yourself legionaries disease.

I HAVE seen some scientific evidence linking water pipe use to increased chance of lung infection in general. I wouldn't say it's definitive or anything but common sense would tell me if you're inhaling anything through water you're going to inhale water particles. And bacteria will travel in those particles.

So how to protect yourself? Just clean your shit often and change out your water Bacteria doesn't like to grow in clean stuff. It loves to grow in dirty stuff. So change your water often. Use distilled water if you're extra concerned but if you're THAT concerned you should talk to a doctor about it. But healthy people have zero to fear using water conditioned vapor with clean equipment. In my mildly educated opinion, I think the benefits of water pipe use vs dry vapor and especially vs smoking... those benefits FAR outweigh any risk of infection.

Immunosuppressed people are a different story, they get sicker much easier but you really shouldn't be vaping at all if you're in that condition. IMO you should find a different delivery system but that's up to you and your doctor. Also if you have diagnosed lung or airway disease the same considerations are in place.

 

[little maggie]

Immunosuppressed people are a different story, they get sicker much easier but you really shouldn't be vaping at all if you're in that condition. IMO you should find a different delivery system but that's up to you and your doctor. Also if you have diagnosed lung or airway disease the same considerations are in place.

One reason I vape is because, being immunosuppressed, I can't use anti inflammatories. Not ready to go to a dispensary across the river to try something else. So far, I haven't had any problems with getting sick. The water where I live is very pure and I still filter with a table-top.[/QUOTE]

 

[Joel W.]

Each year, between 8,000 and 18,000 people are hospitalized with Legionnaires' disease in the U.S. However, many infections are not diagnosed or reported, so this number may be higher. More illness is usually found in the summer and early fall, but it can happen any time of year.

If it is in your water system, it is probably also coming from the source of the water (well or city water) so if you cant turn up your water heater up hot enough to prevent it? then, maybe talk to the building manager about a scheduled maintenance program. Replacing the tanks is costly compared to raising the temp a little or even a lot for an hour or so.

That said, I think hot tubs, pools, and especially air conditioners with clogged drains and low tech fan based swamp coolers are a much bigger risk than hot water tanks as the water is usually more stagnant and that is where it thrives best..

 

[RUDE BOY]

Immunosuppressed people are a different story, they get sicker much easier but you really shouldn't be vaping at all if you're in that condition.

I agree I may get sicker easier But would also likely be dead if I didn't Vape(or smoke) but I'm only a long term AIDS survivor so what do I know.

...


@bigtvapes just givin' ya a little shit but do pretty much totally agree with your post above excluding what I quoted. Clean equipment and fresh clean water(from a safe source) seems a no brainer but you know not everyone feels it's needed or even think about it, seen some bongs I wouldn't touch nevermind take a hit off of.

 

[CarolKing]

Use white vinegar to disinfect your glass. We all use ISO that will disinfect. Use clean water and a clean bubbler and you will be set. Boiling water for a certain period of time will disinfect water.

Get your water tested regularly even if you have to pay for a kit yourself. In some areas the drinking water is unsafe and the people don't even know it. They continue to drink the water and eventually get sick, sometimes that doesn't happen right away.

 

[bigtvapes]

One reason I vape is because, being immunosuppressed, I can't use anti inflammatories. Not ready to go to a dispensary across the river to try something else. So far, I haven't had any problems with getting sick. The water where I live is very pure and I still filter with a table-top.

Ok but vapor is an airway irritant. The evidence suggests that the effects increase over time but I havent seen anything definite proving that. So if youre using cannabis for inflammation youre kind of "robbing peter to pay paul" so to speak. Inviting inflammation in the lungs to reduce inflammation elsewhere. Id look into butter or better yet oil in your situation. But if you and your doctor are happy... so be it. Like I said a doctor will always beat out what some dope on the net says.

@RUDE BOY I probably mispoke to an extent when I said "you shouldnt be vaping at all" but within the context I felt it was pretty clear I meant that point to refer to a risk of infection. If I wasnt clear and offended you, I do sincerely apologize. From a medical standpoint, vaping IS a relatively risky method of delivery. Especially with water pipes. There are far cleaner methods of delivery, namely ingestion. That would be what your typical immunosuppressed patient is prescribed in my very limited experience understand medical marijuana. But again im not a doctor or anything so if you are happy and healthy I never meant to insinuate you aren't doing the right things. No offense, but I can care less what anyone does really. The point I was trying to make is that a healthy person should have nothing to fear using clean bongs. Immunosuppressed might have concerns but thats your business. Have at it if thats how you wanna take your meds. No offense intended upon you or another patient who felt what I said was insensitive.

In medicine, they are always "robbing peter to pay paul" to an extent. A typical pain killer causes significant damage to the liver and/or kidneys but its a risk they take in medicine to treat whats in front of the patient now. So I never meant to attempt to tell people what to do or how to medicate. Thats a doctor's job.

 

[NorVape]

This place is so civil and respectful I sometimes I forget I'm on the Internet

 

[His_Highness]

When I think back to my combustion/bong days....we hardly ever cleaned those bongs. The nasty smelling, nasty looking ooze that we would lovingly call bong water didn't get changed until it became a solid of sorts . I even remember drying that goop and smoking it when times got tough. I guess I just figured if that shit didn't hurt me and swimming in the Passaic River in NJ when it was the 3rd most polluted waterway in the US didn't hurt me then the clear stuff coming from the tap didn't have a shot.

Now that I'm older, (Wiser is debatable), I have filtered water coming from the taps and the fridge and the filters must be ANSI Standards 42 and 53 and not just 42. My understanding is 42 will get rid of chlorine so the water tastes and smells fine but won't filter out some of the contaminants that don't cause water to smell or taste bad.

Sometimes I wonder how any of us lived this long without all this info.....

 

[CarolKing]

I've seen some pretty nasty bong water in my time. I've passed on some invitations to partake, in a polite way, "I'm driving" is always a good excuse. I found this, I don't drink alcohol.

Dirty Bong Water #2 recipe

Read more: Dirty Bong Water #2 recipehttp://www.drinksmixer.com/drink3186.html#ixzz3lBX0Ecfh